Schwarzenegger and the big lies he told at the RNC - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

nanofever · 09-05-2004, 10:19 PM

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/....ap/index.html

"VIENNA, Austria (AP) -- Austrian historians are ridiculing California Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger for telling the Republican National Convention that he saw Soviet tanks in his homeland as a child and left a "Socialist" country when he moved away in 1968.

Recalling that the Soviets once occupied part of Austria in the aftermath of World War II, Schwarzenegger told the convention on Tuesday: "I saw tanks in the streets. I saw communism with my own eyes."

No way, historians say, challenging Schwarzenegger's knowledge of postwar history -- if not his enduring popularity among Austrians who admire him for rising from a penniless immigrant to the highest official in America's most populous state.

"It's a fact -- as a child he could not have seen a Soviet tank in Styria," the southeastern province where Schwarzenegger was born and raised, historian Stefan Karner told the Vienna newspaper Kurier.

Schwarzenegger, now a naturalized U.S. citizen, was born on July 30, 1947, when Styria and the neighboring province of Carinthia belonged to the British zone. At the time, postwar Austria was occupied by the four wartime allies, which also included the United States, the Soviet Union and France.

The Soviets already had left Styria in July 1945, less than three months after the end of the war, Karner noted.

"Let me tell you this: As a boy, I lived for many years across the street from where the Russians were based in Vienna -- and honestly, I never saw a Russian tank there," retiree Franz Nitsch said Friday. "He said it all on purpose -- and that's bad."

In his convention address, Schwarzenegger also said: "As a kid, I saw the Socialist country that Austria became after the Soviets left" in 1955 and Austria regained its independence.

But Martin Polaschek, a law history scholar and vice rector of Graz University, told Kurier that Austria was governed by coalition governments, including the conservative People's Party and the Social Democratic Party. Between 1945 and 1970, all the nation's chancellors were conservatives -- not Socialists.

What's more, when Schwarzenegger left in 1968, Austria was run by a conservative government headed by People's Party Chancellor Josef Klaus, a staunch Roman Catholic and a sharp critic of both the Socialists as well as the Communists ruling in countries across the Iron Curtain.

Schwarzenegger "confuses a free country with a Socialist one," said Polaschek, referring to East European Communist officials' routine descriptions of their countries as Socialist.

Polaschek saw the moderate Republican governor's recollections at the convention as a tactical move. Schwarzenegger, he said, was "using the old Communist enemy image for Bush's election campaign."

"He did not speak as a historian, after all, but as a politician," Polaschek said.

Norbert Darabos, a ranking official of Austria's opposition Social Democratic Party, sharply criticized Schwarzenegger's "disdain for his former homeland."

"The Terminator is constructing a rather bizarre Austria image," he said.

But many ordinary Austrians seemed to be in a forgiving mood Friday over the gaffes.

"Maybe he has a wrong recollection -- it's so many years since he left," said Wilma Fadrany, 32, a Vienna waitress.

"There must be political reasons for such comments," she said. "You've got to tell the (convention delegates) what they want to hear in order to win them over. Politicians always talk the way it fits into their agenda.'"

Arnold is clearly playing on old fears about the big, bad, dead Soviet menace to get undecided voters to vote for Bush. I wish he would speak about why Bush should be re-elected instead of pushing such blatant lies on the American public. I think that this kind of deception is all about what Karl Rove wanted for the RNC. This speech and Miller's seem to be the paradigm of what Rove wanted for his convention, lies which sound wonderful but breakdown under the slightest scrunity. I was hoping for a convention that highlighted the good things which Bush has done for the contry, and yet, I recieved a convention where decption was the watchword.

Blackthorn · 09-06-2004, 06:35 AM

Apparently if you can confuse history then "You too are a REPUBLICAN!"...

His speech was none the less pretty entertaining.

sailor · 09-06-2004, 06:59 AM

If that's true, its pretty disturbing. Not really surprising that something like that would come from *any* politician, but you still don't have to like it.

Im still wondering how good of a job he really does and how many people like him just because he's Ah-nuld.

irateplatypus · 09-06-2004, 07:13 AM

these attempts to get the historical record right are just petty personal attacks aimed at distracting voters from the issues. who cares if there really were tanks there or not? the fact is that that is the way arnold remembers it and personal recollections should not be questioned when they are delivered by a high-profile politician. democrats cannot win on the issues so instead they unleash their well-oiled austrian attack machine. just because these austrians (all wealthy donors to the kerry campaign no doubt) were actually there and witnessed these events doesn't mean they have the right to question arnold when he makes political hay out of poorly recollected memories.

this just sickens me people.

brianna · 09-06-2004, 07:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sailor

If that's true, its pretty disturbing. Not really surprising that something like that would come from *any* politician, but you still don't have to like it.

