What's Happening in Iraq? - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Journeyman · 08-12-2004, 08:59 PM

In the spirit of other threads that are inquisitions to what's not entirely well known, I'd like to know what's going on in Iraq. It started out, shortly after "Mission Accomplished," as a lot of talk about al-Qaeda operatives committing terrorism in Iraq, but lately I've gotten the impression that recent resistance has gone from terrorism to guerrilla warfare. And that step doesn't often happen without the help of large numbers, which often indicates popular support.

http://www.dawn.com/2004/08/13/top12.htm

Quote:

NAJAF, Aug 12: US marines backed by tanks and aircraft seized the heart of Shia holy city of Najaf on Thursday in a major assault on guerillas of Mehdi Army that drove world oil prices to record highs.

[...]

DEPUTY GOVERNOR RESIGNS: Shortly after the attack began, Najaf deputy governor Jawdat Kadam Najem al-Kuraishi resigned in protest "against all the US terrorist operations that they are doing against this holy city."

After the shutdown of al-Jazeera in Baghdad, and earlier the shutdown of Al Hawza in Fallujah, it's just seeming more and more like we replaced a dictatorship with a dictatorship. I'm also of the understanding that certain officials are afraid of holding free elections for fear that religous figures would win the elections and a theocracy would be put in place. I'm bummed out by that, but to hold off on elections because of fears over people you don't like being democratically elected is un-democratic.

So, what exactly is the status in Iraq in terms of who's fighting, why we're fighting back so hard, and when free elections are going to be held?

Mojo_PeiPei · 08-12-2004, 09:38 PM

Sadly you have to give things like this time. You can't expect us to instill a democracy similar to our own in a country that is indoctrinated with very different cultures and philiosophies of our own.

For example Afganistan. That place is one tough mother fucking country to hack it in, thats why the warlord mentality still prevails, and I won't even split hairs that we are half assing it. But regardless, culturally these people our polar opposites of everything we are, Iraq isn't even half as bad as Afganistan and look how hard it is.

Give it time.

As far as terrorists/guerilla warfare goes, looks like people there are two very active movements in Iraq. We know for a fact Al Qeada and other branch organizations are there fighting the war against the infidels, this is clear in attacks against civilian targets and the presence of high level officers i.e. Al Zarqawi. Then due to Iraq's central location you get a massive influx of foreign fighter's from Iran, Syria, Jordan, Saudi Arabia.

On top of it we have a popular shiite holed up in one of the most important shrines of one of the most important sects of one of the world's biggest religions, that's a problem. Allah willing we will put him out within the week.

Then outside of pissed off zealot-nationalists, we got Baathists still around. We def. have our work cut out for us.

This is a critical point in Iraq, I just wish people could put politics and their hatred for Bush aside, and yes that is a BIG ISSUE, and rally behind our troops and what we are doing there.

inkriminator · 08-12-2004, 10:02 PM

Mojo, I think you highlighted the reasons for our troubles, in that:

Quote:

You can't expect us to instill a democracy similar to our own in a country that is indoctrinated with very different cultures and philiosophies of our own.

This simple fact was overlooked when we decided to goto war. Expecting a country to evolve politically from a dictatorship to a democracy in a few short years is a laughable hope.

It was a short-sighted move by a feckless president. All we can hope for now is that much blood won't be lost to turn Iraq into a stable democracy

roachboy · 08-13-2004, 06:12 AM

sorry about this, but i am so tired of hearing and reading the line that "we should support our troops at this critical juncture" as a way to shut down questions--serious questions--about what the americans are doing.

it was used in efforts to shut down criticisms of the bushwar in its earliest phases--now it has turned out the critics were right.

it was used as a device to accompany the shifting "explanations" floated by this administration for their actions.

it appears again here as a way of trying to shut down questions about what the americans think they are doing by going into najaf.

this last thing seems like a debacle in the making--so much so that the americans are looking for a way out as we sit here. i imagine that the americans are negociating now after watching the "iraqi security forces" in action yesterday in najaf--i think they must have decided that sending them into the shia holy sites would trigger a bloodbath (so that symbolic move was made absurd at two levels, both in itself and practically)

i think there are multiple resistance movements to american colonial occupation in iraq, some directed at the occupation proper, some directed at the nature/composition of the present puppet regime.

i think that the "installation of democracy" was a fig leaf proffered by the administration to sell its ridiculous war, the motives for which seem to be about making a statement against international institutions rather than about having anything approaching a coherent plan on the ground.

Seaver · 08-13-2004, 12:22 PM

Look at how long it took US to draft and pass the Constitution. That's with people of mostly the same religion, with little fighting between each other. Give it time.

whocarz · 08-13-2004, 04:02 PM

I love how impatient everyone is about Iraq. For ten years after world war 2, German nationals bombed buildings, assasinated leaders, etc. You can transform a dictatorship into a democracy, but you cannot do it overnight. It takes blood, sweat and tears.

itlain · 08-13-2004, 06:01 PM

Actually being in Iraq and for the most part participating in a lot of these functions I can tell you that one major issue is that the enemy isn't always clear cut. There is no uniform that you look out for (Well actually Mahdi's Army does have an uniform but they rarely use if for obvious reasons; Mahdi's Army being the militia of Al Sadr). Most of the time you have to wait to be shot at before you can shoot back. It is legal in this country to own and carry weapons up to a 7.62mm status. This includes AK-47s. Granted you have to have a permit to do so. Put yourself in these shoes.

You see someone walking down the street with an AK-47. Your boss tells you to go and find out if its a legal weapon. You can't shoot first.

