Mephisto2

Well, the title says it all.

Do you believe Saudi Arabia is to blame for the terrorist attacks? I'm not asking about Saudi nationals, as they were obviously involved, but I'm asking if you believe the Saudi state was involved.


Mr Mephisto

Halx

Attacking Afghanistan and then Iraq seems to be a really round-about way to getting to the REAL culprits. Then again, I never professed much trust in the competency of Bush.

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OpieCunningham

What about:

- Yes. We should stop buying their oil immediately.
- No. We should stop buying their oil immediately.
- Doesn't matter. We should stop buying their oil immediately.

?

pan6467

I truly believe the Saudis knew about it "not officially" and did nothing. When you think about it, the Saudis gained a lot.

There's an element over here believing Isreal had something to do with it and there is an anti-semitic feel.

There's the fact that we took out a thorn in the Saudi's side (Saddam).

Oil prices have been able to go up.

We have to use Saudi land (which I am sure costs our government big bucks) for military purposes.

With connections between Bush, Cheney and the Royal family, they knew there would be no retaliation and they could deny anything with Bush agreeing to it.


Now, what did Saudi lose?

Nothing.

I take that back a couple million in advertising to promote how they are our great friends and we should trust them, while they cut production of oil and terrorists born, raised and trained in their country slice our soldiers throats.

Conclusion: there's a reason why the terrorists are coming from Saudi. Could it be they educate their children to hate us, while we give them billions for their oil.

(This is not to say all Saudis are this way, like most governments INCLUDING OUR OWN, the Saudi government commits immoral, inhumane, unjust acts that are not indicative of the people nor are they condoned by the majority of those people.)

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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

tricks

I voted no, but I feel it was the same with Iraq and we invaded them.

As for U.S. troops there, I belive they've mostly moved to Qatar where it's safer and less politically volitile for those in charge there.

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powerclown

Does the Saudi Govt support al-Qaeda??

Possibly, but I don't think so. much (all?) of obl's hatred stems from the fact that the saudi govt has chosen to ally itself with the west, america in particular. he would have saudi arabia under a sea of fire if he could possibly do it. are there private saudi citizens funding, staffing, promoting, and otherwise collaborating with al-qaeda? I would say definitely.

powerclown

Ustwo

Do I think the Saudi government had anything to do directly/indirectly with 9/11? No because it would be monsterously stupid for them to do so.

Do I think the Saudi government fostered a climate of hate that led to 9/11? You betcha, but so has every other Arab nation out there.

The proper order of bombing is Iran, Syria, then the rest will basicly surrender.

Its really a shame that we have had all this whining and hand wringing about Iraq, it will mean we won't be able to do a proper job in Iran and will most likely have to count on the Isrealis to bomb the nuke plants.

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Mephisto2

Ustwo, are you honestly promoting an attack upon Iran and then Syria?

If so, you are the perfect example of why the Middle Eastern countries fear and (in some cases) hate America, and why Islamic fundamentalists are so easily able to recruit disenfranchised youth to act as terrorists.

I'm sure you'd be the first one to throw up your hands and cry "Damn Arab terrorists, they're attacking us again!" or some such outburst.

If the US attacks Syria and Iran, then (by your own logic), the "terrorists" would have every right to strike back.

Snake eating its own tail?


Mr Mephisto

pan6467

Yeah, guess Bush won't care how many our troops lives he takes as we invade Iran, a country that HAS said it would use nukes on us if we invaded.

And sure bomb Syria so that Egypt can have reason to invade Isreal or is it Isreal will have reason to invade Egypt. I forget with these damn games. Oooo Wait real people would die.... hmmm obviously some people don't give a damn they just want to take out anyone who disagrees with them and Bush (think they'd take some of us out in the States if they could get away with it, teach those who question Bush a lesson).

I suppose India (who have nukes also) would be on that list to invade also since we're all buddy buddy with Pakistan and the 2 hate each other. (Tsun Tzu's Art of war: The enemy of my friend is my enemy).

Hell, then let's just go into Vietnam again while we're there and show the damn commies we coulda won. Then we have to go through china to get our troops into N. Korea. Then there's those pesky Aussies, ah but Murdoch supports Bush so we'll leave them alone and just take New Zealand.

Fuck it, let's just keep invading, until we control the world. Bush hasn't shown any care for life lost yet anyway, why should he now or in the future.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Mephisto2

Heh...

Methinks I detect a note of sarcasm.

Mr Mephisto

Mephisto2

Correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I know, the US only buys a fraction of its oil from Saudi Arabia. The vast majority comes from Mexico and the United Kingdom.

