Support the President - That's what I'll be doing after the election. - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

ARTelevision · 09-03-2004, 11:46 AM

I'm chagrined about the trend in thinking that holds that it is more important to take all opportunities to express dissapointment over one's personal and often unrealistic expectations than it is to voice support for the Commander in Chief, our President. I don't see the nobility of that high horse through the self-serving exercise in ego that it often appears to be.

I've been thinking that what is almost as crucial today as destroying terror and the reasons for it, protecting ourselves as a nation, and providing for the general prosperity is the need for a whole new generation of individuals to become educated to the fact that it matters very little who is in office - because the responsibilities are awesome and the real-world choices are few for any leader. American foriegn policy is American foriegn policy. Those who experienced both parties' tenure during the conduct of the Vietnam war can attest to this.

And so, In some perverse way, I am starting to think it would be a good education for people who think that GWB is the reason "the world hates us" and we are in such apparantly sad shape as his critics would have us believe (because of his policies) to have their candidate elected. This way they may gain some overarching understanding that their rhetoric does not indicate they have at the present.

As I stated, I will be supporting the President of the United States, no matter who that is, come November. It is more important to do exactly that than many people today seem to comprehend.

mb99usa · 09-03-2004, 11:55 AM

I agree with a lot of what you are saying Art. What bothers me about the current administration is that their message is "stay the course" regardless of where the course leads. They have been very clear that they feel their decisions have been "right" and they are unapologetic when proven to be wrong (WMDs for example). Since when has it become "weak" to admit a mistake? I have always been taught and truly believe that the best lessons come from mistakes, but to learn from them one must admit that a mistake was made.

I don't know if Kerry is the answer but he offers a change and that is all I'm looking for.

Scipio · 09-03-2004, 11:57 AM

I'm under no illusions that John Kerry will likely make mistakes, or do things that I don't agree with. As you note, that comes with the territory, and Bush isn't the exceptional fuckup that a lot of shrill partisans think he is.

I'm pretty moderate, and I realize those things.

Here's what I'm willing to promise: I'll support Bush when he does things that I agree with, and that are in the best interest of the country. I'll try to be understanding when he does things that will work, but that aren't the things I would have done. Finally, I'll defend him when he's unfairly criticized, even if it's by friends or members of my party.

I hope that I've lived up to those three principles these four years, but it's never an easy or natural thing to do for someone who's a solid democrat, as I am.

However, I'm committed to the democratic process. It's competitive by design. It's important for the president to be questioned and doubted at every turn, as that's how we maintain the public trust. If you disagree with that, then perhaps democracy is not for you. I will never refuse the right to dissent, and to question, but I will always respect what the will of the majority.

mml · 09-03-2004, 12:07 PM

I said this on another post, but it was in response to Art's commnets.

In regards to Art's comments about loyalty and respect to the Office of the President, I could not agree more. I do, however, count myself as a member of the loyal opposition, and will call out my President when I think he is doing wrong. Blind loyalty is the death knell of democracy.

ARTelevision · 09-03-2004, 12:17 PM

Well, for myself, since there are so many people - in fact it is a very popular mindset, especially among my peers (white, well-educated, upper-middle class, intellectual, creative, whatever), where it is the norm - who seem to get a real sense of personal empowerment out of voicing their opposition to things that our government does, I consider it a worthwhile position for me to take that supporting the home team is a good thing to do.

Bill O'Rights · 09-03-2004, 12:20 PM

Art, ya moved it on me.

Oddly enough...I would agree with you for once, Art. Although, to some extent, that which you've described has been a thorn in the system for longer than you or I have been alive, I believe that Rush Limbaugh honed it to a razor sharp edge in the 90's, under the Clinton administration. Nothing that Bill could do was right, and every evil under the sun could be directly attributed to him. For good or for bad, Limbaugh is a very effective orator. He swayed the public into believing that his rhetoric was gospel. A modern day Pied Piper, millions marched to the tune that he sang. To be branded a liberal, even the very suggestion of it, was akin to a Scarlet Letter. Some perverse form of McCarthyism. "Are you now, or have you ever been a (gasp) Liberal? Burn Witch!" Now, after eight years of "Clinton bashing", the Liberals are, in turn, using the same arrows that were flung at them, and hurling them toward the Bush administration. Turn about is fair play? Maybe. But, in all honesty, enough is enough. Somewhere out there is the ideal man for the position of President of the United States. A true leader. A statesman...not a politician. I don't believe that we'll ever see him though. Were I he...I wouldn't raise my head above the trenches. To much mud flying. Who wants to be subjected to that scrutiny. And besides, who doesn't have a skeleton, or two, in their closet?

filtherton · 09-03-2004, 12:23 PM

I'll support the president when i agree with what he does. The presidency doesn't entitle one to respect beyond the normal pomp. That is not what democracy is about. There is a difference between valid criticism and partisan swipage.

maleficent · 09-03-2004, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill O'Rights

there is the ideal man ?

ahem.... or Woman...

