OK to go into Nigeria but not the Sudan - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

mrbuck12000 · 07-13-2004, 02:30 PM

Can you guys help me out here. As some you know i seem to have a hang up with this issue.... In the other thread, that has been locked, i posted a question as to why we will not go into to help out the people of the sudan, where genocide and rape seem to be the norm, but we will invade iraq and supposedly liberate them. Most of you said that its because we cannot police the world and we must pick and choose our fights. I was alluding to the fact that we just go in help out where it benefits us, THE USA!!

Well how do you explain this:

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/nation...Oil%20Security

Monday, July 12, 2004 · Last updated 12:07 p.m. PT

U.S. general proposes aid in Nigeria

By GILBERT DA COSTA
ASSOCIATED PRESS WRITER

ABUJA, Nigeria -- A top U.S. military commander proposed American help Monday in monitoring West Africa's Gulf of Guinea to secure an unstable region that holds as much as 10 percent of the world's oil reserves.

Gen. Charles Wald, the deputy commander of the U.S. military's European Command for Europe and Africa, said he raised the offer in talks with West African and national officials in Nigeria - Africa's biggest oil producer and most populous nation.

Britain's Jane's Weekly defense publication has said the United States was readying a proposed African Coastal Security Program to block pirates, smugglers and other criminals in the Gulf of Guinea and around Africa.

The issue is being studied in preliminary feasibility surveys, European Command officials have told The Associated Press.

In Abuja, Nigeria's capital, Wald said he and Nigerian officials, including Deputy Defense Minister Roland Oritsejafor, discussed finding "a way that we can cooperate together in monitoring the waters off the Gulf of Guinea."

Wald called it a "hugely important" issue to West African nations bordering the gulf.

"It is up to the political leaders, if they decide it is in their common interests to protect the area, we will support that," he said.

He gave no immediate details of what assistance might be involved. Jane's has suggested U.S. help could include naval vessels, communications equipment and training, as well as a counterterrorism base in the Gulf of Guinea.

Earlier this year, the United States funded a feasibility study on the creation of a possible deep-water port at the island nation of Sao Tome and Principe, off Nigeria.

Nigeria, Africa's largest oil exporter, is the world's No. 7 oil exporter and the fifth-biggest source of U.S. oil imports.

Surrounding nations in the Gulf of Guinea likewise are increasing production amid a West Africa oil boom, as the United States, Europe and Asia look for alternatives to oil from the politically volatile Middle East.

Asked whether the United States was willing to help stem attacks against Nigeria's oil industry, Wald said, "Wherever there's evil, we want to get there and fight it."

Nigeria's oil industry has been plagued by armed attacks from militants - many seeking a share of the country's oil wealth - that at times in the past year shut down 10 percent to 40 percent of Nigeria's daily production of 2.5 million barrels of crude a day.

"Where you have wealth, if you don't protect it, you are vulnerable to terrorists and illegal arms dealers and so you are not safe," he said.

The West and Central African regions produce 15 percent of U.S. oil imports, a figure that could rise to 20 percent in the next decade "if it remains attractive to investment," according to a U.S. Congress-commissioned report last week by the Washington-based Center for Strategic and International Studies.

The study urged Washington to increase intelligence and counter-terror efforts in Africa. It also should increase funding for training of African armies from $10 million to $100 million, with an equal amount devoted to African peace initiatives, the analysts said.

Wald said the United States was interested in expanding training and "potentially" helping equip regional peacekeepers to stem conflicts themselves, Wald said.

Three African nations are singled out by the Congress-commissioned report as facing the most dire terrorism threats in Africa - Sudan, Somalia and Nigeria - nations with large Muslim populations with which the authors recommended "expanding engagement."

Now why do we help out, maybe OIL seems to be on our minds. Why do we get to say who lives or dies based on the oil they have???

mrb

highthief · 07-13-2004, 02:34 PM

As someone who was opposed to the Iraq war, this is to me just a preliminary report. No real plans or executive approval is imminent or even likely, IMO.

seretogis · 07-13-2004, 05:47 PM

I'm curious, mrbuck, how much have you contributed from your own pocket to help in the Sudan? I ask because it seems like many people have no problem sending millions of tax dollars to aid abroad but would never do so themselves, with their own money.

