Dyze

I am not an American but I want to understand this: Why do so many Americans not like the French?

The explanation I get is that the US helped the French out in WW1 and WW2 and the French, among others, declined to go to Iraq.
If America would have been attacked, the French, German, the United Nations and the NATO would have supported the US.
You might say now, damn dude, the US HAVE been attacked. But, which country attacked them? Not the Iraq. There is no proven link between Al Queeda and the Iraq. Osamistan doesn't exist, the extremists hide everywhere from the Middle East to Western Europe.
Of course Iraq was a totalitarian regime like the 3. Reich, and the people there were happy to get rid of Hussein but thats a different story.
So, is there anything I don't know about the French/American relations that I don't know?
And I don't want to hear some unqualified crap or lies from f*ckfrance.com or other questionable sources.

shakran

you've pretty much hit the nail on the head. By the way, the difference between going after Hitler and going after Saddam is that Hitler actually declared war on us, and with his V2 rockets he had a real chance of actually being able to strike at us. War with him was justified. Saddam didn't declare war on us, and Hitler's V2 rockets were far and away superior to Saddam's little toy missiles that couldn't even travel 100 miles. In short, the dude was not a threat to us, hitler was.

As for why some americans hate france, let's not beat around the Bush. It's because they're idiots. They've bought into the president's bullshit statement way back before the war started that "anyone who is not with us, is against us." They then bought into the president's bullshit about renaming food with "french" in it (freedom toast on Air Force One, freedom fries, etc).

Are they really mad at france? Probably not. They're just sheep who are following the leader no matter what he does or says.

If they are mad at france, then they're unamerican because France chose not to get involved, and freedom of choice is supposed to be an american value. How we can invade a sovereign nation to impose american values on it while making a pariah out of another nation for expressing american values is beyond me.

djtestudo

It seems like something very simple to me.

The French have always looked down upon American culture, and American citizens. As a result, they have been a subject of ridicule in the US for years.

Along comes the Iraq war, and the French decide to not only stay out, but fight us in the UN. This affects the American view of the French negatively. It also doesn't help that in America it is believed that the French owe us something for the fact that we saved their nation in the Second World War, and helped do the same in the First World War; or the rumors that have surfaced about the French having illegal deals with Saddam Hussain which affected their reasoning.

It doesn't have to do with being sheep or BS like that, but with a view that has become imbedded in our culture that has manifested itself in the current Francophobia. Fortunatley it seems to have died down (thank God, because if I actually went into a restaurant that served "freedom" fries or toast, it would quickly get a drink from a Molotov cocktail).

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Lebell

There is long history, beyond Iraq, that accounts for the love/hate affair between France and America.

Many people say that France looks down on America because they resent losing their prominance on the world stage and America in turn, looks down on the French because of it.

Also, French and American economic interests are often at odds.

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shakran

Except that this statement isn't true. Don't believe everything you see in the movies. I've been there and never ran into one snooty french person. The only people that got funny looks were the idiot americans who were running around yelling out catchphrases in phony french accents. And hey, if you wanna make a total jackass out of yourself, then you should expect to be treated like one.

Yeah, you're right I guess. God forbid you should stand up for what you believe in. That simply ain't right! We Americans just don't cotton to that kinda behavior do we?

And that viewpoint is total crap. Gee, think maybe we owe 'em something for helping us get our freaking country started? Or have we forgotten the assistance they gave us against Britain despite the GREAT danger it put them in (back then Britain was not exactly a wuss country and they had a lunatic king and a long history of conquering anyone that pissed them off).


Yeah I think it does. We're a nation of followers who don't want to think for ourselves. That's why people are still saying Iraq was full of terrorists. They sure aren't saying that because they examined the evidence, since there isn't any evidence to support that claim. They're saying it because the president said it.

Frankly the uproar against france wasn't materially different from that one geeky kid in middle school that everybody picked on. Everyone ELSE is beating up on france so we'd better do it too.

It's the herd mentality. Unfortunate though it may be, the country is chock full of sheep and has very few shepards.

Journeyman

There's a conception that French citizens are phenomenally rude to American tourists (maybe even immigrants). So a lot of us have a sort of attitude of "Well fuck you, then!" I've never been to France, but I've met some Frenchmen and have yet to meet one I didn't like.

jrclark

Eh, just wanted to interject a bit of history here.

