roachboy

http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/...266328,00.html

this is a good short piece outlining the extent of outsourcing in the military and the central roles played in this by brown and root and halliburton. it has contains information and numbers outlining cheney's continued relation to halliburton at present.

what do you make of this outsourcing trend in the military?


and what of the cozy relationship between the bush administration and some of the contractors who have profitted handsomely from this process?

i find both disturbing but am still thinking about exactly how and why.


disclosure: i had heard fragments on the latter for quite a while, but remained agnostic on the matter because i simply did not have time to research the matter myself. this article is illuminating--i'll probably search out the book it references as well.

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Dragonlich

I have no problem with outsourcing for the military. Their prime purpose is to fight, and they're good at that. They don't really need to be doing any reconstruction or logistics work.

I do have a problem with too close ties between politicians and the corporate world, especially when the latter get contracts by massaging their friends. That reeks of bribery.

roachboy

it seems like outsourcing what were or should be public functions is a way of avoiding or reducing political accountability.
i do not see greater efficiency.
i do see an attempt to reduce the number of military people---maybe with an eye toward cutting further on veterans benefits?

not sure--still thinking.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

wilbjammin

The problem is profit. If there is a profit incentive to have a war, then there is going to be political lobbying to have wars. Of course, now profits are at all-time highs in the military-industrial complex and it is something that we should be very worried about. Even Eisenhower saw the dangers in this; we really have done very little to prevent profiteering for war. There should be institutional barriers that prevent defense contractors having personal connections that could create profits for those who make decisions about war.

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Bobaphat

I have no problem with out-sourcing. I have a problem with non-competitive open-ended contracts being awarded. I want my government to get the most for their money and the current system invites abuse. This has been shown over and over again.

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cosmoknight

Outsourcing by the military is for one reason. Getting more boots that are in combat. They are constantly looking at jobs that the private sector can do for them. A soldier can then be used for more striking power making the military more eficient at what its primary mission is, breaking things of the enemy.

roachboy

it seems that outsourcing is being used to reduce the size of the military itself, cosmo, and is only one dimension of that reduction. rumsfeld's plan, if i remember correctly, involved at one point cutting the number of active service people across the board. maybe this desire is linked to bush's outrageous position on first use of nuclear weapons. and to the cutting of veterans benefits.

quite a pal of the military is cowboy george.

further, the idea that the private sector can or will provide infrastructure-type services better or cheaper than the state has been shown false all over the world. so maybe the only way to pull this off is to have insider, sweetheart deals between republicans?

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

KMA-628

Unions baby, Unions

When we were in Philly (yards) we had to use 'em.

Definitely not cheaper than using us but they were considerably more skilled.

The civilian outsourcing that I saw was because of the skill level needed/involved.

Some guy doing this particular thing for 20 yrs versus a punk 19 year-old kid that was more concerned about the choice of bars for that night (I am referring to me).

For the most part, I was extremely impressed with the civilian workers and the quality of their work.

Not sure how the union thing worked, whether we had to work with them, deal with the city, etc.

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wraithhibn

Halliburton is the largest oil services company out there, them getting the jobs shouldnt be a suprise. The Cheney - Halliburton connection does cause some problems, but I think it should be overshadowed by Halliburton being the best to handle some of the problems they are facing in Iraq.

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98MustGT

Did not the Clinton Admin use the same outsourcing for Bosnia?

roachboy

well philly was a very particular place on its docks for many years.
worked out pretty well for a long time.
then at teh commercial level, container ships started and transport got centralized thorugh nyc and baltimore.
and the navy yard is gone too, isnt it?

this outsourcing seems different to me than the symbosis between a navy yard in the states and the city it occupies.
extending outsourcing into combat situations seems something else again--consider for example the instance talked about in the article with brown and root in kosovo--if that kind of thing can happen routinely, then obviously the cost-reduction argument goes out the window--because the conservative faith in "competition"--already something of a farce to begin with when you think about the real world instead of the fiction of a world of little bidnesses---is short circuited by the nature of the operations these comanies are being asked to perform.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

seretogis

If the US Gov't didn't outsource to government contractors, my parents wouldn't have their already-low-paying jobs. That said, it is an essential practice to lower cost and raise efficiency of the US military.

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KMA-628

/all of the ships in Philly were mothballed while I was there. we holed up in the civilian yards in Chester. I heard a rumor that the Philly yards were coming back though.

I am keeping my side of the discussion relative to personal experience. I had nothing to do with the kinds of jobs Haliburton does/did. I may have worked along side Haliburton people, I just don't remember.

Civilian contractors were very common when I was in. The ones that I remember were locals (if we were out of country).

I spent a majority of my time during Gulf I in general quarters in a combat zone. I honestly don't remember much along the lines of civilians. The civilians seem to come later during Operation Provide Promise (what stupid names we use(d)).

Anyway,my point was that I am trying to clarify that my opnion is based on my personal experience. I don't know enough about the article/book/author to comment, I am not there.

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Before you criticize someone, you need to walk a mile in their shoes. That way, if they get angry at you.......you're a mile away.......and they're barefoot.