gibingus

rather than hijack the If you were the US President, how would you handle Terrorism? thread:

a lot of folks contend that israel -and US support of israel- is the root of the problem with global terrorism.

you can be president of any country you want or not, but how would you play the israel card in your plan for middle east and world peace?

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if everyone is thinking alike, chances are no one is thinking.

Strange Famous

The Israeli question cannot be understood without reference to the holocaust, and the particular effect on the Jewish people of the overall lack of co-ordinated resistance to Nazi atrocities.

Any any sane person could only encourage Jewish and Muslim people to understand the closeness of their religions.. and to understand that what differentiates them is meaningless compared to what unites them.

The ordinary people only want peace... it is the zealots and the madman who blow up school buses to incite rage and war.... this element must be removed, socially, from society.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

powerclown

I disagree that it all boils down to israel. And I won't even call you anti-semitic if you disagree with me

I'll say it again:
*cut and pasted from above thread*

I would argue that Israel is the perfect excuse necessary for every dictatorship in the m.e. to 1) foment hate, and thereby remaining popular with their people to stay in power and retain their domes, 2) keep their societies barbaric, broken and dysfuntional. (except for bahrain, which hosts a formula one race now )

The only thing the dictators in the m.e. hate more than israel is each other, which explains the continued existence of 5 million israels against 200 million arabs surrounding them on all sides. I see israel as god's micro-experiment where he is testing the resilience of a tiny, civilized, intelligent society pitted against the barbarian hordes. Im a big fan of the underdog, and a big fan of israel.

I just read today that the emir of kuwait is staying in the same hospital as clinton, and for the same reason. Everyone over there loves to hate the corrupt, infidel US, but whenever they're in need of the state of the art, they hop on the fastest plane bound for america.

Mojo_PeiPei

I like Israel, I like them a lot. They're scrappy and resilient. I would always stand behind Israel as an ally in the Middle East, thats not to say I would not work to help out the Palestinians.

People in the Mid East need a reality check, Israel is here to stay, and if they feel so inclined they can try and do something about it again, and get the snot kicked out of them for the 5+ time in 50 odd years.

I would hope the Palestinians would one day wise up and realize just how big of a douche Arafat is, and at the same time realize that groups like Hamas, Al Aqsa, and Hezbollah are not a means to help their situation. Also I would suggest that they turn their attention to how their "neighbor's" and "Arab brothers" and "Muslim brothers" are pimping the fuck out of them and their horrible plight.

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To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

Lebell

Isreal has been an opportunist, using the Arab's unreasoning hatred against them. Had the Arabs not attacked in 67', they would be enjoying the borders that they pine for today.

If they had accepted the Oslo accords, they would have a Palestinian state today.

I have no illusion that Isreal wants all of it's historical land, but it is the Arabs who are giving it to them on a silver platter by continuing trying to destroy them.

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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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Stare At The Sun

I feel, as most know, that Israel has no real claim to their land, and that they don't deserve it. They are the most hated country in the middle east, and we support them because our government is controled and our populace is influenced to a massive degree by the jews. We are force feed this holocaust rhetoric every year, and are made to pity the jews for something that is vastly exaggerated.

Believe what you want, I know I will.

seretogis

If our populace is influenced and government controlled by "the Jews" then why do I hear such an overwhelming amount of anti-Israel sentiment in the major media networks? Your tinfoil-hat Jew-luminati conspiracy theory doesn't seem to hold up very well.

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seretogis - sieg heil
perfect little dream the kind that hurts the most, forgot how it feels well almost
no one to blame always the same, open my eyes wake up in flames

Lebell

Careful, folks.

Just a friendly, "we don't wan no trouble" kinda warning

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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seretogis

I just wanted to say "Jew-luminati."

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seretogis - sieg heil
perfect little dream the kind that hurts the most, forgot how it feels well almost
no one to blame always the same, open my eyes wake up in flames

tecoyah

After several statement made by yourself, in seperate threads, basically lamenting your racist beliefs, I am going to do something I have never done before.......use the ignore option.
I can only hope it is effective.
Believe what you want, I know I will.

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Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

powerclown

Jews have been there for over 2000 years, and their ancestors' origins in the area can be traced back 2000 more years. Due to their relatively small numbers, they were constantly invaded, occupied, enslaved or displaced, first by the romans, seljuk turks, christians (crusades), egyptians (who, ironically, were tolerant of their presence), then ottoman turks. What the brits did after ww2 was send the jews back to where they had been for the past 4000 years. The modern arab cry of "occupation!" is a phobic, premeditated political response to the fact that after centuries, their historical presence in the region was formally acknowleded.

Mojo_PeiPei

Not to mention that the hebs had also legally been acquiring land from 1879 on in mass quantities.

