Nizzle

Bush's extremely negative ads that use the same editing techniques that Michael Moore himself employs does not make it so. Have you listened to what Kerry has to say? I've listened to both Bush and Kerry. Bush: America is safer! Kerry is bad! Kerry: Long list of things he wants to do that are positive.

Yes, the contingency that supports Kerry are angry. There are a lot of reasons for this, but do not directly reflect Kerry's campaign strategy. The Republican noise machine is having a field day with the anger that is brewing in America over Bush's failed policies, manipulation of public opinion, and exploitation of the horrendous attack on our soil 3 years ago. Let's just see what November brings, shall we?

Let's see. Reagan cuts taxes (for the wealthy), deficit booms, economy falters. Clinton raises taxes back to where they were (for the wealthy) with a modest increase (4.3 cents to the gallon) on gas, economy booms, budget balances, surplus for the looming social security disaster begins to accumulate. Conclusive? Not at all. I tend to agree that these things don't have much of an effect on the overall economy. But with Bush selling the line that tax cuts (to the wealthy) will make our economy prosper, it is only prudent to examine history and see how that claim stands up. It doesn't stand up very well, at least superficially.



Do you actually believe this? I mean, really?

Extra money in the hands of the rich tends to be "invested" in offshore tax shelters to make them more rich. It is either naive or dishonest to suggest that any surplus income -- to someone who already has a vast amount of surplus income -- will automatically be spent on improving society and the lives of those who actually work to sustain it.

Corporations lobby to remove any necessity to provide anything back to the workforce that sustains them, including worker safety, basic benefits that everyone should enjoy if they are contributing to society (health, dental, pension), and much needed regulation to protect the populace from pollution and dangerous goods.

Corporations are not interested in spending their profits on anything that benefits the workforce or society. Corporations exist to make as much money as they can, and keep it. It does not take a genius or a "liberal" to understand this, just one who is willing to see past the shallow Conservative pro-business rhetoric that is supplied directly to the talking-points pundits by the corporate lobbyists.

Add to this that a lot of the "new jobs" being added are either overseas or in the service industry, the argument just falls flat. I am a skilled work and gainfully employed, but I recognize that the society I want to live in isn't just me and my peers. It is everyone. That is what society is. Continually degrading the quality of life of those who are less fortunate and then trying to reign in the crime that results with a growing police force is not a recipe for a sustainable society.

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Nizzle

Scipio

This is an interesting point I'd like to touch on.

Conservatives alternate between talking about how great business is, and talking about how great the free market is, and how well it works even if people aren't all that noble about it. The idea is that a great and equitable system arises out of the selfish profit motive.

Perhaps some or even many conservatives hold only one of the two ideas, but both are present in the movement, and they are contradictory.

I suppose the difference with Kerry is that he doesn't take corporations at their word when they say they're being altruistic or benevolent. The Democratic party's attitude towards business is a bit more skeptical than that of the Republicans.

I think that's realistic, and I think it's a good thing.

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Superbelt

Yeah I could have said it nicely. I could have said that it's disgusting to say poor people, in general are vice afflicted money wasters. But sarcasm can be so effective, and called for, especially in the face of such ignorance.
That was just a pathetic statement, and Hwed, you need to go say hello to America. Most americans are classified as the lower class (poor) Rich and Middle Class are the minority. Leave your gated community and go meet someone.

Ratzil

Some quick research on google should supply you with an AQ letter that states precisely that.

Of course they dont support Bush because hes such a nice dude, but because hes making life ease for AQ and i dont mean how the Bush-family supported OBL before and shortly after 09-11.

But the way he (GWB) acts in the middle east provides justification for OLBs/AQs et all. actions among his/their peers, namely a large quantity of the muslim world.

roachboy

i had to walk away from this thread last night after reading hwed's post.

i still am not sure that i can say much about it without rolling into an attack.

so i'll operate here as a general echo of superbelts post, above, and leave it at that for now.

i would like to pose the question of motivation for such an obvious troll however:

was that post written as a chance to demonstrate your political purity--questions of coherence obviously aside--by creating a situation in which shutting down a thread functions as vindication for your position?

or do you imagine that this activity works to somehow or other eliminate the possibility of kerry defeating bush in the next election? how?

the explanation for this is obviously psychological, not political......

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spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

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Journeyman

Meier_Link

While I agree that Bush's healthcare plans are way off, there are reasons that we pay more for prescription drugs than other countries.