To put my view in perspective, I don't think we should be giving aid to Nigeria or the Sudan.

wonderwench · 07-13-2004, 05:51 PM

Considering the interdependent nature of national and economic security, ensuring that our sources of oil are not seized by pirates is prudent. It may sound callous; but the economic reality is that the oil does make it our business whereas a purely civil war is an internal matter. Given that we have limited resources, our government is responsible for deploying them in the manners which best serve our national interests.

mrbuck12000 · 07-13-2004, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by wonderwench
Considering the interdependent nature of national and economic security, ensuring that our sources of oil are not seized by pirates is prudent. It may sound callous; but the economic reality is that the oil does make it our business whereas a purely civil war is an internal matter. Given that we have limited resources, our government is responsible for deploying them in the manners which best serve our national interests.

so you admit....its the oil? and we are in Iraq becuz?

Limited resources...do you know how much oil is in texas and do you know how much money should be spent on alternative energies in order to get this country off of oil and into a cleaner environment?

mrb

ObieX · 07-13-2004, 07:17 PM

What worries me about that article is that we are thinking once again of sending money to armies of other countries. Usually when this happens we end up fighting the same folks we equiped about a decade or so later. I think it would be better to send our own troops instead of aiding the troops of other countries that could be killing our troops a few years from now. In regions as unstable as these you never know who will behind those weapons a week after you send them.

As for alternate sources of energy? Well the problem with most of those alternate sources is that as soon as they are made available the patents for them are bought up by the oil companies before they can do any damage to their profit. Intellectual property is not always a good thing. In fact, it's usually only a good thing for one person, and the rest of us get screwed.

hammer4all · 07-13-2004, 11:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mrbuck12000
Nigeria's oil industry has been plagued by armed attacks from militants - many seeking a share of the country's oil wealth - that at times in the past year shut down 10 percent to 40 percent of Nigeria's daily production of 2.5 million barrels of crude a day.

Somehow I can't help but think that these "militants" are actually the Nigerian locals who are sick and tired of the oil dictatorship.

See the documentary: Drilling and Killing: Chevron and Nigeria's Oil Dictatorship

Mojo_PeiPei · 07-13-2004, 11:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mrbuck12000
so you admit....its the oil? and we are in Iraq becuz?

Limited resources...do you know how much oil is in texas and do you know how much money should be spent on alternative energies in order to get this country off of oil and into a cleaner environment?

mrb

Mr B. Let it go.

Why is it on us to go to the Sudan? There has been conflict for how many years here? 20+ years? I have heard figures that push the toll of 2+ million deaths here. I remember in the mid 90's my own mother talking about the Sudan about Salvary and Christian persuction by the Karatorum gov. which funds and aids the Arab militia's perpetuating this conflict.Not only is it a largely religious conflict, it is an ethnic conflict.

Furthermore one thing I have learned about the UN as a whole it does not infringe on sovereignty... rightfully so. This is an internal conflict, even though it is most abhorrent.

Iraq is about oil... do yourself a favor and read the Wolfowitz doctrine, then come back to this thread and tell me how Iraq relates to oil. You'll learn something, Iraq is bigger then Bush, and it's beyond Clinton (who btw I'm not trying to put this on).

Tell me one reason, why is it on us?

Edit 1: Iraq violated 17 U.N. resolutions over the course of 12 years. : Violated Cease Fire accords with U.S. between 92'-02': Responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of state sanctioned killings: responsible for the genocide of Shiite's in the southern marsh lands and Kurds in the north by the thousands: Several acts of war vs. Kuwait, Bahrain, Israel, UAE: responsible for the deaths of nearly 1 million (give or take) Iran- Iraq War 82-88': Saddam largely responsible for the death of 1+million (conservative number) fellow Iraqi's in light of sanctions.

cosmoknight · 07-14-2004, 05:05 AM

From just reading the article it looks like we are thinking about sea interdiction duty from our navy. This combined with beefing up their internal forces with training etc. This will help stabilize the situation with minimum boots on the ground from us. Sudan is in a civil war and is totally different. No one wants a repeat of Somalia\Rwanda as intervention in a civil war rarely helps anyone.

cthulu23 · 07-14-2004, 06:04 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by cosmoknight
No one wants a repeat of Somalia\Rwanda as intervention in a civil war rarely helps anyone.

