This "flip flop" BS is annoying. - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Stompy · 09-08-2004, 09:06 AM

This very trendy and cliche term is often used by people who are against Kerry to describe his position on issues or his strength as a solid leader (or lack thereof).

To get to the point - this is a perfect example of the pot calling the kettle black. You can't expect to make a cogent statement or argument against a candidate using that particular quality if the candidate YOU SUPPORT shares it as well.

A lot of Bush supporters use this. We all know Bush has changed his mind on many occasions, so really, if you feel Kerry isn't a strong leader because of "flip flopping", then how could you feel the opposite about Bush? You can't be against one candidate doing it but for the other.

Are people uninformed, do they just choose not to believe it, or are there valid excuses and reasons for their candidate's change-of-heart? It just doesn't make any sense and gets very annoying when trying to hold an actual intelligent discussion with someone and they bust out with that tactic as if it's supposed to give them some advantage in what they're trying to explain.

Am I mistaken? Can someone name one president who, in either their office as president, senator, or otherwise, never changed their mind on an issue?

[edited for clarification]

the_marq · 09-08-2004, 09:11 AM

Yes I would prefer a leader who makes a decision and then blindly sticks to it come hell or high water (or new information).

I don't support either candidate, as a Canadian I can't. But logically I would not eliminate someone because they changed their mind.

Superbelt · 09-08-2004, 09:26 AM

I hate the flip-flop bullshit so much.

And it makes me feel so childish. Either you are so stupid that you actually believe that meme, or you use it anyway (fully knowing it's a bullshit charge) because it gets under the skin of the other side and detracts from real issues.

It makes me think none of us ever made it past kindergarden.

Johnny: can I play with that ball?

Bully: NO!

Johnny: Please?

Bully: I heard you eat poop!

Johnny: No I don't!

Bully: I heard you did. You're a poop eater!

Johnny: What? I don't eat poop!

Bully: Poop eater, poop eater!

Johnny: Shut up! Why are you lying about me?

Bully: Poop eater, poop eater!

(Other classmates): Poop eater, poop eater!

chorus of half the playground: Poop eater, Poop eater! Johnny eats poop!

*Johnny cries.

/so does Jesus.

Ustwo · 09-08-2004, 09:27 AM

I was for this post before I was against it.

Changing your mind is fine. Changing your mind day by day based on what sounds good to who you are talking to is pandering, not leadership.

Kadath · 09-08-2004, 09:28 AM

Stompy -- I think William Henry Harrison probably didn't have time to change his mind -- except about the wisdom of not wearing a jacket during his inaugaration.

In all seriousness, Shakran has an excellent list of Bush's opinion shifts in this thread. Flip-flop, most liberal, didn't deserve his medals, these are all wonderful themes parroted by the talking heads. People are stupid and easily convinced by the ten word answer, by the sound bite, by propaganda.

OpieCunningham · 09-08-2004, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stompy

they just choose not to believe it

That's it right there. Yes.

Partially out of the best intentions to blindly support their candidate and partially out of the intention to annoy you and your candidate.

seretogis · 09-08-2004, 12:13 PM

As much as you may detest the "flip flop bullshit" it is one of Kerry's weaknesses and will be mentioned time and time again because it is a serious issue. It is easy to tell where Bush stands on issues -- he makes a decision and sticks to it. He has yet to flip-flop on Iraq or Afghanistan. He has yet to flip-flop on gay marriage (as inappropriate as the issue is for Federal government to be involved in) or gun control. Undecided voters should be very wary of voting for Kerry because he seemingly stands for nothing -- he clearly has no moral or value system which he uses to make policy decisions since he changes his mind so often. For someone that values freedom above all else (neither candidate in this case), it is easy to stick to your guns on social issues. For someone who doesn't know what to think or what the people want, such decisions would be more difficult.

Sargeman · 09-08-2004, 12:26 PM

It's funny how when posting something that you want to make your point across, some posters refer to those that disagree with them or their views as stupid, mindless, morons, sheep, etc. etc. But if you agree with them then you are thinking for yourself and not listening to what others tell you.

tecoyah · 09-08-2004, 12:44 PM

What is the difference between a Flip Flop....and an outright Lie?
Serious Question.

Bush Lies (in my opinion)....Kerry Flip Flops

They are both less than the best of the best.

Strange Famous · 09-08-2004, 12:57 PM

its one of those irregular verbs isnt it?

I am flexible, he is indecisive.

Stompy · 09-08-2004, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seretogis

As much as you may detest the "flip flop bullshit" it is one of Kerry's weaknesses and will be mentioned time and time again because it is a serious issue. It is easy to tell where Bush stands on issues -- he makes a decision and sticks to it. He has yet to flip-flop on Iraq or Afghanistan. He has yet to flip-flop on gay marriage (as inappropriate as the issue is for Federal government to be involved in) or gun control. Undecided voters should be very wary of voting for Kerry because he seemingly stands for nothing -- he clearly has no moral or value system which he uses to make policy decisions since he changes his mind so often. For someone that values freedom above all else (neither candidate in this case), it is easy to stick to your guns on social issues. For someone who doesn't know what to think or what the people want, such decisions would be more difficult.

So you're saying the points mentioned in this post are lies or items taken out of context?

Gay marriage and Iraq are mentioned.

