phyzix525

Actually I did. Because I don't have any taxes taken out of my checks I am 1099 at the end of the year. Say it adds up to 30,000. I deduct my expenses which where around 20,000 and then I am taxed on the 10,000 about 1000. I pay the self employment tax which may come out to about 1000.00. Then I have earned income credits that cover the taxes of 2,000 I paid and I end up wit about 2000 in cash when everything said and done. I paid nothing all year and I got 2K at the end. The middle class does not need a tax break.

But in all honesty if the government wants to get more money they have to tax the middle class more. the rich are smart enough to do what it takes to get out of paying taxes. The middle class don't have the means or the brains to. I don't think its right, its just fact.

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shakran

No, let's tell the true story here. The middle class doesn't exploit bullshit tax loopholes that the upper class does.

If you want to really fix the system, you get rid of all those stupid loopholes and make everyone pay their fair share rather than giving the opportunity for some to get out of paying.

phyzix525

now that is bullshit, having worked as a mortgage broker for a couple years and not to mention other jobs, I have come to the realization that the middle class is pretty fucking dumb about money. nobody wants to pay taxes, if you knew you could get out of paying more then you need to and don't your dumb, and if you don't know how then you are just ignorant.

Those loopholes are not just for the rich. anyone can use them as I did last year to a small extent.

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shakran

no, the middle class by and large can't afford a personal accountant to help them exploit loopholes. The rich can. Doesn't make the middle class dumb.

Now, you classified yourself as being above the poverty level. You also mentioned that you took $2,000 from the government last year rather than paying them anything.

Surely you're not going to sit there and tell me that that was the intention when the tax code was written. Sure, it works out great for you, but SOMEONE's gotta take up the burden. As you mentioned, it's gonna be a middle class guy because the rich (and apparantly you) have either the knowledge or the ability to hire someone with the knowledge to sluff their tax burden off on someone else.

That is bullshit, and that's where the tax reform needs to start. Close the loopholes so that at the very least the government is not paying people at tax time.

phyzix525

people can't pay 200 for a good accountant when it could save them hundreds if not thousands, sounds like they are poor at math.

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smooth

I think the reason middle class income earners can't write off their taxes and stick their money in hidey-holes is due to the fact that they don't have capital.

Furthermore, the most damaging tax dodgers are corporations--not persons.

And I'm calling bullshit on your income figures. I do my taxes personally every year and your numbers don't pan out.

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Journeyman

Who woulda known: Not having a lot of money leads to not knowing a lot about money.

kutulu

Agreed. And now we have an arc. The thread got way off topic but worked it's way back. It goes back to the original intent of this thread that Bush is full of shit.

His comments about how the rich will just get out of paying taxes shows that he doesn't give a shit about making his group pay up their share. If he did give a shit, he'd close the fucking loopholes.

It's not that difficult. If an accountant can find the loopholes, then the government can. It seems like they only exist so that the rich can run around saying "look how much I get taxed" while avoiding as much tax as possible.

matthew330

This is a false statement.

"There is no point taxing the rich because they just dodge their tax bill anyway, President George Bush said"

..i know you guys haven't quite figured out the meaning of "lying" yet, but i think i think we can all agree that the first sentence of the article, being that it is a deliberately false statement concocted to decieve the reader, is a lie.

The author never went to whitehouse.gov and referenced some chart that he believed was essentially Bush saying "Dont' tax the rich." He wanted to fool people into having the reaction the original poster did - "He wants the poor people to shoulder all the tax burden" (as if that were possible anyway).

Kadath - can you at least admit that.

p.s. - i win again, you lose, thread closed.

shakran

President Bush did say that, just not in those exact words. That's why that sentence was not quoted to him. Anyone who can read Bush's full statement (I quoted it for you early in the thread) and still think that President Bush is in favor of taxing the rich needs to take reading comprehension lessons.




No, he referenced Bush's own words.

That's your interpretation, not mine. See, it seems to me that Bush isn't real good about predicting the future consequences of his actions today. Case in point, he predicted a quick war in Iraq. He predicted we'd find WMD's. He predicted a largescale world support for the war. Instead he's got a quagmire in iraq, no WMD's, and he has the whole world pissed at us. The point here is not to redirect this thread into an argument over Bush's warmongering record, but to point out that Bush isn't very good at projecting consequences.

Seems to me that his goal is to reduce the tax burden on the rich. Nothing else is really entering the equation in his mind. Under his plan we'll either have to up taxes on the non-rich or we'll start losing more money, but unfortunately he hasn't considered that.

I guess what I'm saying is that we have a real simpleton at the helm right now who is unwilling (and has admitted - no, that's the wrong word - has bragged many times that he's unwilling) to inform himself to the level required to make intelligent decisions.

sailor

Man, this is turning into a good old-fashioned Politics board "discussion."