This election has made me very tired... I used to love arguing politics -- It was fun -- It's not fun anymore....

Whomever gets elected -- they will have my full support... Respect? Not necessarily, but the support will be there...

ARTelevision · 09-03-2004, 12:27 PM

Yes, exactly.
I'd like to see a new trend.
That's why I'm starting to think it may be the right time for the opposition to take the wheel. I'm not about to cast my vote their way - but that's my personal choice.

However, if this man, John Kerry, wins. You bet I will be supporting him as our Commander in Chief and our President.

Hopefully some will see the good sense in this sort of thing.

Lebell · 09-03-2004, 12:28 PM

I am not an "America, love it or leave it" type of person, but there is also a point where continued bickering hurts us all.

Come November, I'll support whoever is president, because that is best for the country.

I will also continue to push the issues I support and discourage things that I don't.

Any other course is Anarchy.

powerclown · 09-03-2004, 12:28 PM

I also will support the President - whoever it may be - barring anything incredible.

Bill O'Rights · 09-03-2004, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maleficent

ahem.... or Woman...

touché

kutulu · 09-03-2004, 12:37 PM

I don't think we should have to support the President. The Republicans gave us 8 years of Clinton bashing and it isn't over. They take potshots are Bill and Hillary whenever they can. Meanwhile, you have delegates at the convention handing out purple band-aids. The Republicans don't have a track record of giving support or respect to the other party but in the last 4 years how many times have we heard them say that we should?

Fuck that. I'll be critical of everything Bush does. I support looking into every detail and disecting every little decision he makes. Why don't we bring it up another notch and start poking fun at Laura Bush too like the conservatives did with Hillary? How about we go after the drunk ass Bush twins like they had with Chelsea (although it is true that they were soft on Chlesea for a while, it didn't last the whole time, if she had been caught with a fake ID Rush would have been all over her)? If they can dish it out when they are out of power, they should be prepared to take it back when they have the power.

I guarantee you that the mainstream Republican talking heads wouldn't be calling out that we should support John Kerry if he gets elected. They'll do the same bullshit they did to Clinton.

Democrats need to stop being pussies; sitting back while they smear us. Give it back 10 times over. See how they like it. This election and Presidential term has been a start, but it's nowhere near where it needs to be to fully oppose the right wing machine.

*Edit - I think it's great that many people here are ready to let bygones be bygones, but I'm just not there yet. Maybe by the next election I will be, but not now.

MSD · 09-03-2004, 12:45 PM

I'll be glad to support the president until that person takes action that severely conflicts with my code of ethics. If Bush, Kerry, or anyone else goes and bombs a country without provocation, I will not support that action. If a president commits an impeachable offense, I will not hesitate to argue that the president should be impeached. If (actually, more like "when") Bush wins again, I'll be willing to give him a clean slate in my mind. However, I won't support someone who does not deserve my support and respect.

I'll support the president if not doing so would be harmful to the country, just as I have turned around and given my full support to the Iraq war for the sake of both our (coalition) troops and the Iraqi people, even though I was opposed to starting the war.

honestchipmunk · 09-03-2004, 01:00 PM

Check out this article on dissent: http://www.religionwriters.com/publi...03/040703a.doc

note the quote by Teddy Roosevelt:
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."

Dissent and criticism are desperately necessary, especially for a country founded by religious and political dissenters! The lack of political cohesion may make you angry but bear in mind the alternatives, where we would have to go along with what the government did, or be punished. What needs to come up in politics to aid our country is a truer sense of compromise between opposing views, not blind faith in whoever has power.

kutulu · 09-03-2004, 01:16 PM

There's no way in hell Bush will get to start over with a clean slate with me if he wins. Getting re-elected doesn't forgive him for attacking gays, pushing class warfare, fucking up the environment, and all the Iraq BS.

boatin · 09-03-2004, 01:21 PM

I'm not sure what "support the President" means. I agree that to "take all opportunities to express dissapointment over one's personal and often unrealistic expectations" is not effective, useful, proffesional or mature.

But where is the line? I talked with someone yesterday who clearly feels not voting for Bush is 'not surpporting the President in times of war'. That is too far for me. Listening to the convention, there were many who agreed with that person.

I'm not in favor of piling on, and making fun of Bush at every opportunity, but where do you draw the line? Drawing it at NEVER critiqueing, lauging, questioning, criticising or condemning actions (no matter how egregious) doesn't work for me.

This bears a resemblance to "supporting our troops". In the early days of the war, I was told (in RL, and on this board) I was unpatriotic - and unsupportive of our troops - for being against the war. What a slap in the face.

Same question applies: What does "support" mean?

Lebell · 09-03-2004, 01:40 PM

To repeat,

There is constructive dissent and then there is cutting off one's nose to spite one's face.

Stompy · 09-03-2004, 01:42 PM

Considering it was Bush and his administration that started the trend on playing with others' fears when it comes to terrorism, I can't really agree with any of this.

