Ruse

I don’t understand why everyone has gotten down so much on France on the issue of their involvement in Iraq... they are not only closer to Iraq and have a higher Middle Eastern population but have also recently, within the last year, had been trying to outlaw Religious Attire in schools in France. As you can imagine, this didn't go over well with people of Middle Eastern descent. With all this going on added with the bombs going off in train stations in Spain (and having also found bombs in French train stations train stations) I can see exactly why they didn’t just jump on the bandwagon with Dubya and go head first into what almost seems like a NeoCrusade.

seretogis

France has been despised by some long before Iraq. As for their actions regarding Iraq, their "we will veto no matter what" statement coupled with the exposure of their illegal dealings with Saddam for oil puts them in a very bad light.

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seretogis - sieg heil
perfect little dream the kind that hurts the most, forgot how it feels well almost
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filtherton

France never did anything america wouldn't do in its place.

MR_WALLACE

I agree 100% filtherton.

http://www.geocities.com/~worldwar1/.../rumsfeld.html

The National Security Archive at George Washington University in February 2003 published on the Web a series of declassified US documents detailing the US embrace of Saddam Hussein in the early 1980's, including the renewal of diplomatic relations that had been suspended since 1967.

The documents show that during this period of renewed US support for Saddam, he had invaded his Iran, had long-range nuclear aspirations that would "probably" include "an eventual nuclear weapon capability," harbored known terrorists in Baghdad, abused the human rights of his citizens, and possessed and used chemical weapons on Iranians and on the Kurds in his own country.

The US response was to renew ties, to provide intelligence and aid to ensure Iraq would not be defeated by Iran, and to send a high-level presidential envoy named Donald Rumsfeld to shake hands with Saddam (20 December 1983).

The declassified documents include the briefing materials and diplomatic reporting on two Rumsfeld trips to Baghdad, and decision directives signed by President Reagan that reveal the specific US priorities for the region: preserving access to oil, expanding US ability to project military power in the region, and protecting local allies from internal and external threats

seretogis

Right.. we made a mess, and are cleaning it up. I don't see France or Russia taking any responsibility for contributing to Saddam's regime -- I see them taking advantage of an oil-for-food program and trying to block us diplomatically from unseating a corrupt dictator.

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seretogis - sieg heil
perfect little dream the kind that hurts the most, forgot how it feels well almost
no one to blame always the same, open my eyes wake up in flames

smooth

Seretogis,

To be perfectly honest, I don't know what the French are doing in their country. I only know what the media and politicians over here present as their position, which may or may not jibe with street reality.

For all I, or anyone else over here knows, the French and Russian people may be taking all kinds of heat and/or responsibility from their local media and/or elected officials/one another for their parts. We may be being given a one-sided portrayal in order to 'other' those we might otherwise agree and unite with.

For example, if the common people over there and the common people over here were united in their opposition of supporting rogue regimes, we might be more effective in stopping our respective governments from engaging in such behavior. Put this way, you might understand why I think various entities have a vested interest in ensuring we don't see what they are criticizing their government for.

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"You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman

seretogis

When I refer to France and Russia, I am referring to their governments, which are accountable to the French and Russian people.

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seretogis - sieg heil
perfect little dream the kind that hurts the most, forgot how it feels well almost
no one to blame always the same, open my eyes wake up in flames

smooth

I was confused by your use of the term, 'them,' which implied that you were referencing a composite whole. I suspect you would take umbrage at someone else characterizing our nation's entire political machine by the words or perceptions of a single, or even small group, of person(s).

We still only know what Putin 'says' by the sound bites provided to us. We have no idea the context, politically or socially, that surrounds whatever one-liners we are privy to. Suffice it to say, I don't feel comfortable declaring what the French or Russians, government or otherwise, are feeling or saying about these issues based on the limited coverage we have of foreign affairs.

We also have experience that indicates government officials are not always, directly or indirectly, accountable to the 'people.' I also find it interesting that when the public does something many people over here don't agree with or understand, then the people's decisions aren't so respectable anymore.

__________________
"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann

"You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman

filtherton

We made a mess, we've made many messes. We're only "cleaning it up" because it is politically expedient for the current leadership. Did you loathe america as much as you apparently loathe the french and the russians during the entire span of time between the rumsfeld/saddam embrace and our invasion? The time when we made the mess and were not cleaning it up?

ARTelevision

Differences on particular positions aside, it should be stated that the French and the Americans are historical allies and will remain so for the forseeable future. I think it's about time to focus on that fact.

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create evolution

OpieCunningham

If only we would each stop disagreeing with the other.