Guess Ill jump back in

Seriously, listen to yourself. You've just called an entire tax bracket stupid because they dont have the money or the knowledge to exploit the tax loopholes. You just confirmed Bush's statement--more affluent people tend to take advantage of the tax loopholes. Take care of *that* before you go bitching and whining about needing to cut taxes. Jesus

Agreed.

Very much agreed. Those loopholes were pushed by and put into practice by those with the means and knowledge to exploit them. They didnt just randomly appear. Its like a private club of affluent citizens able to effect change to get themselves more money while placing more burden on middle and lower America. Thats not something I would aspire to...

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"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws."
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Mephisto2

Don't assume you know what my initial reaction, or reason for posting was.

I posted the link to foster debate, and it certainly succeeded.

And drop this "I win, thread closed" bullshit. We're all a bit too old for playground nonesense.


Mr Mephisto

matthew330

Well i'll let the argument run it's course without any further interuptions, but...

"Who does he want to tax then? The poor?

I really can't understand how this guy's politics are so popular in America."

....in my opinion wasn't an attempt at fostering debate. Sounds more to me like a knee jerk reaction to an obviously poorly written, poorly thought out article capitalizing on a benign statement that in no way shape of form meant what the author would have you believe it meant. The debate that ensued happens to be off-topic.

You guys can't even admit the article not only sucks, but is deliberately deceitfull. Somewhat of a microcosm of why i don't give a shit anymore. Something this cut and dry is so easily convoluted, it's amazing what you guys do with topics that are inherently more complicated. David Blaine shit.

phyzix525

Like I said it only cost me 200 to have an accountant that was an ex-IRS agent by the way to do my taxes. No hidy holes needed. If I were "rich" I would want to protect myself under a corporation that was owned by a trust, that only cost 500-600 for the papers and lawyer to establish a corporation which would help for years to come. saving a thousand or two every year. easily making your money back. I am sticking with my original thought that people are too dumb to take advantage not too poor, and if you are too poor your not paying much taxes to begin with anyway.

Not having money is no excuse, I don't have much but I have managed to educate myself a bit about it.

Some loopholes are there to even things out with those who are self employed. If I own a business and I make a 100,000. thats not all profit, should I be taxed on all of it? those that are paid salary of 100,000 all of it is "profit" there are no expenses he needs to take out of that. As a business owner my 100,000 half of it may be to purchase supplies and other deductions that cost me to operate my business. So I should only be taxed on 50,000 which is true "profit" The problem is that a good accountant and someone that makes good records can oftentimes write off almost all of the 100,000 and only pay taxes on a very small amount. such as myself.

What he is saying is that Kerry's plan will not work the way it is set up. The rich are too smart and will get out of the extra taxation. you just continue to have a large deficit cause the rich can and will get out of paying the new higher taxes.


They have the money. they will either pay it as a tax or they pay less to an accountant, its not that hard, its just that people think that jackson hewitt and H& R bloc are good places to go.

Again I would like to see the entire Income tax thing just go away and go to a sales tax system. Only problem is too much change scares people.

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sailor

And you are proud of that? Way to foist the burden off onto others

Lets just get rid of all taxes for people of means because they will find ways out of it anyways. Excellent idea.

To do anything close to supporting the costs of the government, the sales taxes would have to be absurdly large. Think along the lines of 50% or higher. With rates that high, people will either

a) Not spend the money.
b) More likely, spend it under the table.

Either way, the country is now in a world of shit.

__________________
"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws."
--Plato

kutulu

A sales tax would be the biggest scam ever put on by the rich to screw the poor and middle class.

Let's say that goes and the rate is 20% and we have two people. One makes 30k and the other makes 300k. The guy making 30k has to spend every penny that he makes to get by, therefore his tax rate is 20% of his total income. On the other hand the guy making 300k might have 100k left at the end of the year. As a result, he only spent 200k. He pays 40k in taxes, resulting in a 13.3% tax rate.

People making over 300k pay currently pay over 30% and they contribute over 35% of the total income tax generated. This group as a whole would have their tax rate fall to less than half of its current rate. As a result, instead of getting 35% of the taxes from the top 1%, we are getting less than 20% from them. That extra burden is therefore shifted to the middle class and poor.

shakran

this idea that we shouldn't bother taxing the rich because they will be "smart" enough to exploit loopholes is the biggest pile of bullshit I've seen pushed in this thread yet. That's like saying "I can't roller skate on the sidewalk because there's a lawn chair there." Remove the damn chair!

