Iraq and Oil - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

SiphonX · 06-05-2004, 08:53 PM

i was just curious if the US is extracting oil from iraq, 'cos everybody says thats why we went to war...which is fine with me, as long as we're actually getting some friggin oil, but then again why are gas prices so damn high now??

boatin · 06-05-2004, 09:12 PM

If you buy the war for oil logic, the point is not to get gas for americans. The point is to make the oil companies (and their owners) richer. My understanding is that as the gas prices go up, the amount of profit the refining companies make goes up as well.

If true, the theory goes, Bush cronies get richer - thereby justifying the war.

Just for the record, I don't believe that was the reason for the war. Just a side effect that works well for the bush cronies. I would be interested to see numbers of oil companies profits over the last 10 years or so. If someone can demonstrate that profits are steady, I would be happy to change my opinion...

ObieX · 06-05-2004, 09:13 PM

Oil prices are so high because the people selling it want more money. Its that simple. Prices wont be going down any time soon, they'll only be goig up. It'll continue till we get some leaders who will actually do something about it.

hammer4all · 06-05-2004, 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by boatin
If you buy the war for oil logic, the point is not to get gas for americans. The point is to make the oil companies (and their owners) richer. My understanding is that as the gas prices go up, the amount of profit the refining companies make goes up as well.

If true, the theory goes, Bush cronies get richer - thereby justifying the war.

No, that is not the war for oil logic. The war was about control of oil.

Chomsky says it best:

Quote:

- What are the goals of the American existence in the Iraq and Middle East?

The primary goal, uncontroversially, is to control the immense energy reserves of the Persian Gulf region, Iraq included. That has been a prime concern of the Western industrial powers since the time when Iraq was created by the British, to ensure that Iraqi oil reserves would be in British hands and the newly-created state of Iraq would be barred from free access to the Gulf. At that time the US was not a leading actor in world affairs. But after World War II, the US was by far the dominant world power, and control of Middle East energy reserves became a leading foreign policy goal, as it had been for its predecessors. In the 1940s, US planners recognized that (in their words) Gulf energy resources are "a stupendous source of strategic power" and "one of the greatest material prizes in world history." Naturally, they intended to control it -- though for many years they did not make much use of it themselves, and in the future, according to US intelligence, the US itself will rely on more stable Atlantic Basin resources (West Africa and the Western hemisphere).

Nevertheless, it remains a very high priority to control the Gulf resources, which are expected to provide 2/3 of world energy needs for some time to come. Quite apart from yielding "profits beyond the dreams of avarice," as one leading history of the oil industry puts the matter, the region still remains "a stupendous source of strategic power," a lever of world control. Control over Gulf energy reserves provides "veto power" over the actions of rivals, as the leading planner George Kennan pointed out half a century ago.

Europe and Asia understand very well, and have long been seeking independent access to energy resources. Much of the jockeying for power in the Middle East and Central Asia has to do with these issues. The populations of the region are regarded as incidental, as long as they are passive and obedient. Few know this as well as the Kurds, at least if they remember their own history.

US planners surely intend to establish a client state in Iraq, with democratic forms if that is possible, if only for propaganda purposes. But Iraq is to be what the British, when they ran the region, called an "Arab facade," with British power in the background if the country seeks too much independence. That is a familiar part of the history of the region for the past century.

It is also the way the US has run it's own domains in the Western hemisphere for a century. There is no indication whatsoever of any miraculous change. The US occupying forces have imposed on Iraq an economic program that no sovereign country would ever accept: it virtually guarantees that the Iraqi economy will be taken over by Western (mostly US) multinational corporations and banks. It is a policy that has been disastrous for the countries on which it has been imposed; in fact, such policies are a prime reason for the current sharp difference between today's wealthy countries and their former colonies.

There is, of course, always a domestic sector that enriches itself by collaborating in running the "facade." So far, the oil industry has been excluded from foreign takeover, because that would be too blatant. But it is likely to follow, when attention turns elsewhere. Furthermore, Washington has already announced that it intends to impose a "status of forces agreement" that will grant the US the right to maintain military forces in Iraq and, crucially, military bases, the first stable US military bases right at the heart of the world's major energy reserves.

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarti...36&ItemID=4780

phredgreen · 06-05-2004, 09:51 PM

blah blah blah blah semantics semantics semantics semantics.

the question being asked is: IS THERE CURRENTLY OIL PRODUCTION IN IRAQ? IF SO, THEN WHO IS FINANCING ITS EXTRACTION AND WHO IS PROFITING FROM THAT OPERATION?

a few answers, but nothing recent or comprehensive can be found here: http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/iraq.html#oil

a more recent (february 2004) article has this information:

Quote:

article can be found here: http://www.cnn.com/2004/BUSINESS/02/29/iraq.oiloutput
Iraq oil output back to old level

BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) --Iraq's oil production has reached 2.53 million barrels per day, the highest output since the war began last March, a senior Coalition Provisional Authority (CPA) official says.