Mr Mephisto

pan6467

Iran warns of preemptive strike to prevent attack on nuclear sites



DOHA : Iranian Defense Minister Ali Shamkhani warned that Iran might launch a preemptive strike against US forces in the region to prevent an attack on its nuclear facilities.

"We will not sit (with arms folded) to wait for what others will do to us. Some military commanders in Iran are convinced that preventive operations which the Americans talk about are not their monopoly," Shamkhani told Al-Jazeera TV when asked if Iran would respond to an American attack on its nuclear facilities.

"America is not the only one present in the region. We are also present, from Khost to Kandahar in Afghanistan; we are present in the Gulf and we can be present in Iraq," said Shamkhani, speaking in Farsi to the Arabic-language news channel through an interpreter.

"The US military presence (in Iraq) will not become an element of strength (for Washington) at our expense. The opposite is true, because their forces would turn into a hostage" in Iranian hands in the event of an attack, he said.

Shamkhani, who was asked about the possibility of an American or Israeli strike against Iran's atomic power plant in Bushehr, added: "We will consider any strike against our nuclear installations as an attack on Iran as a whole, and we will retaliate with all our strength.

"Where Israel is concerned, we have no doubt that it is an evil entity, and it will not be able to launch any military operation without an American green light. You cannot separate the two."

A commander of Iran's elite Revolutionary Guards was quoted in the Iranian press earlier Wednesday as saying that Tehran would strike the Israeli reactor at Dimona if Israel attacks the Islamic republic's own burgeoning nuclear facilities.

"If Israel fires one missile at Bushehr atomic power plant, it should permanently forget about Dimona nuclear center, where it produces and keeps its nuclear weapons, and Israel would be responsible for the terrifying consequence of this move," General Mohammad Baqer Zolqadr warned.

Iran's controversial bid to generate nuclear power at its plant being built at Bushehr is seen by arch-enemies Israel and the United States as a cover for nuclear weapons development.

The latest comments mark an escalation in an exchange of threats between Israel and Iran in recent weeks, leading to speculation that there may be a repeat of Israel's strike against Iraqi nuclear facilities at Osirak in 1981.

Iran insists that its nuclear intentions are peaceful, while pointing at its enemy's alleged nuclear arsenal, which Israel neither confirms nor denies possessing.

Shamkhani told Al-Jazeera it was not possible "from a practical standpoint" to destroy Iran's nuclear programs because they are the product of national skills "which cannot be eliminated by military means."

He also warned that Iran would consider itself no longer bound by its commitments to the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) in the event of an attack.

"The execution of such threats (to attack Iran's nuclear installations) would mean that our cooperation with the IAEA led to feeding information about our nuclear facilities to the attacking side, which (in turn) means that we would no longer be bound by any of our obligations" to the nuclear watchdog, he said.

Diplomats said in Vienna Tuesday that the IAEA would not say in a report next month whether Iran's nuclear activities are of a military nature, nor will it recommend bringing the case before the UN Security Council.

The IAEA board is due to deliver the report on Iran's nuclear activities during a meeting at the organization's headquarters in Vienna from September 13 after the last of a group of IAEA inspectors returned from Iran last week.

The UN's nuclear agency is conducting a major probe into Iran's bid to generate electricity through nuclear power.

The Islamic republic has agreed to temporarily suspend uranium enrichment pending the completion of the IAEA probe, but is working on other parts of the fuel cycle and has recently resumed making centrifuges used for enrichment.

- AFP

http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stor.../101754/1/.html

Just for those who want proof that Iran said they'd attack us, and Iran is no Iraq, don't think they'd go down as easily.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

pan6467

I was serious tho...... wellll....... I was

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

pan6467

Considering how much we use, even a small percentage (say 10%) equates a lot of money being sent to Saudi.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

OpieCunningham

17% in 2002 - the largest quantity imported to the U.S. from any country.

http://www.scaruffi.com/politics/oil.html

xepherys

Uhm... first, it's hate (and in some cases) fear. Secondly, what disenfranchised youth? They've been training their OWN CHILDREN to be suicide bombers for years... long before they were blowing themselves up in our backyards. Ever hear of Israel? Russia? Much of Europe? This is only new to the U.S.


It's damned Muslim terrorists... it's not all people of arabic decent, and it's not ONLY people of arabic decent. And frankly, the Muslims have been at their holy wars since the religion was founded. Take the Christian Crusades and multiply by ad nauseum... *shrug* Business as usual for many of them (not ALL Muslims are bad... just the nutty Jihadist ones).

whocarz

So they're basically threatening to use nukes on our forces? Atleast that's what I got out of it. I hope they don't have their heads that far up their asses to do something that stupid. I would be willing to bet that if Iran used tactical theater nukes to kill off our troops in the region, we would send them some ICBM death.

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The Phenomenon

The connections are just way too strong for the Saudi State not to be involved in some way.