The solution is so easy it's not funny - Remove the damn loopholes! Doesn't matter how smart, dishonest, clever, slimy, whatever you want to call it, the rich people are, if there aren't any loopholes for them to exploit, then they can't exploit any loopholes.

Of course, the whole reason the loopholes are there and will stay there is simple too. The rich, having a lot of money to throw around, can influence the politicians by donating craploads of it to their campaigns. Easy to convince them to make a tiny little loophole if they've just donated a million dollars to the campaign.

So yes, the rich can exploit the tax system more effectively than the middle class because they can get the politicians to change the tax system to suit them.

sailor

Yes, yes, yes, yes. Affirmative on all points--you hit the nail on the head there.

__________________
"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws."
--Plato

Mephisto2

Well, they were.

Knee-jerk? I don't think so. I believe everyone agrees that Bush is talking about lowering taxes, when the US has a massive deficit. What should be happening, in my opinion, is RAISING taxes for the ultra-rich, plugging loopholes and abandoning such nonesense as "trickle down" Reaganesque econominc nonesense.

Fostering debate doesn't mean you can't have an opinion.

And, finally, I've no problem in restating my comment that I can't understand why his political and economic policies are so popular with about half of the population in America. In my opinion, they are demonstrably incorrect, misguided and in many cases downright dangerous.

:-)


Mr Mephisto

kutulu

Same here. I don't get why half the half of the country would be against eliminating tax cuts on people who make 10 times what they make. I could see that the top 5% would have a problem with it, but not the other 95%.

Cigarette taxes show us that people are fine with taxes as long as they don't affect their pocket. They always pass.

Journeyman

Look, if you can scrounge up a "Cliff Notes on Tax Loopholes for the $75,000K and Unders" I'll read it, but hiring a $300 bean counter to save $400 on taxes isn't worth it to me or a lot of other people. I do like what you're saying in principle, though: People ought to be educated about money. As it is, they're not doing it on their own, so yeah, maybe math teachers should be saddled with a little extra tax-law curriculum. Offer a few courses in the junior colleges. It's good to know these things. Of course, once it starts to put dents in the government's wallet...

VTBrian

Whats wrong with a flat tax rate? I don't see why just because someone earns more they also owe the government more. In alot of cases these ppl are small business owners, they have worked harder to earn that money so they should get to keep it.

sailor

Because they can afford it. The problem is that when you are making 30 grand a year and trying to support a family, you dont have as much money to give to the government as someone trying to do the same thing on 200 grand. Big difference there.

And whos to say someone who owns a small business is working harder than the high school math teacher or the janitor or the construction worker down the street? Im not saying that everyone should be paid the same, just that pay rate is not indicative of how hard someone is working.

Also, in my experience, most small business owners arent making *that* much. Many of them tend to continue owning their business because they love what they do.

__________________
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--Plato

kutulu

I'd like to see how a CEO making 10M/yr works harder than a ditchdigger making $10/hr

brianna

I am continually baffled by the defending of the rich that goes on in our society -- people seem extremely concerned about protecting those few individuals that are making over $300,000/year and I cannot for the life of me figure out why.

I suspect that part of growing up under the american dream is the idea that any day now you too will be rich and thus people worry that tomorrow, when they make the're first million it will all somehow be taken away from them by the government.

the rich are not an exploited class in this country, they have the ears of most government officials and they do not need you or i to protect them or their money. (note that i am not advocating exploitation of the rich (soemthing our society is far far far away from ever doing), just wondering why a large portion of the middle class seems so willing to devote their time and resources to defending people who make exponentially more money then they do.)

phyzix525

There is a limit as to how much an individual can contribute, I think its like 2 grand or something not millions.

Also just because the rich are getting a tax break does not mean that the middle class has to foot the rest of the bill, they are getting a 3 % tax break also. So that argument does not hold any water. The government needs to simply stop wasting money. If you get rid of failing programs and privitize others and just overall spend less, everyone would have less taxes to pay.

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It's hard to remember we're alive for the first time
It's hard to remember we're alive for the last time
It's hard to remember to live before you die
It's hard to remember that our lives are such a short time
It's hard to remember when it takes such a long time

phyzix525

I don't think its a matter of physical work, but more mental. Its hard running a small business no less a multi million dollar one that has 1000's of people depending on your decisions. A ditchdiggers responsibilites are to keep that ditch straight. hardly worth millions.

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It's hard to remember we're alive for the first time
It's hard to remember we're alive for the last time
It's hard to remember to live before you die
It's hard to remember that our lives are such a short time
It's hard to remember when it takes such a long time

Journeyman

So you're in favor of campaign finance reform, and banning soft money? I applaud that.