Anyway, I'm not really debating Kerry vs Bush, but instead pointing out that it's just pointless to call him a flip flopper when Bush does the same.

Quote:

Changing your mind is fine. Changing your mind day by day based on what sounds good to who you are talking to is pandering, not leadership.

That sounds more like an extreme exaggeration than something that actually happened. Did he word the same thing differently? Did he give a different perspective on a problem that could have many solutions? Did anyone actually take into account the entire context of what he was saying, or did they take a snippet of something he said and give a broad accusation? I really find it hard to believe that someone would actually change their stance on issues day-by-day.

Jonsgirl · 09-08-2004, 01:10 PM

I don't think I'd call him a 'flip-flopper;' no more than I would any other polititian in history. It's just something Bush is using to pick at him.

I remember reading about this somewhere....what was it?......Hrmm.....Oh yeah, they called it Propaganda. Not Truth.

shakran · 09-08-2004, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stompy

So you're saying the points mentioned in this post are lies or items taken out of context?

Gay marriage and Iraq are mentioned.

You beat me to it, but what he said brings up another interesting point. This isn't a bash of republicans - it's more of a "how the HELL do they do that?"

Reagan was called the Teflon President because nothing, and I mean NOTHING, no matter how damning, ever stuck to him. W is apparently Teflon Redux because the same story is happening. He flip flops left and right, yet none of his supporters see it. It seems, to this guy anyway, that people see what W is saying RIGHT NOW, and somehow delete from their memories what he said yesterday, replacing it with a copy of what he's saying right now.

It's truly amazing.

jcookc6 · 09-08-2004, 05:49 PM

I will give you an example of the way John Kerry is and why he is called a flip flopper. (The following is not true, just an example to get the point across.)
Sen Kerry goes to an arsonist's convention, he tells them how much he loves to watch fires. Then 2 days later he goes to a firefighters convention and tells firemen what a great job they are doing, and anyone who sets fires on purpose should be prosecuted.
I know that is a lousy example, but he will take any stand to make the people he is talking to happy.

shakran · 09-08-2004, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jcookc6

I will give you an example of the way John Kerry is and why he is called a flip flopper. (The following is not true, just an example to get the point across.)
Sen Kerry goes to an arsonist's convention, he tells them how much he loves to watch fires. Then 2 days later he goes to a firefighters convention and tells firemen what a great job they are doing, and anyone who sets fires on purpose should be prosecuted.
I know that is a lousy example, but he will take any stand to make the people he is talking to happy.

What exactly does this add to the debate? It's not true, you admit it's not true, Kerry never did it, and will never do it, so why use up a whole post writing about it?

You don't see those of us on the other side giving out examples about Bush being tough on crime, then running out and raping people do you?

If you want to accuse Kerry of something, then do it with actual facts rather than fiction.

filtherton · 09-08-2004, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jcookc6

I will give you an example of the way John Kerry is and why he is called a flip flopper. (The following is not true, just an example to get the point across.)
Sen Kerry goes to an arsonist's convention, he tells them how much he loves to watch fires. Then 2 days later he goes to a firefighters convention and tells firemen what a great job they are doing, and anyone who sets fires on purpose should be prosecuted.
I know that is a lousy example, but he will take any stand to make the people he is talking to happy.

It is difficult to take seriously an argument about the way reality is when you have to invent a situation rather than recall a fact.

Try an actual, reality based example, then, for extra credit, follow it up with sound logic destroying the idea that bush is a flip-flopper too.

whocarz · 09-08-2004, 11:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Superbelt

I hate the flip-flop bullshit so much.

And it makes me feel so childish. Either you are so stupid that you actually believe that meme, or you use it anyway (fully knowing it's a bullshit charge) because it gets under the skin of the other side and detracts from real issues.

It makes me think none of us ever made it past kindergarden.

Johnny: can I play with that ball?

Bully: NO!

Johnny: Please?

Bully: I heard you eat poop!

Johnny: No I don't!

Bully: I heard you did. You're a poop eater!

Johnny: What? I don't eat poop!

Bully: Poop eater, poop eater!

Johnny: Shut up! Why are you lying about me?

Bully: Poop eater, poop eater!

(Other classmates): Poop eater, poop eater!

chorus of half the playground: Poop eater, Poop eater! Johnny eats poop!

*Johnny cries.

/so does Jesus.

I'm too tired to read all the posts, but this in particular caught my eye. The bit at the end made me laugh out loud.

Zeld2.0 · 09-09-2004, 12:10 AM

I have a bigger problem with people who think politicians will actually adhere or should adhere to a set goal.

Flexibility is big in learning to adapt to changing environments. Politics is an ever-changing environment.

Bush could've said "Hey, our country is safe, and we are fine now and I will keep it this way" on 9/10/01 and would've been nuts if he thought the same the next day. Of course, events occur in the world that you are not necessarily in charge of, and you have to adapt.

I'd rather have politicians willing to adapt and change to the country to keep up with the country and to provide the best possible answers for each problem as they come along rather than have a set line that may soon be outdated and behind.