Im still wondering how good of a job he really does and how many people like him just because he's Ah-nuld.

I think this is the main problem with arnold's rise to the governorship in CA -- the only reason he was elected was because of his fame. It worries me that our society has developed such severe celebrity worship.

cj2112 · 09-06-2004, 08:17 AM

hmmmmm once again we have politicians on both sides lying about what they remember....does this really surprise anyone?

Strange Famous · 09-06-2004, 10:03 AM

surely it is an issue if a politician is caught in a lie?

OpieCunningham · 09-06-2004, 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by irateplatypus

these attempts to get the historical record right are just petty personal attacks aimed at distracting voters from the issues. who cares if there really were tanks there or not? the fact is that that is the way arnold remembers it and personal recollections should not be questioned when they are delivered by a high-profile politician. democrats cannot win on the issues so instead they unleash their well-oiled austrian attack machine. just because these austrians (all wealthy donors to the kerry campaign no doubt) were actually there and witnessed these events doesn't mean they have the right to question arnold when he makes political hay out of poorly recollected memories.

this just sickens me people.

"Then he shouldn't have made it the center point of his campaign."

crthiel · 09-06-2004, 11:26 AM

That and about a month ago Arnold was in the news calling California politicians whow put corporate interests over working class citizens interests "girlie-men."

Now at the convention he stands up for George Bush (who many of his critics have written entire books on the subject of Bush and Cheney's corporate interests) and decides to call John Kerry and his supporters economic girlie men.

I don't think I need to point out where Arnold doing this just makes himself look like hes just an actor playing politician.

filtherton · 09-06-2004, 11:53 AM

Hey, the last actor-governer from california had "recollection problems" too. Nothing new here folks.

honestchipmunk · 09-06-2004, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by irateplatypus

these attempts to get the historical record right are just petty personal attacks aimed at distracting voters from the issues. who cares if there really were tanks there or not? the fact is that that is the way arnold remembers it and personal recollections should not be questioned when they are delivered by a high-profile politician.

Should not be questioned!? That is a tremendous amount of faith you have in the politicians who run this country. Are their other aspects of politics that should not be questioned? In fact, why question at all? If Arnold says he saw a TANK, which I think any of us would remember seeing as a kid, espeically in that place and time, and then historians say "Well, no, you couldn't have possibly seen a tank for these reasons: A, B and C." So that the more than likely truth of the matter was that there was not tank at all and that Arnold just lied through his capped teeth about something, why is that not both insulting and bush league? That's like me say running for governer of California and saying, "I grew up in the heat of gang warfare in Los Angeles County so I understand how to abate the problem of violent crime." When the truth of the matter is that, while I did grow up in LA County, I couldn't have been further away from gang warfare growing up in the Santa Clarita Valley, a lilly white suburb! Would you want me to be governer if I was elected to be "tough on crime" on the strength of claims like that? Hell no! And that's why it matters when politicians lie and that's why that should not be acceptable, even when you really like what they are saying because it makes you look reallly good. Its political sleeze either way, you just have a decision as to whether or not you're covered in it.

irateplatypus · 09-06-2004, 12:32 PM

just to make it clear to all: my tongue is firmly planted in my cheek. i'm sorry if that wasn't apparent.

seretogis · 09-06-2004, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by filtherton

Hey, the last actor-governer from california had "recollection problems" too. Nothing new here folks.

That is incredibly tasteless. Alzheimer's isn't a joke.

filtherton · 09-06-2004, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seretogis

That is incredibly tasteless. Alzheimer's isn't a joke.

Next you're going to say that i've dishonered the experiences of every alzheimer's victim out there, right? My apologies to all whom i've offended.

Strange Famous · 09-06-2004, 01:54 PM

filtherton is right, at the end of the day... Arnold is an actor - and most of his life he has been famous for being a not very good one at that.

His father was a high rankng member of the SA, its not surprising his family was scared after the war... no one will probably ever know now what his father might or might not be guilty of... but we know the sort of organisations that the SA and SS were... I too wondered about all the comments about Austria being communist, my understanding was that Russia had no influance in Austria after 1946... but I didnt want to say when I first read it because Im not an expert.

In fairness, its not a Republican or Democratic issue, a lot of politicians seem to suffer from these false memories... in essense its not really that different from John Kerry saying he loves baseball but naming his favourite player of his favourite team as someone who never played for them... just in Arnie's case it was a premeditated fantasy, rather than a spur of the moment bluff... and it is a subject it is rather more distasteful to lie about.

