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Old 08-07-2004, 09:22 AM   #1 (permalink)
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59 deceits in Fahrenheit 9/11 - article

There are several links embedded in this story so I'm not sure how it's going to come through copied and pasted. It's a long and interesting read about MM's movie vs. a Bush-defense club to the head of Moore.

I'm neutral on this but for the most part I agree that this movie is part exaggeration and part documentary. The exaggerations take away from what could have been a nice body of work. There are holywood types that will praise this as an epic documentary of the ages and perhaps bestow a best picture award of some type on Moore and this film which is fine. Again I'm mostly neutral on this but to bestow heaps of praise on this film knowing that it contains these distortions of fact just eats away at the credibility of those few in holywood who speak from the bully pulpit.

FYI -- The article as pasted here was significantly shortened to fit in the allowable space for a thread.

Thoughts???


Link



Quote:
Fifty-nine Deceits in Fahrenheit 9/11
By Dave Kopel
Last revised: Aug. 3, 2004.



There is a Four-page PDF summary, which you may reproduce freely.

You may also photocopy the full text of this report if you give it away for free.

A volunteer film-maker MMfixer has produced a revised version of the first 14:34 of Fahrenheit 9/11. The new version includes all the material in the original movie, plus captions to point out where Moore misleads or omits critical facts. This covers the 2000 election, the Bush administration before 9/11, and the 9/11 attacks. To download the film, you need to use BitTorrent. BitTorrent is a free and widely program for distributing very large media files (such as Grateful Dead concerts). With BitTorrent, your computer will be downloading bytes and simultaneously uploading bytes to other users. (If you need to find out more about BitTorrent, check out their website.) Once you have installed BitTorrent, use your web browser to go to SuperNova.org. The new version is available in the Movies/Documentary section. The file is very large in size, and is in .mpg format. The file title is "Michael Moore Fahrenheit911FactsFixedPromo." The download will take several hours with a high-speed connection. The file is also available from Kazaa.com, but to access Kazaa you must allow Kazaa to install a great deal of spyware on your computer. I have been told that MMfixer has produced a second version, which is 28 minutes long. It is available at alt.binaries.multimedia, and you need to use FTP (file transfer protocol) to get it; don't ask me how, since I don't know.

The parody version of Fahrenheit graciously credits me at the beginning, presumably because of the article below. I had no role in anything to do with the parody movie. Having seen the 14 minute version, I can say that I agree with some but not all of the editorial decisions which were made by the producers. But as far as I can tell, I have not seen evidence that the parody producers ever falsified information.

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This report was first posted on the web on the morning of July 1. Since then, I've revised several sections in response to reader requests for clarifications, and have added additional deceits which have been pointed out by readers or journalists. As a result, the number of listed deceits has been raised from 56 to 59.


Thanks to the readers who have written to point out additional deceits or to point out items which need clarification. Also thanks to the readers who have written in defense of Moore. Many such readers have been rational and civil. Moore's reasonable defenders have made two main points:

First, notwithstanding the specific falsehoods, isn't the film as a whole filled with many important truths?


Not really. We can divide the film into three major parts. The first part (Bush, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan) is so permeated with lies that most of the scenes amount to lies. The second, shortest part involves domestic issues and the USA PATRIOT Act. So far, I've identified only one clear falsehood in this segment (Rep. Porter Goss's toll-free number). So this part, at least arguably, presents useful information. The third part, on Iraq, has several outright falsehoods--such as the Saddam regime's murder of Americans, and the regime's connection with al Qaeda. Other scenes in the third part--such as Iraqi casualties, interviews with American soldiers, and the material on bereaved mother Lila Lipscomb--are not blatant lies; but the information presented is so extremely one-sided (the only Iraqi casualties are innocents, nobody in Iraq is grateful for liberation, all the American soldiers are disillusioned, except for the sadists) that the overall picture of the Iraq War is false.



Second, say the Moore supporters, what about the Bush lies?



Well there are lies from the Bush administration which should concern everyone. For example, the Bush administration suppressed data from its own Department of Health and Human Services which showed that the cost of the new Prescription Drug Benefit would be much larger than the administration claimed. This lie was critical to passage of the Bush drug benefit bill. Similarly, Bush's characterization of his immigration proposal as not granting "amnesty" to illegal aliens is quite misleading; although the Bush proposal does not formally grant amnesty, the net result is the same as widespread amnesty. As one immigration reform group put it, "Any program that allows millions of illegal aliens to receive legal status in this country is an amnesty." Readers who want a scathing, and factually reliable, critique of the Bush administration might enjoy James Bovard's new book The Bush Betrayal (Palgrave MacMillan, 2004). Another good choice is All the President's Spin: George W. Bush, the Media, and the Truth, by Ben Fritz, Bryan Keefer, and Brendan Nyhan (Touchstone, 2004).



But two wrongs don't make a right, and the right response to Presidential lies is not more lies from his political opponents. Moreover, regarding the issues presented in Fahrenheit 9/11, the evidence of Bush lies is extremely thin. Moore shows Bush claiming that a particular day at the ranch in Crawford, Texas, was a working vacation, but Bush appears to be dissembling. Later, after Osama bin Laden was driven into hiding but was not captured, Bush unconvincingly claims not to spend much time thinking about bin Laden. Within Fahrenheit 9/11, most of the rest of alleged Bush administration lies actually involve Moore's fabrications to create the appearance of a lie--such as when Moore chops a Condoleezza Rice quote to make her say something when she actually said the opposite.



The one significant Bush administration lie exposed in the film involves the so-called USA PATRIOT Act; as Fahrenheit accurately claims, at least some of the material in the USA PATRIOT Act had nothing to do with 9/11, and instead involved long-sought items on the FBI agenda which had previously been unable to pass Congress, but which were enacted by Congress under Bush administration assurances that they were essential to fighting terrorism.



If you look up the noun "deceit" in the dictionary, you will find that the definitions point you to the verb "deceive." According to Webster's 9th New Collegiate Dictionary, the main (non-archaic or obsolete) definition of "deceive" is "to cause to accept as true or valid what is false or invalid." Although the evidence in this report demonstrates dozens of plain deceits by Moore, there are some "deceits" in this report regarding which reasonable people may disagree. So if you find me unpersuasive on, for example, three alleged deceits, consider this article to have identified "Fifty-six Deceits" rather than fifty-nine. Whether or not you agree with me on every single item, I think you will agree that the evidence is undeniable that Fahrenheit 9/11 is filled with deceit.



Quite obviously, there are many patriotic Americans who oppose George Bush and who think the Iraq War was a mistake. But Moore's deceitful movie offers nothing constructive to help people form their opinions. To use lies and frauds to manipulate people is contrary to the very essence of democracy, which requires people to make rational decisions based on truthful information. It's wrong when a President lies. It's wrong when a talk radio host lies. And it's wrong when a film-maker lies.