It's not a clear cut war that we are fighting over here. Our soldier's in battle. They are dieing from a bomb that is placed on the side of the road. A couple of 120mm mortar or artillery shells packed together will put of a hella dent in a tank or a humvee. A small core group of people are the ones who are making this process hard. The large majority of the Iraqi people want peace. They have been under a brutal dictatership for the past almost 40 years.

So they have closed a newspaper office for 30 days. Big deal, it sure as hell beats getting publicly shot for publishing what you want to.

Hwed · 08-14-2004, 02:30 PM

Appreciate the hard work you folks are doing over there, itlain. You really should be proud. Also like the unique perspective you provide here.

Keep it up and stay safe!

08-12-2004, 09:38 PM	#2 (permalink)
Mojo_PeiPei Kiss of Death Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow	Sadly you have to give things like this time. You can't expect us to instill a democracy similar to our own in a country that is indoctrinated with very different cultures and philiosophies of our own. For example Afganistan. That place is one tough mother fucking country to hack it in, thats why the warlord mentality still prevails, and I won't even split hairs that we are half assing it. But regardless, culturally these people our polar opposites of everything we are, Iraq isn't even half as bad as Afganistan and look how hard it is. Give it time. As far as terrorists/guerilla warfare goes, looks like people there are two very active movements in Iraq. We know for a fact Al Qeada and other branch organizations are there fighting the war against the infidels, this is clear in attacks against civilian targets and the presence of high level officers i.e. Al Zarqawi. Then due to Iraq's central location you get a massive influx of foreign fighter's from Iran, Syria, Jordan, Saudi Arabia. On top of it we have a popular shiite holed up in one of the most important shrines of one of the most important sects of one of the world's biggest religions, that's a problem. Allah willing we will put him out within the week. Then outside of pissed off zealot-nationalists, we got Baathists still around. We def. have our work cut out for us. This is a critical point in Iraq, I just wish people could put politics and their hatred for Bush aside, and yes that is a BIG ISSUE, and rally behind our troops and what we are doing there. __________________ To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

08-13-2004, 06:12 AM	#4 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	sorry about this, but i am so tired of hearing and reading the line that "we should support our troops at this critical juncture" as a way to shut down questions--serious questions--about what the americans are doing. it was used in efforts to shut down criticisms of the bushwar in its earliest phases--now it has turned out the critics were right. it was used as a device to accompany the shifting "explanations" floated by this administration for their actions. it appears again here as a way of trying to shut down questions about what the americans think they are doing by going into najaf. this last thing seems like a debacle in the making--so much so that the americans are looking for a way out as we sit here. i imagine that the americans are negociating now after watching the "iraqi security forces" in action yesterday in najaf--i think they must have decided that sending them into the shia holy sites would trigger a bloodbath (so that symbolic move was made absurd at two levels, both in itself and practically) i think there are multiple resistance movements to american colonial occupation in iraq, some directed at the occupation proper, some directed at the nature/composition of the present puppet regime. i think that the "installation of democracy" was a fig leaf proffered by the administration to sell its ridiculous war, the motives for which seem to be about making a statement against international institutions rather than about having anything approaching a coherent plan on the ground. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

08-13-2004, 12:22 PM	#5 (permalink)
Seaver Junkie Location: Fort Worth, TX	Look at how long it took US to draft and pass the Constitution. That's with people of mostly the same religion, with little fighting between each other. Give it time. __________________ "Smite the rocks with the rod of knowledge, and fountains of unstinted wealth will gush forth." - Ashbel Smith as he laid the first cornerstone of the University of Texas

08-13-2004, 04:02 PM	#6 (permalink)
whocarz Jarhead Location: Colorado	I love how impatient everyone is about Iraq. For ten years after world war 2, German nationals bombed buildings, assasinated leaders, etc. You can transform a dictatorship into a democracy, but you cannot do it overnight. It takes blood, sweat and tears. __________________ If there exists anything mightier than destiny, then it is the courage to face destiny unflinchingly. -Geibel Despise not death, but welcome it, for nature wills it like all else. -Marcus Aurelius Come on, you sons of bitches! Do you want to live forever? -GySgt. Daniel J. "Dan" Daly

08-13-2004, 06:01 PM	#7 (permalink)
itlain Upright Location: Fort Lewis, WA	Actually being in Iraq and for the most part participating in a lot of these functions I can tell you that one major issue is that the enemy isn't always clear cut. There is no uniform that you look out for (Well actually Mahdi's Army does have an uniform but they rarely use if for obvious reasons; Mahdi's Army being the militia of Al Sadr). Most of the time you have to wait to be shot at before you can shoot back. It is legal in this country to own and carry weapons up to a 7.62mm status. This includes AK-47s. Granted you have to have a permit to do so. Put yourself in these shoes. You see someone walking down the street with an AK-47. Your boss tells you to go and find out if its a legal weapon. You can't shoot first. It's not a clear cut war that we are fighting over here. Our soldier's in battle. They are dieing from a bomb that is placed on the side of the road. A couple of 120mm mortar or artillery shells packed together will put of a hella dent in a tank or a humvee. A small core group of people are the ones who are making this process hard. The large majority of the Iraqi people want peace. They have been under a brutal dictatership for the past almost 40 years. So they have closed a newspaper office for 30 days. Big deal, it sure as hell beats getting publicly shot for publishing what you want to. __________________ Support the troops, if not the war.

08-14-2004, 02:30 PM	#8 (permalink)
Hwed Tilted	Appreciate the hard work you folks are doing over there, itlain. You really should be proud. Also like the unique perspective you provide here. Keep it up and stay safe!