Rekna · 09-06-2004, 01:58 PM

Why is it that if a republican lies it is "ohh come on stop nitpicking" but if a democrat lies it is "Impeach Impeach!"

And don't even say "Clinton was under oath". What kind of a message is that? It is ok to lie as long as you are not under oath? Thats BS.

filtherton · 09-06-2004, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rekna

Why is it that if a republican lies it is "ohh come on stop nitpicking" but if a democrat lies it is "Impeach Impeach!"

And don't even say "Clinton was under oath". What kind of a message is that? It is ok to lie as long as you are not under oath? Thats BS.

Yeah, clinton could have just written it off as a "recollection issue".

Ken Starr:"Did you have sexual relations with monica lewinsky?"

Bill Clinton:"I don't recall whether i did or not."

Case closed.

MSD · 09-06-2004, 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strange Famous

surely it is an issue if a politician is caught in a lie?

Not really. Most people in this country are quite apathetic and only see what they want to see in candidates. Most vote on party lines and believe that their party can do no wrong. The finger of God could point at a candidate and a booming voice could say, "Vote for this man or I will smite you!" and on election day, they'll have to pay janitors overtime to sweep up every other voter and pour water on them so as not to start a garbage can fire.

hannukah harry · 09-06-2004, 07:18 PM

SF, the whole clinton thing, while done under the pretense of perjury, was really about him getting a blow job. basically, republicans wanted to use whatever they could to hurt him with, and it just ended up being perjury. if it was just lying, most people, even your every day republicans, wouldn't have really cared. but throw a sex scandal in there, and the media will have a field day helping push things along.

archer2371 · 09-06-2004, 08:12 PM

And yet, I haven't seen that many people get in such a tizzy over John Kerry's recollection problems that he took bike-rides through East Berlin. Perhaps the more Conservative on-line journals did, but not too many mainstream news sources did. And this... is from CNN and the AP? I would expect better from established news sources. Did Ahnohld tell a fib, perhaps, but so did John Kerry, and these fibs are not worth the time and energy of conversation.

Seaver · 09-06-2004, 08:24 PM

Quote:

And don't even say "Clinton was under oath". What kind of a message is that? It is ok to lie as long as you are not under oath? Thats BS.

No it's not ok, but it's only illegal if it's under oath.

Stupid? Yes.
Waste of money? Yes
Fully legal? Absolutely

hannukah harry · 09-06-2004, 09:02 PM

seaver,
out of curiousity, when being sworn into a public office, don't you, under oath, swear to hold that office with integrity? wouldn't lying to the public be a violation of that oath?

xepherys · 09-07-2004, 09:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kjroh

Apparently if you can confuse history then "You too are a REPUBLICAN!"...

His speech was none the less pretty entertaining.

You might be a Republican if... ?

*sorry*

The Phenomenon · 09-07-2004, 11:59 PM

Its sad that things like this happen, because 99% of the people who heard his speech will never look up the facts.

For 99% of the people who heard his speech, he DID see tanks in the streets.

Thats pathetic, if it can be proven that the politician outrigth lied they should be fined.

Its damn disgusting to me :/

smooth · 09-08-2004, 12:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Phenomenon

Its sad that things like this happen, because 99% of the people who heard his speech will never look up the facts.

For 99% of the people who heard his speech, he DID see tanks in the streets.

Thats pathetic, if it can be proven that the politician outrigth lied they should be fined.

Its damn disgusting to me :/

What's even more pathetic to me is the notion that him seeing communist tanks in another country 50 years ago (allowing your worst case scenario that fiction becomes reality in the minds of 99% of the audience that night) would somehow be relevant or impugn a man running for presidency today (who also happens to have a history of fighting communists).

vinmag7 · 09-11-2004, 02:42 PM

and what's worst is that even when people find out they won't care because he's are-nuld. it's kind of scary