Dyze

You HAVE to respect a countries sovereignity. If they don't want to have anything to do with a war then it's just logical that they will not get involved in it in any way.

Dyze

That's true. I'm spending an exchange year here and I am happy to see that all the prejudices about the stupid, ignorant and war-loving Americans were just wrong.

Seaver

editted out

Dyze

I'm just throwing my 2 cents everywhere, but, NO. This wasn't illegal in any way. It may have been kinda unorganised but not illegal.

Seaver

Paperwork found of Saddam donating $25 million to Chirac's personal reelection campaign IS illegal under the oil for food.

Ruse

It would be ignorant to say the the US, or most any other country for that matter, has never had illegal dealings with other countries and/or people.. the only problem is that there usually isn't the exposure there so you don't hear about it as often.

xepherys

To put in my few cents, it mostly seems to be that Americans tend to believe the French to be snobbish, which has been my personal experience with the French. Their culture breeds distinct clique-ishness with their policies to protect the origin of their language and all. That isn't a bad thing on it's own, understand me... It's just one of many things.

Also, in NE U.S., we deal a lot with Quebec natives... or the dreaded French-Candian. Due to requirements that any product sold retail in their province must, by law, be printed in French (along with English) and other things such as the general snobbishness of many Quebecians, Americans tend to just disregard the French altogether on many occasions.

Also, the helping them through WWI and WWII, and getting not much back (don't even start on the Statue of Liberty) hasn't helped.

Zeld2.0

To be honest the same could be said of Germany and indeed the entire world...

Actually your post probably illustrates the biggest thing - many people dislike the French simply because it is so ingrained in popular American culture now whether or not they really believe or agree with everything.

Its like whether or not you know anything about WW2, it seems most everyone has heard that "we saved France's ass in WW1 and WW2," which is easily a big debatable topic.

But they're such common beliefs and thoughts now that valid or not, they're accepted and its a usually a mutual dislike which is funny because in the end, as long as your money is good, who cares

matthew330

Absolutely Xephyrs. The only country in Europe that would openly humiliate a foreigner with the audacity to try to speak their language.

...and we DID respect their sovereignty. We didn't fly over their air space. It wasn't a war, we were going after a terrorist, what in the world their motivation for their decision could have been other than to be a thorn in our sides is beyond me.

I've been to Paris. Their reputation precedes them. They are pompous, arrogant, asses.

roachboy

xephrys: on your "historical" claims, read the rest of the thread--you are at best misinformed.

more generally:

it is interesting that folk are so willing to make firm decisions about an entire country based on tourist interactions. particularly given that the same folk would be undoubtedly snippy as hell about the reverse happening to them as americans.

this and the persistance of the right's damage control line floated after the unsc rejected the obviously fradulent american attempt to justify pre-emoptive war by blaming france would be funny were they not so tiresome.

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spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

xepherys

I would have to disagree... France is, by far, more of a pain in the ass than Germany or (most) of the rest of the world. As for you last statement in my quote above, I know quite a bit of WWII history, and I'd be shocked if you can find a debatable point that says we DIDN'T save their asses (along with the rest of Europe's with the help of England and Russia).

roachboy

xepherys (cool name, btw): the outline of what i would say in response to your misreading of ww2 is in no. 22 on this thread.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

xepherys

*shrug* We let it happen, and we (the people) will have to fix it. That is how this country works.

I wasn't aware that the anti-French sentiment was recent. Long before Freedom fries, I remember a pretty noticeable distate for the French (and French-Canadians, at least in Michigan). Snarky? Excellent word! )

Agreed!

Where have you heard this bullshit story? That's never been what I've read or been taught. As for the French, specifically in WWII, When did Russia move West of the Elbe? I can't recall (or find on any map) where they did to any useful extent. After Kursk, they basically were able to push through Poland and into Germany. That was about the bulk of it. The effect that had on the war? HUGE! The effect it had directly on France? NONE! *shrug* I've never been taught to think that the US was the end-all of WWII, not even in the military. England, Russia and the U.S. (also to include Canada on D-Day) worked together from different angles, with different strategum and were able to overcome the Nazis, with a great loss to ALL countries involved. I can't say I've ever heard anyone argue that...

Again, I've never heard this aspect of history told the way you say... I've never been taught, read of, or thought that the French were cowards, at least in the sense again of WWII. The resistance was primarily Socialist, though I'm not sure about Communist, however when was this erased? Most books that revolve primarily around D-Day and the U.S. in France talk deeply about the French resistance. It's even made it to Hollywood in such films as Band of Brothers, where one city is protrayed as having resistance memebers willing to help the U.S. "any way we can". Sounds brave enough to me.