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July 11 update: Moore's response.



Moore's "War Room" has published a lengthy point-by-point defense of the movie. Some of the points relate to issues I've raised; others do not. For each item below, I'll provide a link to Moore's response, when there is one. On two issues (Afghanistan's President Karzai; John Ashcroft's pre-9/11 attitude towards terrorism) Moore's response makes some valid points; not necessarily that Fahrenheit is right on these facts, but at least the facts are disputable. On one issue (the unemployment rate in Flint), Moore is clearly right. On the rest of the items I've identified, Moore's responses are extremely unconvincing, mainly because they so often evade the evidence.



The key to Moore's response, and to the movie itself, is summarized by Boston University Law Professor Randy Barnett:

...I was struck by the sheer cunningness of Moore's film. When you read Kopel, try to detach yourself from any revulsion you may feel at a work of literal propaganda receiving such wide-spread accolades from mainstream politicos, as well as attendance by your friends and neighbors.

Instead, notice the film's meticulousness in saying only (or mostly) "true" or defensible things in support of a completely misleading impression. In this way, Kopel's care in describing Moore's "deceits" is much more interesting than other critiques I have read, including that of Christopher Hitchens. Kopel's lawyerly description of Moore's claims shows the film to be a genuinely impressive accomplishment in a perverse sort of way (the way an ingenious crime is impressive)--a case study in how to convert elements that are mainly true into an impression that is entirely false--and this leads in turn to another thought.

If this much cleverness was required to create the inchoate "conspiracy" (whatever it may be, as it is never really specified by Moore), it suggests there was no such conspiracy. With this much care and effort invested in uncovering and massaging the data, if there really was a conspiracy of the kind Moore suggests, the evidence would line up more neatly behind it, rather than being made to do cartwheels so as to be "true" but oh-so-misleading. If the facts don't fit, shouldn't we acquit?

(By the way, a reader responding to Barnett's July 4 post criticized some aspects of my report. In subsequent drafts, I've revised the article in response to some of those criticisms.)


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Table of Contents

1. 2000 Election

2. Bush Presidency through Sept. 11

3. Saudis.

4. Afghanistan

5. Domestic issues

6. Iraq

7. The man from Flint and terrorists


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There are many articles which have pointed out the distortions, falsehoods, and lies in the film Fahrenheit 9/11. This report compiles the Fahrenheit 9/11 deceits which have been identified by a wide variety of reviewers. In addition, I identify some inaccuracies which have not been addressed by other writers.



The report follows the approximate order in which the movie covers particular topics: the Bush family, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, and Iraq. This report focuses solely on factual issues, and not on aesthetic criticism of the film.



To understand the deceptions, it helps to understand Moore’s ideological position. So let us start with Moore’s belief that the September 11 attacks on the United States were insignificant.



Edward Koch, the former Democratic Mayor of New York City, writes:

A year after 9/11, I was part of a panel discussion on BBC-TV’s "Question Time" show which aired live in the United Kingdom. A portion of my commentary at that time follows:

"One of the panelists was Michael Moore…During the warm-up before the studio audience, Moore said something along the lines of "I don’t know why we are making so much of an act of terror. It is three times more likely that you will be struck by lightning than die from an act of terror."…I mention this exchange because it was not televised, occurring as it did before the show went live. It shows where he was coming from long before he produced "Fahrenheit 9/11."

Edward Koch, "Moore’s propaganda film cheapens debate, polarizes nation," World Tribune, June 28, 2004. [Moore response: none.]



By the way, I don't disagree with the point that it is reasonable to consider the number of deaths from any particular problem, including terrorism, in assessing how serious the problem is. Moore's point, however, was willfully oblivious to the fact that al Qaeda did not intend 9/11 to be the last word; the organization was working on additional attacks, and if the organization obtained the right weapons, millions of people might be killed. More fundamentally, even if Moore's argument in London is conceded to be legitimate, it contradicts Fahrenheit 9/11's presentation of Moore as intensely concerned about the September 11 attacks.



As we go through the long list of lies and tricks in Fahrenheit 9/11, keep in mind that Michael Moore has assembled a "war room" of political operatives and lawyers in order to respond to criticism of Fahrenheit 9/11 and to file defamation suits. (Jack Shafer, "Libel Suit 9/11. Michael Moore’s hysterical, empty threats," Slate.com, June 12, 2004.) One of Moore's "war room" officials is Chris Lehane; Lehane, as an employee of Democratic presidential candidate Wesley Clark (who was also supported by Moore), is alleged to have spread rumors to the press about John Kerry's alleged extra-marital affair, although Lehane denies doing so.



Of course if there are any genuine errors in this report, the errors will be promptly corrected. On July 5, I removed a complaint about a Presidential approval poll number, which I had wrongly thought was not supported by data.



In this report, I number Moore’s deceits. Some of them are outright lies; some are omissions which create a false impression. Others involve different forms of deception. A few are false statements Moore has made when defending the film. Judge for yourself the credibility of Michael Moore's promise, "Every single fact I state in 'Fahrenheit 9/11' is the absolute and irrefutable truth...Do not let anyone say this or that isn't true. If they say that, they are lying."



2000 Election Night

Deceits 1-2



Fahrenheit 9/11 begins on election night 2000. We are first shown Al Gore rocking on stage with famous musicians and a high-spirited crowd. The conspicuous sign on stage reads "Florida Victory." Moore creates the impression that Gore was celebrating his victory in Florida. Moore's voiceover claims, "And little Stevie Wonder, he seemed so happy, like a miracle had taken place." The verb tense of past perfect ("had taken") furthers the impression that the election has been completed.



Actually, the rally took place in the early hours of election day, before polls had even opened. Gore did campaign in Florida on election day, but went home to Tennessee to await the results. The "Florida Victory" sign reflected Gore’s hopes, not any actual election results. ("Gore Campaigns Into Election Day," Associated Press, Nov. 7, 2000.)



The film shows CBS and CNN calling Florida for Al Gore. According to the narrator, "Then something called the Fox News Channel called the election in favor of the other guy….All of a sudden the other networks said, 'Hey, if Fox said it, it must be true.'"



We then see NBC anchor Tom Brokaw stating, "All of us networks made a mistake and projected Florida in the Al Gore column. It was our mistake."



Moore thus creates the false impression that the networks withdrew their claim about Gore winning Florida when they heard that Fox said that Bush won Florida.