Unless... there are credible source stating that it was the fault of the US govt as a whole that started it all.

tecoyah · 09-03-2004, 01:42 PM

When GWB was elected...I issued him a certain level of respect, above that which I would give to virtually anyone, simply because of the level of responsibility he was taking on. This is the same amount I have given to all four presidents I have had in my adult life.
Respect is given by myself, and must be maintained, grown, or lost. Mr Bush (and his administration) have managed to lose all that I had to give, this is not an easy task. I have no problem supporting something of worth, and to a certain extent that which is less than acceptable (if I can see a future correction), I see neither in this cabinet. I cannot continue to support the obvious(to me) failings, and blindness of our current administration. As I have stated before , I am of no party, However I will be voting democratic this election for the first time in my life. I do this in an attempt to prevent the likely damage I foresee to our republic. For those who cannot (or will not) put the pieces together, that spell out the future direction we are headed, I do not fault you, nor do I completely understand you. This is my own failing, and frequenting this board is of great help in this reguard.
Mine is a rant of frustration, and limited fear. For I do not know where my rights will stand in four years, and I have never had to worry about this before, in America. I only hope I can respect my president again, whomever that may be. Even Clinton left office with more honor in my eyes.....and he was a dog.

OpieCunningham · 09-03-2004, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ARTelevision

I'm chagrined about the trend in thinking that holds that it is more important to take all opportunities to express dissapointment over one's personal and often unrealistic expectations than it is to voice support for the Commander in Chief, our President. I don't see the nobility of that high horse through the self-serving exercise in ego that it often appears to be.

I've been thinking that what is almost as crucial today as destroying terror and the reasons for it, protecting ourselves as a nation, and providing for the general prosperity is the need for a whole new generation of individuals to become educated to the fact that it matters very little who is in office - because the responsibilities are awesome and the real-world choices are few for any leader. American foriegn policy is American foriegn policy. Those who experienced both parties' tenure during the conduct of the Vietnam war can attest to this.

And so, In some perverse way, I am starting to think it would be a good education for people who think that GWB is the reason "the world hates us" and we are in such apparantly sad shape as his critics would have us believe (because of his policies) to have their candidate elected. This way they may gain some overarching understanding that their rhetoric does not indicate they have at the present.

As I stated, I will be supporting the President of the United States, no matter who that is, come November. It is more important to do exactly that than many people today seem to comprehend.

This is a very strong nationalistic viewpoint.

Personally, I don't feel strongly one way or the other what you should or should not do. But it seems like you are advocating assent for the sake of assent due to some perception of too much dissent.

I imagine you must have some line which the President must cross in order for you to withdraw your support. You don't mention the existence of such a line, but without it, you would indeed be advocating blind support - which is nothing more than dictatorship (whether term-limited or not).

By default, I do not offer my support to the President, regardless of who he is. There are essentially 2 reasons for this:

1- The numbers game: It is my opinion that the vast majority of American's offer their support for the President. Often with complete disregard for his policies. Therefore, if I can take the opportunity to offer dissent, it is of great benefit to the entire country by virtue of increasing the level of debate over the level of nodding heads.
2- The America of Perfection: If the goal of America is to constantly strive for perfection, to constantly seek to improve our country - the only possible value in refraining from dissent is the ethereal concept of Unity. The concept that we are stronger (and therefore better) because so many of us stand together. I don't see how group-think, as a uniter, equates to better policies and actions. It might make us more resolute, but it could make us more resolute in implementing poor policies just as much as it could make us more resolute in implementing quality policies. In essence, unity is only valueable if we're united behind something good and it is extremely dangerous if we are united behind something bad.

Personally, I find America to be exceptionally misguided. I have a line - it is very narrow and it is very close at hand. If the goal of an American is to try and form a more perfect union, we have a LONG way to go and we won't get there by supporting unity behind mistakes.

Stompy · 09-03-2004, 01:49 PM

tecoyah hit the nail right on the head.

Quote:

Mine is a rant of frustration, and limited fear. For I do not know where my rights will stand in four years, and I have never had to worry about this before, in America.

My feelings exactly. Most people aren't fully aware of world history and the fact that our current situation is startlingly similar to that of certain events in the past that ended up a complete disaster. Because of this, my fear is a bit more than limited. I am seriously terrified of another 4 years under Bush.

I will have officially lost all respect for this country if it turns out that the people vote Bush in for another 4 years. Ah, the look in people's eyes 4 years from now when they realized what they've done..

ARTelevision · 09-03-2004, 03:51 PM

As most of you know by now, I have no interest at all in convincing anyone of anything. Nor do I expect anyone to do things that I do. In fact, it's quite the opposite. Because I am aware there are large numbers of people here and everywhere who feel it their noble duty to dissent, I see a vacuum where positions such as I have taken here have a space to fill.

Please continue exercising your inclination to judge and dissent and withdraw your support from things that do not meet your standards - I know you will anyway. I simply prefer other standards for myself and I think a little movement in this direction - a bit of a trend even - would be a healthy thing for the state of our union.