I would say that the Nazis are construed as, if anything, zealots... ideology-CRAZED, not ideology-less. The overall views, even direct from Germans alive today from that time period is that it was brainwashing in an indirect way. Hitler was in power long before he attacked Poland. His youth groups, his public policies, his social reforms all led to the people loving him. He was charismatic, and many of the things he did really WERE great for his people. Aside from being a crazed warmongerer, bent on the destruction of Jews, he wasn't a bad guy (note the off sarcasm there). I'm not saying I'm a fan of the guy, but before the attack on Poland, and further attrocities that were commited, what he did for Germany was outstanding. The people really BELIEVED what he did was best for them, even throughout much of WWII. Besides, anyone who thinks that the U.S. Propoganda machine within the media is bad (which it is), the Nazi regime media propaganda was NOTORIOUS. Never before or since has there been such single-sided slanting of the truth, not even in the good ol' U S of A.

I probably have other points, but these seem to make me feel good for now.

matthew330

for 3 years i lived 20 minutes from the French border in Bitburg, Germany. Their reputation is well deserved.

roachboy

i lived 5 years in france, mostly in paris, matthew.
my experience there has no relation to yours.
do you speak any french?
i did find that the main thing that divided kinds of treatment meted out, particularly to americans, was the ability to speak (or at least try to speak) french.

tourist areas of paris apart, of course. but i did not find it any different than the kind of shit you get in almost any tourist area, if you struggle with the language. try getting anyone to not be an ass to you in philadelphia around the liberty bell, or in any tourist-heavy area of nyc, if you dont speak english. same deal.

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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

matthew330

...so we had different experiences. I have vivid memories of being humiliated (well, my dad anyway - i was 12 at the time) in a resteraunt for trying to order something off the menu, made fun of by the waiter for not knowing the french money and apparently not tipping enough - at which point, surprise, the fuckin waiter knew how to speak english the entire time.

Every experience i recall from France is vastly different from every other country i remember visiting during my years there. They fit the bill of everything i had ever heard about them - rude, arrogant assholes.

From what i've seen Americans in general are curious when they see foreigners. Want to know where they are from, what it's like there, what brought them over there.

But whatever, we saw different things. I certainly won't argue that your experience has no relation to mine, I just remember the French taking pleasure in humiliating those "trying to speak their language."

Zeld2.0

I generally take isolated experiences for a grain of salt given that in my own country I have had assholes make fun of me or others either for appearance or action

Actually, thats pretty common even now to see random guys driving around and making fun of someone's driving or ethnicity (maybe mocking an accent)

And the WW2 thing has been addressed xephyrs by me - i'm no fucking retard about WW2 and indeed history has been one of the biggest things for me throughout - its not that we didn't save their asses, its that people forget that they were instrumental in our nation's founding. The debate is whether they owe us a lot or they owe us little to none now.

archer2371

I don't argue that the French were not an essential part in forming our nation. They did help out a great deal, because it was in their national interest to form a trading ally with a neighbor that wasn't controlled by its arch-nemesis, the British Crown. I attribute the split with the French to almost two hundred years ago. First the Washington Administration sent Ambassador John Jay to England to obtain a commerce treaty, because the newly formed government and its people still relied heavily on trade with England. This infuriated France, they saw it as a slap in the face. Unfortunately, the situation in France was volatile at best and it seemed as if there was a new government forming every few months. Now, after the Adams Administration was elected, they recalled James Monroe in order to put in place a more favorable Federalist Delegation. Pinckney was already there, but the French would never talk to him. So Adams sent in John Marshall and Elbridge Gerry, and basically the French tried to buy off the United States. At first, President Adams tried to keep Marshall's report from reaching the public because he knew that it would incite warmongering in the brand new nation that was not necessary. Not to mention that it would bring back George Washington whom he knew would want the Federalist Pariah Alexander Hamilton as his second in command with a new standing army. However, one of the most notorious newsmongers in the nation, James Thomson Callender unwittingly brought the XYZ Affair in the public view which, much to the dismay of his republican compatriots made Adams a popular President. Eventually, the anti-Federalists fell out of favor in the public eye, because they were very sympathetic to the French. So basically, that sentiment against France has remained in the United States for over two hundred years. It's nothing new.
Now for your reading pleasure, sources! (Very basic ones though, for a more in depth reading, I suggest the Anti-Federalist Papers and Scandalmonger by William Safire)

The XYZ Affair

Jay Treaty Info

James Thomson Callender

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Ruse

Sorry guys, hate to be the bearer of bad news, but there are assholes everywhere. It seems like if you had just one bad experience with a French person mixed with the existing image of the French that you just associate that one bad image with every single one. Lets face it, we all know assholes where we live and they're not all French. Get over it.