__________________
To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

hammer4all

It must be your imagination. There are 3 Palestinians who die for every Israeli, but from our media coverage you'd never know without looking it up yourself. Whether it's reporting deaths to using vague terminology the U.S. media coverage of the middle east has been abysmal. How many people here have even seen a map before, showing all the illegal Israeli settlements? I know I hadn't before looking it up. Is it any wonder with all those dots that the Palestinians could possibly be a little mad about the Israeli occupation?

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/

MSD

The problem with this argument is that a person can no longer legitimately criticize Israel without being called Anti-Semitic or a Neo-Nazi. At the same time, the actions of a few Islamic terrorists have shifted public opinion to the point that people tend to look down on all Arabic countries and people. On the other hand, there are some in our country who believe in a Jewish Conspiracy and hate anyone who is Jewish or associated with Israel.

What needs to happen is that people need to stop blindly supporting one side or the other and call for the election of two moderate leaders who will work together to bring peace to a region that is so important to so many religions and cultural groups. Extremists on both sides should be denounced worldwide.

thesupermikey

(For the record, I am Jewish, and there are members of my family who did not make it though the Holocaust.)

I cannot back Israel in its current form. Putting away the historical context in which Israel was formed, Israel has systematically violated the human rights of the people living in occupied Palestine Israel fought a war and won and therefore may have a clam the West Bank and Gaza. This does not give them a right to contain Palestinians to camps in were living conditions poor. The cycle of violence in Israel could be slowed if both side truly came together and made a good faith effort in finding peace. One cannot take seriously promising of peace while the Israeli government builds a wall though neighborhoods, houses, and streets. The wall undermines family and economic structure because it cordons of common groups.

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98MustGT

Suppose -
We stopped supporting Israel and the rest of the ME was plunged into war. Would we stand on the sidelines?

Mojo_PeiPei

Respectively now and in the past territories such as west bank and gaza are respectably under control of Egypt and Jordan (despite the occupation). Those countries don't help the Palestinians, Palestinians living in refugee camps in Jordan are not granted citizenship and widely shunned. Israel is more welcoming then the Arab fraternity, I find that horribly fucked up.

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To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

Rekna

I've said it before and i'll say it again. When it even looks like impartiality may be impossible one should abstain. If a judge is on a case and there is a teneous connection between him and the defendent a new judge is assigned (ideally). We should abstain from UN resolutions (we all know they never do much anyways). Isreal is perfectly capable of defending it's self. And if a large arab army attacked isreal you can bet the UN would step in.

Bookman

Your response is what makes this topic hands off. The comment was not racist...it may be the opposite of your belief but it is not racist.

Bookman

My reply is that an ally is an ally yet this situation needs more scrutinization because there is a heavy Israeli influence in American Politics. US taxdollars..taxation without representation, our money is funding a situation which borders ethnic cleansing.

gibingus

that's just plain hilarious. you are a master wordsmith.

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if everyone is thinking alike, chances are no one is thinking.

Pacifier

Please elaborate what you menat with "vastly exaggrated"

__________________
"It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously. I also cannot imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere. Science has been charged with undermining morality, but the charge is unjust. A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death
— Albert Einstein

gibingus

we're kind of off track here, i didn't start this thread to be a an israel-love-it-or-hate-it semite-antisemite slugfest. if someone else wants that, a poll might be more appropriate. i'm looking for constructive and -as arttv would appreciate- pragmatic plans and proposals for dealing with a very contentious issue in judeo-christian-muslim relations that has challenged geopolitical stability for millenia.

here's a suggestion to try to move the discussion around:

what if we started with jeruselam and made it into a completely separate international city-state?

we don't have to follow the precendents of the allied occupation of berlin after WWII, but it does provide some conceptual framework for consideration. we might also look to the example of the creation of the district of columbia when the united states first transitioned from confederacy to federacy and there was a great deal of concern of which state would house the seat of central government.

since jerusalem is a major holy city for each religion, perhaps a global district under the jurisdiction of the united nations is a possible compromise. i would propose a triumvirate for civic governance, but i would suspect that the islamic leg would be wary of doubleteaming by the judeo and christian legs... perhaps having a secular authority to balance that would help.