Between 1.7 million and 1.8 million barrels per day are ready for export, more than the targets set by the CPA at the end of the war, the official told reporters Sunday.

The country's oil reserves are the world's second-largest.

Pre-war the production was estimated to have been between 2.3 and 2.6 million barrels per day.

Three-quarters of the oil is being produced in the south, and the rest in the north, an imbalance the official blamed in part on sabotage of a pipeline running north to Turkey.

Since last June, when production resumed after the war, the country has earned $5.079 billion from its oil sales, he said.

Oil revenue for 2004 will be between $14 billion and $16 billion, he predicted.

But that's not going to be enough to pay for the modernization of the country's oil industry and provide funds for other aspects of Iraq economy, he said.

The number of successful attacks on Iraq's oil infrastructure has dropped from 47 per month in the last quarter of 2003 to four per month in January and February, he said, crediting better protection of facilities by an army of 14,000 private security guards.

Erinys, the security company, is under the command of U.S. forces, but is to be handed over to the oil ministry in the northern summer.

Immediately after the fall of President Saddam Hussein nearly a year ago, the country's oil facilities were looted and sabotaged.

Since then, about $2 billion has been spent -- most of it from the United States -- repairing pipelines and beefing up security as refineries have been put back on line, the official said. Another $2 billion is expected to be spent this year, he added.

Paul Bremer, the chief U.S. civilian administrator, is expected to hand power -- including control of the nation's oil facilities -- to an Iraqi government on June 30. CPA oil advisers are working to create an ethical and transparent oil ministry by then, they said.

In response to a question, the official said an Iraqi state oil company would likely be created, but said outside help would still be needed to modernize the industry's infrastructure, much of which is 30 years old.

He predicted that could take 10 to 15 years, meaning that long-term investment -- as much as $30 billion more -- is needed.

a secondary question was asked regarding the current price of oil and why it has risen to the point it has. personally, i see the massive rise in world usage (china, especially) has overextended the oil producer's predictions and caught them with their production low.

this article gives more information:

Quote:

article can be found here: http://edition.cnn.com/2004/BUSINESS...ina.oil.demand
China factor driving oil prices

(CNN) -- Surging Chinese demand is underpinning the recent spike in the price of oil, figures from the International Energy Agency (IEA) show.

This "China factor" has more bearing on oil prices than the "risk factor" coming from global tensions, some experts say.

While speculative buying on heightened tension in the Middle East is seen as the reason oil futures touched a 21-year high of $41.85 a barrel in New York earlier this month, oil experts insist the price rises are driven primarily by demand growth -- about half of which is coming from China.

An energy exporter until just a few years ago, China is now the world's fastest growing major importer of oil.

In the first three months of 2004, when China's economy grew at a breakneck pace of 9.7 percent, demand for oil in China grew almost 1 million barrels a day.

Naomi Fink, a senior analyst with BNP Paribas in Tokyo, told CNN Monday that "so far, we are seeing demand-driven price increases".

With the Chinese government determined to slow the pace of economic growth, analysts say oil prices could drop sharply next year in response to cooling demand.

Andy Xie, Hong Kong-based chief Asia economist for Morgan Stanley, believes the oil price spike is a result of China's investment overshooting, leading to a shortage of electricity that has seen diesel being substituted for coal to generate power.

In a commentary released Sunday, Xie said he expected China's electricity shortage would peak in the northern summer and fixed investment would decelerate sharply in the second half of this year.

This would see the oil price reverting to a mean of about $25 a barrel towards the end of this year, and falling below the mean in 2005, Xie said.

Demand fluctuations
In Xie's view, world oil prices could become captive to Chinese demand fluctuations, in the same way that metal prices are now driven by China's investment cycle.

Based on long-term trends, Xie says China's oil consumption could double from 7 million barrels a day now to 14 million a day by 2014. But he says China cannot afford this, and so must become more energy-efficient or find substitutes for oil.

Despite this China factor, the international political focus remains on the actions of OPEC and key producers such as Saudi Arabia, which on Friday proposed that OPEC pump an extra two million barrels of oil a day.

That would lift the 11-member cartel's official production ceiling to 25.5 million barrels a day. Output by the OPEC-10 (which excludes Iraq) has been running slightly above this figure for the past six months.

But the Saudi plan did not win enough support at a weekend meeting in Amsterdam attended by OPEC oil ministers, and will now be discussed when OPEC members meet in Beirut on June 3.

On Sunday, the world's richest economies -- the Group of Seven -- called on oil producers to pump enough oil to support the world's rapid economic growth pace. (G7 calls for more)

But latest IEA figures show production is more than meeting demand.