So then, while everyone (God willing, some are less fortunate) is born with a body that will grow strong enough in adulthood to dig a ditch, not everyone is born to parents who can afford to put their child through 4 years of college for an MBA. Are you also in favor of allowing universal higher education, to level the playing field?

sailor

Uh, yeah it does. Do you really think its the schoolteacher or the ditchdigger that is getting these loopholes put into place? Absolutely not--it is people with the money and the means to get the politicians' ears. If you want to lower taxes, get all this crap fixed *first*. Its like running up a credit card bill--we cant afford to be cutting taxes, why the hell are we doing it? Once it has been shown that the loopholes are closed and waste is minimized, then we can start talking about cutting taxes.

Well said, Journeyman.

__________________
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--Plato

shakran

There are ways around that and you know it. Stop pretending to be dense just so you can stick to your argument, I refuse to believe you have that little comprehension of how this stuff works.

it's a $2,000 individual limit to a specific candidate. Then you can give $20,000 to the Republicans. THEN you can set up a PAC and give $5,000. THEN you go to those $1,000 a plate dinners and "buy" a dinner, so you've contributed even more. Then you donate in the name of your wife and do all that all over again.


You say this, yet support Bush's policies? The man spends money like it's going out of style. Hell he wants to sink umpteen million into going to mars - hardly something that should be a priority right now. The deficit is the size of Mars and it keeps growing. If you want someone to stop government waste, it sure isn't gonna be Bush.

Kadath

If you paid attention, you'd see the thread has moved beyond what was written in the article. If you choose to continue to harp on that point, you are welcome to it -- there is no one to argue with you. Thank you for your continual announcements about how you don't give a shit and how "us guys" are twisting everything. Put up or shut up.

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matthew330

feel better?

phyzix525

I believe there is an even playing field. My wife for instance was a foster kid and she aplied for something called OLAP here in OK and she had her entire college tuition paid for 5 years. plus with financial assistance, we don't even need to take out loans. So the only reason people are not able to go to college is that they are too dumb to get in or too lazy to find out how.

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It's hard to remember we're alive for the first time
It's hard to remember we're alive for the last time
It's hard to remember to live before you die
It's hard to remember that our lives are such a short time
It's hard to remember when it takes such a long time

phyzix525

Do you even know what these so called evil loopholes are? You can't get rid of them. as I explained earlier as a small business owner they must be in place.

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It's hard to remember we're alive for the first time
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sailor

Why not? My lord, a couple of posts ago, you were just saying lets clean up government waste--now you are once again contradicting yourself to say that we should leave the loopholes in place. And, no, you didnt give any good reason as to why they must be there.

For someone who spouts off about people not thinking for themselves, your continued contradictory posts arent making you look so good...

__________________
"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws."
--Plato

silent_jay

Agreed, well put Shakran

Yeah and I'm sure all "good" accountants are the same price. Pay 200 to save 300 or 400, that's great and plus the gas it took me to get there, and time off work and so on and so on, suddenly the cost is over 200.

So now the middle class is dumb sorry "pretty fucking dumb about money", well at least the middle class can stick to one road in an argument, I mean you are balancing so much on the fence that I'm waiting until you fall to one side or the other to get more involved in this thread.

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Absence makes the heart grow fonder

sailor

Me too.

__________________
"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws."
--Plato

phyzix525

Government waste is spending, not the taxation, if you stop spending so much you can get away with a 10% flat tax and it does away with all loopholes. If supposedly the rich don't have to pay taxes cause of loopholes then a flat tax would be good at least they would be paying a set %.




umm yeah i did.

You are making contradictions that are not there, compairing apples to oranges, loopholes and governemnt spending are too different beasts.

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It's hard to remember we're alive for the first time
It's hard to remember we're alive for the last time
It's hard to remember to live before you die
It's hard to remember that our lives are such a short time
It's hard to remember when it takes such a long time

phyzix525

UPS, FedEx, my accountant is in DC I am in OK, I do nothing but put it together and send it off. simple. 10.00 for shipping maybe a gallon of gas to get to the store. point is it is easier to do then people think. and as I said it saved me thousands last year.

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It's hard to remember we're alive for the first time
It's hard to remember we're alive for the last time
It's hard to remember to live before you die
It's hard to remember that our lives are such a short time
It's hard to remember when it takes such a long time

sailor

And how is letting people pay less taxes than they are supposed to not waste? Its costing you money. You like economics, have you ever heard of opportunity costs?

No one has seen it here, and you still havent given one. Sheesh

Again, the government granting ways out of taxes to certain special interest groups (be them industry *or* people of means) is no different than spending excess money. It would be as if you are running your small business and decide to let some friends pay you less for what you sell and then bitching when you go under. Thats not the way you run a business, and thats not the way the government should be run either.

__________________
"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws."
--Plato