Gas hits $2.50 in San Francisco - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

elfuq · 06-03-2004, 06:10 PM

OK, it's $2.49 and 9/10 at the Chevron across from my apartment. And gas in California is more expensive because of more stringent emmision laws, and gas in the Bay Area is more expensive still because of .. I have no freaking idea. Oil companies want to rip off liberals or something.

But this has got to damage the economy, right? And while gas prices leap in response to oil price hikes, other prices and trickle-down effects take way longer. Food will cost more because it costs more to hawl it. Air travel will cost more because of the cost of Jet-A, which will reduce passenger loads which will drive prices up further.

Money spent on fuel will not be money spent on capital expenditure, which will damage the B2B economy (thinking this area) the computer business, which will trickle down to UNEMPLOYMENT!

And the election is in, what, 5 months? It's too late for George's Saudi buddies to really help. Oil prices MAY go down over the next few months, which with the usual lag will reduce the price at the pumps. But the economic damage done by this crisis won't be played out in 5 months.

If Kerry can focus on the economy for the tail end of the campaign, or even if he just shuts the hell up, Bush will lose this election.

OK, that was a rant. I would be very interested to hear my points taken apart logically.

Sparhawk · 06-03-2004, 06:21 PM

That's what Californians get for buying gas-guzzling SUV's in record numbers and passing stringent anti-carbon emission laws at the same time. Irony, how I love thy wicked touch.

Or, Bush is losing California in November, so what does he give a shit for?

djtestudo · 06-03-2004, 07:30 PM

I'm at the point in my life where I'm just starting to buy gas regularly for the first time. I think I'm going to jump into the race on the "Nuke Riyadh and steal all the Saudi oil" ticket.

Zeld2.0 · 06-04-2004, 12:16 AM

Ah but if we nuke them all their wells go up in smoke!

To be honest I don't know what to do about the oil - $50 a week is killer. And i feel for those who got to pay even more. I'm just lucky I don't have to drive often right now.

onetime2 · 06-04-2004, 03:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by elfuq
OK, it's $2.49 and 9/10 at the Chevron across from my apartment. And gas in California is more expensive because of more stringent emmision laws, and gas in the Bay Area is more expensive still because of .. I have no freaking idea. Oil companies want to rip off liberals or something.

But this has got to damage the economy, right? And while gas prices leap in response to oil price hikes, other prices and trickle-down effects take way longer. Food will cost more because it costs more to hawl it. Air travel will cost more because of the cost of Jet-A, which will reduce passenger loads which will drive prices up further.

Money spent on fuel will not be money spent on capital expenditure, which will damage the B2B economy (thinking this area) the computer business, which will trickle down to UNEMPLOYMENT!

And the election is in, what, 5 months? It's too late for George's Saudi buddies to really help. Oil prices MAY go down over the next few months, which with the usual lag will reduce the price at the pumps. But the economic damage done by this crisis won't be played out in 5 months.

If Kerry can focus on the economy for the tail end of the campaign, or even if he just shuts the hell up, Bush will lose this election.

OK, that was a rant. I would be very interested to hear my points taken apart logically.

You are making way too much out of fuel price hikes. While long lasting fuel price hikes will dampen the economy slightly while prices are adjusted to compensate, there's no chance these hikes will impact the economy significantly before the election.

Jesus Pimp · 06-04-2004, 08:00 AM

When I was in Yosemite a few weeks back I saw gas for $2.99!!

Quote:

While long lasting fuel price hikes will dampen the economy slightly while prices are adjusted to compensate, there's no chance these hikes will impact the economy significantly before the election.

Are you sure? The oil companies get richer while the average joe if forced to pay more at the pump.

Himbo · 06-04-2004, 08:20 AM

Well let's put this into perspective. 1 Canadian litre of fuel costs me 95.4 cents. 1 gallon of US fuel costs $2.50. The conversion from litres to us gallons is 1 : 0.26

In other words in Canada I am paying $3.66 for a gallon of gas in Canada. Make anybody feel better?

Seaver · 06-04-2004, 11:41 AM

Quote:

I have no freaking idea. Oil companies want to rip off liberals or something.

Or it could be the City of SF passed lots of taxes on gas? It's not some conspiracy.

Wax_off · 06-04-2004, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Seaver
Or it could be the City of SF passed lots of taxes on gas? It's not some conspiracy.

I don't think there's more taxes in SF, but what is going on is that the price of land is so high that no one wants to put a lowly gas station on a piece of land that could hold a high rise. So per capita there just arent' many gas stations, which lowers competition and increases the price. In addition, the price of doing business in SF is higher and so the cost of the product is higher too.

Not a conspiracy, just the effects of market forces.

Another reason for high prices is all those fucking SUVs. Since they guzzle gas so bad they've increased demand, which increases prices. The worst thing about it is that their legacy will be with us for the next 20 years or so. People won't just throw away their SUVs because of high prices, they'll pass them down the line to a new owner and so on until the car is dead. Perhaps market forces will come to bear there also. Perhaps the price of a used, gas guzzling SUV will drop dramatically because of their outrageous cost of ownership when gas goes over $5/gal. One may get better money for a SUV as scrap then selling it.