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if everyone is thinking alike, chances are no one is thinking.

aKula

The USA's support of Israel is definetly a fueler of anti-US sentiment in the middle east, a more even handed approach to the issue would surely lower hatred. As mentioned above, moderation is the key. The issue isn't really the cause of international terrorism, what caused this phenomenon was failed states after the cold war, as well as a terrorist response to their enemy on the enemies playing field, a global one (after the stationing of US troops in Saudi Arabia). International terrorism no longer has a national objective, rather an international one, due to the internationalisation of our current uni-polar world, it is directed at the one pole.
I think that a two state solution isn't liable in the current situation of distrust and the unwillingness to make concessions. A single state solution is also not feasible, although i think less concessions would have to be made then.

roachboy

first thing that would have to happen is for sharon to get booted from power.
he has been even better than the folk who stage manage the bushimage have been in exploiting peoples fear to his own political ends. and it seems obvious that so long as sharon is in power, nothing will happen that will reduce hostility.

btw, i do not think arafat a prize either.

the wall should be dismantled.

the settlements should be dismantled and the programs of encouraging them stopped.

i think the israelis have no long-run choice but to concede right of return.

i would support gibingus' suggestion concerning the status of jerusalem, but no-one will like it.

the only way around or out of this is for the palestinian population to be accorded dignity, which under present conditions is stripped from them every day. if there is to be a seperate state, it would have to be economically viable--something which the israelis seem to oppose. the outline of such a state, floated in the period around the oslo accords, did not seem to meet this criterion.

i have no illusions about the viability of these ideas---but they would seem to me to function as a baseline set of conditions for anything approaching a resolution of these conflicts.

aside:
diverting consideration of this onto religious grounds gets nowhere quick. it has been functional for both sides to revert to racist understandings of the other--each serves to obscure what is happening on the ground, to make any resolution even more difficult to reach. it is easier to kill people that you distance via such categories. it is the basic discourse of legitimating massacre. on both sides.

as to the gambit of trying to conflate critique of the policies of the israeli government to questioning the legitimacy of the state itself to antisemitism---the linkage is always possible, and is a problem that you have to be aware of. particularly given that sliding from one term to the next seems to not be a particular problem for many people.

the seperation of terms is also possible. it is perfectly possible and reasonable to criticize, and harshly, the repressive (often barbaric) policies of the sharon government, for example, without any of the other terms coming into play at all.
i am inclined to be far more critical of the israeli state in generating and maintaining conflict with the palestinans than the other way around simply because israel is a regional superpower--the sharon "solution" to the conflict seems to be to brutalize the palestinians in the hopes of making almost any coherent state building impossible.

i also think that any coherent understanding of this conflict requires that you jettison the discourse of "terrorism". but every politics that tries to look at conditions in real life and not content itself with war fantasies has to reject the discourse of "terrorism" as well.

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it make you sick.

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honestchipmunk

I think the UN is very important to the resolution of this issue. From a symbolic standpoint, I think only blue-hat soldiers should be deployed in the area to drive home the point that this is not only the US getting involved, but the entire world has a stake in the constant fighting in that area.

I also slightly question the validity of the Israeli's claim to that particular bit of land. Calling back to roots from that long ago, aren't we supporting a dangerous idea? Does that mean that we owe Native Americans land? What empire constitutes original ownership? Our whole concept of the political break up of the world is based on conquerors and the conquored. Since when do people get to call long ago "dibs" on land?

But that is beside the point, Israel exists now and the problem needs to be delt with through the United Nations.

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Dragonlich

Sharon was elected by the Israeli people, so nobody will boot him from power. Besides (as you state yourself), Arafat and the entire Palestinian leadership should be booted too.

Why? If the wall runs along the original, UN-backed lines, I have no problems with a wall; if it keeps the Israelis from being blown up, it's their right to build a wall.

Agreed, but not realistic in some cases - the settlers are typically extremists, who don't need any encouragement.

I strongly disagree. Thanks to a lot of people claiming they're "Palestinians" (when they were really workers coming from the surrounding countries), and a lot of births since then, Israel has no choice but to oppose the right of return. If all the "Palestinians" return, there won't be an Israel left. It'll turn into yet another Muslim state very quickly (simply demographics - Palestinians have way more kids than the Jews).

If noone likes it, it's not going to happen.

The only way out of this is for the Muslims in the m.e. to accept Israel for what it is, and stop their endless anti-Jewish rhetoric. The people there are force-fed this crap from birth, and will never be content as long as there's a single Jew left in Israel. Giving "dignity" to the Palestinians won't change that at all.

You (along with many others) seem to be under the impression that Israel is the source of the problem, and the poor Palestinians the victims. In reality, both sides are to blame, and both sides are victims. Israel shouldn't be forced to give up anything as long as the Palestinians and the surrounding states won't accept Israel's right to excist in the first place. If you ignore that last bit, and let Israel concede everything, the end result will be the destruction of Israel, and the murder of most of the Jews living there.

IMO, the Muslims in the m.e. can't stand the idea that a small group of infidels has been able to survive their attempts to drive them out. They're angry that someone has dared to "invade" their precious little desert, and want their land (pride/honor) back at all costs. That's pretty much the same reason many Muslims/Arabs resent the American presence in Iraq - fellow Muslims have been beaten by infidels, who are now in control of part of *their* land - the positive sides are ignored for the sake of Muslim pride.