While there is no doubt in my mind that drug companies make more than they should, that is what encourages them to develop new drugs and treatments. We are the largest customer so we foot the bill. The way they see it, if they sell to Canada for a smaller profit, it is such a small percent of their total sales that it doesn't affect them much at all. If we bust down on the drug prices and such, it may be we who pay the consequences.

/not pro-bush. i'd be pro saddam before i was pro bush!

smooth

Usually the largest (volume) customer gets the better price.

That aside, the reason other countries get cheaper meds is because they have price controls. The point some of us should be considering is that the companies still do (profitable) business with these places even with the caps in place.

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"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann

"You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman

Journeyman

http://washingtontimes.com/upi-break...1752-4421r.htm

That's Florida. In Californian news...
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/...?oneclick=true
But that's only when they're fucking the government's (read: Taxpayers) dollars. Privately insured Californian's get some of this.

http://www.reuters.co.uk/newsArticle...1&section=news
In terms of the Kerry/Bush dilemna, it seems that the Free market needs a couple more strings attached. Bush isn't likely to introduce/sign any legislation restricting "free trade."

VTBrian

Even though a nuclear power plant in his state was repeatedly sited as being the most insecure reactor in the country, and knowing this he didn't do anything about it? Just 'cause someone is a verteran doesn't mean they know how to protect a nation (no dissrispect intended to veterans). In fact I don't think Keri has the slightest clue what he's doing (See a few lines up).

Quote:

2. He will pursue a smarter tax cut strategy. One of the strongest economies ever seen in this country emerged after Clinton raised taxes on high levels of income and gave tax cuts to the families that make up the middle and working class. The last few years have shown two things: tax cuts for the wealthy only help out people who don't need help, and those wealthy people don't pass the benefits along.

Yeah, we also saw one of the strongest economies in history with Regan's trickle down stuff. In fact the last time I checked the economy begain to colapse in 2000, you'll have to check for me but I don't think Bush had been sworn in yet, and what about the economy now? Low intrest rates; the market is coming back; hell its even starting to creat jobs. Who do you give credit for that? Clinton?

Quote:

http://taxes.yahoo.com/rates.html Surely a marginal rate of 37% (instead of 35%) on income earned over $311,000 a year isn't going to put any millionaires in the poor house, or remove the incentive to work harder and make more money. 3. Kerry will not just set standards for education and do nothing to make achievement happen; he'll make public education a priority, and make the system better for children.

Yeah right, that sounds real nice in campaign speaches, but every president claims it as a priority, but just like it always has it'll go strait to the backburner when and if he gets in.

Quote:

4. He'll work to make health care available to more Americans. This is good for business, as it frees them from the burden of insuring their employees. It's repugnant that drug company interests have convinced our elected officials that it's ok for them to charge greatly higher prices to people in the US than they do to people in other countries. It's repugnant that they've blocked to government from using its purchasing power to get lower prices for medicines, effectively wasting taxpayer money.

Sounds like socialism to me. Didn't we have this big cold war with some country called the USSR for 5 some odd decades because they were socialists? Basicly we just have different ideas on the role of Federal government on this one. I don't think the federal governemnet should hold ppls hands or give out charity. That kind of thing is the job of well charity.

Quote:

5. Kerry won't cause more abortions to happen, or take people's guns away, or bring gay pride parades to every town in America. He won't allow America to be attacked, or destroy private enterprise.

You are right he probably won't do any of those things. However, I think his states power plant speaks for itself as to weather or not he will allow us to be attacked. Fact is we will get attacked there are to many terrorists to stop them all. Its the fire cruse missles into empty huts in the middle of the dessert kind of response alla Clinton that worries me.

Quote:

Bush? Who needs him?

Me

Sparhawk

Hmmmm.... Who's responsible for security in a state, the junior Senator from the state, or the Governor? Tough one....

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"In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work. It's incredibly hard. It's - and it's hard work. I understand how hard it is. I get the casualty reports every day. I see on the TV screens how hard it is. But it's necessary work. We're making progress. It is hard work."

VTBrian

The senator for sure. Just kidding, sorry about that one wasn't thinking I guess.

sob

Yes, but terrorist attacks got seriously underway way back in 1979.

I can provide a list of the ones (including the first WTC attack) that occurred during Clinton's terms.