In fact, the networks which called Florida for Gore did so early in the evening—before polls had even closed in the Florida panhandle, which is part of the Central Time Zone. NBC called Florida for Gore at 7:49:40 p.m., Eastern Time. This was 10 minutes before polls closed in the Florida panhandle. Thirty seconds later, CBS called Florida for Gore. And at 7:52 p.m., Fox called Florida for Gore. Moore never lets the audience know that Fox was among the networks which made the error of calling Florida for Gore prematurely. Then at 8:02 p.m., ABC called Florida for Gore. Only ABC had waited until the Florida polls were closed.



About an hour before the polls closed in panhandle Florida, the networks called the U.S. Senate race in favor of the Democratic candidate. The networks seriously compounded the problem because from 6-7 Central Time, they repeatedly announced that polls had closed in Florida--even though polls were open in the panhandle. (See also Joan Konner, James Risser & Ben Wattenberg, Television's Performance on Election Night 2000: A Report for CNN, Jan. 29, 2001.)



The false announcements that the polls were closed, as well as the premature calls (the Presidential race ten minutes early; the Senate race an hour early), may have cost Bush thousands of votes from the conservative panhandle, as discouraged last-minute voters heard that their state had already been decided; some last-minute voters on their way to the polling place turned around and went home. Other voters who were waiting in line left the polling place. In Florida, as elsewhere, voters who have arrived at the polling place before closing time often end up voting after closing time, because of long lines. The conventional wisdom of politics is that supporters of the losing candidate are most likely to give up on voting when they hear that their side has already lost. Thus, on election night 1980, when incumbent President Jimmy Carter gave a concession speech while polls were still open on the west coast, the early concession was blamed for costing the Democrats several Congressional seats in the West, such as that of 20-year incumbent James Corman. The fact that all the networks had declared Reagan a landslide winner while west coast voting was still in progress was also blamed for Democratic losses in the West; Congress even held hearings about prohibiting the disclosure of exit polls before voting had ended in the any of the 48 contiguous states.



Even if the premature television calls affected all potential voters equally, the effect was to reduce Republican votes significantly, because the Florida panhandle is a Republican stronghold. Most of Central Time Zone Florida is in the 1st Congressional District, which is known as the "Redneck Riviera." In that district, Bob Dole beat Bill Clinton by 69,000 votes in 1996, even though Clinton won the state by 300,000 votes. So depress overall turnout in the panhandle, and you will necessarily depress more Republican than Democratic votes. A 2001 study by John Lott suggested that the early calls cost Bush at least 7,500 votes, and perhaps many more. Another study reported that the networks reduced panhandle turn-out by about 19,000 votes, costing Bush about 12,000 votes and Gore about 7,000 votes.



At 10:00 p.m., which networks took the lead in retracting the premature Florida win for Gore? They were CNN and CBS, not Fox. (The two networks were using a shared Decision Team.) See Linda Mason, Kathleen Francovic & Kathleen Hall Jamieson, "CBS News Coverage of Election Night 2000: Investigation, Analysis, Recommendations" (CBS News, Jan. 2001), pp. 12-25.)



In fact, Fox did not retract its claim that Gore had won Florida until 2 a.m.--four hours after other networks had withdrawn the call.



Over four hours later, at 2:16 a.m., Fox projected Bush as the Florida winner, as did all the other networks by 2:20 a.m.



At 3:59 a.m., CBS took the lead in retracting the Florida call for Bush. All the other networks, including Fox, followed the CBS lead within eight minutes. That the networks arrived at similar conclusions within a short period of time is not surprising, since they were all using the same data from the Voter News Service. (Mason, et al. "CBS News Coverage.") As the CBS timeline details, throughout the evening all networks used VNS data to call states, even though VNS had not called the state; sometimes the network calls were made hours ahead of the VNS call.



Moore’s editing technique of the election night segment is typical of his style: all the video clips are real clips, and nothing he says is, narrowly speaking, false. But notice how he says, "Then something called the Fox News Channel called the election in favor of the other guy…" The impression created is that the Fox call of Florida for Bush came soon after the CBS/CNN calls of Florida for Gore, and that Fox caused the other networks to change ("All of a sudden the other networks said, 'Hey, if Fox said it, it must be true.'")



This is the essence of the Moore technique: cleverly blending half-truths to deceive the viewer.



[Moore response: On the Florida victory celebration, none. On the networks calls: provides citations for the early and incorrect Florida calls for Gore, around 8 p.m. Eastern Time, and for the late-evening network calls of Florida for Bush around 2:20 a.m. Doesn't mention the retraction of the Florida calls at 10 p.m., or that CBS led the retraction.]



2000 Election Recount

Deceit 3



How did Bush win Florida? "Second, make sure the chairman of your campaign is also the vote count woman." Actually Florida Secretary of State Katherine Harris (who was Bush's Florida co-chair, not "the chairman") was not the "vote count woman." Vote counting in Florida is performed by the election commissioners in each of Florida's counties. The Florida Secretary of State merely certifies the reported vote. The office does not count votes.



A little while later, Fahrenheit shows Jeffrey Toobin (a sometime talking head lawyer for CNN) claiming that if the Supreme Court had allowed a third recount to proceed past the legal deadline, "under every scenario Gore won the election."



Fahrenheit shows only a snippet of Toobin's remarks on CNN. What Fahrenheit does not show is that Toobin admitted on CNN that the only scenarios for a Gore victory involved a type of recount which Gore had never requested in his lawsuits, and which would have been in violation of Florida law. Toobin's theory likewise depends on re-assigning votes which are plainly marked for one candidate (Pat Buchanan) to Gore, although there are no provisions in Florida law to guess at who a voter "really" meant to vote for and to re-assign the vote.



A study by a newspaper consortium including the Miami Herald and USA Today disproves Fahrenheit's claim that Gore won under any scenario. As USA Today summarized, on May 11, 2001:

"Who would have won if Al Gore had gotten manual counts he requested in four counties? Answer: George W. Bush."

"Who would have won if the U.S. Supreme Court had not stopped the hand recount of undervotes, which are ballots that registered no machine-readable vote for president? Answer: Bush, under three of four standards."

"Who would have won if all disputed ballots — including those rejected by machines because they had more than one vote for president — had been recounted by hand? Answer: Bush, under the two most widely used standards; Gore, under the two least used."

Throughout the Florida election controversy, the focus was on "undervotes"--ballots which were disqualified because the voter had not properly indicated a candidate, such as by punching out a small piece of paper on the paper ballot. The recounts attempted to discern voter intentions from improperly-marked ballots. Thus, if a ballot had a "hanging chad," a recount official might decide that the voter intended to vote for the candidate, but failed to properly punch out the chad; so the recounter would award the candidate a vote from the "spoiled" ballot. Gore was seeking additional recounts only of undervotes. The only scenario by which Gore would have won Florida would have involved recounts of "overvotes"--ballots which were spoiled because the voter voted for more than one candidate (such as by marking two names, or by punching out two chads). Most of the overvotes which were recoverable were those on which the voter had punched out a chad (or made a check mark) and had also written the candidate's name on the write-in line. Gore's lawsuits never sought a recount of overvotes, so even if the Supreme Court had allowed a Florida recount to continue past the legal deadline, Bush still would have won the additional recount which Gore sought.