I fail to see how Rwanda fits into this picture. If anything, Rwanda is an example of the horror that can occur when the UN doesn't intervene. Prior to the massacre there, UN troops had discovered caches of guns and machetes and knew that a crisis was imminent. The troops, under the command of Lt. Gen. Romeo Dallaire, began preparing to sieze the weapons and defuse the situation, but were prevented from doing so by a gun shy UN still smarting from Somalia.

See the documentary "The Last Just Man" for a heartbreaking look at what happened in Rwanda and how it could have been prevented.

roachboy · 07-14-2004, 06:38 AM

a good book on this question being debated below the surface here--michael klare, resource wars---interesting, historically situated analysis of the role energy-related materials have been playing in the reorientations of american foreign policy since more or less carter.

maybe we should start a book club....a reading room or something----where people arrange to read the same book on a given topic, and then could actually discuss/ fight about a detailed analysis of a complex situation.

the question of the sudan, for example, is quite complicated and has an extensive backstory---i know some things about it, but not enough to toddle into a full-blown interpretation of what is happening now--but i would be interested in checking out more...

just a thought.

klare's analysis--for example---is comprehensive and well-argued, but it is not at all obvious that you can simply use it as a guide for understanding everything about american actions in africa or elsewhere.....

07-13-2004, 02:30 PM	#1 (permalink)
mrbuck12000 Psycho Location: wisCONsin	OK to go into Nigeria but not the Sudan Can you guys help me out here. As some you know i seem to have a hang up with this issue.... In the other thread, that has been locked, i posted a question as to why we will not go into to help out the people of the sudan, where genocide and rape seem to be the norm, but we will invade iraq and supposedly liberate them. Most of you said that its because we cannot police the world and we must pick and choose our fights. I was alluding to the fact that we just go in help out where it benefits us, THE USA!! Well how do you explain this: http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/nation...Oil%20Security Monday, July 12, 2004 · Last updated 12:07 p.m. PT U.S. general proposes aid in Nigeria By GILBERT DA COSTA ASSOCIATED PRESS WRITER ABUJA, Nigeria -- A top U.S. military commander proposed American help Monday in monitoring West Africa's Gulf of Guinea to secure an unstable region that holds as much as 10 percent of the world's oil reserves. Gen. Charles Wald, the deputy commander of the U.S. military's European Command for Europe and Africa, said he raised the offer in talks with West African and national officials in Nigeria - Africa's biggest oil producer and most populous nation. Britain's Jane's Weekly defense publication has said the United States was readying a proposed African Coastal Security Program to block pirates, smugglers and other criminals in the Gulf of Guinea and around Africa. The issue is being studied in preliminary feasibility surveys, European Command officials have told The Associated Press. In Abuja, Nigeria's capital, Wald said he and Nigerian officials, including Deputy Defense Minister Roland Oritsejafor, discussed finding "a way that we can cooperate together in monitoring the waters off the Gulf of Guinea." Wald called it a "hugely important" issue to West African nations bordering the gulf. "It is up to the political leaders, if they decide it is in their common interests to protect the area, we will support that," he said. He gave no immediate details of what assistance might be involved. Jane's has suggested U.S. help could include naval vessels, communications equipment and training, as well as a counterterrorism base in the Gulf of Guinea. Earlier this year, the United States funded a feasibility study on the creation of a possible deep-water port at the island nation of Sao Tome and Principe, off Nigeria. Nigeria, Africa's largest oil exporter, is the world's No. 7 oil exporter and the fifth-biggest source of U.S. oil imports. Surrounding nations in the Gulf of Guinea likewise are increasing production amid a West Africa oil boom, as the United States, Europe and Asia look for alternatives to oil from the politically volatile Middle East. Asked whether the United States was willing to help stem attacks against Nigeria's oil industry, Wald said, "Wherever there's evil, we want to get there and fight it." Nigeria's oil industry has been plagued by armed attacks from militants - many seeking a share of the country's oil wealth - that at times in the past year shut down 10 percent to 40 percent of Nigeria's daily production of 2.5 million barrels of crude a day. "Where you have wealth, if you don't protect it, you are vulnerable to terrorists and illegal arms dealers and so you are not safe," he said. The West and Central African regions produce 15 percent of U.S. oil imports, a figure that could rise to 20 percent in the next decade "if it remains attractive to investment," according to a U.S. Congress-commissioned report last week by the Washington-based Center for Strategic and International Studies. The study urged Washington to increase intelligence and counter-terror efforts in Africa. It also should increase funding for training of African armies from $10 million to $100 million, with an equal amount devoted to African peace initiatives, the analysts said. Wald said the United States was interested in expanding training and "potentially" helping equip regional peacekeepers to stem conflicts themselves, Wald said. Three African nations are singled out by the Congress-commissioned report as facing the most dire terrorism threats in Africa - Sudan, Somalia and Nigeria - nations with large Muslim populations with which the authors recommended "expanding engagement." Now why do we help out, maybe OIL seems to be on our minds. Why do we get to say who lives or dies based on the oil they have??? mrb __________________ "There's an old saying in Tennessee -- I know it's in Texas, it's probably in Tennessee --that says, fool me once, shame on ... shame on you. Fool me ... You can't get fooled again." - G.W. Bush quoted by the Baltimore Sun - Oct 6, 2002