Even more alarming is the straong relationship Bush and Co. seem to have with the Saudis... Even stranger is the radio adverts from the Saudi governemtn stating that "They are not responsible for the 9/11 attacks".

Mephisto2

Well, according to the National Council for Science and the Environment (NCSE), it is was only 4.4%

The NCSE is "[s]upported by over 500 academic, scientific, environmental, and business organizations, and by federal, state and local government..."

This figure came from a CRS Report for Congress - IB87050: Strategic Petroleum Reserve by Robert Bamberger, Resources, Science, and Industry Division on August 2, 2001.

http://www.ncseonline.org/NLE/CRSrep...rgy/eng-23.cfm


Mr Mephisto

Mephisto2

Or so you believe.

What do mean "What disenfranchised youth? Or do you believe that young Arabic men and women are genetically predisposed towards terrorism?!!

Of course they have to be disenfrachised, or at the very least, disenchanted.

"They" being whom? All the Syrian and Iranian nation? Sheesh...

Yes I have. And yes, it's new to the US because of recent US Foreign Policy. Or do you believe that if the US disengaged from patently anti-Arabic policy that it would continue?

Well, you just contradicted yourself and supported my original statement.


Mr Mephisto

Mephisto2

Interesting article Pan, but unfortunately one I cannot verify as the link is broken. I'm interested in hearing more about this.


Mr Mephisto

OpieCunningham

You're reading the information in the link you provided incorrectly.

The chart where you picked 4.4% is the proportional amount of oil imported into the reserves. Not the proportional total amount of imported oil. What the chart is showing you is that most of the Saudi oil is not placed in the reserves. It is also a 20 year average chart (1975 - 1995).

Pacifier

sometimes I think your postings are just satire .... but then again I'm afraid that people with that "mindset" really exist

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Pacifier

http://www.usatoday.com/money/world/...audi-oil_x.htm
Nine percent of the petroleum consumed in the USA each day comes from Saudi Arabia

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"It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously. I also cannot imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere. Science has been charged with undermining morality, but the charge is unjust. A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death
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Mephisto2

That wasn't a mistake. That's what I meant to show.

However, I accept there is a difference in the amount "saved" vs the amount "used".

Agreed. But isn't a 20 year average figure more reliable than the figure for a single year?

With reference to the reference you posted below, an interesting quote is "only about 30% of the USA's oil imports came from Arab countries in 2002. Since USA oil imports are about 55% of USA oil consumption, only about 15% of USA's oil consumption is provided by Arab countries."

Therefore, considerably less than 17% of US oil consumption is based on Saudi oil. If my maths are right (and I'm never good at this kind of thing), that means less than 10%.

Interesting topic. I wonder where these figures came from? Is Piero scaruffi's personal home page a reliable source?


Mr Mephisto

OpieCunningham

Why would you intentionally want to show how much oil in the U.S. reserve system is imported from specific countries?

My posts have nothing whatsoever to do with the reserve system. It doesn't make any sense that you would point to that. Might as well point to a chart which shows how much Saudi oil is imported into Hawaii. There's no relevance.

15% to 18% of U.S. oil imports are from Saudi Arabia.

A twenty year average ending in 1995? Not at all. If you look at trends, the amount that we import from Saudi Arabia is increasing year-in, year-out. 20 year averages would fluctuate based on a number of factors. Besides the point that the data you pointed to had nothing at all to do with the quantity of oil imported into the U.S.

It's even more interesting when you look at the trends which show a quickly increasing need for the U.S. to import oil.

But it is far less interesting when you consider that the percentage of the U.S. consumption (or stockpiling) of oil which comes from Saudi Arabia is not the issue. The issue is that Saudi Arabia's economy is extremely reliant on exportation of oil. As long as the U.S. (and other oil consumption-heavy countries) continue to feed the Saudi economy, the longer that extreme and oppressive dictatorship will last.

Mephisto2

Because that is the reference I stumbled across.

SIGH. What has no relevance is your insistence on pendantic bickering on the actual percentage of US oil imports.

I stated a fraction. If it's 1/8th or 1/10th, it doesn't really matter. It has no "relevance" to the thread itself. The thread asked if you (the reader) believed Saudi Arabia was directly involved in 9/11.

This is the third (or is it fourth?) thread of mine where you have dropped in and started arguing irrelevent topics. It's getting tiresome.

I'm assuming from some of your other posts that you can make useful and/or valuable contributions. I respectfully ask that you try to do so in my threads, and lose whatever bee you have in your bonnet about posts that have my name in them. Better yet, if you can't do that, simply move along.