If history teaches anything.. those who refuse to adapt and advance often end up behind and forgotten.

jcookc6 · 09-09-2004, 02:48 AM

Just trying to make it simple, I stated it was an example, not a fact. But if you want a factual one, how about the SUV example. I think the people who have been following the race will remember that one.

smooth · 09-09-2004, 03:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jcookc6

Just trying to make it simple, I stated it was an example, not a fact. But if you want a factual one, how about the SUV example. I think the people who have been following the race will remember that one.

I have been following the race and I don't know what you are referring to.

host · 09-09-2004, 03:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seretogis

As much as you may detest the "flip flop bullshit" it is one of Kerry's weaknesses and will be mentioned time and time again because it is a serious issue. It is easy to tell where Bush stands on issues -- he makes a decision and sticks to it. He has yet to flip-flop on Iraq or Afghanistan. He has yet to flip-flop on gay marriage (as inappropriate as the issue is for Federal government to be involved in) or gun control. Undecided voters should be very wary of voting for Kerry because he seemingly stands for nothing -- he clearly has no moral or value system which he uses to make policy decisions since he changes his mind so often. For someone that values freedom above all else (neither candidate in this case), it is easy to stick to your guns on social issues. For someone who doesn't know what to think or what the people want, such decisions would be more difficult.

<p>
<b>IMO, Mods should hold members accountable who post unsubstantiated and inflammatory messages on poitical discussion threads. I'm citing
MSN Encarta Encyclopedia to rebut the accusations in the quoted post (above), because a credible case can be made that Kerry is the candidate
ideally suited, by past accomplishments with sources cited in links below,
to "take on" and expose the shortcomings and inadequacies inherent in numerous policies and in the record of the present Republican administration,
and to end up prevailing, as he has historically, in political matches, first
against Nixon, and then against Reagan/Bush. I suspect that is why there
is such venom being hurled at him by Rove/Bushco and their supporters:</b>
</td></tr></table><table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0"><tr>Article Outline</td></tr><tr><td valign="top" class="outline"><a href="http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761581713/John_Kerry.html#s1">Introduction</a>; <a href="http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761581713/John_Kerry.html#s2">Early Life</a>; <a href="http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761581713/John_Kerry.html#s8">Education</a>; <a href="http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761581713/John_Kerry.html#s3">The Vietnam War Period</a>; <a href="http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761581713/John_Kerry.html#s4">Early Political Career</a>; <a href="http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761581713_2/John_Kerry.html#s5">Senate Years</a>; <a href="http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761581713_2/John_Kerry.html#s6">Kerry’s Second Marriage</a>; <a href="http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761581713_2/John_Kerry.html#s7">The 2004 Presidential Campaign</a></td></tr></table><div style="clear:left" /><a name="s5"></a><table class="sectiontitle" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"><tr valign="baseline"><td class="sec2">VI</td><td width="15"></td><td class="sec1">Senate Years</td></tr><tr><td colspan="3"><a class="pseclink" href="http://encarta.msn.com/text_761581713___5/John_Kerry.html" title="View print-ready information">Print Preview of Section</a></td></tr></table><a name="p38"></a><p><font size="2" class="pkey">Kerry arrived in Washington, D.C., in 1985, returning to the forum where he had first come to fame in 1971 as an antiwar leader. Now Kerry was leading the fight against another war: the Reagan administration’s effort to overthrow the <a class="qv" href="http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761573126/Sandinistas.html">Sandinista</a> regime in <a class="qv" href="http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761577584/Nicaragua.html">Nicaragua</a>. Kerry flew to Nicaragua and met with the Sandinista leader, <a class="qv" href="http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761577418/Ortega_Saavedra_Daniel.html">Daniel Ortega</a>. Ortega shortly thereafter flew to Moscow, then still the capital of the <a class="qv" href="http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761553017/Union_of_Soviet_Socialist_Republics.html">Union of Soviet Socialist Republics</a> (USSR), to pick up a $200-million loan. The Reagan White House mocked Kerry for dealing with Ortega, calling him a Soviet ally, but Kerry kept a close eye on the Reagan administration’s dealings with the small Central American country. </font></p><div style="clear:left" /><a name="p39"></a><p><font size="2" class="pkey">Soon, Kerry began to hear stories about secret U.S. assistance to a group known as the <i>contras</i> that was trying to overthrow the Sandinista government. Although President Reagan viewed the contras as “freedom fighters,” Kerry called them a “mercenary army” financed by the <a class="qv" href="http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761568583/Central_Intelligence_Agency.html">Central Intelligence Agency</a> (CIA). In an echo of his accusations about U.S. actions in Vietnam, Kerry charged that the contras had been “guilty of atrocities against civilians.” Kerry’s investigations helped lead to revelations of what became known as the <a class="qv" href="http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761573296/Iran-Contra_Affair.html">Iran-contra scandal</a>, in which profits from secret U.S. arms sales to Iran were illegally diverted to help finance the contras.</font></p><div style="clear:left" /><a name="p41"></a><p><font size="2" class="pkey">As a former prosecutor, and with his war experience providing him with a skeptical view of U.S. foreign policies, Kerry became known more as an investigator than a legislator. Kerry’s investigations included an examination of a banking scandal involving the <a class="qv" href="http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_762504862/Bank_of_Commerce_and_Credit_International.html">Bank of Commerce and Credit International</a> (BCCI), which engaged in fraud and laundered money from illegal drug trafficking. Some of Kerry’s critics charge that his Senate career lacked distinction because of his failure to draft and sponsor the passage of major legislation. But his defenders answer that Kerry was not known for authoring bills because that task was left to his senior colleague, Democratic senator <a class="qv" href="http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761567104/Ted_Kennedy.html">Edward Kennedy</a>. Nevertheless, Kerry did help write and support many key pieces of legislation. Not all of the bills fit the liberal mold that Kerry is known for. Kerry, for instance, joined Republicans in backing a deficit-reduction bill. He was a fierce critic of the abuse of illegal narcotics, working on antidrug issues with some of the most conservative Republicans, including former senator <a class="qv" href="http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761581664/Jesse_Helms.html">Jesse Helms</a> of North Carolina. </font></p><div style="clear:left" /><a name="p43"></a><p><font size="2" class="pkey">Kerry also earned a reputation as a publicity seeker. He was given the nickname Liveshot for his ability to attract news coverage. But he also won many admirers who believed that Kerry was willing to tackle difficult issues. For example, Kerry worked with Senator <a class="qv" href="http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761581773/John_McCain.html">John McCain</a>, an Arizona Republican and fellow Vietnam veteran, on an investigation into whether American soldiers were still being held in Vietnam. The pair determined there was no proof that Americans were still imprisoned, and they stood by President <a class="qv" href="http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761564341/Bill_Clinton.html">Bill Clinton</a>’s side in 1995 when the United States announced it was normalizing relations with Vietnam. </font></p> </td><td>