P.S. Some of us who hold positions similar to the one I ennunciate here are fully aware of world history.

Halx · 09-03-2004, 04:12 PM

There comes a point where everything the president does rips at your every fiber of being... you cannot find any justification whatsoever in supporting him.

Rdr4evr · 09-03-2004, 04:22 PM

If Bush is re-elected president, I will not support him. He has done nothing for this country except take it in the wrong direction and make it a more likely target for hate as well as terrorism.

ARTelevision · 09-03-2004, 04:28 PM

Understood. I wouldn't expect one so ripped at the core of one's being to support the man. A word of caution might be in order though. To have one's being in such a state of vulnerability over the actions of an individual whose power is constitutionally and politically limited to the degree the President of the United States' power is limited, may indicate an inability to accept the actions of any individual who acts in this capacity. If that be the case, the real problem could be one's sensitivities and/or unreasonable expectations.

In any event, this was my initial point. I am beginning to think that it may be crucial for the education and evolution of understanding of our citizens that GWB be removed from office - only so that our we may come to understand that he was not the problem. Unless we get a handle on the real problems we face, we may continue the delusion that they are GWB's fault.

OpieCunningham · 09-03-2004, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ARTelevision

I have no interest at all in convincing anyone of anything.

I think a little movement in this direction - a bit of a trend even - would be a healthy thing for the state of our union.

That seems rather contradictory, assuming you would act on behalf of what you believe is healthy for the state of our union.

You're expressing your opinion and then stating that you do not wish to convince anyone of the value of your opinion and then stating that if more people held your opinion, the country would be better off.

It sounds as if you are surrounded by people who dissent. You might think about heading to the Mid West for a bit and surrounding yourself with people who do not. It may, in fact, not be a healthy thing overall for this country if more people decline to dissent - it may simply be healthy for your immediate surroundings.

Journeyman · 09-03-2004, 04:41 PM

Daily Thoughts

Quote:

Originally Posted by ARTelevision

What is the use of running when we are on the wrong road?

Bavarian proverb

I'd just like to point out that when other people say "Vote for the lesser of two evils," I do consider GWB to be an evil person, whilst I consider John Kerry to be a good person. I would not support a president who I neither voted for nor agree with in the manner of which he executes his duties.

ARTelevision · 09-03-2004, 04:48 PM

OpieCunningham, I say what I mean. I do not say what you mean. I do not respond to things I have not said.

Halx · 09-03-2004, 04:48 PM

You're saying that just because my personal sensitivities happen to run across where the president has marked his territory by pissing upon the ground there, it's my problem.

I totally disagree.

There is such thing as being considerate. As a member of society, you are required to be considerate to others, no matter what office you were elected (or in this case, NOT elected) to. The president has in no way shown any consideration for the opinions represented by my half of the population. On top of that, he is doing the job that appeals to the other half of the population VERY POORLY.

Humans are not self-contained animals. They possess empathy and communal responsibility. Some more than others. To feel hurt when one's fellows are slighted is not a weekness, for if nobody felt as such, there would be no such thing as a community, a state or a nation. Leaders are borne of the sympathy they feel for others. It is those who involve themselves for the benefit of others that ultimately make our society the great civilization that it is.

So, if you're telling me that it's MY problem that the buffoon in office is rubbing me raw worse than 75-grit sandpaper, I've got a big middle finger to show to your line of logic.

ARTelevision · 09-03-2004, 04:50 PM

Journeyman, the "Daily Thoughts" thread is a place for posting the words of others. The words of others that I quote there are not intended as my own words or my own thoughts. I understand your statement, however in relation to the Bavarian Proverb.

ARTelevision · 09-03-2004, 04:53 PM

Yes, Halx. I used conditional statements because I have no certainty that my interpretations are the case for any particular individual. I typically speak in generalities to avoid personal tete-a-tete.

tecoyah · 09-03-2004, 05:02 PM

*Tecoyah sees the brick wall, dives to the side before impact...and rolls out of sight*

OpieCunningham · 09-03-2004, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ARTelevision

I typically speak in generalities to avoid personal tete-a-tete.

This is also a useful tool to say one thing which is so vague that you can switch your viewpoint as suits your needs without fear of contradicting yourself.

ARTelevision · 09-03-2004, 05:35 PM

I'll try to restate for clarity.

I don't care if you support the President. I respect your reasons for not doing so.

Since there is so much opposition to this President, I am moved to state that I support the President of the United States, no matter who holds that position. I will support John Kerry if he becomes the President.

I also think it would be a good thing if more people held similar views because there is a very popular counter trend existing at the moment - and it has gone far enough. That's my opinion.

I see the ways this forum is used by partisan individuals and I have an interest in using it in a different way.

tecoyah · 09-03-2004, 05:40 PM

We are not all partisan Art....some of us simply fear the effects of another Bush/Cheney term. I could care less if they were Dems or Reps....they would still have failed me.