The V2 was not an ICBM (a missile with intercontential range). The devolpment of the ICBM along with the reduction in size of the necular warhead was what started the cold war.
Rather, we entered we fully entered the second world war because if Hiler had taken Europe he would be in a nearly invincible position. With the west conqured he would be able to focus on the Russian front instead of fighting a two front war. Beyond this is just speculation, but with Europe under control and Russia either beaten or occupied Amercia would have been the last remaing enemy. Dwarfed by the combined might of the Germany, Italy, and Japan we wouldn't have stood a chance.
The official reason we were able to enter WWII was because of the attack on Pearl Harbor. The public outcry resulting from it's bombing put public support behind going to war and allowed the President to bring the US into WWII.

Sorry about the long winded essay, just wanted to clear up some misconceptions. I'm pretty sure all of the above is correct, if not let me know .

~jrclark

Mojo_PeiPei

Shakran even a hardcore "frog hater" like myself doesn't hold France's lack of action in regards to Iraq against them, more just the way they went about it and all the illegal deals they had going in the background.

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Mephisto2

jrclark,

You're both right and wrong.

The V2 was, as you say, not an ICBM. The United States was never, EVER in danger from German rockets.

However, the US did not enter the war to help defeat Nazi Germany because it feared a strengthened Axis power in a conquered and consolidated Europe. It dis so because Hitler declared war on the United States. There is quite a bit of politics mixed up in all this, including an anti-war congress, pro-interventionist President, pro-isolationist public etc, but that's the general ghist of it.

Let me also just add one more comment. Even a victorious Nazi Germany was unable to mount an invasion of the United Kingdon, just 20 miles across the Channel, as 95% of all military historians agree and historical fact proves, do you really think they could attack the United States across the Atlantic Ocean?

Mr Mephisto

shakran

Actually Mr. M we did it because Hitler declared war on us, AND because we looked at the V2, knew they were working on V3 and 4, and that 4 would probably be able to hit us

MageB420666

well, time to get this thread back on topic.

I am an American and I do not hate the French. I actually quite like the French. On the two week trip I took there I only had one person be rude, which is a lot less than what I have experienced here. I person find the idea of "freedom" fries to be one of the stupidest things ever. I actually believe the french were right in not helping us invade Iraq. I do think that Saddam needed to be taken out, we just needed to be honest and admit we did it to get at the oil, not because he had WOMD.

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jrclark

heh, my bad (just looked it up again) but you're right:

Dec 7, 1941 - Japanese bomb Pearl Harbor; Hitler issues the Night and Fog decree.
Dec 8, 1941 - United States and Britain declare war on Japan.
Dec 11, 1941 - Germany declares war on the United States.

But Britain probably would have fallen if the US hadn't stepped in when we did. If we hadn't been sending supply ships to Britan even before we officially entered the war it would have fallen much earlier. Once again correct me if I'm wrong, and sorry about thread jacking .

Dyze

Hm, I haven't heard so much about that lately. Is there any link to an essay/proof ?

---
Mr Mephisto, it's true that Germany at that time couldn't conquer the UK, but by having the most powerful submarine fleet, they could have isolated Britain, deploy troops and invade a weakened Britain.

And I am sure they had plans for attacking America during the following years.

But we switched the topic. I appreciate your comments so far!

Mojo_PeiPei

I'm too tired to look up anything right now. I just remember awhile back Bill O' Reilly reaming the French on his show after American soldiers found some anti-tank missles that were illegal for Iraq to have and that were dated from as late as 03'.

Plus there is oil for food scandal.

And backdoor oil/military/various infrastructure contracts.

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Zeld2.0

Heh good one

The correct timeline is December 7, 1941 - Japan attacks Pearl Harbor and declares war on the U.S.

December 8, 1941 - U.S. declares war on Japan in a near unanimous vote (only one dissenting vote - in fact, the first female in the House and the only one to vote against both WW1 and WW2 - a pacifist)

December 11, 1941 - Hitler honors the treaty that formed the Axis (tri-partite IIRC) in that he will declare war on the enemy of his ally - the U.S. in return declares war

The time in between these two was a period of debate over what to do with Germany - after all, though there were U-Boat incidents earlier, no other hostilities have engaged and after all, only Japan attacked - when Hitler declared war, he spared Congress the task of debate and they proceeded to declare war to kick his ass.

And at the time, the V2 wasn't exactly known in the U.S. - in fact, it wasn't even used and was still being developed at that time.

The bigger concern, though known only by a few select people (the President in specific, a few major high ranking generals, and top scientists) at the time was the threat of a possible German atom bomb. It was all theoretical at the time of course, but by the time war had been declared, FDR had already allowed for money to go into what would be the Manhattan Project.