A separate study conducted by a newspaper consortium including the New York Times and Wall Street Journal found that if there had been a statewide recount of all undervotes and overvotes, Gore would have won under seven different standards. However, if there had been partial recounts under any of the various recounts sought by Gore or ordered by the Florida Supreme Court, Bush would have won under every scenario.

A very interesting web widget published by the New York Times allows readers to crunch the data any way they want: what standards for counting ballots, whose counting system to apply, and how to treat overvotes. It's certainly possible under some of the variable scenarios to produce a Gore victory. But it's undeniably dishonest for Fahrenheit to assert that Gore would win under any scenario.

Moore amplifies the deceit with a montage of newspaper headlines, purporting to show that Gore really won. One article shows a date of December 19, 2001, with a large headline reading, "Latest Florida recount shows Gore won Election." The article supposedly comes from The Pantagraph, a daily newspaper in Bloomington, Illinois. But actually, the headline is merely for a letter to the editor--not a news article. The letter to the editor headline is significantly enlarged to make it look like an article headline. The actual printed letter looked nothing like the "article" Moore fabricated for the film. The letter ran on December 5, not December 19. The Pantagraph ontacted Moore's office to ask for an explanation, but the office refused to comment.

The Pantagraph's attorney has sent Fahrenheit's distributor a letter stating that Moore's use of the faked headline and story was "unauthorized" and "misleading" and a" misrepresentation of facts." The letter states that Moore infringed the copyright of The Pantagraph, and asks for an apology, a correction, and an explanation. The letters asks Moore to "correct the inaccurate information which has been depicted in your film."

[Moore response: Cites articles consistent with my explanation. Fails to acknowledge that the only scenarios for a Gore victory involved recounting methods which Gore never requested in his lawsuits. To tell viewers that Gore would have won "under every scenario" is absurd. No explanation for The Pantagaph fraud.]



Florida Purge of Convicted Felons from Voter Rolls

Deceit 4



According to Fahrenheit, Bush cronies hired Data Base Technologies to purge Florida voters who might vote for Gore, and these potential voters were purged from the voting rolls on the basis of race. ("Second, make sure the chairman of your campaign is also the vote count woman. And that her state has hired a company that's gonna knock voters off the rolls who aren't likely to vote for you. You can usually tell 'em by the color of their skin.") As explained by the Palm Beach Post, Moore's suggestion is extremely incomplete, and on at least one fact, plainly false.



The 1998 mayoral election in Miami was a fiasco which was declared void by Florida courts, because--in violation of Florida law--convicted felons had been allowed to vote. The Florida legislature ordered the executive branch to purge felons from the voting rolls before the next election. Following instructions from Florida officials, Data Base Technologies (DBT) aggressively attempted to identify all convicted felons who were illegally registered to vote in Florida.



There were two major problems with the purge. First, several states allow felons to vote once they have completed their sentences. Some of these ex-felons moved to Florida and were, according to a court decision, eligible to vote. Florida improperly purged these immigrant felons.



Second, the comprehensive effort to identify all convicted felons led to a large number of false positives, in which persons with, for example, the same name as a convicted felon, were improperly purged. Purged voters were, in most cases, notified months before the election and given an opportunity to appeal, but the necessity to file an appeal was in itself a barrier which probably discouraged some legitimate, non-felon citizens from voting. According to the Palm Beach Post, at least 1,100 people were improperly purged.



The overbreadth of the purge was well-known in Florida before the election. As a result, election officials in 20 of Florida's counties ignored the purge list entirely. In these counties, convicted felons were allowed to vote. Also according to the Post, thousands of felons were improperly allowed to vote in the 20 non-purging counties. Analysis by Abigail Thernstrom and Russell G. Redenbaugh, dissenting from a report by the U.S. Civil Rights Commission, suggests that about 5,600 felons voted illegally in Florida. (The Thernstrom/Redenbaugh dissent explains why little credit should be given to the majority report, which was produced by flagrantly ignoring data.)



When allowed to vote, felons vote approximately 69 percent Democratic, according to a study in the American Sociological Review. Therefore, if the thousands of felons in the non-purging 20 counties had not been illegally allowed to vote, it is likely that Bush's statewide margin would have been substantially larger.



Regardless, Moore's suggestion that the purge was conducted on the basis of race was indisputably false. As the Palm Beach Post details, all the evidence shows that Data Base Technologies did not use race as a basis for the purge. Indeed, DBT's refusal to take note of a registered voter's race was one of the reasons for the many cases of mistaken identity.

DBT's computers had matched these people with felons, though in dozens of cases they did not share the same name, birthdate, gender or race...[A] review of state records, internal e-mails of DBT employees and testimony before the civil rights commission and an elections task force showed no evidence that minorities were specifically targeted. Records show that DBT told the state it would not use race as a criterion to identify felons. The list itself bears that out: More than 1,000 voters were matched with felons though they were of different races.

The appeals record supports the Palm Beach Post's findings. Based on the numbers of successful appeals, blacks were less likely to have been improperly placed on the purge list: of the blacks who were purged, 5.1 percent successfully appealed. Of Hispanics purged, 8.7 percent successfully appealed. Of whites purged, 9.9 percent successfully appealed. John R. Lott, Jr., "Nonvoted Ballots and Discrimination in Florida," Journal of Legal Studies, vol. 32 (Jan. 2003), p. 209. Of course it is theoretically possible that the appeals officials discriminated against blacks, or that improperly purged blacks were not as likely to appeal as were people of other races. But no one has offered any evidence to support such possibilities.



[Moore response: Cites various articles about the felon purge. Offers no evidence to support the claim that voters were targeted on the basis of race.]



Bush Presidency before September 11

Deceit 5



The movie lauds an anti-Bush riot that took place in Washington, D.C., on the day of Bush’s inauguration. He claims that protestors "pelted Bush's limo with eggs." Actually, it was just one egg, according to the BBC. According to Moore, "No President had ever witnessed such a thing on his inauguration day. " According to CNN, Richard Nixon faced comparable protests in 1969 and 1973. According to USA Today, the anti-Bush organizers claimed that they expected 20,000 protesters to show up, whereas the anti-Nixon protest in 1973 drew 60,000 people. (USA Today, Jan. 20, 2001).