Pacifier

Yes, but Sharon is a warmonger, he has no intrest in deescalation. With him in Power no peace will be possible.

No, the wall runs over palestinians grounds, thats why the UN criticised it. You cannot build a wall on your neighbors ground.

__________________
"It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously. I also cannot imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere. Science has been charged with undermining morality, but the charge is unjust. A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death
— Albert Einstein

Dragonlich

The same can be said about Arafat and the Palestinian leaders. So why focus on Sharon. He may be a hawk, but he's not going to be around forever. Arafat has been in power for a longer time than Sharon, so I'd say he is more responsible for this mess than Sharon is.

Hence my statement that the wall should be allowed if it ran along the UN-mandated frontier. The current wall doesn't help the peace process one bit, but it stops terror attacks. And it's not like the wall is the *cause* of the Arab hatred of Israel, now is it? It's just another excuse to attack Israel.

--------------

You know, perhaps Israel should give the conquered lands back to the original owners: Jordan, Lebanon, Syria and Egypt. Let's see how the Palestinians would like *that* scenario...

Pacifier

Because he is the leader of a constitutional state while the Palestinian leaders are terrorists or former terrorists.
There has to be a difference between them.

oh ok, i misunderstood you.

__________________
"It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously. I also cannot imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere. Science has been charged with undermining morality, but the charge is unjust. A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death
— Albert Einstein

tecoyah

I think we would be wise to strategically lower our support of Isreal, while investing in a plan to promote Palestinian statehood. It would seem The United States is supporting the existance of Isreal with loan guarantees and Arms. This has created much of the discomfort the Arab World feels towards us. It is my opinion that ANY state that cannot become self sufficient after half a century of existance , is fundumentally flawed.
We have allowed ourselves to Adopt an entire population of non- U.S. citizens, and support them for decades, for what amounts to colonial reasoning. If there is to be change in this section of the world, it will by definition, have to come from the Isreali government. This is unlikely while they have the military, and financial backing of the United States, as they have no need to negotiate while the worlds' Superpower has their collective backs.
It would also be of benefit to the peace process if the American President actually decided to pay attention to the conflict.....and decide on a policy that has some chance of creating a fair, and just reconciliation between the parties involved. Perhaps more attention will be focused here....after the election.....one would hope.

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Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

Dragonlich

But Tecoyah, there *won't be* any reconciliation between the two parties, simply because one of the parties (Arabs) teaches their children that the other party is subhuman, while the other (Israelis) won't exactly trust people that hate them...

From a strategic stantpoint, Israel is surrounded by enemies. Given the history of the Jewish people there, it's not very realistic to expect them to lower their weapons without some security arrangements with their neighbors...

tecoyah

Agreed.....for the most part.

Isreal is indeed in the midst of an unfriendly (to them) section of the world. My idea was not for them to disarm, but rather for us to stop arming them, and forgo the favoritism we as a country portray towards Isreal. It is my opinion that the blatant support we show, towards a State which is in regularly dismissive, if not aggressive, towards its neighbors, has a great effect on our standing in this part of the world.
I feel that if the United States were to attempt to take the Arab nations, and those working towards such seriously, we might gain a bit of respect in the region. Respect is the Key to some level of stability in the Middle East. Without mutual respect there will be no worthwhile diplomacy. Without Diplomacy there will be no communication. Without communication there can be no resolution.

On a worthwhile Tangent......My main reason for wishing Bush out of office has little to do with individual policies. Rather it is because of the General lack of diplomacy our country has used in the last four years. Diplomacy is THE most powerful tool a superpower has at its disposal, due to economic, as well as military muscle. I find it disturbing that this administration has abritrarily ignored the options negotiation can open up, and has decided instead to use destruction as the primary motivator.
Colin Powell could have had an enormous impact in several of the "Mistakes" this term has created, but was not allowed to do so, WHY?

The issue of lowering weapons, is certainly not on the table at this point. It must however, be there eventually for peace to prevail. Without some level of discourse this simply cannot happen, and I find this quite frustrating.

__________________
Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

Strange Famous

so where, after the holocaust, were the European Jews to go?

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Glava

To Israel of course!

SLM3

There was a larger Jewish population in New York than Palestine. Maybe they should have gone there?


SLM3

Strange Famous

And this would solve the Jewish problem, you think?

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Glava

The last person who spoke of the "Jewish problem" was....well you know, I don't want to invoke Godwin's Law.

Strange Famous

come, come now... that wasnt the last person.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

hannukah harry

great, just what we need... more new york jews.

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shabbat shalom, mother fucker! - the hebrew hammer