That was a far bigger concern - Hitler wouldn't have to invade the UK or the US if he had one of those babies.

And if you want to know a cool fact, before WW2 began, the U.S. had already drafted a war plan called RAINBOW.

In it, there was a theoretical attack on the U.S. in one of its territories - namely the Philippines or Hawaii - by Japan. With the possible aggression in both Europe and Asia, Germany was the enemy in Europe.

The plan called for Germany first, then Japan.

So actually, much of why we went to war, had already long been planned out - it was just a big shock to actually even have the war in the first place.

Pacifier

fight? to be of another opinion that the US is "fighting" them?
geez, its still like kindergarten ...


A penetration depth chart of the Me 264 from May 12, 1944
Note: penetration depth equals half range.
http://www.luft46.com/prototyp/264-6.jpg

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whocarz

Shakran you are so wrong about the Vengence weapons it isn't funny. June 13th, 1944 was the first time a Vengence weapon was used on the British. The Brits first learned that the krauts were working on them in December 1942, which was a full year after we declared war on Germany. By this point, US troops were already fighting German troops in N. Africa. The maximum range of both the V-1 and V-2(or A-4) was 200 miles, hardly enough to reach America. The difference was that the V-2 had a slightly larger payload than the V-1. The Germans WERE working on 6 newer versions of the rocket when the war ended, however, the best only managed to double the elder rockets' range (to 400 miles) and decrease flight time to 17 minutes. So, no, the Vengence weapons had not a damn thing to do with the United States declaring war on Germany.

http://www.angelfire.com/ct/ww2europe/v.html

As to American's feelings about France, I will say this. As long as I have remembered, there has been the feeling that they are/were cowards, or what have you, thanks to their less than stellar war record since Napolean's glory days ended. It has become much more pronounced ever since they opposed us invading Iraq. Frankly (no pun intended), neither country is doing much to repair relations with one another.

I will admit that the frogs did help us greatly with our war for independence, however, I don't think it was because they were being alturistic. Rather, they enjoyed watching us being a thorn in the side of their age old enemy, the British. Fact is, we only "won" the war because we were being difficult enough that when the French and the British started warring again, the Brits just said "Fuck it, we'll deal with you later." Then you have the War of 1812, which was basically the British coming back saying "Ok, that thing with the French has died down thanks to their own revolution, we want our colony back." That didn't turn out too good for the Brits.

So then along comes The Great War, and amazingly, the Brits and French are working together! I mean, these two warred on and off for the past 1,000 years, and now, English troops are in France, fighting with the French against the Germans! WOW! All the old kings must have been turning in their graves. Basically, both sides kicked the shit out of each other, thanks to new technology and outdated tactics. They are in a stalemate, with the Germans making very, very slow gains, when the Yankees come riding in, like the calvary in those old western movies. They give just enough Umpfh to the Allied cause to drive the Hun back, who then capitulate, everyone is happy, rah rah!

Then comes Hitler, he riles up the down trodded Germans into war, and off they go. Again, the British and the French fight side by side against the Germans, but this time, the Germans are using new tech AND new tactics, while their adversaries use new tech and old tactics. Insert ass whooping here, now there isn't anyone in continental Europe to stand up to the Nazis. Battle of Britain occures. British ability to produce war supplies almost exhausted when a small bombing raid on Berlin causes Hitler to divert his bombers from factories to cities. Factories then manage to produce enough planes to help the grim British resolve to win. Invasion of Britain called off, turns sights on Russia, and proceeds to lose vast numbers of men and material in the Steppes. Declare war on the US after Pearl Harbor, Stalingrad, Kursk, D-Day, etc. Hitler offs self, Germany surrenders, that's it folks.

So, the United States kind of helped in WW1, and definately helped in WW2. France helped in ARW. Now, the French think we are stupid, well there are lots of stupid people in the US, but not ALL of us are. US thinks all French are snobs, see last sentence. Neither side is willing to budge, the end. I hope this sums up how things have developed up to this point. I think we all need a group hug.

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Zeld2.0

The French Revolution itself was long before the War of 1812 (though it did lead to many of the wars of that period).

Actually, when the French Revolution was in flight, radical groups did invade other nations under the banner of the Revolution. It was so radical at the time that the monarchies of other nations in Europe were threatened (after all, the French had just beheaded their own King).