As for the WWII argument, that seems like the only decent argument out there to me. France fell to Germany within a week. We unded up pulling their asses out of the fire along with the rest of Europe with the combined force of the US, England, and Russia. Some might say that it was our job as allies to do that and I have no argument there. My only problem was that they made no attempt to repay the losses that we had while trying to recover what they gave away, seemingly, so willingly.

matthew330

I'm certainly over it. I just told one experience. If you'd like me to write 3 pages worth of 3 years of experience, I don't care enough do do it. Point being, as a neighbor of france for 3 years, an ample period of time to challenge any preconcieved notions of the people as a whole, i can't think of one pleasant experience i had there. And i was 12 years old. Whoah, the eifle tower..cool, check that out, huh...who's this asshole making fun of my family for being american.

Personal experiences coupled with your WWII argument, well...French people suck. Of course, on an individual basis - that stereotype is easy enough to break, it just hasn't happend yet.

tspikes51

Guys, don't forget that we fought Vietnam for them too... Vietnam was a French territory before WWII, and they were afraid of it getting taken over by the communists. I was just wondering, originator of this thread, what country are you from??? I am good friends with a German citizen/resident that says that most Germans, and for that matter, many Europeans don't like the French either. It just seems to me that they think that they are better than everybody else, but as soon as there's somebody with an army knocking at their door, their first resort is letting somebody else bail them out.

JBX

They are pussys that's why

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james t kirk

Quebecians???

WTF?

I think you mean, "Quebecers" in English, or "Quebecois" en francais.

As far as products being sold in Quebec having to be printed in French and English, uh, that's the same for the entire country of Canada. Not just Quebec.

I would imagine that it makes good sense.

Like General Motors for example. They have a new car coming out in the states called the Buick "Lacrosse" That one got a few giggles in Quebec since "Lacrosse" in Quebec is a slang term for masturbation.

james t kirk

It's precisely this kind of American BULLSHIT that makes the rest of the world think Americans can be such total imbeciles sometimes. You don't hear any other country in the world forever launching into the old tired refrain, "we saved your asses twice"

Exactly what do you want the French to do? Suck your cock forever because you think they somehow owe you for WW2? No-one likes to be constantly reminded that you somehow owe them a debt and that as far as you are concerned, you can never repay it anyway. It just doesn't work that way.

I sometimes think that the French irritate Americans so much because the French think that they are better than you, and you think that you are better than the French. When they are not in awe in any way shape or form of the fact that you are American, you think them arrogant. How arrogant.

whocarz

Wrong. I hate to defend the French, but you are wrong. France was invaded on 5/10/1940 and capitulated on 6/22/1940. That's just a bit longer than less than a week. They also seriously got the shit kicked out of them. French Casualties for WW2 (most of which came in 1940 when the Germans invaded): 201,568 killed in action, 400,000 wounded. United States Casualties (this is for both theaters): 291,557 killed in action, 670,846 wounded. The numbers are quite similar, yet the French fought for 43 days while the US fought for roughly 3 years. They were slaughtered. As I've said before, the German blitzkreig strategy simply overwhelmed their enemies, and France was no different. We were lucky, because by the time we went in, they had stopped using blitzkreig and had reverted to using defensive lines much like the Maginot line. Please educate yourself a bit more before you make such silly claims.

Also WRONG. The French left Vietnam in 1956, after the debacle at Dien Bien Phu nearly two years earlier. The siege of Dien Ben Phu lasted for 170 days. The French had a cumulative total of 15,709 men, of whom only 3,290 came home alive, many which died in prison camps after the battle. The Viet Mihn had somewhere on the order of 100,000 men, of which they took 8,000 KIA (some works estimate 12,000 KIA and 20 to 30,000 WIA) 15,000 to 20,000 WIA of whom a great number certainly must have died from the results of poor medical care. We did not "bail" the French out of Indochina. We went in almost 8 years after they left.

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Ustwo

I was starting to write a massive post about why I think the French act well ... French.

Its pretty pointless, so I’ll spell out the key hypothesis on why they act French.

Massive inferiority complex.

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JumpinJesus

I, too, was stationed in Bitburg.

However, you and I had different experiences. I spent many, many, many days in Luxembourg and France and found the french only to be rude to obnoxious Americans, of which there seemed to be an endless supply.

I made friends who were Spanish, Italian, Belgian, French, and German while I lived there. They would often complain to me, "If we go to America, they demand we speak English. When they visit our country, they demand we speak English. Why don't Americans learn OUR language for once?"

The stereotype of Americans for many Europeans is that we're loud and obnoxious. We don't do much to dispel that stereotype.

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