The Phenomenon · 09-09-2004, 04:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seretogis

As much as you may detest the "flip flop bullshit" it is one of Kerry's weaknesses and will be mentioned time and time again because it is a serious issue. It is easy to tell where Bush stands on issues -- he makes a decision and sticks to it. He has yet to flip-flop on Iraq or Afghanistan. He has yet to flip-flop on gay marriage (as inappropriate as the issue is for Federal government to be involved in) or gun control. Undecided voters should be very wary of voting for Kerry because he seemingly stands for nothing -- he clearly has no moral or value system which he uses to make policy decisions since he changes his mind so often. For someone that values freedom above all else (neither candidate in this case), it is easy to stick to your guns on social issues. For someone who doesn't know what to think or what the people want, such decisions would be more difficult.

Here is something for you then:

Quote:

Originally Posted by shakran

He said bin Laden was responsible for 9/11 and that's why we'll stop at nothing to get him.

Now bin Laden's totally forgotten (by him anyway) and somehow Saddam is connected with 9/11 and it's far more important to invade Iraq than it is to catch the terrorist.

He said in his campaign that he was an isolationist president.

Now - - well. . isolationists don't attack countries that aren't attacking us first.

He said that anyone who harbors, trains, funds, etc. terrorists are on our hit list.

Now he fails entirely to put Saudi Arabia on our hit list.

in 2001 he promised not to touch the social security surplus.

In 2002 he submitted a budget with plans to spend the social security surplus to fund other programs through the year 2013, to the tune of around 1.4 trillion dollars or so.

In May of this year, he announced that he was in favor of leaving tobacco subsidies the way they are.

In June of this year, he announced that he was open to a buyout of tobacco subsidies.

In 2002 he said he would not offer North Korea any incentives to disarm.

In 2004 he offered them money and political favors if they disarmed.

in June of 2000 he said he supports women's rights to choose whether to have an abortion or not.

In October of 2000, he announced that he is pro life.

In 2000 he said "the president must jawbone OPEC members to lower the price" of oil. He said the president "ought to get on the phone with the OPEC cartel and say we expect you to open your spigots."

In 2004 he refused to personally lobby OPEC to reduce oil prices or to increase oil supply.

In May of 2003 he said in a polish interview "..."We found the weapons of mass destruction. We found biological laboratories...for those who say we haven't found the banned manufacturing devices or banned weapons, they're wrong, we found them."

In February of 2004 he said we hadn't found them, and didn't know where they were.

In September of 2001 he said he wanted bin Laden, "dead or alive."

In March of 2002 he said in a press conference "I don't know where he is.You know, I just don't spend that much time on him... I truly am not that concerned about him."

In February of 2000 he said that the issue of gay marriage is an issue to be decided by the states.

In February of 2004 he called for a constitutional ammendment making it federally illegal for gays to get married.

In March of 2000 he said "George W. Bush opposes McCain-Feingold...as an infringement on free expression."

In March of 2002 he signed McCain-Feingold into law, saying "This bill improves the current system of financing for Federal campaigns, and therefore I have signed it into law."

In 2002 he set a timeline for Saddam, saying that he had a month to comply with all of Bush's demands or he'd get attacked.

In 2004 he said "I don't think you give timelines to dictators."

In April of 2004 he said "can you ever win the war on terror? Of course you can."

On August 30, 2004 he said "I don't think you can win it (the war on terror)"

On August 31, 2004 he said "make no mistake about it we are winning and we will win (the war on terror.)"

Kadath · 09-09-2004, 06:00 AM

Shakran, your list has now been quoted 3 times.

