Forgive me for being suspicious... - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Halx · 07-28-2004, 10:46 AM

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...orida_voting_5

Quote:

Touchscreen Vote Records Lost in Florida

By HILARY ROXE, Associated Press Writer

MIAMI - A computer crash erased detailed records from Miami-Dade County's first widespread use of touchscreen voting machines, raising again the specter of elections troubles in Florida, where the new technology was supposed to put an end to such problems.

The crashes occurred in May and November of 2003, erasing information from the September 2002 gubernatorial primaries and other elections, elections officials said Tuesday.

The malfunction was made public after the Miami-Dade Election Reform Coalition, a citizen's group, requested all data from the 2002 gubernatorial primary between Democratic candidates Janet Reno (news - web sites) and Bill McBride.

In December, officials began backing up the data daily, to help avoid similar data wipeouts in the future, said Seth Kaplan, spokesman for the county's elections supervisor, Constance Kaplan.

The loss of data underscores problems with the touchscreen voting machines, the citizen's group said. "This is a disaster waiting to happen," said Lida Rodriguez-Taseff, chairwoman of the Miami-Dade Election Reform Coalition. "Of course it's worrisome."

The group is concerned about the machines' effectiveness, following revelations about other problems with the system. Last month, state officials said the touchscreen systems used by 11 counties had a bug that would make a manual recount impossible. Earlier this month, a newspaper study indicated touchscreen machines did not perform as well as those that scanned paper ballots.

Also Tuesday, election reform groups asked a judge to strike down a state rule preventing counties that use the machines from conducting manual recounts from them.

State election officers say manual recounts are not needed since the machines tell each voter if they are skipping a race, known as an undervote, and will not let them vote twice for the same race, known as an overvote. The officials also maintain that the computer systems running the machines can be trusted to count the votes accurately as they're cast, and give the final numbers when needed.

But lawyers representing the ACLU and other groups said the state should require a paper trail in case a physical recount is needed, as it was in the 2000 presidential race in Florida.

"I have concern about votes that are cast but not recorded," said Howard Simon, executive director for ACLU of Florida.

Election supervisors from some of the 15 counties using touchscreens had asked the state if they would need to go through the laborious process of printing screen images of each ballot during a recount.

The Division of Elections then ruled that state law only requires a recount to determine voters' intent, and that it is impossible to question voter intent with touchscreen ballots.

Florida counties without the touchscreen machines use optiscan technology, in which computers read voters' pencil marks on paper ballots, and would be able to do physical recounts in tight races.

Administrative Law Judge Susan B. Kirkland has 30 days to make her decision after receiving the hearing transcript, which is due back in 10 working days.

Florida's voting system has been under scrutiny since the 2000 debacle, when it took five weeks of legal maneuvering and some recounting before Republican George W. Bush was declared president.

Ok, I'm a computer guy with experience in datacenters where vast amounts of information are stored on many computers. Things crash.. that's just the grim reality of computers. However, you've gotta be the most moronic speck of insipid festering stupidity to let information as important as VOTING RESULTS to slip through your fingers as a result of a crash. There are such things as back-ups and mirrors, and if you fail to use one of these, you have got to be the most despicable of anyone to ever get hired to take care of data.

With that said, I don't believe a word of this article. I think the information was aborted on purpose.

Superbelt · 07-28-2004, 10:57 AM

Florida is in danger of becoming the next Florida.
That state is supremely fucked up election wise.

I think it's really funny how the UN offered to come in to help oversee the recount efforts of the 2000 election.

Maybe they should preempively offer again so 9,000 black democrats in Miami-Dade aren't again "mistakenly" barred from voting.

ARTelevision · 07-28-2004, 11:02 AM

Yeah, I do think current technology is way better than it's being reported to be in this particular implementation. Or else they got some extremely bad-news technologists setting this stuff up.

It feeds into the "don't trust computers" Luddite nonsense that's evidently still a very popular catch-all excuse for bad work. People seem very willing to accept reports like this as obviously true.

the_marq · 07-28-2004, 11:09 AM

Why don't you guys just appoint Dubya (again) and be done done with it?