Moore says, "The plan to have Bush get out of the limo for the traditional walk to the White House was scrapped. But according to the BBC, "Mr. Bush delighted his supporters by getting out of his limousine and walked the last block of the parade, holding hands with his wife Laura."



Moore continues: "And for the next eight months it didn’t get any better for George W. Bush. He couldn’t get his judges appointed; he had trouble getting his legislation passed; and he lost Republican control of the Senate. His approval ratings in the polls began to sink."



Part of this is true. Once Vermont Senator Jim Jeffords left the Republican party, Democrats controlled the Senate, and stalled the confirmation of some of the judges whom Bush had nominated for the federal courts.



Congress did enact the top item on Bush’s agenda: a large tax cut. During the summer, the Republican-controlled House of Representatives easily passed many of Bush’s other agenda items, including the bill whose numbering reflected the President’s top priority: H.R. 1, the Bush "No Child Left Behind" education bill. The fate of the Bush bills in the Democratic-controlled Senate, as of August 2001, was uncertain. The Senate later did pass No Child Left Behind, but some other Bush proposals did not pass.



Moore says that Bush's "approval ratings in the polls began to sink." This is not entirely accurate, although I haven't counted this issue as a "deceit." From January 2001 to September 2001, Bush's approval ratings in almost all polls fluctuated pretty narrowly in a 50-59% range. Moore accurately cites a Christian Science Monitor poll with 45 percent approval for Bush on September 5, 2001, but the low result here is an outlier compared to the overall poll trend. What really changed for Bush, pollwise, was not that his approval ratings were sinking, but that his disapproval ratings had risen. The national polls showed that the approve/disapprove gap for Bush was much larger in January 2001 than in the late summer of 2001. So Moore is correct that Bush's polls numbers had deteriorated, although Moore's phrasing is not correct.



"He was already beginning to look like a lame duck President." Maybe in Moore's imagination. No serious political commentator made such a claim in 2001.



Bush is quoted as saying, "A dictatorship would be a heck of a lot easier, there's no question about it." What Moore fails to note, though, is that the quote, from July 26, 2001, is a facetious joke, like Moore's claim in Dude, Where's my Country? that he did not have sex until age 32.



Another Bush joke is presented as an obvious joke, although important context is missing. Near the end of the movie, Bush speaks to a tuxedoed audience. He says, "I call you the haves and the have-mores. Some call you the elite; I call you my base." The joke follows several segments in which Bush is accused of having started the Iraq war in order to enrich business. As far the movie audience can tell, Bush is speaking to some unknown group of rich people. The speech actually comes from the October 19, 2000, Alfred E. Smith Memorial Foundation Dinner. The 2000 event was the 55th annual dinner, which raises money for Catholic hospital charities in New York City. Candidates Bush and Gore were the co-guests of honor at the event, where speakers traditionally make fun of themselves.



Gore joked, "The Al Smith Dinner represents a hallowed and important tradition, which I actually did invent." Lampooning his promise to put Social Security in a "lock box," Gore promised that he would put "Medicare in a walk-in closet," put NASA funding in a "hermetically sealed Ziploc bag" and would "always keep lettuce in the crisper." Mary Ann Poust, "Presidential hopefuls Gore and Bush mix humor and politics at Al Smith Dinner," Catholic New York, Oct. 26, 2000. So although Fahrenheit presents the joke as epitomizing Bush's selfishness, the joke really was part of Bush helping to raise $1.6 million for medical care for the poor. Although many a truth is said in jest, Bush's joke was no more revealing than was Gore's claim to have founded the dinner in 1946, two years before he was born. (CBS News story on the same event.)



[Moore response: Cites articles predicting that Bush would have trouble with Congress on Arctic drilling, campaign finance, and faith-based charity. Cites a California poll in which Bush's disapproval rating equaled his approval rating. Cites a couple of additional polls, selecting Bush's worst results. No response on the distortion of the Alfred E. Smith Dinner.]



Bush Vacations

Deceits 6-7



Fahrenheit 9/11 states, "In his first eight months in office before September 11th, George W. Bush was on vacation, according to the Washington Post, forty-two percent of the time."

Shortly before 9/11, the Post calculated that Bush had spent 42 percent of his presidency at vacation spots or en route, including all or part of 54 days at his ranch. That calculation, however, includes weekends, which Moore failed to mention.

Tom McNamee, "Just the facts on ‘Fahrenheit 9/11’ Chicago Sun-Times, June 28, 2004. See also: Mike Allen, "White House On the Range. Bush Retreats to Ranch for ‘Working Vacation’," Washington Post, August 7, 2001 (Many of those days are weekends, and the Camp David stays have included working visits with foreign leaders.)



Reader Scott Marquardt looked into a random week of Bush's August 2001 "vacation." Using public documents from www.whitehouse.gov, here is what he found:

Monday, August 20
Spoke concerning the budget while visiting a high school in Independence, Missouri.
Spoke at the annual Veteran's of Foreign Wars convention in Milwaukee, Wisconsin.

Signed six bills into law.

Announced his nominees for Chief Financial Officer of the Department of Agriculture, Assistant Secretary of the Army for Financial Management, member of the Federal Housing Finance Board, Assistant Secretary of Labor for Disabled Employment Policy, U.S. Representative to the General Assembly of the U.N., and Assistant Administrator of the U.S. Agency for International Development for the Bureau of Humanitarian Response.

Spoke with workers at the Harley Davidson factory.
Dined with Kansas Governor Bill Graves, discussing politics.


Tuesday, August 21
Took press questions at a Target store in Kansas City, Missouri.
Spoke with Canadian Prime Minister Jean Chretien on the matter of free trade and tariffs on Canadian lumber.



Wednesday, August 22
Met with Karen Hughes, Condi Rice, and Josh Bolten, and other staff (more than one meeting).
Conferenced with Mexico's president for about 20 minutes on the phone. They discussed Argentina's economy and the International Monetary fund's role in bringing sustainability to the region. They also talked about immigration and Fox's planned trip to Washington.
Communicated with Margaret LaMontagne, who was heading up a series of immigration policy meetings.
Released the Mid-Session Review, a summary of the economic outlook for the next decade, as well as of the contemporary economy and budget.
Announced nomination and appointment intentions for Ambassador to Vietnam, two for the Commission on Fine Arts, six to serve on the Commission on the Future of the United States Aerospace Industry, three for the Advisory Committee to the Pension Benefits Guaranty Corporation, one to the Board of Directors of the Corporation for Public Broadcasting, and one to the National Endowments for the Arts.
Issued a Presidential Determination ordering a military drawdown for Tunisia.
Issued a statement regarding the retirement of Jesse Helms.

Thursday, August 23
Briefly spoke with the press.
Visited Crawford Elementary School, fielded questions from students.