09-05-2004, 10:19 PM	#1 (permalink)
nanofever Huzzah for Welcome Week, Much beer shall I imbibe. Location: UCSB	Schwarzenegger and the big lies he told at the RNC http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/....ap/index.html "VIENNA, Austria (AP) -- Austrian historians are ridiculing California Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger for telling the Republican National Convention that he saw Soviet tanks in his homeland as a child and left a "Socialist" country when he moved away in 1968. Recalling that the Soviets once occupied part of Austria in the aftermath of World War II, Schwarzenegger told the convention on Tuesday: "I saw tanks in the streets. I saw communism with my own eyes." No way, historians say, challenging Schwarzenegger's knowledge of postwar history -- if not his enduring popularity among Austrians who admire him for rising from a penniless immigrant to the highest official in America's most populous state. "It's a fact -- as a child he could not have seen a Soviet tank in Styria," the southeastern province where Schwarzenegger was born and raised, historian Stefan Karner told the Vienna newspaper Kurier. Schwarzenegger, now a naturalized U.S. citizen, was born on July 30, 1947, when Styria and the neighboring province of Carinthia belonged to the British zone. At the time, postwar Austria was occupied by the four wartime allies, which also included the United States, the Soviet Union and France. The Soviets already had left Styria in July 1945, less than three months after the end of the war, Karner noted. "Let me tell you this: As a boy, I lived for many years across the street from where the Russians were based in Vienna -- and honestly, I never saw a Russian tank there," retiree Franz Nitsch said Friday. "He said it all on purpose -- and that's bad." In his convention address, Schwarzenegger also said: "As a kid, I saw the Socialist country that Austria became after the Soviets left" in 1955 and Austria regained its independence. But Martin Polaschek, a law history scholar and vice rector of Graz University, told Kurier that Austria was governed by coalition governments, including the conservative People's Party and the Social Democratic Party. Between 1945 and 1970, all the nation's chancellors were conservatives -- not Socialists. What's more, when Schwarzenegger left in 1968, Austria was run by a conservative government headed by People's Party Chancellor Josef Klaus, a staunch Roman Catholic and a sharp critic of both the Socialists as well as the Communists ruling in countries across the Iron Curtain. Schwarzenegger "confuses a free country with a Socialist one," said Polaschek, referring to East European Communist officials' routine descriptions of their countries as Socialist. Polaschek saw the moderate Republican governor's recollections at the convention as a tactical move. Schwarzenegger, he said, was "using the old Communist enemy image for Bush's election campaign." "He did not speak as a historian, after all, but as a politician," Polaschek said. Norbert Darabos, a ranking official of Austria's opposition Social Democratic Party, sharply criticized Schwarzenegger's "disdain for his former homeland." "The Terminator is constructing a rather bizarre Austria image," he said. But many ordinary Austrians seemed to be in a forgiving mood Friday over the gaffes. "Maybe he has a wrong recollection -- it's so many years since he left," said Wilma Fadrany, 32, a Vienna waitress. "There must be political reasons for such comments," she said. "You've got to tell the (convention delegates) what they want to hear in order to win them over. Politicians always talk the way it fits into their agenda.'" Arnold is clearly playing on old fears about the big, bad, dead Soviet menace to get undecided voters to vote for Bush. I wish he would speak about why Bush should be re-elected instead of pushing such blatant lies on the American public. I think that this kind of deception is all about what Karl Rove wanted for the RNC. This speech and Miller's seem to be the paradigm of what Rove wanted for his convention, lies which sound wonderful but breakdown under the slightest scrunity. I was hoping for a convention that highlighted the good things which Bush has done for the contry, and yet, I recieved a convention where decption was the watchword. __________________ I'm leaving for the University of California: Santa Barbara in 5 hours, give me your best college advice - things I need, good ideas, bad ideas, nooky, ect. Originally Posted by Norseman on another forum: "Yeah, the problem with the world is the stupid people are all cocksure of themselves and the intellectuals are full of doubt."

09-06-2004, 06:35 AM	#2 (permalink)
Blackthorn Beware the Mad Irish Location: Wish I was on the N17...	Apparently if you can confuse history then "You too are a REPUBLICAN!"... His speech was none the less pretty entertaining. __________________ What are you willing to give up in order to get what you want? Last edited by kjroh; 09-06-2004 at 05:06 PM..

09-06-2004, 06:59 AM	#3 (permalink)
sailor beauty in the breakdown Location: Chapel Hill, NC	If that's true, its pretty disturbing. Not really surprising that something like that would come from any politician, but you still don't have to like it. Im still wondering how good of a job he really does and how many people like him just because he's Ah-nuld. __________________ "Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws." --Plato

09-06-2004, 07:13 AM	#4 (permalink)
irateplatypus can't help but laugh Location: dar al-harb	these attempts to get the historical record right are just petty personal attacks aimed at distracting voters from the issues. who cares if there really were tanks there or not? the fact is that that is the way arnold remembers it and personal recollections should not be questioned when they are delivered by a high-profile politician. democrats cannot win on the issues so instead they unleash their well-oiled austrian attack machine. just because these austrians (all wealthy donors to the kerry campaign no doubt) were actually there and witnessed these events doesn't mean they have the right to question arnold when he makes political hay out of poorly recollected memories. this just sickens me people. __________________ If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves. ~ Winston Churchill

09-06-2004, 10:03 AM	#7 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	surely it is an issue if a politician is caught in a lie? __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas

09-06-2004, 08:17 AM	#6 (permalink)
cj2112 Unbelievable Location: Grants Pass OR	hmmmmm once again we have politicians on both sides lying about what they remember....does this really surprise anyone?