07-13-2004, 02:34 PM	#2 (permalink)
highthief Junkie Location: Ontario, Canada	As someone who was opposed to the Iraq war, this is to me just a preliminary report. No real plans or executive approval is imminent or even likely, IMO. __________________ Si vis pacem parabellum.

07-13-2004, 05:47 PM	#3 (permalink)
seretogis Huggles, sir? Location: Seattle	I'm curious, mrbuck, how much have you contributed from your own pocket to help in the Sudan? I ask because it seems like many people have no problem sending millions of tax dollars to aid abroad but would never do so themselves, with their own money. To put my view in perspective, I don't think we should be giving aid to Nigeria or the Sudan. __________________ seretogis - sieg heil perfect little dream the kind that hurts the most, forgot how it feels well almost no one to blame always the same, open my eyes wake up in flames

07-13-2004, 07:17 PM	#6 (permalink)
ObieX Pickles Location: Shirt and Pants (NJ)	What worries me about that article is that we are thinking once again of sending money to armies of other countries. Usually when this happens we end up fighting the same folks we equiped about a decade or so later. I think it would be better to send our own troops instead of aiding the troops of other countries that could be killing our troops a few years from now. In regions as unstable as these you never know who will behind those weapons a week after you send them. As for alternate sources of energy? Well the problem with most of those alternate sources is that as soon as they are made available the patents for them are bought up by the oil companies before they can do any damage to their profit. Intellectual property is not always a good thing. In fact, it's usually only a good thing for one person, and the rest of us get screwed. __________________ We Must Dissent.

07-14-2004, 06:38 AM	#11 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	a good book on this question being debated below the surface here--michael klare, resource wars---interesting, historically situated analysis of the role energy-related materials have been playing in the reorientations of american foreign policy since more or less carter. maybe we should start a book club....a reading room or something----where people arrange to read the same book on a given topic, and then could actually discuss/ fight about a detailed analysis of a complex situation. the question of the sudan, for example, is quite complicated and has an extensive backstory---i know some things about it, but not enough to toddle into a full-blown interpretation of what is happening now--but i would be interested in checking out more... just a thought. klare's analysis--for example---is comprehensive and well-argued, but it is not at all obvious that you can simply use it as a guide for understanding everything about american actions in africa or elsewhere..... __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

07-13-2004, 05:51 PM	#4 (permalink)
wonderwench Banned	Considering the interdependent nature of national and economic security, ensuring that our sources of oil are not seized by pirates is prudent. It may sound callous; but the economic reality is that the oil does make it our business whereas a purely civil war is an internal matter. Given that we have limited resources, our government is responsible for deploying them in the manners which best serve our national interests.

07-14-2004, 05:05 AM	#9 (permalink)
cosmoknight Tilted	From just reading the article it looks like we are thinking about sea interdiction duty from our navy. This combined with beefing up their internal forces with training etc. This will help stabilize the situation with minimum boots on the ground from us. Sudan is in a civil war and is totally different. No one wants a repeat of Somalia\Rwanda as intervention in a civil war rarely helps anyone.