Superbelt · 09-09-2004, 06:11 AM

And seriously noted by the "Kerry is a flip flopper, which makes him unworthy of the office of Presidency compared to Bush" individuals, 0 times.

jcookc6 · 09-09-2004, 12:58 PM

The SUV incident for Smooth. Kerry made a speech before the autoworkers in Detroit, bragged about his Chevy Suburban and other gas guzzlers. Then he goes to an environmentilist group and makes a speech about energy conservation, about how he drives an old car that doesnt burn much gas. Someone then showed pictures of all the gaz guzzlers parked outside his mansions. Kerry responded that they were not his, but the Family's cars. This was back in the spring sometime.

Mojo_PeiPei · 09-09-2004, 01:19 PM

A big issue of Kerry's flip flop-edness seems to stem by the stark contrast of what his agenda and voting record has a senator has been and is, and what he says he is going to do. I'm not saying all of it is true or taken in context, but when the guy votes to raise taxes several hundred times, and then promises not tax the middle class, thats a flop. When a man promises huge sweeping social programs and federal funding, but says he is not going to vote for taxes, thats a flop.

Plus he did vote for the war before he voted against it....

shakran · 09-09-2004, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kadath

Shakran, your list has now been quoted 3 times.

So I see! I should publish this thing. Make some cash

^Ice_Bat^ · 09-10-2004, 06:41 AM

Know why people hate the "flip-flop" business so much? Cause it's true and there's nothing that the Democratic party can say or do about it. I find it hilarious. And issues like this do matter. You need a president that has integrity, and isn't going to go around people pleasing telling everyone what they want to hear. When Bush says something to the public, he means it, and he does not change his mind. I'd rather vote for the person who has a strong set of ideals, and does not waver from them, rather than the person that runs around like a chicken with his head cut off wondering what he's going to do next.

Superbelt · 09-10-2004, 06:53 AM

/\ Another person that totally ignored Shakran's post of Bush's flip flops on important issues.

Surprise, surprise, surprise
/pyle!

jb2000 · 09-10-2004, 07:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

I was for this post before I was against it.

Changing your mind is fine. Changing your mind day by day based on what sounds good to who you are talking to is pandering, not leadership.

Is it wrong to support a bill in one iteration but oppose it when the wording is changed?

That is what is at the source of the whole flip-flop attack against his statement that you are mocking in your first sentence.

jb2000 · 09-10-2004, 08:30 AM

In short, SB, you are absolutely right that the Flip-Flop issue is bullshit, not to mince words. There is a sizeable segment of the electorate who does not want to deal with the vagaries and intricacies of this world and would rather view things in black and white. They respond well to a leader who for better or worse approaches issues, at least publicly, in such a manner. While it is true that Bush has had vast swings in action based upon changing popular support, on the surface, he projects a single-minded and steadfast exterior, unbending and resolute.

Kerry presents a very different approach. He is a thinking man who likes to keep his options open, and adapt to situations as they develop. This is kind of scary to those who have inflexible black and white views of the world. But to those of us who appreciate the ability to act on one's feet and not be bound by rhetoric, such a flexible approach:

Yes, one can support the essence of a bill but not vote for it because certain elements are unpalatable.

Yes, one can support a bill and then withdraw that support when the language is changed in a negative way.

Yes, one can support the military and oppose programs which don't represent the best options for spending resources.

Yes, one can support firearms ownership, but yet demand responsibility as part of the equation.

Bush's attacks on Kerry as a flip-flopper are no different than the high school jock's attacks on the nerd for being a smarty pants, and no better thought out. I'll stand with the thinking man vs. the bully any day of the week, thank you.

filtherton · 09-10-2004, 08:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ^Ice_Bat^

Know why people hate the "flip-flop" business so much? Cause it's true and there's nothing that the Democratic party can say or do about it. I find it hilarious. And issues like this do matter. You need a president that has integrity, and isn't going to go around people pleasing telling everyone what they want to hear. When Bush says something to the public, he means it, and he does not change his mind. I'd rather vote for the person who has a strong set of ideals, and does not waver from them, rather than the person that runs around like a chicken with his head cut off wondering what he's going to do next.

To paraphrase: Chewbacca is a wookie.

JumpinJesus · 09-10-2004, 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ^Ice_Bat^

Know why people hate the "flip-flop" business so much? Cause it's true and there's nothing that the Democratic party can say or do about it. I find it hilarious. And issues like this do matter. You need a president that has integrity, and isn't going to go around people pleasing telling everyone what they want to hear. When Bush says something to the public, he means it, and he does not change his mind. I'd rather vote for the person who has a strong set of ideals, and does not waver from them, rather than the person that runs around like a chicken with his head cut off wondering what he's going to do next.

Being resolute is admirable. Being stubborn and inflexible is not. President Bush is not resolute, he is stubborn and inflexible.

Fred181 · 09-11-2004, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shakran

You beat me to it, but what he said brings up another interesting point. This isn't a bash of republicans - it's more of a "how the HELL do they do that?"

Absolutely! In this day and age there is very little difference between the parties (canidates), the reason the Republicans have won the majority in both houses and the presidency is becuase... they're better at winning. Their PR machine is more powerful, thier supporters are more powerful etc etc. Why else would everyone be believing that John Kerry is a "flip-flopper" when his opponent does the exact same thing. Do any of us honestly believe that Bush does not go to the (insert your favorite politcal group here) rally and tell them what they want to hear? That's what politicians do. They make themselves as apealable as possible to the widest group of people.

