ARTelevision

ubertuber - one of the better posts ever here.
Thanks for your insights.
Your thoughts are well worth coming back to. They illuminate where we have been and they indicate some very productive methods of moving forward.
Good stuff!

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brianna

good points ubertuber.

i think that in addition to a willingness to compromise we need to avoid demonizing those who we disagree with. when we refuse to understand others points of view or try to paint the opposition as evil we are no longer engaging in a constructive discussion. personally i find this dehumanization of the other side rampant in modern politics (actually i see way to much of it in all circles political or not) and I find it not only distasteful but detrimental to building a strong society (here on TFP or out in the 'real' world). I would urge all of us to be more aware of our 'opponents' (for lack of a better word) human nature, no one here is the enemy.

wilbjammin

Actually, some of us might be politicians...


In any event, I think the biggest problem with this forum is that inability to determine what, in fact, the factual reality is. There are too many sources of information, and political issues are too complicated to be simplified by looking at one, or two sources of information (or 50 or 60 sources).

The greatest difficulty lies in determining what the causal relationships are and what to look for in predictions. Having gone through formal training in politics, I can say that this is a universal problem ranging from the smallest of local politics to national and international politics. I remember when I was first introduced to TFP I was excited about the opportunity to discuss politics with others, and then as I shuffled through the threads I lost the will to. There are two reasons that I choose not to contribute:

1. People, by and far, did not support their opinions with facts or relevent data that gives enough information to determine anything. Anyone can go on the internet and find someone who agrees with their point of view who is published and/or reknowned - this does not mean that the person is correct or knows all of the information! I understand that it is difficult to find data that actually says anything meaningful, but it is very important when we discuss politics.

2. My first several posts in politics were greeted primarily with non-sequitur responses and selectivism towards my comments that put everything out of context. I find that there is no value in copying and pasting my comments repeatedly to make a point. Politics should be a deliberate endeavor meaning that well-thought out responses have a lot more value than quick, snide responses. I was left feeling like the effort I was putting into making posts that said something of value were not met with the earnestness.


Let's boil this down as simply as possible. Politics is group decision-making. That's it... and yet politics is often given a bad name.

We should look at this forum as an opportunity to clarify our values, beliefs, and understandings personally. We should share our knowledge because what we know matters to us and we believe it would help others. We should be civil and polite and respect differing opinions because knowledge is socially constructed and encountering differing opinions, ideas, and values allows for each of us individually to determine what matters and why. We should research the facts behind what we're saying rather that just repeating what we've been told as if it were facts (admissions of not-knowing something for certain is welcome and something that I would personally embrace with open arms). I am not always right, and no-one else is... so be nice, and allow someone grace if they have made mistakes.

And, truthfully, using "I" statements can really diffuse problems before they start. "You say ____, I disagree with you because as I understand it _____ is true." - or - "You say ____, I understand what you're saying but I think that you might have missed this information: _____." etc. If you do not want to understand why someone thinks something differently than you do, then this is not the place for you.

If politics is group decision-making, then the first step towards gaining any value from political discussion is to realize that you are part of a group and to work within the bounds of positive group dynamics.

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Innominate.

tecoyah

I was thinking (and it hurts), With the level of intellect we have in this forum....you would think we could be somewhat self- moderating. I personally, would appreciate a friendly reminder from any of you, should I be close to crossing a line. I honestly feel most members who frequent this forum are more than capable of noticing the difference between debate, and argument. As we all pretty much participate in most threads....it would seem a natural flow to simply add the occasional "time out tecoyah", or some other nice reminder of an approach to the nasty line.
Each of us should be able to take the hint, and mellow for a few minutes, maybe post a statement such as:

*Gets beer to adjust attitude*

or some other extremely humorous jest. Just another Idea. And I know it has worked for myself on more than one occasion.

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Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

ARTelevision

Yes, one would think.

I'm sure it's not an intra-forum-based problem.

What occurs here is often simply a reflection of the state of affairs that exists in the outside world. That's why we promote and further the notion of our forum and our membership as an alternative - a better alternative.

That's the spirit that allows positive and constructive evolution here and makes for better dialog on topics that create havoc in the general population. TFP is a sort of living think tank with no agenda save for the committment that we are dedicated to maintaining a higher degree of respect for each other than is typically available in many real-life situations or on the Internet as a whole.

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tecoyah

*bump*
as a reminder

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Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

assilem

I just spent the last 30 minutes or so reading this entire thread and then reading it again.

I was attracted to the TFP because of the politics forum. When I arrived here back in April, I saw a political forum that I thought would accept and consider my views… for the most part. I found out shortly thereafter that I was dreadfully wrong. I hate to say the word but I guess I would consider myself a “moderate” (I just think the word lacks conviction). Some of my views and beliefs are pretty far to the “right” and other are pretty far to the “left”. Yet somehow, no matter how hard I tried NOT to be labeled as a “conservative”, I was being attacked for those views. So I went on a hiatus of undetermined length. After reading this thread… I see hope.

I have come to realize after reading several “left leaning” threads here on the politics board that I am not as far to the right as I had once thought and visa versa. A good example: My best friend and I have had several heated discussions about Michael Moore. He a supporter, myself a detractor. I have come to understand through these debates that Michael Moore is not so bad after all. Now don’t get me wrong, I think he is a hypocrite, but he (Michael Moore) made me realize something. It is the debate that his films generate that is important and so my friend and I found a common ground. A compromise, if you will.

I know what I believe in. I believe in liberty, freedom, personal responsibility, and an open society that encourages debate and therefore action. I have also come to appreciate other individual’s points of view and positions on issues. In the past I did nothing but disregard the side that I disagreed with and did nothing to understand it. This board and debate with my friends in the “real world” over the last few months has helped to reshape my attitude in regards to politics and social issues. I want to bring that attitude back to the politics forum and maybe produce some great ideas. Ideas without ideal. If that makes any sense. I have found that ideology makes little or no progress. And that, I believe, is the intention of this forum.

My thanks to you all. But especially to: Art, tecoyah, and for the very poignant commentary, ubertuber and wilbjammin.

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The mother of mankind, what time his pride
Had cast him out from Heaven, with all his host
Of rebel Angels

ARTelevision

Yes, thanks to all.
I do see things on a definite upturn.
There's more mutual respect here and there's more of a willingness to see the other side's point of view - even while disagreements are being represented.

This is not a small thing. No matter who is elected, I will continue to be a patriotic citizen and I will, personally, continue to trust the US government. That's my own position - it has already been discussed here.

Yes, the population seems to be more polarized than it has been in decades. However, that can be seen as an indication people are not apathetic and are actually engaging the issues. Ultimately, things that become law will need bipartisan support.

So what I'm doing now is reading the news with a more constructive approach and checking out the Democratic Convention, looking for points of agreement and good will.

That's my ongoing contribution to this spirit of good citizens working together rather than being torn assunder into the future. You may choose not to go so far down the path to conciliation, however, the first few steps beyond where we were are essential.

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