Journeyman · 07-28-2004, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ARTelevision
It feeds into the "don't trust computers" Luddite nonsense that's evidently still a very popular catch-all excuse for bad work. People seem very willing to accept reports like this as obviously true.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Turns out, 2000 Florida election was broken in a couple places, so they fixed it... with more broken stuff. Demands for accountability and hard evidence in light of failure isn't about the technology, it's about the yahoos who produced bad technology that potentially disenfranchises voters.

Many voters.

kutulu · 07-28-2004, 11:39 AM

With something as important as voting results, there needs to be a way to manually count votes. All they need is a simple printout of the voter's results. Give one to the voter and one to the polling place.

Halx · 07-28-2004, 11:52 AM

kutulu, I'm sure they had all of these logical developments in place. I'm sure they turned over every stone to make sure their methods were rock solid.

However, when they saw results that they didn't wanna see, they claimed system failure.

Locobot · 07-28-2004, 12:53 PM

It's not Luddite to understand that that a preexisting technology is superior to what's newer. Accountability is a requirement of a voting system, like Halx said, there needs to be a backup. In the article accountablity was sought and there was no backup.

We're talking about counting things and keeping finite data over time and it turns out that the best technology humans have for this is physical representation on paper or stone. It's easy to reconstruct the life and career of any 17th century British naval swabbie if you have access to the paper hardcopy records. Try and investigate the U.S. military records of say even...The President of the United States...and you won't find anything due to a "microfilm flaw."

I think we do need U.N. election oversight. There are simply too few truly non-partisan people in the country right now.

Charlatan · 07-28-2004, 01:16 PM

Our municiple voting system uses a combination of ballot and computer.

We pencil in the circle (or square) beside the chosen candidate and the ballot. This ballot is then fed into a machine that scans it and records the vote.

If the machines fail, they can always count the physical cards.

phukraut · 07-28-2004, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by kutulu
With something as important as voting results, there needs to be a way to manually count votes. All they need is a simple printout of the voter's results. Give one to the voter and one to the polling place.

voting ought to be anonymous. if the voters gets recepts of their votes, then this makes pressuring voters easier by corrupt officials. they could just demand to see your receipt to make sure you voted 'properly'.

a high-tech solution is not always preferable if it opens up a bigger can of worms than sticking to what works. that isn't a luddite attitude, it's just common sense. if a new system is implemented though, then at least leave a backup paper system that can be counted manually.

ARTelevision · 07-28-2004, 02:36 PM

Yes, agreed. The tech should fit the task.

My use of the term "Luddite" referred specifically to how a story about computer failure activates the nascent Luddite in many people who read reports of it and simply believe it because they are predisposed to that belief.

mml · 07-28-2004, 10:05 PM

While I do not buy into the "right wing election conspiracy" thing, it does not help that Diebold, who makes and services these machines is run by a man who said he would do anything he can to make sure George Bush is reelected. This is certainly a time when new technology doesn't improve the situation. It will be fascinating to see how this year's election turns out.

DelayedReaction · 07-28-2004, 11:22 PM

The county I vote in (PG County, Maryland) uses an electronic system that works rather well. At least I haven't heard of any problems with it, and they used it for a few years now.

A physical copy is not hard to do, and should be done for the sake of permanency. The voter should not get a copy of the results (for the reasons stated previously), but printing out a tag that lists the results is neither hard nor a bad idea.

The problem with technology is that the people who know how to use it aren't in the position of power needed to ensure it's proper use.

Sparhawk · 07-29-2004, 02:08 PM

I will be sending in my absentee ballot to good ol (not!) Charlotte County, FL. Hopefully Kerry will have enough of a lead that my vote won't even have to be counted.

cthulu23 · 07-29-2004, 04:04 PM

I'm one of the adminstrators of the back-up system (TSM) of a major southern university and the idea that votes could just be lost points to incompetence, negligence or both. I don't think that the government of Florida is intentionally rigging the system but they are demonstrating the level of concern that they have for the accidental disenfranchisement that occured in 2000.

Supple Cow · 07-29-2004, 04:50 PM

Were those voting machines running Windows??? But seriously though...