According to the IEA's May oil market report, global demand this year is running at 80.6 million barrels a day.

World oil production fell by 440,000 barrels a day in April to 81.5 million barrels, with the supply by OPEC members falling by 415,000 barrels a day.

Non-OPEC oil comes primarily from the former USSR (mainly Russia and Kazakhstan), with more than 11 million barrels a day, followed by Latin America on 4.08 mbpd, Africa 3.46 mbpd and China 3.40 million bpd.

The G7, made up of the United States, Japan, the United Kingdom, France, Germany, Italy and Canada, said Sunday the global economy is enjoying its fastest expansion in 15 years, with growth rates of around 4.25 percent.

To maintain that pace, the G7 supports oil supply increases along the lines of the proposal by Saudi Arabia.

Gas prices in the United States have climbed sharply over the past two weeks, rising more than 14 cents to an average of $2.07 per gallon, according to a nationwide survey released Sunday. (U.S. gas prices rise)

On Monday U.S. oil prices fell almost one percent. U.S. light crude (CLc1) sank to an intraday low of $39.48 a barrel, extending Friday's 87-cent fall to below the $40-a-barrel threshold after Saudi oil minister Ali al-Naimi announced the proposal.

According to Venezuela's Energy Minister Rafael Ramirez, oil prices will fall when Middle East tensions ease and speculators step back.

He said at the weekend there was a premium of $8 a barrel in oil prices because of fears of sabotage attacks on key oil infrastructure in the Middle East, which holds two-thirds of global reserves.

don't threadjack. it's rude.

boatin · 06-05-2004, 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by hammer4all
No, that is not the war for oil logic. The war was about control of oil.

Sorry hammer, wasn't trying to put words in your mouth. Since you hadn't posted, not sure how it would have been possible. Perhaps I should have clarified my post with: this is my opinion and understanding of the 'war for oil' logic.

Quote:

Originally posted by phredgreen
don't threadjack. it's rude.

I'm not smart enough to know who you are talking to, phredgreen. Since the title is "iraq and oil", and everyone is talking about Oil, Iraq and war, I'm not sure what your beef is. Sorry to be dim.

hammer4all · 06-05-2004, 11:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by boatin
Sorry hammer, wasn't trying to put words in your mouth. Since you hadn't posted, not sure how it would have been possible. Perhaps I should have clarified my post with: this is my opinion and understanding of the 'war for oil' logic.

Heh, don't mind me. I was just trying to clarify.

Quote:

I'm not smart enough to know who you are talking to, phredgreen. Since the title is "iraq and oil", and everyone is talking about Oil, Iraq and war, I'm not sure what your beef is. Sorry to be dim.

I don't quite understand what the problem is myself.

phredgreen · 06-05-2004, 11:40 PM

for anyone else who didn't read my post, i'll restate myself:

Quote:

Originally posted by phredgreen
the question being asked is: IS THERE CURRENTLY OIL PRODUCTION IN IRAQ? IF SO, THEN WHO IS FINANCING ITS EXTRACTION AND WHO IS PROFITING FROM THAT OPERATION?

a secondary question was asked regarding the current price of oil and why it has risen to the point it has.

I then offered information as to possible answers to both questions.

i hope that clears up any further confusion.

Dragonlich · 06-05-2004, 11:51 PM

I'd say the oil prices aren't this high simply because of the higher demand than before, but mostly because of the fear that the supply will drop. If demand and supply are close (like they are now), then one small terror attack, or one small misplaced rocket during a war could reduce the supply levels significantly.

Fear leads to higher demands to buy as much oil as possible *before* this potential bad thing happens. higher demand, with stable (or declining) supplies lead to higher prices. And these prices are of course higher than they would have been without that fear.

boatin · 06-06-2004, 12:12 AM

Sorry phredgreen. I did read the words of your first post. And now I've read them in your second post. I still don't get it. Still dim here. Posting the same thing doesn't really clear up confusion. Large type doesn't really help clarity either. Please assume that I am trying, and failing. Because I am.

The question that was asked was:

Quote:

Originally posted by SiphonX
why are gas prices so damn high now??

your question(s) of:

Quote:

Originally posted by Phredgreen
IS THERE CURRENTLY OIL PRODUCTION IN IRAQ? IF SO, THEN WHO IS FINANCING ITS EXTRACTION AND WHO IS PROFITING FROM THAT OPERATION?

are actually different than the original poster asked. Related, but different.

Not sure how my related but different psuedo answer, or Hammer's related but different comments are threadjacking. Any more than I am sure how your related but different questions are threadjacking.