So I submit that you're mistaken if you posit that Bush's actions have made any difference.

The radical Muslims swore to kill all of us infidels long before he was in office.

If I understand you correctly, anti-Kerry comments don't belong here?

sob

Not at all. I'd be perfectly happy if you just wouldn't vote for those who want to raise the taxes on what I've worked for.


Although I don't agree with the above, I would concede that a) and e) can be logically argued. I would enjoy a discussion on the other three, but some people seem to think doing so is "hijacking the thread."

sob

I like your style, if not all of your substance. You present logical arguments.


Sigh.. I'll bite.



I don't think anyone cares if homosexual couples have the same rights of inheritance, joint property ownership, etc. as everyone else. It's just offensive to Christians that the meaning of marriage is being hijacked.


And every other group sure seems to get what they want by being "offended."




All well and good, but good works are not the province of our government, at least as envisioned by the founding fathers. If you disagree, then you have no basis for disagreeing with the war in Iraq. It's just another case of taking one group's money to do good for someone else.

I'll leave the Ashcroft arguments alone. That discussion would be too long.



So the AME churches didn't do anything for Clinton and the Dems?



It beats getting instructions from drug-addict actors and Eleanor Roosevelt.





I differ with your contention that only fundamentalist Christians think a human fetus is human.




Another long discussion. I have no problem with a woman choosing what she does with her own body. It's what she does with the fetus's body that I object to. You honestly have no problem with a woman arranging to have an 8-month-old fetus's brains sucked out of its skull?




I agree with you here. It's not hard to change the channel.



Hang him! I can see why you hate him so much, if he's going to commit such a grave offense. Maybe he should have just gotten a blow job in the oval office.



I'm doing neither. As long as he doesn't dictate religion to the rest of us, I have no problem with it. By the way, he's not nearly as forceful about his religion as the framers of the Constitution.

sob

It's very simple all right, but it's been clearly documented that the movie is highly misrepresentative and misleading.

If Bush is so bad, why was it necessary for Michael Moore to lie?

sob

Where were you when Clinton was bombing pharmaceutical plants to avoid being impeached?

sob

Talk to a few Vietnam POWs who saw their fellow prisoners get beaten to death because of John Kerry's lies.

Then tell me about his integrity.

sob

"Superficially" is the operative word here. The 80's under Reagan were boom times. Clinton liked to take the credit for the 90's economy, and I marveled at his consistency. He took credit for a recovery that started before he was president (although it really took off after the '94 Republican landslide), and blamed Bush for the recession that began before Bush was president.

News flash: I heard John Edwards tonight. He's going to end poverty all by himself!

sob

I am unaware of a terrorist attack in America since Bush took action. Can you say the same for any three-year portion of Clinton's term?

You're going to have to provide me with evidence of AQ's support for Bush. I can't find it.

sob

Yes. The reason is trial lawyers.

BTW, what is it that Edwards did in private life? That made him a millionaire?

sob

Well-researched and well-spoken. I despise the way drug and insurance companies buy off ALL politicians.

Kadath

Um...wow. An even 10 posts in a row. If the TB were still locked based on participation I'd say this was post-whoring -- instead I'm just confused. Some of the opinions expressed herein are the finest in right-wing one-liners. You are an embarassment to your fellow conservatives on this board, those who actually try to rationally discuss issues instead of spouting zingers culled from hours of Rush Limbaugh, Ann Coulter, and other Republican attack dogs. Get your attitude right or get out.

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it's quiet in here

sailor

OK, sob, first off, post whoring will get you no love or respect around here. Put it all together.

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Provide something to back that up. Personally I think you are in NO position to question someone's integrity on the field of battle. I dont seem to hear that you were over there...

You, sir, summed it up pretty well. Being conservative is fine. Its your choice. Being intolerant and unwilling to discuss your beliefs isnt.

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--Plato

Superbelt

sob, why do you hate children with cerebral palsey?

Cause cases where doctors and nurses botched deliveries that resulted in children developing that and other brain damage ailments are what Edwards specialized in.

And little girls who get their bowels sucked out by unsecured swimming pool drains. Why do you hate them?

cthulu23

Sure they've made a difference....they've increased the global animosity towards America. Bush has been great at alienating our allies and crystlazing his enemies. Must be part of the "Bush doctrine."