Fred181 · 09-11-2004, 02:01 PM

Sorry for the double post but to build on Shakran's fine list... Actual words out of GWB's mouth:

Quote:

<STRONG>North Korea</STRONG>

BUSH WILL NOT OFFER NUCLEAR NORTH KOREA INCENTIVES TO DISARM... "We developed a bold approach under which, if the North addressed our long-standing concerns, the United States was prepared to take important steps that would have significantly improved the lives of the North Korean people. Now that North Korea's covert nuclear weapons program has come to light, we are unable to pursue this approach." [President's Statement, 11/15/02]

...BUSH ADMINISTRATION OFFERS NORTH KOREA INCENTIVES TO DISARM "Well, we will work to take steps to ease their political and economic isolation. So there would be -- what you would see would be some provisional or temporary proposals that would only lead to lasting benefit after North Korea dismantles its nuclear programs. So there would be some provisional or temporary efforts of that nature." [White House Press Secretary Scott McClellan, 6/23/04]

<STRONG>On Weapons of Mass Destruction</STRONG>

BUSH SAYS WE FOUND THE WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION..."We found the weapons of mass destruction. We found biological laboratories...for those who say we haven't found the banned manufacturing devices or banned weapons, they're wrong, we found them." [President Bush, Interview in Poland, 5/29/03]

...BUSH SAYS WE HAVEN'T FOUND WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION "David Kay has found the capacity to produce weapons.And when David Kay goes in and says we haven't found stockpiles yet, and there's theories as to where the weapons went. They could have been destroyed during the war. Saddam and his henchmen could have destroyed them as we entered into Iraq. They could be hidden. They could have been transported to another country, and we'll find out." [President Bush, Meet the Press, 2/7/04]

<STRONG>On The Department of Homeland Security</STRONG>

BUSH OPPOSES THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY... "So, creating a Cabinet office doesn't solve the problem. You still will have agencies within the federal government that have to be coordinated. So the answer is that creating a Cabinet post doesn't solve anything." [White House spokesman Ari Fleischer, 3/19/02]

...BUSH SUPPORTS THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY "So tonight, I ask the Congress to join me in creating a single, permanent department with an overriding and urgent mission: securing the homeland of America and protecting the American people." [President Bush, Address to the Nation, 6/6/02]

<STRONG>On The Environment</STRONG>

BUSH SUPPORTS MANDATORY CAPS ON CARBON DIOXIDE... "[If elected], Governor Bush will work to...establish mandatory reduction targets for emissions of four main pollutants: sulfur dioxide, nitrogen oxide, mercury and carbon dioxide." [Bush Environmental Plan, 9/29/00]

...BUSH OPPOSES MANDATORY CAPS ON CARBON DIOXIDE "I do not believe, however, that the government should impose on power plants mandatory emissions reductions for carbon dioxide, which is not a 'pollutant' under the Clean Air Act." [President Bush, Letter to Sen. Chuck Hagel (R-NE), 3/13/03]

<STRONG>On Winning The War On Terror</STRONG>

BUSH CLAIMS HE CAN WIN THE WAR ON TERROR: "One of the interesting things people ask me, now that we're asking questions, is, can you ever win the war on terror? Of course, you can." [President Bush, 4/13/04]

…BUSH SAYS WAR ON TERROR IS UNWINNABLE: "I don't think you can win [the war on terror]." [President Bush, 8/30/04]

…BUSH SAYS HE WILL WIN THE WAR ON TERROR: "Make no mistake about it, we are winning and we will win [the war on terror]." [President Bush, 8/31/04]

Borrowed from <A HREF="http://www.jackotoole.net">Here</A>

Stompy · 09-11-2004, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ^Ice_Bat^

Know why people hate the "flip-flop" business so much? Cause it's true and there's nothing that the Democratic party can say or do about it. I find it hilarious. And issues like this do matter. You need a president that has integrity, and isn't going to go around people pleasing telling everyone what they want to hear. When Bush says something to the public, he means it, and he does not change his mind. I'd rather vote for the person who has a strong set of ideals, and does not waver from them, rather than the person that runs around like a chicken with his head cut off wondering what he's going to do next.

I'm not sure if this post was meant as a joke or not, but if NOT, then this is a prime example of what I was talking about in my first post!! That's totally what I'm talking about when I say it's hard for others to take these posts seriously.

Did you even read the post at all, or did you see "flip flop is BS" in the subject and just ramble off a response? Did you even read the thread? If so, you'd see for your very eyes the exact issues Bush has flip flopped on, which pretty much backs up the point made that almost all politicians do it (at least, in Bush vs. Kerry, anyway).

There are a lot of responses by people going "but Kerry DOES flip flop".. yeah, and we know that. So does Bush. That's the point of this thread.