ARTelevision · 09-03-2004, 05:47 PM

Yes, tecoyah. I also see the way this forum is used by anti-Bush/Cheney individuals and, personally, I prefer to use it in another way.

OpieCunningham · 09-03-2004, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ARTelevision

I'll try to restate for clarity.

I'm confident I understood you the first time. I simply disagree with the concept of unity for the sake of unity.

Quote:

I also think it would be a good thing if more people held similar views because there is a very popular counter trend existing at the moment - and it has gone far enough. That's my opinion.

I really don't know what "far enough" means. My impression is that somewhere around 50% do not support the current President. Is that a sign of dissent going too far? Why?

Of course, it is your opinion and you're more then entitled to it.

You may feel that you have your finger on the pulse of the partisan and/or anti-Bush life blood of this forum. But I'm here mainly for the discussion of politics by means of expressing an opinion and digging into the various implications and details of that opinion. It doesn't benefit me if we're all just going to make a statement and then clam up about it.

ARTelevision · 09-03-2004, 06:24 PM

The fact is - and I have made it several times here - that we do not all do as I do. In fact nearly no one does what I do. That is why I do it. Please carry on and do what you do as well as you are able.

Halx · 09-03-2004, 06:27 PM

Art, your method of thinking is bothering me. It's as if you've run out of patience for people who hold different opinions than yours and are just like, "Will you just drop your point so we all can live in peace?"

I'm afraid happiness is not obtained by surrendering your will for the sake of stability. Humans will always fight for what they believe. There will always be unrest.

To give up your ego is not noble. It parallels the concept of learned futility. That's when an animal struggles until it realizes it cannot win, and just lays down and submits to the punishment. We see dogs chained to posts, their heads resting on the ground between their paws. Awww... how cute and pathetic.

That's not gonna be me.

09-03-2004, 11:46 AM	#1 (permalink)
ARTelevision I change Location: USA	Support the President - That's what I'll be doing after the election. I'm chagrined about the trend in thinking that holds that it is more important to take all opportunities to express dissapointment over one's personal and often unrealistic expectations than it is to voice support for the Commander in Chief, our President. I don't see the nobility of that high horse through the self-serving exercise in ego that it often appears to be. I've been thinking that what is almost as crucial today as destroying terror and the reasons for it, protecting ourselves as a nation, and providing for the general prosperity is the need for a whole new generation of individuals to become educated to the fact that it matters very little who is in office - because the responsibilities are awesome and the real-world choices are few for any leader. American foriegn policy is American foriegn policy. Those who experienced both parties' tenure during the conduct of the Vietnam war can attest to this. And so, In some perverse way, I am starting to think it would be a good education for people who think that GWB is the reason "the world hates us" and we are in such apparantly sad shape as his critics would have us believe (because of his policies) to have their candidate elected. This way they may gain some overarching understanding that their rhetoric does not indicate they have at the present. As I stated, I will be supporting the President of the United States, no matter who that is, come November. It is more important to do exactly that than many people today seem to comprehend. __________________ create evolution

09-03-2004, 11:55 AM	#2 (permalink)
mb99usa Keep on rolling. It only hurts for a little while. Location: wherever I am	I agree with a lot of what you are saying Art. What bothers me about the current administration is that their message is "stay the course" regardless of where the course leads. They have been very clear that they feel their decisions have been "right" and they are unapologetic when proven to be wrong (WMDs for example). Since when has it become "weak" to admit a mistake? I have always been taught and truly believe that the best lessons come from mistakes, but to learn from them one must admit that a mistake was made. I don't know if Kerry is the answer but he offers a change and that is all I'm looking for. __________________ So, what's your point? It's not an attitude, it's a way of life.

09-03-2004, 11:57 AM	#3 (permalink)
Scipio Mencken Location: College	I'm under no illusions that John Kerry will likely make mistakes, or do things that I don't agree with. As you note, that comes with the territory, and Bush isn't the exceptional fuckup that a lot of shrill partisans think he is. I'm pretty moderate, and I realize those things. Here's what I'm willing to promise: I'll support Bush when he does things that I agree with, and that are in the best interest of the country. I'll try to be understanding when he does things that will work, but that aren't the things I would have done. Finally, I'll defend him when he's unfairly criticized, even if it's by friends or members of my party. I hope that I've lived up to those three principles these four years, but it's never an easy or natural thing to do for someone who's a solid democrat, as I am. However, I'm committed to the democratic process. It's competitive by design. It's important for the president to be questioned and doubted at every turn, as that's how we maintain the public trust. If you disagree with that, then perhaps democracy is not for you. I will never refuse the right to dissent, and to question, but I will always respect what the will of the majority. __________________ "Erections lasting more than 4 hours, though rare, require immediate medical attention."