It breaks my heart to see the media blaming technology for whatever happened. If it was fraud, it was fraud. If there was a computer malfunction, then a paper trail isn't going to solve it (especially if it's fraud and a computer 'malfunction'). Somebody should write a better program if the existing one doesn't back up the data where it's safe from crashes. There are probably 50 people just at TFP that could do it.

Superbelt · 07-30-2004, 03:40 AM

Actually, they do run windows.
They use Microsoft Access for the database.
The fuckin' database for these voting machines is good old glitchy, unsecure Access.
God forbid they use a stable and secure one.

Delvid · 07-30-2004, 11:06 AM

Brother Jeb has one job - deliver Florida. These clowns will do anything to retain power. They are morally bankrupt.

Wax_off · 07-30-2004, 11:57 AM

This just in. They "found" the data.

http://abcnews.go.com/wire/Politics/...0730_1204.html

ARTelevision · 07-30-2004, 12:33 PM

Superbelt, really? MSAccess?
sheesh!

cthulu23 · 07-30-2004, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ARTelevision
Superbelt, really? MSAccess?
sheesh!

Boggles the mind, huh? This almost makes me want to become a volunteer consultant to help tech-illiterate politicians steer clear of the worst POS systems out there.

sprocket · 07-31-2004, 05:54 PM

I worked a year in tech support. I was basically 3rd teir support. Wasnt cheap to talk to me, I was helping programmers and administrators for companies with large datacenters. It was appalling how incompetent many of these people were. They were in charge of millions of dollars worth of data, and yes, quite a few didnt know how or even realize they should back their important stuff up. It really shocked me how these people actually managed to get jobs. From that point on I lost all fear of ever being unemployed in the tech industry again.

That being said, it wouldnt suprise me if the story were true.

MSD · 08-01-2004, 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Wax_off
This just in. They "found" the data.

http://abcnews.go.com/wire/Politics/...0730_1204.html

It still kind fo bothers me that they're keeping it on a (presumably burned) CD. In my experience, if you don't keep them in an air-conditioned room with controlled humidity, they lose bits of data when you look at them funny. For an election, there should be redundant and offsite backups

Glava · 08-02-2004, 11:31 PM

It would be funny if the destiny of the United States depended on a 20 cent Taiwanese CD-R from a $10 50-pack cakebox.

Seaver · 08-03-2004, 01:00 AM

Hm.. I was neutral for the voting machines until now... MS Ass, I mean MS Access isnt the way to go for something as important for this.

Bill O'Rights · 08-03-2004, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Superbelt
They use Microsoft Access for the database.

Quote:

Originally posted by Glava
It would be funny if the destiny of the United States depended on a 20 cent Taiwanese CD-R from a $10 50-pack cakebox.

Ok...now I'm scared. Hold me.

Warf Rat · 08-03-2004, 04:12 PM

Who's to say that this so called "malfunction" isn't a way to plant the seed of doubt, about any result ???????????????

There are dishonest people in both political parties.

Why won't anyone even entertain the possibility that this is a story created (or problem created intentionally) just to look like Gov Bush will do anything to help Pres Bush.

student · 08-05-2004, 02:24 PM

Search for diebold on google. These voting machines can be hacked and all traces of someone tampering with the vote can be erased. There was a bit about it on the daily show. Also, the cfo of Diebold is a top fund raiser for Bush. The source code of the system has been ruled by a court to be a trade secret, barring anyone from analyzing the code for backdoors etc. As a computer science major, this basically boils down to diebold patenting, "vote_count++;" I guess this makes a majority of my programs in violation of copyright infringement. And all this in the state where your brother is Governor. It is sickening. They are probably laughing their asses off at the ignorance of the majority of Americans. It looks Bush will outdue his unprecedented placement into the presidency by using technology to steal the election. Hail to the theif.