09-08-2004, 09:06 AM	#1 (permalink)
Stompy Banned from being Banned Location: Donkey	This "flip flop" BS is annoying. This very trendy and cliche term is often used by people who are against Kerry to describe his position on issues or his strength as a solid leader (or lack thereof). To get to the point - this is a perfect example of the pot calling the kettle black. You can't expect to make a cogent statement or argument against a candidate using that particular quality if the candidate YOU SUPPORT shares it as well. A lot of Bush supporters use this. We all know Bush has changed his mind on many occasions, so really, if you feel Kerry isn't a strong leader because of "flip flopping", then how could you feel the opposite about Bush? You can't be against one candidate doing it but for the other. Are people uninformed, do they just choose not to believe it, or are there valid excuses and reasons for their candidate's change-of-heart? It just doesn't make any sense and gets very annoying when trying to hold an actual intelligent discussion with someone and they bust out with that tactic as if it's supposed to give them some advantage in what they're trying to explain. Am I mistaken? Can someone name one president who, in either their office as president, senator, or otherwise, never changed their mind on an issue? [edited for clarification] __________________ I love lamp. Last edited by Stompy; 09-08-2004 at 09:22 AM..

09-08-2004, 09:11 AM	#2 (permalink)
the_marq All hail the Mountain King Location: Black Mesa	Yes I would prefer a leader who makes a decision and then blindly sticks to it come hell or high water (or new information). I don't support either candidate, as a Canadian I can't. But logically I would not eliminate someone because they changed their mind. __________________ The Truth: Johnny Cash could have kicked Bruce Lee's ass if he wanted to. #3 in a series

09-08-2004, 09:26 AM	#3 (permalink)
Superbelt This vexes me. I am terribly vexed. Location: Grantville, Pa	I hate the flip-flop bullshit so much. And it makes me feel so childish. Either you are so stupid that you actually believe that meme, or you use it anyway (fully knowing it's a bullshit charge) because it gets under the skin of the other side and detracts from real issues. It makes me think none of us ever made it past kindergarden. Johnny: can I play with that ball? Bully: NO! Johnny: Please? Bully: I heard you eat poop! Johnny: No I don't! Bully: I heard you did. You're a poop eater! Johnny: What? I don't eat poop! Bully: Poop eater, poop eater! Johnny: Shut up! Why are you lying about me? Bully: Poop eater, poop eater! (Other classmates): Poop eater, poop eater! chorus of half the playground: Poop eater, Poop eater! Johnny eats poop! Johnny cries. /so does Jesus. Last edited by Superbelt; 09-08-2004 at 09:29 AM..*

09-08-2004, 09:27 AM	#4 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes	I was for this post before I was against it. Changing your mind is fine. Changing your mind day by day based on what sounds good to who you are talking to is pandering, not leadership. __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

09-08-2004, 09:28 AM	#5 (permalink)
Kadath Muffled Location: Camazotz	Stompy -- I think William Henry Harrison probably didn't have time to change his mind -- except about the wisdom of not wearing a jacket during his inaugaration. In all seriousness, Shakran has an excellent list of Bush's opinion shifts in this thread. Flip-flop, most liberal, didn't deserve his medals, these are all wonderful themes parroted by the talking heads. People are stupid and easily convinced by the ten word answer, by the sound bite, by propaganda. __________________ it's quiet in here

09-08-2004, 12:13 PM	#7 (permalink)
seretogis Huggles, sir? Location: Seattle	As much as you may detest the "flip flop bullshit" it is one of Kerry's weaknesses and will be mentioned time and time again because it is a serious issue. It is easy to tell where Bush stands on issues -- he makes a decision and sticks to it. He has yet to flip-flop on Iraq or Afghanistan. He has yet to flip-flop on gay marriage (as inappropriate as the issue is for Federal government to be involved in) or gun control. Undecided voters should be very wary of voting for Kerry because he seemingly stands for nothing -- he clearly has no moral or value system which he uses to make policy decisions since he changes his mind so often. For someone that values freedom above all else (neither candidate in this case), it is easy to stick to your guns on social issues. For someone who doesn't know what to think or what the people want, such decisions would be more difficult. __________________ seretogis - sieg heil perfect little dream the kind that hurts the most, forgot how it feels well almost no one to blame always the same, open my eyes wake up in flames

09-08-2004, 12:26 PM	#8 (permalink)
Sargeman Insane Location: Texas	It's funny how when posting something that you want to make your point across, some posters refer to those that disagree with them or their views as stupid, mindless, morons, sheep, etc. etc. But if you agree with them then you are thinking for yourself and not listening to what others tell you. __________________ ...because there are no facts, there is no truth, just data to be manipulated. I can get you any results you like, what's it worth to you.....

09-08-2004, 12:44 PM	#9 (permalink)
tecoyah Illusionary	What is the difference between a Flip Flop....and an outright Lie? Serious Question. Bush Lies (in my opinion)....Kerry Flip Flops They are both less than the best of the best. __________________ Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

09-08-2004, 12:57 PM	#10 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	its one of those irregular verbs isnt it? I am flexible, he is indecisive. __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas

09-08-2004, 01:10 PM	#12 (permalink)
Jonsgirl Semi-Atomic Location: Home.	I don't think I'd call him a 'flip-flopper;' no more than I would any other polititian in history. It's just something Bush is using to pick at him. I remember reading about this somewhere....what was it?......Hrmm.....Oh yeah, they called it Propaganda. Not Truth. __________________ Someday, someone will best me. But it won't be today, and it won't be you.