Well, this topic should be discussed in another thread. If the latest US Department of the Environment figures are to be believed, then Saudi Arabian oil is number 4 in the current year's imports. Who really cares? What has it got to do with the current topic? If you want to discuss this topic in particular, please start another thread.


Mr Mephisto

OpieCunningham

You're beginning to annoy me now.

I made one post on the topic of Saudi oil. You responded to that post with incorrect information. I responded with a correction of your misinformation. You responded with a citation of irrelevent information in an attempt to support your claim. I responded with yet another correction of your misinformation.

If you didn't want to talk about it - you shouldn't have CONTINUED to respond with incorrect information in the first place.

As to the relevence of Saudi oil to the topic - your poll is so vague and chaotic, I simply suggested a few more as-relevant-as-anything-else-listed options. I did not force you to respond to my suggestions with incorrect information.

Mephisto2

Ditto.

As I said, I respectfully ask you to move along if you can't engage in civil discussion. I do not insult you, yet you insult me.

Good grief man, settle down.

I accepted there was a difference, and I noted it was the first reference I came across.

Stop insulting me. I've tried repeatedly to be civil to you, yet you seem to search for my posts and try to bait me.

No one forced you to join the thread.

Mr Mephisto

Superbelt

We do not rely on middle eastern oil very much. That's been shown pretty well here already. We go more for other sources like Canada (primary) Venezuela and Russia is becoming more popular.

The thing is that the rest of the world relies heavily on the Middle East. Europe, Japan etc.

We act like policement in the middle east to keep the oil prices stable in that region so that the rest of the world doesn't start trying to infringe on the supplies of oil that we are drawing from.

Indirectly all oil is connected. The fact that we draw such a tremendous amount of oil every day helps drive the international oil market. We are the reason oil prices are where they are.

So, shunning Saudi Oil means nothing unless we get the rest of our allies in Europe and Asia to do the same. Course the real solution is to wean us off of Oil, first by shunning unnecessarially wasteful vehicles and wasteful appliances rather than encourage them as an American right. And then finding alternative fuel sources. Until then the Saudi's have the world by the balls.

Ustwo

Maybe you could throw in developing our own sources *cough*ANWAR*cough* as well.

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rukkyg

I guess if you're willing to kill ten thousand iraqi civilians to get your oil, you wouldn't have any problem with killing animals in our own country to get it either, even if it is only a drop in the bucket.

Superbelt

Won't be available for ten years at the least first of all.
Will not appreciably reduce our international dependence on oil.

That isn't a solution that is an attempt to wring every last bit of oil dependence out of this nation that we can.

student

These aren't the nukes of the days of Hiroshima. One is enough to have a global impact on the climate and I'm not exactly sure how many, but I know it wouldn't take very many to revert the world to an ice age. Everyone loses this game if anyone starts it.

Ustwo

The nukes Pakistan has and Iran may soon get are not that powerful, and it would take a full fledged WWIII type of war to get close to starting an ice age. Besides I thought we had to worry about global warming

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powerclown

So true. Its strange twisted fate that so much of the worlds oil is located in such a backwater. A minority in the middle east get obscenely wealthy and powerful not by hard work or intelligence, but for the fact that there is so much oil flowing under their feet.

pedro padilla

it seems to be that the saudis had to have their fingers in there somewhere. what really mystifies me is how that could tie in with a lot of the proven and supposed evidence pointing directly at the israelis. the new spy scandal and neocon and israeli hard liners pushing the identical agendas is very troublesome. this is the office that provided most of the WMD "proof". but where do saudi and israeli christmas wish lists fall together? Iran best start counting the days.

pan6467

Do you have proof it would "take a full fledged WWIII type of war" to start an ice age? Or is that your opinion? I'd like to see your facts.

If Iran starts it's over because Bush would send ours over, China would get involved. India and Pakistan would probably send some at each other. It then isn't about who was right or wrong it becomes how many survive because the fallout would be devestating and it all came unnecessarily. Just because Bush wanted to play cowboy and go invade countries instead of trying to find peaceful ways to negotiate. Everyone can be negotiated with, it's just a question of finding out what they want and what they will settle for, then finding a mutual common groundwork to start.

Anyone thinking the use of nukes is ok in any circumstance has no value for life. It's pathetic anyone would believe that the use of nukes in Iran and the Middle East is ok and wouldn't do any harm to the US.

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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

OpieCunningham

This is not accurate. Canada, Venezuela and Saudi Arabia share the top three slots of exports to the U.S. - year by year they shift positions on who takes top spot.

The year 2002 (starting just 3.5 months after 9/11) top spot was held by Saudi Arabia.

In 2002, 55% of U.S. oil was imported. Last year, 62.5%. Which means our dependence on Canadian oil has increased just as our dependence on Saudi oil has increased.

Correct. A coalition of the willing. And we lead by example.