09-03-2004, 12:17 PM	#5 (permalink)
ARTelevision I change Location: USA	Well, for myself, since there are so many people - in fact it is a very popular mindset, especially among my peers (white, well-educated, upper-middle class, intellectual, creative, whatever), where it is the norm - who seem to get a real sense of personal empowerment out of voicing their opposition to things that our government does, I consider it a worthwhile position for me to take that supporting the home team is a good thing to do. __________________ create evolution

09-03-2004, 12:20 PM	#6 (permalink)
Bill O'Rights will always be an Alyson Hanniganite Location: In the dust of the archives	Art, ya moved it on me. Oddly enough...I would agree with you for once, Art. Although, to some extent, that which you've described has been a thorn in the system for longer than you or I have been alive, I believe that Rush Limbaugh honed it to a razor sharp edge in the 90's, under the Clinton administration. Nothing that Bill could do was right, and every evil under the sun could be directly attributed to him. For good or for bad, Limbaugh is a very effective orator. He swayed the public into believing that his rhetoric was gospel. A modern day Pied Piper, millions marched to the tune that he sang. To be branded a liberal, even the very suggestion of it, was akin to a Scarlet Letter. Some perverse form of McCarthyism. "Are you now, or have you ever been a (gasp) Liberal? Burn Witch!" Now, after eight years of "Clinton bashing", the Liberals are, in turn, using the same arrows that were flung at them, and hurling them toward the Bush administration. Turn about is fair play? Maybe. But, in all honesty, enough is enough. Somewhere out there is the ideal man for the position of President of the United States. A true leader. A statesman...not a politician. I don't believe that we'll ever see him though. Were I he...I wouldn't raise my head above the trenches. To much mud flying. Who wants to be subjected to that scrutiny. And besides, who doesn't have a skeleton, or two, in their closet? __________________ "I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony "Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

09-03-2004, 12:07 PM	#4 (permalink)
mml Adrift Location: Wandering in the Desert of Life	I said this on another post, but it was in response to Art's commnets. In regards to Art's comments about loyalty and respect to the Office of the President, I could not agree more. I do, however, count myself as a member of the loyal opposition, and will call out my President when I think he is doing wrong. Blind loyalty is the death knell of democracy.

09-03-2004, 12:23 PM	#7 (permalink)
filtherton Junkie Location: In the land of ice and snow.	I'll support the president when i agree with what he does. The presidency doesn't entitle one to respect beyond the normal pomp. That is not what democracy is about. There is a difference between valid criticism and partisan swipage.

09-03-2004, 12:27 PM	#9 (permalink)
ARTelevision I change Location: USA	Yes, exactly. I'd like to see a new trend. That's why I'm starting to think it may be the right time for the opposition to take the wheel. I'm not about to cast my vote their way - but that's my personal choice. However, if this man, John Kerry, wins. You bet I will be supporting him as our Commander in Chief and our President. Hopefully some will see the good sense in this sort of thing. __________________ create evolution

09-03-2004, 12:28 PM	#10 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	I am not an "America, love it or leave it" type of person, but there is also a point where continued bickering hurts us all. Come November, I'll support whoever is president, because that is best for the country. I will also continue to push the issues I support and discourage things that I don't. Any other course is Anarchy. __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate!

09-03-2004, 12:28 PM	#11 (permalink)
powerclown Junkie Location: Detroit, MI	I also will support the President - whoever it may be - barring anything incredible.

09-03-2004, 12:37 PM	#13 (permalink)
kutulu Junkie	I don't think we should have to support the President. The Republicans gave us 8 years of Clinton bashing and it isn't over. They take potshots are Bill and Hillary whenever they can. Meanwhile, you have delegates at the convention handing out purple band-aids. The Republicans don't have a track record of giving support or respect to the other party but in the last 4 years how many times have we heard them say that we should? Fuck that. I'll be critical of everything Bush does. I support looking into every detail and disecting every little decision he makes. Why don't we bring it up another notch and start poking fun at Laura Bush too like the conservatives did with Hillary? How about we go after the drunk ass Bush twins like they had with Chelsea (although it is true that they were soft on Chlesea for a while, it didn't last the whole time, if she had been caught with a fake ID Rush would have been all over her)? If they can dish it out when they are out of power, they should be prepared to take it back when they have the power. I guarantee you that the mainstream Republican talking heads wouldn't be calling out that we should support John Kerry if he gets elected. They'll do the same bullshit they did to Clinton. Democrats need to stop being pussies; sitting back while they smear us. Give it back 10 times over. See how they like it. This election and Presidential term has been a start, but it's nowhere near where it needs to be to fully oppose the right wing machine. Edit - I think it's great that many people here are ready to let bygones be bygones, but I'm just not there yet. Maybe by the next election I will be, but not now. Last edited by kutulu; 09-03-2004 at 12:40 PM..*

09-03-2004, 12:45 PM	#14 (permalink)
MSD The sky calls to us ... Super Moderator Location: CT	I'll be glad to support the president until that person takes action that severely conflicts with my code of ethics. If Bush, Kerry, or anyone else goes and bombs a country without provocation, I will not support that action. If a president commits an impeachable offense, I will not hesitate to argue that the president should be impeached. If (actually, more like "when") Bush wins again, I'll be willing to give him a clean slate in my mind. However, I won't support someone who does not deserve my support and respect. I'll support the president if not doing so would be harmful to the country, just as I have turned around and given my full support to the Iraq war for the sake of both our (coalition) troops and the Iraqi people, even though I was opposed to starting the war.