09-08-2004, 05:49 PM	#14 (permalink)
jcookc6 Psycho Location: Venice, Florida	I will give you an example of the way John Kerry is and why he is called a flip flopper. (The following is not true, just an example to get the point across.) Sen Kerry goes to an arsonist's convention, he tells them how much he loves to watch fires. Then 2 days later he goes to a firefighters convention and tells firemen what a great job they are doing, and anyone who sets fires on purpose should be prosecuted. I know that is a lousy example, but he will take any stand to make the people he is talking to happy.

09-09-2004, 12:10 AM	#18 (permalink)
Zeld2.0 Cherry-pickin' devil's advocate Location: Los Angeles	I have a bigger problem with people who think politicians will actually adhere or should adhere to a set goal. Flexibility is big in learning to adapt to changing environments. Politics is an ever-changing environment. Bush could've said "Hey, our country is safe, and we are fine now and I will keep it this way" on 9/10/01 and would've been nuts if he thought the same the next day. Of course, events occur in the world that you are not necessarily in charge of, and you have to adapt. I'd rather have politicians willing to adapt and change to the country to keep up with the country and to provide the best possible answers for each problem as they come along rather than have a set line that may soon be outdated and behind. If history teaches anything.. those who refuse to adapt and advance often end up behind and forgotten.

09-09-2004, 02:48 AM	#19 (permalink)
jcookc6 Psycho Location: Venice, Florida	Just trying to make it simple, I stated it was an example, not a fact. But if you want a factual one, how about the SUV example. I think the people who have been following the race will remember that one.

09-09-2004, 06:00 AM	#23 (permalink)
Kadath Muffled Location: Camazotz	Shakran, your list has now been quoted 3 times. __________________ it's quiet in here

09-09-2004, 06:11 AM	#24 (permalink)
Superbelt This vexes me. I am terribly vexed. Location: Grantville, Pa	And seriously noted by the "Kerry is a flip flopper, which makes him unworthy of the office of Presidency compared to Bush" individuals, 0 times.

09-09-2004, 12:58 PM	#25 (permalink)
jcookc6 Psycho Location: Venice, Florida	The SUV incident for Smooth. Kerry made a speech before the autoworkers in Detroit, bragged about his Chevy Suburban and other gas guzzlers. Then he goes to an environmentilist group and makes a speech about energy conservation, about how he drives an old car that doesnt burn much gas. Someone then showed pictures of all the gaz guzzlers parked outside his mansions. Kerry responded that they were not his, but the Family's cars. This was back in the spring sometime.

09-09-2004, 01:19 PM	#26 (permalink)
Mojo_PeiPei Kiss of Death Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow	A big issue of Kerry's flip flop-edness seems to stem by the stark contrast of what his agenda and voting record has a senator has been and is, and what he says he is going to do. I'm not saying all of it is true or taken in context, but when the guy votes to raise taxes several hundred times, and then promises not tax the middle class, thats a flop. When a man promises huge sweeping social programs and federal funding, but says he is not going to vote for taxes, thats a flop. Plus he did vote for the war before he voted against it.... __________________ To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition. Last edited by Mojo_PeiPei; 09-09-2004 at 01:23 PM..

09-10-2004, 06:41 AM	#28 (permalink)
^Ice_Bat^ Insane Location: Southpark, Colorado	Know why people hate the "flip-flop" business so much? Cause it's true and there's nothing that the Democratic party can say or do about it. I find it hilarious. And issues like this do matter. You need a president that has integrity, and isn't going to go around people pleasing telling everyone what they want to hear. When Bush says something to the public, he means it, and he does not change his mind. I'd rather vote for the person who has a strong set of ideals, and does not waver from them, rather than the person that runs around like a chicken with his head cut off wondering what he's going to do next. __________________ If you ever catch on fire, try to avoid looking in a mirror, because I bet that will really throw you into a panic. - Jack Handy Last edited by ^Ice_Bat^; 09-10-2004 at 06:45 AM..

09-10-2004, 06:53 AM	#29 (permalink)
Superbelt This vexes me. I am terribly vexed. Location: Grantville, Pa	/\ Another person that totally ignored Shakran's post of Bush's flip flops on important issues. Surprise, surprise, surprise /pyle!

09-10-2004, 08:30 AM	#31 (permalink)
jb2000 Crazy Location: Allen, TX	In short, SB, you are absolutely right that the Flip-Flop issue is bullshit, not to mince words. There is a sizeable segment of the electorate who does not want to deal with the vagaries and intricacies of this world and would rather view things in black and white. They respond well to a leader who for better or worse approaches issues, at least publicly, in such a manner. While it is true that Bush has had vast swings in action based upon changing popular support, on the surface, he projects a single-minded and steadfast exterior, unbending and resolute. Kerry presents a very different approach. He is a thinking man who likes to keep his options open, and adapt to situations as they develop. This is kind of scary to those who have inflexible black and white views of the world. But to those of us who appreciate the ability to act on one's feet and not be bound by rhetoric, such a flexible approach: Yes, one can support the essence of a bill but not vote for it because certain elements are unpalatable. Yes, one can support a bill and then withdraw that support when the language is changed in a negative way. Yes, one can support the military and oppose programs which don't represent the best options for spending resources. Yes, one can support firearms ownership, but yet demand responsibility as part of the equation. Bush's attacks on Kerry as a flip-flopper are no different than the high school jock's attacks on the nerd for being a smarty pants, and no better thought out. I'll stand with the thinking man vs. the bully any day of the week, thank you.