09-06-2004, 11:26 AM	#9 (permalink)
crthiel Upright	That and about a month ago Arnold was in the news calling California politicians whow put corporate interests over working class citizens interests "girlie-men." Now at the convention he stands up for George Bush (who many of his critics have written entire books on the subject of Bush and Cheney's corporate interests) and decides to call John Kerry and his supporters economic girlie men. I don't think I need to point out where Arnold doing this just makes himself look like hes just an actor playing politician.

09-06-2004, 11:53 AM	#10 (permalink)
filtherton Junkie Location: In the land of ice and snow.	Hey, the last actor-governer from california had "recollection problems" too. Nothing new here folks.

09-06-2004, 12:32 PM	#12 (permalink)
irateplatypus can't help but laugh Location: dar al-harb	just to make it clear to all: my tongue is firmly planted in my cheek. i'm sorry if that wasn't apparent. __________________ If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves. ~ Winston Churchill

09-06-2004, 01:54 PM	#15 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	filtherton is right, at the end of the day... Arnold is an actor - and most of his life he has been famous for being a not very good one at that. His father was a high rankng member of the SA, its not surprising his family was scared after the war... no one will probably ever know now what his father might or might not be guilty of... but we know the sort of organisations that the SA and SS were... I too wondered about all the comments about Austria being communist, my understanding was that Russia had no influance in Austria after 1946... but I didnt want to say when I first read it because Im not an expert. In fairness, its not a Republican or Democratic issue, a lot of politicians seem to suffer from these false memories... in essense its not really that different from John Kerry saying he loves baseball but naming his favourite player of his favourite team as someone who never played for them... just in Arnie's case it was a premeditated fantasy, rather than a spur of the moment bluff... and it is a subject it is rather more distasteful to lie about. __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas

09-06-2004, 01:58 PM	#16 (permalink)
Rekna Junkie	Why is it that if a republican lies it is "ohh come on stop nitpicking" but if a democrat lies it is "Impeach Impeach!" And don't even say "Clinton was under oath". What kind of a message is that? It is ok to lie as long as you are not under oath? Thats BS.

09-06-2004, 07:18 PM	#19 (permalink)
hannukah harry Junkie	SF, the whole clinton thing, while done under the pretense of perjury, was really about him getting a blow job. basically, republicans wanted to use whatever they could to hurt him with, and it just ended up being perjury. if it was just lying, most people, even your every day republicans, wouldn't have really cared. but throw a sex scandal in there, and the media will have a field day helping push things along. __________________ shabbat shalom, mother fucker! - the hebrew hammer

09-06-2004, 08:12 PM	#20 (permalink)
archer2371 Sarge of Blood Gulch Red Outpost Number One Location: On the front lines against our very enemy	And yet, I haven't seen that many people get in such a tizzy over John Kerry's recollection problems that he took bike-rides through East Berlin. Perhaps the more Conservative on-line journals did, but not too many mainstream news sources did. And this... is from CNN and the AP? I would expect better from established news sources. Did Ahnohld tell a fib, perhaps, but so did John Kerry, and these fibs are not worth the time and energy of conversation. __________________ "This ain't no Ice Cream Social!" "Hey Grif, Chupathingy...how bout that? I like it...got a ring to it." "I have no earthly idea what it is I just saw, or what this place is, or where in the hell O'Malley is! My only choice is to blame Grif for coming up with such a flawed plan. Stupid, stupid Grif."

09-06-2004, 09:02 PM	#22 (permalink)
hannukah harry Junkie	seaver, out of curiousity, when being sworn into a public office, don't you, under oath, swear to hold that office with integrity? wouldn't lying to the public be a violation of that oath? __________________ shabbat shalom, mother fucker! - the hebrew hammer

09-07-2004, 11:59 PM	#24 (permalink)
The Phenomenon Psycho Location: I think my horns are coming out	Its sad that things like this happen, because 99% of the people who heard his speech will never look up the facts. For 99% of the people who heard his speech, he DID see tanks in the streets. Thats pathetic, if it can be proven that the politician outrigth lied they should be fined. Its damn disgusting to me :/

09-11-2004, 02:42 PM	#26 (permalink)
vinmag7 Upright	and what's worst is that even when people find out they won't care because he's are-nuld. it's kind of scary