07-28-2004, 11:02 AM	#3 (permalink)
ARTelevision I change Location: USA	Yeah, I do think current technology is way better than it's being reported to be in this particular implementation. Or else they got some extremely bad-news technologists setting this stuff up. It feeds into the "don't trust computers" Luddite nonsense that's evidently still a very popular catch-all excuse for bad work. People seem very willing to accept reports like this as obviously true. __________________ create evolution

07-28-2004, 11:09 AM	#4 (permalink)
the_marq All hail the Mountain King Location: Black Mesa	Why don't you guys just appoint Dubya (again) and be done done with it? __________________ The Truth: Johnny Cash could have kicked Bruce Lee's ass if he wanted to. #3 in a series

07-28-2004, 11:52 AM	#7 (permalink)
Halx Please touch this. Owner/Admin Location: Manhattan	kutulu, I'm sure they had all of these logical developments in place. I'm sure they turned over every stone to make sure their methods were rock solid. However, when they saw results that they didn't wanna see, they claimed system failure. __________________ You have found this post informative. -The Administrator [Don't Feed The Animals]

07-28-2004, 12:53 PM	#8 (permalink)
Locobot is awesome!	It's not Luddite to understand that that a preexisting technology is superior to what's newer. Accountability is a requirement of a voting system, like Halx said, there needs to be a backup. In the article accountablity was sought and there was no backup. We're talking about counting things and keeping finite data over time and it turns out that the best technology humans have for this is physical representation on paper or stone. It's easy to reconstruct the life and career of any 17th century British naval swabbie if you have access to the paper hardcopy records. Try and investigate the U.S. military records of say even...The President of the United States...and you won't find anything due to a "microfilm flaw." I think we do need U.N. election oversight. There are simply too few truly non-partisan people in the country right now. Last edited by Locobot; 07-28-2004 at 01:01 PM..

07-28-2004, 01:16 PM	#9 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	Our municiple voting system uses a combination of ballot and computer. We pencil in the circle (or square) beside the chosen candidate and the ballot. This ballot is then fed into a machine that scans it and records the vote. If the machines fail, they can always count the physical cards. __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

07-28-2004, 10:57 AM	#2 (permalink)
Superbelt This vexes me. I am terribly vexed. Location: Grantville, Pa	Florida is in danger of becoming the next Florida. That state is supremely fucked up election wise. I think it's really funny how the UN offered to come in to help oversee the recount efforts of the 2000 election. Maybe they should preempively offer again so 9,000 black democrats in Miami-Dade aren't again "mistakenly" barred from voting.

07-28-2004, 11:39 AM	#6 (permalink)
kutulu Junkie	With something as important as voting results, there needs to be a way to manually count votes. All they need is a simple printout of the voter's results. Give one to the voter and one to the polling place.

07-28-2004, 02:36 PM	#11 (permalink)
ARTelevision I change Location: USA	Yes, agreed. The tech should fit the task. My use of the term "Luddite" referred specifically to how a story about computer failure activates the nascent Luddite in many people who read reports of it and simply believe it because they are predisposed to that belief. __________________ create evolution

07-28-2004, 10:05 PM	#12 (permalink)
mml Adrift Location: Wandering in the Desert of Life	While I do not buy into the "right wing election conspiracy" thing, it does not help that Diebold, who makes and services these machines is run by a man who said he would do anything he can to make sure George Bush is reelected. This is certainly a time when new technology doesn't improve the situation. It will be fascinating to see how this year's election turns out. __________________ Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so." -Douglas Adams

07-28-2004, 11:22 PM	#13 (permalink)
DelayedReaction BFG Builder Location: University of Maryland	The county I vote in (PG County, Maryland) uses an electronic system that works rather well. At least I haven't heard of any problems with it, and they used it for a few years now. A physical copy is not hard to do, and should be done for the sake of permanency. The voter should not get a copy of the results (for the reasons stated previously), but printing out a tag that lists the results is neither hard nor a bad idea. The problem with technology is that the people who know how to use it aren't in the position of power needed to ensure it's proper use. __________________ If ignorance is bliss, you must be having an orgasm.

07-29-2004, 02:08 PM	#14 (permalink)
Sparhawk Dubya Location: VA	I will be sending in my absentee ballot to good ol (not!) Charlotte County, FL. Hopefully Kerry will have enough of a lead that my vote won't even have to be counted. __________________ "In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work. It's incredibly hard. It's - and it's hard work. I understand how hard it is. I get the casualty reports every day. I see on the TV screens how hard it is. But it's necessary work. We're making progress. It is hard work."