Friday, August 24
Officials arrived from Washington at 10:00 AM. Shortly thereafter, at a press conference, Bush announced that General Richard B. Myers will be the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs and General Pete Pac will serve as Vice Chairman of the Joint Chiefs. He also announced 14 other appointments, and his intentions for the budget. At 11:30 AM these officials, as well as National Security Council experts, the Secretary of Defense, and others, met with Bush to continue the strategic review process for military transformation (previous meetings have been held at the Pentagon and the White House). The meeting ended at 5:15.
Met with Andy Card and Karen Hughes, talking about communications issues.
Issued a proclamation honoring Women's Equality Day.

Saturday, August 25
Awoke at 5:45 AM, read daily briefs.
Had an hour-long CIA and national security briefing at 7:45
Gave his weekly radio address on the topic of The Budget.

Having shown a clip from August 25 with Bush explaining how he likes to work on the ranch, Moore announces "George Bush spent the rest of the August at the ranch." Not so, as Scott Marquardt found by looking at Bush's activity for the very next day.

Sunday, August 26
Speaks at the Little League World Series in Williamsport, Pennsylvania.
Speaks at the U.S. Steel Group Steelworkers Picnic at Mon Valley Works, southeast of Pittsburgh. He also visits some employees still working, not at the picnic.

Marquandt looked up Bush's activities for the next three days:

Declared a major disaster area in Ohio and orders federal aid. This affects Brown, Butler, Clermont and Hamilton counties.
Sent a report on progress toward a "solution of the Cyprus question" to the Speaker of the House and the Chairman of the Senate Committee on Foreign Relations.
Announced his intention to nominate Kathleen Burton Clarke to be Director of the Bureau of Land Management (Department of the Interior).
Spoke at the American Legion's 83rd annual convention in San Antonio, discussing defense priorities. Decommissioned the Air Force One jet that flew 444 missions, from the Nixon administration to Bush's retirement ceremony for the plane in Waco, Texas.
Attended the dedication ceremony of the San Antonio Missions National Historical Park in San Antonio.
Announced appointment of 13 members of the Presidential Task Force to Improve Health Care Delivery for Our Nations Veterans.

Christopher Hitchens notes:

[T]he shot of him "relaxing at Camp David" shows him side by side with Tony Blair. I say "shows," even though this photograph is on-screen so briefly that if you sneeze or blink, you won’t recognize the other figure. A meeting with the prime minister of the United Kingdom, or at least with this prime minister, is not a goof-off.



The president is also captured in a well-worn TV news clip, on a golf course, making a boilerplate response to a question on terrorism and then asking the reporters to watch his drive. Well, that’s what you get if you catch the president on a golf course.

Christopher Hitchens, "Unfairenheit 9/11: The lies of Michael Moore," Slate.com, June 21, 2004. (Some of Moore's defenders have denounced Hitchens as a member of the vast-right wing conspiracy. Hitchens, however, wrote an obituary of Ronald Reagan recalling his lone meeting with Reagan, when he asked a question which made Reagan angry: "The famously genial grin turned into a rictus of senile fury: I was looking at a cruel and stupid lizard." Hitchens also wrote a book and produced a movie, The Trials of Henry Kissinger, urging that Kissinger be tried for war crimes.)



By the way, the clip of Bush making a comment about terrorism, and then hitting a golf ball, is also taken out of context, at least partially:

Tuesday night on FNC’s Special Report with Brit Hume, Brian Wilson noted how "the viewer is left with the misleading impression Mr. Bush is talking about al-Qaeda terrorists." But Wilson disclosed that "a check of the raw tape reveals the President is talking about an attack against Israel, carried out by a Palestinian suicide bomber."

"Cyberalert," Media Research Center, July 1, 2004, item. 3.



Interestingly, as detailed in Bill Clinton's autobiography My Life, in November 1995. when President Clinton learned that Israel's Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin had been shot, Clinton went out to the White House lawn and hit golf balls while he waited to learn if Rabin would live. That Clinton played golf after learning of a terrible crime in Israel obviously does not mean that he did not care about the crime. If a television station had recorded some footage of Clinton hitting golf balls that awful night, it would have easy for a hyper-partisan film-maker to use the footage against Clinton unfairly.



Moore wraps up the vacation segment: "It was a summer to remember. And when it was over, he left Texas for his second favorite place." The movie then shows Bush in Florida. Actually, he went back to Washington, where he gave a speech on August 31.



[Moore response: Accurately quotes the Washington Post: "if you add up all his weekends at Camp David, layovers at Kennebunkport and assorted to-ing and fro-ing, W. will have spent 42 percent of his presidency 'at vacation spots or en route.'" Does not attempt to defend Fahrenheit's mischaracterization of the Post's meaning. Does not explain why the Israeli context was removed from the Bush quote. Does not defend the claim that Bush went from Texas to Florida.]


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Old 08-07-2004, 10:38 AM   #2 (permalink)
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I wonder how many times President Bush has deceited your country, and the world. I wish someone would make up a list of his deceits, there would be a hundreds.
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Old 08-07-2004, 11:06 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by matteo101
I wonder how many times President Bush has deceited your country, and the world. I wish someone would make up a list of his deceits, there would be a hundreds.
I'm hoping this thread (originally in General Discussion) will not become a flame war over politics. I don't think this belongs in politics so be that as it may I guess we could end up headed down that path. That would be unfortunate.

This film (the subject of my post) and it's director's ideology are what I was hoping we might be able to discuss. In this post I did not attempt to defend the Bush administration or did I state any political view.

As for the previous poster's request for a Bush list, the article (if he even bothered to read it) mentions mis-truths created by the Bush administration.

Here is an example:

Quote:
For example, the Bush administration suppressed data from its own Department of Health and Human Services which showed that the cost of the new Prescription Drug Benefit would be much larger than the administration claimed. This lie was critical to passage of the Bush drug benefit bill.
I enourage everyone to read the article and understand the Micheal Moore's F - 9/11, while at times entertaining, is also based on exaggerations and creative license taken from sound bites or other more flagrant mistatememts of fact that have been assembled to serve his ideology.
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Old 08-07-2004, 11:13 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Well, in all fairness:


Link: Factual Back-Up For Fahrenheit 9/11


From what I've seen and heard about that list of "deceits", most of what the author and Moore disagree on is simply a matter of spin. Take it for what it's worth, I guess.

I worry that the same thing is happening with F:9/11 that happened with Bowling for Columbine. Instead of discussing the issues the film raises and perhaps asking the tough questions, people instead want to focus on things like whether this clip coupled with that clip creates an unfair portrayal. With Bowling for Columbine, all I heard about was whether or not that particular Lockheed Martin factory produced missiles at that point in time or not. Or that a clip of Heston was misrepresented. No one actually wanted to talk about why so many Americans die due to gun attacks.