There is no hard and fast rule about what content is or isn't appropriate per thread, but I think that we can all practice a little restraint to avoid threadjacking. Posting is fine...posting ten comments in a row filled with unsubstantiated Repub talking points is probably not.

mml

I am a long-time Kerry supporter and I have never really cared for President Bush, so the issue is easy for me. Why do I support Kerry? I believe he is a strong, ethical leader who studies issues and makes informed decisions. He has strong convictions about environmental and energy policies, realizing that protecting our environment and working to reduce our dependence on fossil fuels is good for America, our economy as well as the pursuit of happiness. He understands that the lack of affordable health care in this country is a long-term drain on our economy and is something that we, as the wealthiest nation in the world, should be able to provide. He also will allow the federal government to negotiate with Drug Companies to get lower prices on prescription drugs and will allow for government funding for embryotic stem-cell research. Kerry understands that we live in a global economy and that our relationships with the international community, is vitally important to our personal and economic security. The Senator believes that the current tax structure is not going to create long- term prosperity for the lower and middle classes. Finally, I believe he will be a strong Commander-in-Chief. Regardless of the propaganda about his cutting defense programs, his record on supporting a strong military and smart foreign policy is long and well documented (just ask John McCain: “No, I do not believe that he is, quote, weak on defense. He's responsible for his voting record, as we are all responsible for our records, and he'll have to explain it. But, no, I do not believe that he is necessarily weak on defense.” and see this site: http://slate.msn.com/id/2096127/ ).

I will once again encourage those who are unsure about Senator Kerry to do your due diligence and study his record. I think you will find it to be much different than the “Flip-Flopping Ultra-Liberal” the Bush Campaign has painted him to be.

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urbski

I'm voting for Kerry/Edwards because they represent an America that needs to lead the world through peace and virtue. Bush represents the elite class, he doesn't give a shit about the inner-city or people of color. Bush also has a problem with gays, how anti-community. We need to work with each other and accept our differences. That will help build strong families and communities. Exclusion of people is not the answer. Much love and peace out...

seretogis

Glad to hear you're going to vote, sad to hear that you are going to base your decision on a bunch of false assumptions and hastily-drawn conclusions. Bush is not an evil or hateful man, regardless of the spin on everything he does. I'm not voting for him (or Kerry) for many reasons, none of whcih have to do with how he makes a polling sample feel.

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seretogis - sieg heil
perfect little dream the kind that hurts the most, forgot how it feels well almost
no one to blame always the same, open my eyes wake up in flames

Sparhawk

Where does it say you have to be evil or hateful to not give a shit about the inner city, or blacks, or gays? The fellow has a point, in that outside of his narrow band of neoconservatives and fundamentalist christians, Bush's "care-o-meter" is right about the size of that violin in Reservoir Dogs.

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"In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work. It's incredibly hard. It's - and it's hard work. I understand how hard it is. I get the casualty reports every day. I see on the TV screens how hard it is. But it's necessary work. We're making progress. It is hard work."

Flyguy

I'm voting for Kerry/Edwards because America needs a change. We need to focus on building the country again not waste time trying to place constitution amendments telling people how they should live their lives just because the people in power morally disagree with it.

They actually realize that the environment needs protecting and that we can't run on oil until the end of time.

They realize that trickle down economics doesn't work because putting more money in the hands of the rich doesn’t benefit anyone else but themselves. Who actually believes that CEO's will invest all profits to benefit employees? I've never worked at that company.

They realize that education is important and if everybody had the chance to get one then America will be better off.

They realize that health care needs to be available for everybody not just the fortunate.

They realize that America can't "Go it alone." We live in an interdependent world where we all need each other. Cowboy policies aren't the answer.

Rdr4evr

That is the funniest thing I have heard all week! Thanks for the laugh.

cthulu23

This is not helping our side. Let's try to cut down on our use of the 'E' word....it makes us look stupid.

Rdr4evr

What are u talking about?

cthulu23

Flippant use of the term evil. Sorry, but I'm feeling a little sensitive after all the cries of "Democratic hate speech!!!!!"

KMA-628

Thanks cthulu23

I haven't read this thread in a few days and I just read the last 6 posts, that comment really stood out.

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Before you criticize someone, you need to walk a mile in their shoes. That way, if they get angry at you.......you're a mile away.......and they're barefoot.

cthulu23

I appreciate it, KMA-628. Others will use any self-policing as an excuse to pounce.