07-29-2004, 04:04 PM	#15 (permalink)
cthulu23 Banned	I'm one of the adminstrators of the back-up system (TSM) of a major southern university and the idea that votes could just be lost points to incompetence, negligence or both. I don't think that the government of Florida is intentionally rigging the system but they are demonstrating the level of concern that they have for the accidental disenfranchisement that occured in 2000.

07-29-2004, 04:50 PM	#16 (permalink)
Supple Cow Americow, the Beautiful Location: Washington, D.C.	Were those voting machines running Windows??? But seriously though... It breaks my heart to see the media blaming technology for whatever happened. If it was fraud, it was fraud. If there was a computer malfunction, then a paper trail isn't going to solve it (especially if it's fraud and a computer 'malfunction'). Somebody should write a better program if the existing one doesn't back up the data where it's safe from crashes. There are probably 50 people just at TFP that could do it. __________________ "I've missed more than 9000 shots in my career. I've lost almost 300 games. Twenty-six times I've been trusted to take the game winning shot and missed. I've failed over and over and over again in my life. And that is why I succeed." (Michael Jordan)

07-30-2004, 03:40 AM	#17 (permalink)
Superbelt This vexes me. I am terribly vexed. Location: Grantville, Pa	Actually, they do run windows. They use Microsoft Access for the database. The fuckin' database for these voting machines is good old glitchy, unsecure Access. God forbid they use a stable and secure one.

07-30-2004, 11:06 AM	#18 (permalink)
Delvid Insane Location: Missouri	Brother Jeb has one job - deliver Florida. These clowns will do anything to retain power. They are morally bankrupt.

07-30-2004, 11:57 AM	#19 (permalink)
Wax_off No Avatar, No Sig.	This just in. They "found" the data. http://abcnews.go.com/wire/Politics/...0730_1204.html

07-30-2004, 12:33 PM	#20 (permalink)
ARTelevision I change Location: USA	Superbelt, really? MSAccess? sheesh! __________________ create evolution

07-31-2004, 05:54 PM	#22 (permalink)
sprocket Psycho Location: In transit	I worked a year in tech support. I was basically 3rd teir support. Wasnt cheap to talk to me, I was helping programmers and administrators for companies with large datacenters. It was appalling how incompetent many of these people were. They were in charge of millions of dollars worth of data, and yes, quite a few didnt know how or even realize they should back their important stuff up. It really shocked me how these people actually managed to get jobs. From that point on I lost all fear of ever being unemployed in the tech industry again. That being said, it wouldnt suprise me if the story were true. __________________ Remember, wherever you go... there you are.

08-02-2004, 11:31 PM	#24 (permalink)
Glava Betitled	It would be funny if the destiny of the United States depended on a 20 cent Taiwanese CD-R from a $10 50-pack cakebox.

08-03-2004, 01:00 AM	#25 (permalink)
Seaver Junkie Location: Fort Worth, TX	Hm.. I was neutral for the voting machines until now... MS Ass, I mean MS Access isnt the way to go for something as important for this. __________________ "Smite the rocks with the rod of knowledge, and fountains of unstinted wealth will gush forth." - Ashbel Smith as he laid the first cornerstone of the University of Texas

08-03-2004, 04:12 PM	#27 (permalink)
Warf Rat Psycho Location: Philadelphia	Who's to say that this so called "malfunction" isn't a way to plant the seed of doubt, about any result ??????????????? There are dishonest people in both political parties. Why won't anyone even entertain the possibility that this is a story created (or problem created intentionally) just to look like Gov Bush will do anything to help Pres Bush. __________________ A day late, and a dollar short.

08-05-2004, 02:24 PM	#28 (permalink)
student Crazy	Search for diebold on google. These voting machines can be hacked and all traces of someone tampering with the vote can be erased. There was a bit about it on the daily show. Also, the cfo of Diebold is a top fund raiser for Bush. The source code of the system has been ruled by a court to be a trade secret, barring anyone from analyzing the code for backdoors etc. As a computer science major, this basically boils down to diebold patenting, "vote_count++;" I guess this makes a majority of my programs in violation of copyright infringement. And all this in the state where your brother is Governor. It is sickening. They are probably laughing their asses off at the ignorance of the majority of Americans. It looks Bush will outdue his unprecedented placement into the presidency by using technology to steal the election. Hail to the theif.