Please help me understand who is jacking. Seems like a discussion where everyone is talking about the same points. Until this sub-thread, of course.

phredgreen · 06-06-2004, 12:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SiphonX
i was just curious if the US is extracting oil from iraq, 'cos everybody says thats why we went to war

i fleshed the question out a bit more to encourage discussion.
followed by the second question,

Quote:

Originally posted by SiphonX
why are gas prices so damn high now??

now that we are absolutely sure what questions were asked, can we move past the inital phase and answer them?

boatin · 06-06-2004, 01:19 AM

Sigh.

Perhaps after one more comment: how do you know that your "flesh" on the question gets at what the poster was after? Perhaps the discussion that was happening was what he was after.

My answer remains the same: gas is expensive because it's not about the consumer. We don't count. It's about business making more money. That's my cynical thought for the night.

gnite all.

phredgreen · 06-06-2004, 01:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by boatin
Perhaps after one more comment: how do you know that your "flesh" on the question gets at what the poster was after? Perhaps the discussion that was happening was what he was after.

because, as a moderator, i looked at a one-line run-on from a person who had never posted in the politics board before and decided that, instead of letting this become another meaningless thread of back-and-forth, a well-defined question would better benefit the thread and promote meaningful debate. I took the initiative to ask two questions that were both neutral and wouldn't seem pointed in any specific direction/ideology/political standpoint. if you want to continue to debate this choice i have made, rather than the topic of the thread itself, i will simply close the thread. you've wasted too much of it on your midnless nitpicking.

tecoyah · 06-06-2004, 03:17 AM

Are we (USA) extracting oil from Iraq?: Yes
Is that why we went to war?: Part of the reason
Why are gas prices so high?: Because we went to war in Iraq

SiphonX · 06-06-2004, 08:56 AM

thats swell, alright thanks for the responses guys.

smooth · 06-06-2004, 09:00 AM

Rather than engage in "midnless nitpicking [sic]," I'll post this link to another thread that discusses this topic at length:

http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthr...threadid=51393

06-05-2004, 08:53 PM	#1 (permalink)
SiphonX Crazy Location: Miami Beach, Fl	Iraq and Oil i was just curious if the US is extracting oil from iraq, 'cos everybody says thats why we went to war...which is fine with me, as long as we're actually getting some friggin oil, but then again why are gas prices so damn high now?? __________________ /Knowledge is Power/

06-05-2004, 09:13 PM	#3 (permalink)
ObieX Pickles Location: Shirt and Pants (NJ)	Oil prices are so high because the people selling it want more money. Its that simple. Prices wont be going down any time soon, they'll only be goig up. It'll continue till we get some leaders who will actually do something about it. __________________ We Must Dissent.

06-06-2004, 01:19 AM	#12 (permalink)
boatin Psycho	Re: Iraq and Oil Sigh. Perhaps after one more comment: how do you know that your "flesh" on the question gets at what the poster was after? Perhaps the discussion that was happening was what he was after. My answer remains the same: gas is expensive because it's not about the consumer. We don't count. It's about business making more money. That's my cynical thought for the night. gnite all. Last edited by boatin; 06-06-2004 at 01:23 AM..

06-06-2004, 03:17 AM	#14 (permalink)
tecoyah Illusionary	Are we (USA) extracting oil from Iraq?: Yes Is that why we went to war?: Part of the reason Why are gas prices so high?: Because we went to war in Iraq __________________ Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

06-06-2004, 08:56 AM	#15 (permalink)
SiphonX Crazy Location: Miami Beach, Fl	thats swell, alright thanks for the responses guys. __________________ /Knowledge is Power/

06-05-2004, 09:12 PM	#2 (permalink)
boatin Psycho	If you buy the war for oil logic, the point is not to get gas for americans. The point is to make the oil companies (and their owners) richer. My understanding is that as the gas prices go up, the amount of profit the refining companies make goes up as well. If true, the theory goes, Bush cronies get richer - thereby justifying the war. Just for the record, I don't believe that was the reason for the war. Just a side effect that works well for the bush cronies. I would be interested to see numbers of oil companies profits over the last 10 years or so. If someone can demonstrate that profits are steady, I would be happy to change my opinion...

06-05-2004, 11:51 PM	#9 (permalink)
Dragonlich 42, baby! Location: The Netherlands	I'd say the oil prices aren't this high simply because of the higher demand than before, but mostly because of the fear that the supply will drop. If demand and supply are close (like they are now), then one small terror attack, or one small misplaced rocket during a war could reduce the supply levels significantly. Fear leads to higher demands to buy as much oil as possible before this potential bad thing happens. higher demand, with stable (or declining) supplies lead to higher prices. And these prices are of course higher than they would have been without that fear.

06-06-2004, 09:00 AM	#16 (permalink)
smooth Junkie Location: Right here	Rather than engage in "midnless nitpicking [sic]," I'll post this link to another thread that discusses this topic at length: http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthr...threadid=51393 __________________ "The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann "You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman