powerclown

Quite a difference indeed. Terrorism is a tactic of the ignorant and the weak.

1-2) You answered #2 with #1.
3) The majority of the Palestinians are from Jordan, who have the land to take back their own refugees, but they don't want them back. Maybe they know something the rest of us don't.
4) Again you answered your own question. Suicide bombings ARE despicable and the lowest form of warfare, and cowardly too. What is honorable is to take a stand and protect your citizens from these despicable tactics.
5) See #3.

roachboy

dragon: on your response to no. 2

so far i had tried to avoid this...on what basis is a religious text a legal admissable claim to property or land? i do not see how the claim could possibly work, shifting from one genre to another (religious text to secular law)--that is why i repeatedly argued that this does not matter, that the state of israel is a fact, a political reality, the backstory of which does not make the slightest difference.

on your response to no. 3: this sounds dangerously like the kinds of arguments made to justify apartheid, which often referred to the "lost race of white people" to explain a prior claim--often this "lost race of white people" are invoked in colonial explanations of great zimbabwe. do a search. you presuppose the legitimacy of a prior claim (see above) and then deploy a series of further arguments that appear bizarre unless you accept the premise of your argument.
i do not accept your premise.
could you try to explain your position another way?
is there another way?

on no. 4: the counter to this should be obvious to you. it was at the center of the discussion we had earlier. it seems still like an arbitrary distinction you make--it is ok for the idf to bulldoze houses, for settlers to attempt to starve out palestinians by taking land on control spots for water supplies, (for example--and these are only examples, the list coudl go on and on) both of which can be seen as acts of war on an entire people--but not ok to respond in kind? this is a two-sided conflict--it makes no sense to act as though it is otherwise. if the state is condoning explicitly or looking the other way and therebyt indirectly condoning brutality, then why should it surprise you that, as the situation gets more desperate, you see desperate horrible acts in response.

this is NOT to say that it is ok to blow up civilians.
but it is to say that you will get precisely nowhere by pretending that these acts are undertaken without motive.

and what is the point of putting palestinians in scare quotes?

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

roachboy

powerclown:
these kinds of actions are undertaken by people who see no alternative.
they are undertaken by people jammed into a position of weakness, of powerlessness in which their dignity is stripped from them.

they are the result of occupation.

you reap what you sow.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

powerclown

The alternative for yourself, your children and the future of your society is to acknowledge and respect the existence of your neighbor. Until this happens, at the highest levels of Palestinian leadership, the Palestineans will indeed continue to reap what they sow. And its tragic I agree.

Sun Tzu

What aspect do you want to examine? The 1922 census shows what the picture was. The immigration caps set by the British were agreed to by both the incoming Jews and the ARABS. Many arabs even sold land to the newly arrived immigrants. There wasnt a problem until the Zionists began acting on their Manifest Destiny vision. I dont consider myself an expert, so Im open to any area you feel I should look at. What aspect of Arabic history are you referring?

I actually would rather not go back that far in history; mainly because since Canaan, the land has changed hands so many times- ancient history really shows it doesnt hold bonds to anyone. The other reason much of the history is of for debate because the Bible is being used as a source for histrical documentation. Like I state many times; history is up for individual interpretation. So anything I state is how- I've interpretated from my own research and experience. I will state that interpretation is free of any bias. If you knew me on a personal level you might wonder why I have the views I do. Certainly many of my peers wonder why I "stick up" for the Palestinians; 10 years I certainly did not. Its because I strive for the truth in situations, and I believe I've found it.

The reason I would even bring up history that far back; is if someone is going to mention that area as "belonging" to the Israelis; I'm going to assume they are referring to their religious call to it. IMO ithat doesnt hold weight- there are thousands of Jewish people that feel the very same.

I'm glad you mentioned the UN; its a point Ive brought up often. By stating that point is means it holds some weight with you. The issue here; is the very same entity that granted Israel its statehood also granted the Palestinians the areas known as the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

IMO its not that partitioning of land that sparked the wars (the ongoing war) its the Zionists (not Jewish) refusal to recognize the West Bank and Gaza strip doesnt belong to them. It may be worth while to investigate this period of time. Its not hard to discover "terrorism" has been going on long before the last few decades, and didnt start with the Palestinians.

I understand my facts dont change the fact Israel has been under constant attack- Ive never promoted that stance. Its sometimes difficult for me to understand how some miss the "whys".

In agreeance by what you state referencing the UN; I think Israel has every right to exsist in peace and security; but so does the indigenous population. The settlements need to come out of the West Bank and Gaza strip completely.

__________________
To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit.- Stephen Hawking

roachboy

powerclown: the only thing i agree with is that the situation is indeed tragic. every other word you wrote can and should be applied to the israeli leadership and (especially) the settlers.
every word.

again, you do indeed reap what you sow.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Sun Tzu

Do you agree or disagree that its OK for settlers already there and those to come to annex land that belongs to the Palestinians on a daily basis? Any land owners resistence as being viewed as an act of terrorism?

__________________
To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit.- Stephen Hawking

Bookman

No you should read the questions again.
How are the bloodlines matched to those people of Biblical times. A very much avoided and infuriating question it is, yet very valid. I wonder if Jews were indeed promised the land (the basic claim which Israel uses as justification for the settlements) and furthermore how can Sharon and his people prove they are indeed descendants of those people?

powerclown

I completely disagree that its the Palestinean's land. This area of the world has been contested, invaded, conquered and immigrated to and from for 1000s of years. The jews have been linked to the land since the time of the writing of the old testament (religiously) and since the time of historically recorded jewish communities in the area that is today Israel, which goes back at least 4,000 years. I just don't buy the argument that the Israelis came out of nowhere to displace the Palestinians as if they were hostile invaders from Mars; its historically and intellectually dishonest. What the whole middle east is so pissed off about is that after all this time, Israel was formally recognized as a viable, successful and productive democracy.

Bookman-
The lineage between yesterday and today is one of religion, namely Judaism. It is the common link amongst peoples from places all over the world, and to which they see Israel as their religious homeland.

Bookman

If you are right we are ALL screwed.

charlesesl

By your logic, the americans should give their land back to the indians and move back to euroup. The fact is the old kingdom of Israel has been dead for over 1000 years. The plastinians who live there have been considered indiginous people. Using some 4000 year old book and holocost to justify the genocide of indiginous habitants is highlyimmoral.

__________________
It did not really matter what we expected from life, but rather what life expected from us.
Dr. Viktor E. Frankl

Sun Tzu

And for those that dont consider the Bible an accurate source of historical documentation? If one doesnt believe that man dame from a pile of dust and woman from one of his ribs they have less credence? How about the hundreds of thousands of Jewish people that interpret that there is no state of Israel until the Mesiah comes? Its no wonder the story of Post Canaan starts with "God" stating the Hebrews will rule all nations and Arabs resemble the "wild ass" of man. A "story" such as that would seem to give alot of leeway wouldnt it. Whether one is reading the Torah, the Talmud, or the Odessy by Homer it doesnt change the facts.


http://domino.un.org/unispal.nsf/cf0...2561150071fdb0!OpenDocument

http://domino.un.org/unispal.nsf/cf0...256ddb007bb36f!OpenDocument

Just a couple of sources of hard data. The reason I would provide a UN source is because may still give it credability being it was the UN that recognized Israelis statehood. Most Zionists Ive debated with finds records and historical document created and kept by Zionists will be more accurate.

My answer to that is go to UN address made by the founding Zionists to the entire assembly. You may find them insightful.

You may also research into how the Old Testament came about; then again the right to the land of Canaan starts to disolve as one digs a little deeper. The Jews didnt just come out of nowhere try looking into Asir.

You are right about Jews living in Palestine for hundreds of years; they did so as a minority in peace with Arabs. It wasnt until Zionism ariived that the trouble began.

__________________
To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit.- Stephen Hawking

hannukah harry

why is that?


you seem okay with land taken by force by one group (americans) but not by another (isreal, the whole if you want or just the gaza strip and west bank). why the hypocrasy?

__________________
shabbat shalom, mother fucker! - the hebrew hammer

roachboy

who at this point actually approves of the doctrine of manifest destiny? it was a cover for genocide....i dont see the difference between that and visions of the "greater israel" if that vision requires and legitimate the continued social and economic pulverization of the palestinians.

if the alternative version of zionism, the one that imagined coexistence, was still operative (dominant would be better still) maybe this whole scenario would be otherwise than it is....

since the thread started off in an "as-if" mode, perhaps within it one is permitted to dream....

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

98MustGT

I have a great idea....
The Middle East could be one big democracy with states. They could have a state of Israel and Jordan and Syria etc. There would be a bill of rights and elections and everyone could prosper in peace WITHOUT KILLING EACH OTHER!

Then I woke up.