Add in Napoleon, and we have the Napoleonic Era which, essentially from the French Revolution (say, 1796) to 1815, was non-stop war in Europe.

The War of 1812 itself could be considered a part of the sideshow of Europe at the time when Napoleon nearly conquered all of Europe. Yep, he had France, Spain, Italy, allies in Austria, had the German states, Poland, and was in Russia before his famous defeat at the hands of good old General Winter.

The War of 1812 itself wasn't the British coming back and saying "lets take you on" - there were other things that happened that caused a stir and aggression which lead to war (of which, the U.S. can be blamed for some as well as the Brits).

The U.S. actually FAILED miserably throughout the entire war - it failed to take Canada, its own capital was sacked and burned.

Of course, things go to show, you can lose many battles, but still win the war.

And FWIW, many of Britains best troops were in Europe fighting the man known as Napoleon. When Napoleon was first exiled, that freed many troops to go to America. Of course, by then, a treaty was already being negotiated - and of course, Napoleon comes back, rounds up an army, then is defeated at Waterloo (1815).

The War of 1812 to Europeans is a sideshow to the first true total war.

Hwed

I never really believed in the sterotype about the French. Then I worked closely with them on a software implementation project. As it turns out, they are a bunch of cowardly assholes... at least the ones I met.

onetime2

The French/American realtionship is far too complicated to boil down to just an Iraq or military support thing. There are economic, political, and cultural tensions at work.

France is currently at work trying to solidify its position within the EU. The EU is being formed to combat American economic dominance and the potential dominance of behemoths like China.

Culturally, the French make no secret of their resentment towards the invasion of American culture and slang into their society.

Politically, there are many power struggles within the UN and internationally over America's use of the death penalty, import duties, trade relationships with other countries, etc.

For those who say the French are all a bunch of cowards, it may be a fun joke but their military strength throughout history and their military technological prowess is among the greatest in the history of the world. The French foreign legion, the French resistance during WWII, and the French military forces fighting in places like Afghanistan and in UN peace keeping forces are highly trained and very professional.

There are significant reasons for the tensions between France and the US and they are often stoked by very public refusals of US requests on the world stage (not the least of which was allowing planes to fly over French air space when we bombed Libya). The mistaken bombing of the French embassy by US planes in those raids didn't help their impression of the US either.

There're lots of reasons for the dislike, Iraq is but one part.

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roachboy

i agree with onetime, but would go further...the relations france-us are quite copmliex and have been--i could go on and on about this topic but will try not to.

1.
france is not a single entity any more than the u.s. is--there is a complex a range of opinion there as there is in the states---politically france is more interesting to me than the state is because they have something closer to a real political spectrum, a much more developed Left culture (even still)---i find it useful to look at the american situation through a grid dervied from the french political scene--a vewipoint from which it becomes clear that the cliche that america is a single party state with two right wing is validated without effort.

2.
on the recent wave of anti-french sentiment: this one is simple--televised propaganda in the period that immediately followed the american defat in the unsc. the right figured they would blame the flimsiness of the case for going outside the un sanctions regime on france. many people bought it. many people watch too much television. i dont have much to add to what shakran said about this, above. well i might, but it would sound snarky.

3.
on the cultural imperialism question: there was a view in france, particularly on the left, that they were trading occupations after world war 2----german for american--one military, one cultural. probably the best single book on this perception is a short novel by margueritte duras called "the war".

the conflicts this generated were legion--the generator for it initially might have had something to do with the reconstruction but there are lots of them, really-----there were problems with the americans coldwar world, hostiliy from the americans as a function of the french communist party as a serious mass political organization---attempts to tamper with elections like you saw in italy in the late 1940s----the political effects of the cold war cannot be overstated...this paragraph is compressed/simplified almost beyond coherence---but there we are.

4.
world war 2: this one really irks me.
first off, the american history of ww2 routinely erases the role of the soviet army in defeating germany. the story usually goes like this:

which is typical in that it skips the entire period after stalingrad, eliminates the various feints undertaken by the us to damage the soviets (following on truman's famous "let them bleed each other white" remark in congress) that prompted the americans to respond to stalin's pleas for a second front by invading first north africa, then italy...it is a hero-narrative that deconstextualizes d-day in an attempt to make the ending of ww2 the exclusive function of american actions--which it was not--the story is simply bullshit. it might make people feel--i dont know--something--but it is bullshit.