Spin meant to counter other spin. Bullshit really baffles the brain, doesn't it?

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Old 08-07-2004, 11:35 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by kjroh
I enourage everyone to read the article and understand the Micheal Moore's F - 9/11, while at times entertaining, is also based on exaggerations and creative license taken from sound bites or other more flagrant mistatememts of fact that have been assembled to serve his ideology.
That is your opinion that the movie is exaggerated, and that the sound bites are assembled to serve his ideology, but on the other hand the same could be said about dubya, I mean he fabricated WMD as to have an excuse to invade Iraq.
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Old 08-07-2004, 11:39 AM   #6 (permalink)
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It's entertainment. Just like Limbaugh. How many times does Limbaugh or O'Reilly or Coulter stretch the truth and it gets taken as fact?

Both sides (the MMs and the Limbaughs) work hard at character assassination and the media licks their lips and thrives on it... who cares about the true fucking issues when you can have entertainment tell you how to vote and think.

Jesus, fucking stop on MM already, I'm tired of hearing the GOP and all these "holier than thou's" trying to make more of it than it is.

Ray Davies of the KINKS actually wrote a good ending to my rant so lifting from the song Entertainment (from the album UK JIVE) I end on this note:
==========================
"There's been another assassination
T.V. cameras moving in.
To shoot the bloodstains on the pavement
And get them on the News at Ten.
Will he live or will he die, before we go on the air?
Yes, the networks are all there, in the name of
Entertainment.

Superstar psycho, from a killer to a hero,
An overnight sensation on the lips of all the nation
Is he mad or is he sane? It makes for good conversation
I call it suffering and pain, but they call it entertainment

Sex violence murder and rape. (Entertainment Entertainment)
That's what you came for, that's what you pay for.

Entertainment, Entertainment.

They call it Entertainment
Inform us, educate us with your media machine
(Call it Entertainment)
Tell me what to dream
(Call it Entertainment)
You pay your money, what do you get?
Entertainment.

Real life for Entertainment,
Cheapens my reality,
So that Hollywood can make it into another "B" movie
The vultures get the rating and the people get the thrills
But the victims always pay, I guess they always will.

Sex violence murder and rape (Entertainment Entertainment)
That's what you want, that's what they need,
That's what you came for, that's what your paying for.

They call it Entertainment (Call it Entertainment)
Inform us, educate us with your media machine,
(Call it Entertainment)
Tell me what to dream
(Call it Entertainment)
You pay your money, what do you get?

Entertainment, Entertainment. "

God help us we are becoming that. Educated and told how to think by the media.
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Old 08-07-2004, 11:41 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by silent_jay
That is your opinion that the movie is exaggerated, and that the sound bites are assembled to serve his ideology, but on the other hand the same could be said about dubya, I mean he fabricated WMD as to have an excuse to invade Iraq.
Okay I'm NOT DEFENDING BUSH. I'm not discussing Bush. If you want to read the article I've posted and discuss it's contents then please reply in this thread. If you want to start a new thread where you bash Bush and his policies please ....feel free.
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Old 08-07-2004, 12:44 PM   #8 (permalink)
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A person's point of view is the largest factor in what we choose to believe.

This was driven home in a film I recently saw. While the film was not political, the point it made left quite an impression on me.
The film presented facts that lead one to draw a certain, seemingly undeniable conclusion about events. The film then turns completely and shows the exact same facts from a different point of view and destroys any notion of truth one had before.

This is true of politics and of Moore's film. I tend to believe Moore's film because of my point of view. However, I must be emotionally mature enough to realize that my believing it doesn't make it undeniable truth.

--------
By the way, the film I saw was <i>He Loves Me, He Loves Me Not</i>. It's a french film.
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Old 08-07-2004, 01:04 PM   #9 (permalink)
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It will be a very sad day when the mass media will control not only our self-images and our conceptions of reality - which is where things are now, IMO - but also control our politics. I see this day as near and inevitable, if not this election cycle, then the next one. That will be the end of democracy. Once the power of mass media attains the goal of the creation of a new system of government, (mediaopoly) there will be no way to escape it.
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Old 08-07-2004, 01:30 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by ARTelevision
It will be a very sad day when the mass media will control not only our self-images and our conceptions of reality - which is where things are now, IMO - but also control our politics. I see this day as near and inevitable, if not this election cycle, then the next one. That will be the end of democracy. Once the power of mass media attains the goal of the creation of a new system of government, (mediaopoly) there will be no way to escape it.
I feel that not only are we already there, there's little that can be done about it... and this makes me very sad indeed.
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Old 08-07-2004, 02:22 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by kjroh
Okay I'm NOT DEFENDING BUSH. I'm not discussing Bush. If you want to read the article I've posted and discuss it's contents then please reply in this thread. If you want to start a new thread where you bash Bush and his policies please ....feel free.
Yeah, Ummm I wasn't bashing Bush read the post and I did take time to read your article, I was replying to things that you posted, or is this a thread where that doesn't happen? You see you may not be defending Bush but when you type this

Quote:
Originally posted by kjroh
I enourage everyone to read the article and understand the Micheal Moore's F - 9/11, while at times entertaining, is also based on exaggerations and creative license taken from sound bites or other more flagrant mistatememts of fact that have been assembled to serve his ideology.
I feel that I should be able to reply. I wasn't "bashing" Bush as you put it, I was showing that he too is guilty of fabricating things. For someone who isn't discussing Bush the name sure is all over the post.
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Old 08-07-2004, 04:48 PM   #12 (permalink)
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I truly enjoyed the movie, and expected the inevitable "emphasis" Mr. Moore spun into the film. The message of the film (in my opinion) is of more importance than the creative liscence taken by the director.
Yes, there are exagerations, if not fabrications in the content of F 9/11. Does that make the commentary suspect? Not to someone who has the intellect required to make descisions based on accumulated information. Moore probably felt the need to create impact to bring attention to a situation that one would hope is relatively obvious, but sadly is not. I firmly believe we have been decieved on many occasions by the current administration, just as we likely have been by those before it. hiding information, can be as bad as fabricating it, this administration is just blatant in its propoganda, rather than stealthful.
That said, it is unfortunate that hollywood was needed to inform the masses, simply because the government lacked the fortitude to do so itself.

( the above statement is opinion, and does not inherently reflect the opinions of our station or its underwriters, any resemblence to any other opinion, from those living, dead or hiding in the cellar is entirely unintended, and coincidental)
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Old 08-07-2004, 05:10 PM   #13 (permalink)
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This stuff drives me nuts.

For every site claiming that F911 is chock full of lies, there's another site with a laundry list of "facts" proving it wrong, and for every one of THOSE sites there's another... etc...