09-03-2004, 01:00 PM	#15 (permalink)
honestchipmunk Upright	Check out this article on dissent: http://www.religionwriters.com/publi...03/040703a.doc note the quote by Teddy Roosevelt: "To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." Dissent and criticism are desperately necessary, especially for a country founded by religious and political dissenters! The lack of political cohesion may make you angry but bear in mind the alternatives, where we would have to go along with what the government did, or be punished. What needs to come up in politics to aid our country is a truer sense of compromise between opposing views, not blind faith in whoever has power. __________________ I'm only a ghost, the breeze on your face when you first smell the coast.

09-03-2004, 01:16 PM	#16 (permalink)
kutulu Junkie	There's no way in hell Bush will get to start over with a clean slate with me if he wins. Getting re-elected doesn't forgive him for attacking gays, pushing class warfare, fucking up the environment, and all the Iraq BS.

09-03-2004, 01:21 PM	#17 (permalink)
boatin Psycho	I'm not sure what "support the President" means. I agree that to "take all opportunities to express dissapointment over one's personal and often unrealistic expectations" is not effective, useful, proffesional or mature. But where is the line? I talked with someone yesterday who clearly feels not voting for Bush is 'not surpporting the President in times of war'. That is too far for me. Listening to the convention, there were many who agreed with that person. I'm not in favor of piling on, and making fun of Bush at every opportunity, but where do you draw the line? Drawing it at NEVER critiqueing, lauging, questioning, criticising or condemning actions (no matter how egregious) doesn't work for me. This bears a resemblance to "supporting our troops". In the early days of the war, I was told (in RL, and on this board) I was unpatriotic - and unsupportive of our troops - for being against the war. What a slap in the face. Same question applies: What does "support" mean?

09-03-2004, 01:40 PM	#18 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	To repeat, There is constructive dissent and then there is cutting off one's nose to spite one's face. __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate!

09-03-2004, 01:42 PM	#19 (permalink)
Stompy Banned from being Banned Location: Donkey	Considering it was Bush and his administration that started the trend on playing with others' fears when it comes to terrorism, I can't really agree with any of this. Unless... there are credible source stating that it was the fault of the US govt as a whole that started it all. __________________ I love lamp.

09-03-2004, 01:42 PM	#20 (permalink)
tecoyah Illusionary	When GWB was elected...I issued him a certain level of respect, above that which I would give to virtually anyone, simply because of the level of responsibility he was taking on. This is the same amount I have given to all four presidents I have had in my adult life. Respect is given by myself, and must be maintained, grown, or lost. Mr Bush (and his administration) have managed to lose all that I had to give, this is not an easy task. I have no problem supporting something of worth, and to a certain extent that which is less than acceptable (if I can see a future correction), I see neither in this cabinet. I cannot continue to support the obvious(to me) failings, and blindness of our current administration. As I have stated before , I am of no party, However I will be voting democratic this election for the first time in my life. I do this in an attempt to prevent the likely damage I foresee to our republic. For those who cannot (or will not) put the pieces together, that spell out the future direction we are headed, I do not fault you, nor do I completely understand you. This is my own failing, and frequenting this board is of great help in this reguard. Mine is a rant of frustration, and limited fear. For I do not know where my rights will stand in four years, and I have never had to worry about this before, in America. I only hope I can respect my president again, whomever that may be. Even Clinton left office with more honor in my eyes.....and he was a dog. __________________ Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

09-03-2004, 03:51 PM	#23 (permalink)
ARTelevision I change Location: USA	As most of you know by now, I have no interest at all in convincing anyone of anything. Nor do I expect anyone to do things that I do. In fact, it's quite the opposite. Because I am aware there are large numbers of people here and everywhere who feel it their noble duty to dissent, I see a vacuum where positions such as I have taken here have a space to fill. Please continue exercising your inclination to judge and dissent and withdraw your support from things that do not meet your standards - I know you will anyway. I simply prefer other standards for myself and I think a little movement in this direction - a bit of a trend even - would be a healthy thing for the state of our union. P.S. Some of us who hold positions similar to the one I ennunciate here are fully aware of world history. __________________ create evolution

09-03-2004, 04:12 PM	#24 (permalink)
Halx Please touch this. Owner/Admin Location: Manhattan	There comes a point where everything the president does rips at your every fiber of being... you cannot find any justification whatsoever in supporting him. __________________ You have found this post informative. -The Administrator [Don't Feed The Animals]

09-03-2004, 04:22 PM	#25 (permalink)
Rdr4evr Banned	If Bush is re-elected president, I will not support him. He has done nothing for this country except take it in the wrong direction and make it a more likely target for hate as well as terrorism.

09-03-2004, 04:28 PM	#26 (permalink)
ARTelevision I change Location: USA	Understood. I wouldn't expect one so ripped at the core of one's being to support the man. A word of caution might be in order though. To have one's being in such a state of vulnerability over the actions of an individual whose power is constitutionally and politically limited to the degree the President of the United States' power is limited, may indicate an inability to accept the actions of any individual who acts in this capacity. If that be the case, the real problem could be one's sensitivities and/or unreasonable expectations. In any event, this was my initial point. I am beginning to think that it may be crucial for the education and evolution of understanding of our citizens that GWB be removed from office - only so that our we may come to understand that he was not the problem. Unless we get a handle on the real problems we face, we may continue the delusion that they are GWB's fault. __________________ create evolution

09-03-2004, 04:48 PM	#29 (permalink)
ARTelevision I change Location: USA	OpieCunningham, I say what I mean. I do not say what you mean. I do not respond to things I have not said. __________________ create evolution

09-03-2004, 04:48 PM	#30 (permalink)
Halx Please touch this. Owner/Admin Location: Manhattan	You're saying that just because my personal sensitivities happen to run across where the president has marked his territory by pissing upon the ground there, it's my problem. I totally disagree. There is such thing as being considerate. As a member of society, you are required to be considerate to others, no matter what office you were elected (or in this case, NOT elected) to. The president has in no way shown any consideration for the opinions represented by my half of the population. On top of that, he is doing the job that appeals to the other half of the population VERY POORLY. Humans are not self-contained animals. They possess empathy and communal responsibility. Some more than others. To feel hurt when one's fellows are slighted is not a weekness, for if nobody felt as such, there would be no such thing as a community, a state or a nation. Leaders are borne of the sympathy they feel for others. It is those who involve themselves for the benefit of others that ultimately make our society the great civilization that it is. So, if you're telling me that it's MY problem that the buffoon in office is rubbing me raw worse than 75-grit sandpaper, I've got a big middle finger to show to your line of logic. __________________ You have found this post informative. -The Administrator [Don't Feed The Animals]

09-03-2004, 04:50 PM	#31 (permalink)
ARTelevision I change Location: USA	Journeyman, the "Daily Thoughts" thread is a place for posting the words of others. The words of others that I quote there are not intended as my own words or my own thoughts. I understand your statement, however in relation to the Bavarian Proverb. __________________ create evolution

09-03-2004, 04:53 PM	#32 (permalink)
ARTelevision I change Location: USA	Yes, Halx. I used conditional statements because I have no certainty that my interpretations are the case for any particular individual. I typically speak in generalities to avoid personal tete-a-tete. __________________ create evolution

09-03-2004, 05:02 PM	#33 (permalink)
tecoyah Illusionary	Tecoyah sees the brick wall, dives to the side before impact...and rolls out of sight __________________ Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

09-03-2004, 05:35 PM	#35 (permalink)
ARTelevision I change Location: USA	I'll try to restate for clarity. I don't care if you support the President. I respect your reasons for not doing so. Since there is so much opposition to this President, I am moved to state that I support the President of the United States, no matter who holds that position. I will support John Kerry if he becomes the President. I also think it would be a good thing if more people held similar views because there is a very popular counter trend existing at the moment - and it has gone far enough. That's my opinion. I see the ways this forum is used by partisan individuals and I have an interest in using it in a different way. __________________ create evolution

09-03-2004, 05:40 PM	#36 (permalink)
tecoyah Illusionary	We are not all partisan Art....some of us simply fear the effects of another Bush/Cheney term. I could care less if they were Dems or Reps....they would still have failed me. __________________ Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

09-03-2004, 05:47 PM	#37 (permalink)
ARTelevision I change Location: USA	Yes, tecoyah. I also see the way this forum is used by anti-Bush/Cheney individuals and, personally, I prefer to use it in another way. __________________ create evolution

09-03-2004, 06:24 PM	#39 (permalink)
ARTelevision I change Location: USA	The fact is - and I have made it several times here - that we do not all do as I do. In fact nearly no one does what I do. That is why I do it. Please carry on and do what you do as well as you are able. __________________ create evolution

09-03-2004, 06:27 PM	#40 (permalink)
Halx Please touch this. Owner/Admin Location: Manhattan	Art, your method of thinking is bothering me. It's as if you've run out of patience for people who hold different opinions than yours and are just like, "Will you just drop your point so we all can live in peace?" I'm afraid happiness is not obtained by surrendering your will for the sake of stability. Humans will always fight for what they believe. There will always be unrest. To give up your ego is not noble. It parallels the concept of learned futility. That's when an animal struggles until it realizes it cannot win, and just lays down and submits to the punishment. We see dogs chained to posts, their heads resting on the ground between their paws. Awww... how cute and pathetic. That's not gonna be me. __________________ You have found this post informative. -The Administrator [Don't Feed The Animals]