4a.
on the french resistance: well the american preferred to try to prop up degaulle and the "free french" because on the ground the vast majority of the resistants were pcf. on the other side, the pcf trafficked in its claims to *be* the resistance for years on its own, and tried to erase the fact that they did not organize much of anything until after hitler invaded russia. either way, the americna story about the french resistance, to the extent that there is one, is yet another cold war relic. the resistance was a big deal. that resistance was predominantly communist. so the americans erase it. instead, you get "the french are cowards". that is not history. but see the next paragraph.

4b.
on ww2 in general: this one gets complicated quickly---the story is pretty well known--too often you get a facile, idiotic set of interpretations derived mostly from world war 2 films in which the grizzled american gi enters some ww2 situation and kills faceless, ideology-less nazis in great number across the neutral backdrop of the french countryside---according to these films (not reality) the french were simply cowards.
i do not pretend to understand everything about what the french state was thinking in august 1940--they were wrong about the maginot line, they were leaning against the wrong door--they were flanked and they knew it, nothing really to be done---and they were haunted by ww1.
you want to think about what that last one meant, go to a french village, and french village, and look at the memeorial columns in the cnetre of town--the french recruited on the buddy system going into ww1--the americans did the same during the civil war--this maximized the trauma of war on local populations by wiping out entire swatches of the male population of a given town in maybe 30 seconds if they drew point on the wrong day, in the wrong place. i think the reality of massacre was more evident to the french state in august 1940, ww1 was a much bigger presence--because it was france and britian (and their colonies) that took ww1 full in the face--they did not walk in at the end the way the americans did--it was a different war there, a national trauma the effects of which had not faded by 1940.

what i do know is that much of the surrender was about trying to save paris, save the countryside in a situation where the french knew they were fucked strategically. they thought they might be able to work out a better deal for themselvces, and maybe just wait things out. it was a calculation. you might not agree with it. but one thing for sure is that the narrative dear to american conservatives in the period since the start of bushwar is simply wrong, a lie.

maybe the problem is that conservatives tend to have trouble imagining the american being flanked, being in a position where they a fucked militarily with nothing to be done, and the decision is to undertake a fight they know they will loose with great devastation to boot, or fold the cards. but then again, these same folk often cannot face what happened to the americans in vietnam.

there are other things, but i'll stop, this is already too long

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powerclown

What's the deal with the French, you ask?
It's quite simple really.

DSM-IV Code 301.81, Narcissistic Personality Disorder

Bodyhammer86

here ya go:
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/WNT/I..._040420-1.html
http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2002/16176.htm
http://www.iraqfoundation.org/news/2...t/7_audit.html

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whocarz

Please, excuse my berevity. It was late, I was tired, and I didn't want to go into a long drawn out history of WW2. I will say that the Soviets were many times more responsible for defeating Nazi Germany than the United States. If somehow the Russians and the Germans honored their non-aggression pact, it is doubtful that America would have been able to defeat the Nazis. At the least, casualties would have been exponentially higher. I am of the belief that Russia would have beaten Germany by itself if it had to. Quiet simply, it had so much more men and material that it would have been inevitable. Please note that my timeline wasn't "Stalingrad, D-day, etc." I did mention Kursk, which was also important. Towards the end, there were too many catastrophes for the German army to mention. The Courland pocket was a massive disaster, etc. However, as I said before, I wanted to be brief on the subject because the entire events of WW2 don't necessarily have to be discussed concerning this subject.

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roachboy

whocarz: happens all the time on boards...not a problem in itself--in the context of this particular discussion, i reacted to it mostly because i saw in the abridgement a kind of summation of what was going on through the whole of it.

powerclown: are you serious with your post?

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spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

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Dyze

I'm not sure if powerclown refers to the French or the American with the description. But, knowing France and the society as well as the politics going on there, I can tell that this is no description of the country.

MSD

Geez, and all this time I was sitting here thinking it was because Mr. Burns didn't deliver the Trillion Dollar Bill.

james t kirk

Well, the really funny thing is that the the V-2 program was headed up by this one Nazi named Werhner Von Braun.

And boy did the Americans want to get their hands on him.

And he put the Americans on the moon in 20 some odd years.

I gotta believe that if this guy wanted to, he could have had an ICBM in a few years.

The really funny thing is that Hitler hated Von Braun, and once remarked that if he (Hitler) didn't need his brain, he would have shot him years ago. Even funnier is that Eisenhower apparently hated Von Braun (because Ike hated all Germans and nazi Germans even more so) and he (Ike) remarked that if he didn't need Von Braun so much, he would have shot him years ago.