It's all a cycle of nonsense.

I'm finding that no matter what stance you take, you simply won't win.
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Old 08-07-2004, 05:12 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by analog
I feel that not only are we already there, there's little that can be done about it... and this makes me very sad indeed.
My thoughts exactly. We ARE there, and that's because there's too much corporate influence in our political system, which is why I'm surprised that people continue to vote for these people.

Every politician is easily bought. Just look at the movie/music industry and how much cash they're pumping in to get all these ridiculous copyright laws passed...

What was it... six corporations that control all the media in this country? Shit, and to think that 10 years ago (might've been more), they were flipping out that it was "only" 40 or so..
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Old 08-07-2004, 05:57 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Now that I've thought about it, I prefer the term, "mediarchy" as a neologism for the developing form of "government" that has taken over the world, or will very soon. I think it would not be possible for "corporations" to do this alone if it were not for the legions of co-opted "artists" (content creators, media icons, producers, etc) who believe they have the ability to think in realistic, political ways but are in actuality only egotististical pawns of the organizations that promote them.
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Old 08-07-2004, 06:06 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by matteo101
I wonder how many times President Bush has deceited your country, and the world. I wish someone would make up a list of his deceits, there would be a hundreds.
If only there could be a thread for criticisms of Bush!


....
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Old 08-08-2004, 11:03 AM   #17 (permalink)
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The one big Question that Moore asks, which no member of Bush and company has ever answered is:

"How is it that when no-one else in the world was allowed to fly, all those Saudi Nationals were given a free pass out of the country on the only non military plane flying the next day????"

I'd really like to know the answer to that one.

I am sure that there were a few bad Saudis mixed in with the not so bad Saudis, mixed in with the ok but knew what was going on Saudis, mixed in the regular Saudis.

Either way, something is really fishy or incredibly stupid there.

Take your pick.
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Old 08-08-2004, 02:00 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by FoolThemAll
If only there could be a thread for criticisms of Bush!


....
Not allowed though, he is your fearless leader
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Old 08-08-2004, 09:42 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by silent_jay
Not allowed though, he is your fearless leader
Who's not allowing anti-Bush threads?
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Old 08-09-2004, 07:12 AM   #20 (permalink)
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They aren't banned on the forum or anything, but I am positive that they will be locked fairly quickly.
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Old 08-09-2004, 11:12 AM   #21 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Stompy
This stuff drives me nuts.

For every site claiming that F911 is chock full of lies, there's another site with a laundry list of "facts" proving it wrong, and for every one of THOSE sites there's another... etc...

It's all a cycle of nonsense.

I'm finding that no matter what stance you take, you simply won't win.
It's called PROFIT.... the word of mouth gets the attention going, then people see the movie, and their interest is piqued and they want to learn more. They then visit "laundry lists" that have come out to focus on the "falsehoods.

Each "laundry list" website links you to other websites that get more hits so they can sell more ads on that site.

Then the "laundry lists" come out to support the "falsehoods" and debunk the other sites with links of their own which in turn take you to links that get their hit base raised so that they can charge more for ad space.

And on and on and they make more and more no matter which side they took. It's all profit.

=============
Quote:
Originally posted by silent_jay
They aren't banned on the forum or anything, but I am positive that they will be locked fairly quickly.
There's the "why do you hate Bush thread".

Silent, the mods don't lock threads down just to lock them down, 99% of the time they issue warnings before any thread is locked.

It's just a matter of respect and staying on topic. Tensions and passions run high and people (including myself) can get very carried away and start typing and not realize what they said and how negatively it was said until it was posted.

This usually rises someone else's ire and before you know it the topic is ignored and namecalling is all that is being done (been there also). The mods try to stop this cycle before it starts and they do a damn good job. I have yet to see any true "official" bias but they do and should have their own opinions but they don't lock a thread based on those.

Halx and company have one of the best forums on the net and deservedly so because they work hard to let us be heard but they also have very short ropes to allow flamers and trolls to feast.
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Old 08-09-2004, 12:29 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by pan6467

Silent, the mods don't lock threads down just to lock them down, 99% of the time they issue warnings before any thread is locked.

It's just a matter of respect and staying on topic. Tensions and passions run high and people (including myself) can get very carried away and start typing and not realize what they said and how negatively it was said until it was posted.

This usually rises someone else's ire and before you know it the topic is ignored and namecalling is all that is being done (been there also). The mods try to stop this cycle before it starts and they do a damn good job. I have yet to see any true "official" bias but they do and should have their own opinions but they don't lock a thread based on those.

Halx and company have one of the best forums on the net and deservedly so because they work hard to let us be heard but they also have very short ropes to allow flamers and trolls to feast.
Sorry about that I didn't mean the mods would lock the thread for no reason, I meant that people have a hard time expressing themselves in a civil way sometimes (myself included), much like you said. Sorry for any confusion.
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Old 08-09-2004, 06:28 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Silent-jay,

why is it that people can say that Bush purposely misled people about WMDs when he or nobody else knew any differently? How can it be a Bush fabrication when everyone said the same thing?
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Old 08-11-2004, 07:43 AM   #24 (permalink)
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Who is this everyone that said the same thing? Bush or nobody else knew different? Yeah not like people all over the world were saying that Iraq had no WMD, maybe if Bush decided to read a security briefing he might be get something right.

Surely in this "everyone saing the same thing" you don't mean Mr. Blix who was saying all along that the UN inspectors need more time to see if there actually was anything. Or are you talking about what the administartion of Bush said? If the latter is the case well then of course they all said the same thing if they don't they're gone.

Maybe mention some people (not members of the Bush administration) who agreed there were WMD instead of using the word "everyone" which most people already know to be true.
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Old 08-12-2004, 07:20 AM   #25 (permalink)
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Well phyzix525 I answered your questions, I await your reply.
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Old 08-12-2004, 07:39 AM   #26 (permalink)
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one thing really hits home with me. moore calls on the media for dropping the ball.

when jfk was talking about the cuban missile crisis, he had satellite photos which showed us, over 40 years ago, where these missile silo's were.

colin powell had computer drawings!!!!!

where was the media in all this. we depend on the media to ask the questions.

it really is our own fault. we are becoming a fat and apathetic nation and both parties are trying to take advantage of it.

bushes puppet masters got there first.
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Old 08-12-2004, 09:48 AM   #27 (permalink)
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Michael Moore was very up-front about the fact that the film was a 'point of view', and he admitted he wanted Bush out of office. He never claimed to be a neutral observer.

I went into the film with that in mind, and formed my own opinions with that in mind. I encourage everyone to do the same. Getting into miniscule blow-by-blow and spin vs. spin really is detracting from the larger issues.
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