True story.

james t kirk

You're wrong in just about every way.

Hitler could not take out the RAF.

You know, "never in the field of human conquest has so much been owed by so many to so few"

The few being the RAF.

Hitler needed to cross the channel. He couldn't do that with the RAF all over him. And then, even if he knocked out the RAF, the RN would have had something to say about any channel crossing.

james t kirk

It's AMAZING to me sometimes how Americans think.

See where I grew up (Canada) we were always taught that the US declared war on British North America (Canada) and we fought back with a everything we had and a few British Regulars who could be spared from the war with Napolean, and a whole bunch of first nations warriors who wanted nothing to do with Uncle Sam having seen what you guys did to their brothers and beat your asses back across the boarder.

You see, it was the USA after all who declared war, not the Brits. They were too busy fighting Napolean to be so stupid as to start a war thousands of miles away.

There isn't a Canadian kid alive who doesn't know the name General Issac Brock or Tecumseh the first nations warrior chief.

Strangely enough, as soon as the Brits polished off Napolean and could turn the full fury of their military on those gob-fly Americans, you yanks sued for peace. But not before we burned the white house to the ground and President Madison ran away dressed as a woman into the hills of Virginia.

oktjabr

Maybe a bit off-topic, dealing with American tourists, but somehow it is weird how many of them think that dollars are a valid currency everywhere around the globe, even in countries (like mine) where they have euros. Talk about weirdness when you see an american tourist trying to buy a meat pie (?) from the local market with dollars...

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Zeld2.0

Heh, ironically, it is probably a shock to many people but the current exchange rate is 1 Euro for $1.24 US - to find people were actually shocked at that is kind of amazing

And I did post a thing about the War of 1812 up there in reply to whocarz - essentially, the British would not have cared about the U.S. at all during a period when Napoleon was running around Europe...

whocarz

Captain Kirk, please excuse my ignorance of the War of 1812. It was never taught in school, and even though I fancy myself a bit of a history buff, I have no vested intrest in America's most unimportant war. I do recall that I had heard you Canadians had sacked the capitol during the war. However, as I said earlier, I was quite tired at the time, and was trying to be as brief as possible, since the relevance of the War of 1812 to the topic is quite miniscule. I'm sorry if I offended you, or worse yet, reinforced your view that all Americans are slobbering dullards. And hey, who knows, perhaps one day we'll pay you back? For the capitol I mean.

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If there exists anything mightier than destiny, then it is the courage to face destiny unflinchingly. -Geibel

Despise not death, but welcome it, for nature wills it like all else. -Marcus Aurelius

Come on, you sons of bitches! Do you want to live forever? -GySgt. Daniel J. "Dan" Daly

matthew330

French people suck
I just gotta say
Made the jet fighters
Go out of their way
Hating Yankees too much
Those beret-headed nuts.
They can stick the Eifell Tower
Straight up their butts.


Last time I flew Air France
Played a tune on my Uzi
And made the sissies dance.
Killed a hundred or more
And I had a ball.
Those freakin' frog suckers
Be the death of us all.


French people suck.
French people suck.
French people suck.
French people can suck my...

-The Meatmen

roachboy

why, what a sophisticated intervention, matthew. really adds to things. thanks alot for posting it.

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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

pedro padilla

france is very beautiful. damn shame its fulla french folk.

matthew330

ehh. thread just reminded me of an old 80's punk song and thought - what the hell.

(though i did think their decision to not let our pilots fly over their precious air space when we went after Khadaffi, not sure about the spelling, speaks volumes)

Seaver

Yes and no. If you want to get into it the US warhawks wanted to declare war because they wanted Canada, something denied during the Revolution. So they used the FACT that the Brits would stop US merchant ships, and force OUR sailors to fight for them against the French, which is definately an act of war. So we declared war first while they enacted it.

Yeah we got defeated accross the border, and had Washington burned, but in no way was the Republic in serious danger. The Brits didnt have enough people, and by the end of it when they tried to run up the Mississippi on us we sent them back to the sea. Did we win? No. Did we lose? No. Was it a stupid war? Yes.

Konichiwaneko

Okay I say this in all seriousness.

I myself, when I think of france, I think of everything in humanity that is weak. I think of surrender.

The reason why?

Okay when someone who is out of country see's America, they see our President now. They don't see me, they don't see those around me.

Same for me...when I see France I see it's government and the actions it has taken. I see stereotypes. I've been please with the frence people when I've interacted with them...but the french government... no thanks.

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