Eviltree · 06-04-2004, 02:41 PM

Yea, we're getting hammered for gas in Canada. Its up to and over a dollar/litre in Vancouver

HarmlessRabbit · 06-05-2004, 07:09 PM

It's fictional that CA prices are that much different than the rest of the country:

http://www.fuelgaugereport.com/sbsavg.asp

Why is SF expensive? Because it's a big city. Yes, SF is more expensive, we've gone into the reasons. But it isn't *that* much more. New York is at $2.43.

So, kind of a non-story here, I think.

MSD · 06-05-2004, 08:22 PM

Gas here starts at 2.14/gal It's gone up six cents since last time I filled up, and 8 since the time before that. I can remember a time, in the summer of '99, when regular was $99.9 for 87 octane.

Hopefully, OPEC will decide to open those pipes a bit wider. If not, we're still paying a third or a quarter of what Europeans do. I'll worry when I have to choose between a tank of gas and food for the week.

Jesus Pimp · 06-06-2004, 01:18 PM

Gas prices actually dropped a cent here in PA this past weekend woot!

phredgreen · 06-06-2004, 01:35 PM

according to the bbc:

Quote:

as found here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/h...ss/3708951.stm
Why are oil prices so high?

Crude oil prices have risen by about 25% this year to levels not seen since the early 1980s.
The latest rises are causing worries in importing countries about the economic cost of higher energy prices.

Higher fuel prices can cause unwelcome rises in inflation, restrict economic growth and are unpopular with voters.

Major oil exporters are divided between those such as Saudi Arabia and Kuwait that favour lifting output in an attempt to ease prices, and those such as Venezuela that argue against conciliatory moves towards big consumers, principally the US.

The price of US-traded light, sweet crude rose on 1 June to as much as $42 a barrel while UK-traded Brent crude from the North Sea reached about $39 a barrel.

BBC News Online explains why prices are so high.

RISING DEMAND

Global economic expansion is driving what the International Energy Agency says is the biggest increase in oil demand for 16 years.

There is higher than expected demand in industrialised countries and China's rapidly expanding economy has created a huge demand boost.

US demand has risen because of strengthening economic recovery and greater need for higher grade crude oil suitable for processing into petrol (gasoline) for the fuel-hungry Sport Utility Vehicles (SUVs) popular with US drivers.

Chinese demand is up 20% over the past year. Traders are betting this rapid growth will continue for several years although there is some chance that the economy will "overheat" and oil demand growth will slacken.

Among suppliers only Saudi Arabia has significant spare capacity that it could make available to the market.

LOW STOCKS

Oil companies have tried to become more efficient in recent years and operate with lower stocks of crude oil.

This means there is less of a cushion in the market against supply interruptions.

Events such as violence in the Middle East, ethnic tension in Nigeria and strikes in Venezuela have had a greater effect on prices in the past year than might have been the case if stock levels were higher.

OPEC STRATEGY

The producers' cartel Opec accounts for about half of the world's crude oil exports and attempts to keep prices roughly where it wants them by trimming or lifting supplies to the market.

In the past, Opec ministers tended to wait for prices to dip before agreeing to cut output.

But Opec is now acting more aggressively, announcing production cuts to pre-empt any weakening in prices.
International oil companies traditionally used times of seasonally weaker demand, when prices were lower, to rebuild stocks.

These windows now appear to have been closed.

Data error is an additional factor, some analysts say.

Consumption forecasts by market experts turned out to be too low. The result was that producers kept supplies even tighter than was needed to prevent rebuilding of stocks.

ACTION OF SPECULATORS

The combination of low stocks and Opec action to keep them low leaves the market exposed to the prospect of sudden price rises if supplies are threatened.

This has not gone unnoticed by professional market speculators.

Hedge funds and other speculators betting on the possibility of higher prices have themselves exacerbated price pressure in the market.

VIOLENCE IN THE MIDDLE EAST

The world's major oil consumers remain dependent on the Middle East for their oil. Recent violence in Iraq and Saudi Arabia has again raised fears about an interruption to supplies.

Iraqi exports have been cut by sabotage attacks on oil facilities. The reduction in supplies has been relatively modest but it has caused some doubts about Iraq's longer term prospects of becoming a large and stable oil exporter.

Attacks on foreign workers in Saudi Arabia by Al-Qaeda-inspired militants have also increased tensions.

Any substantial attack on Saudi oil facilities would be a major event for world oil markets. The country is the world's biggest oil producer and, by far, the biggest exporter.

Analysts also view political tension in non-Middle East states Nigeria and Venezuela as having the potential to disrupt exports and drive up world prices.

INSUFFICIENT US REFINERY CAPACITY

Low US gasoline stocks and pressure on US refiners to increase production of new gasoline blends have also helped drive world crude oil prices.

Environmental regulations demand new grades of gasoline, which can vary from state to state.

But building processing facilities to serve so many different markets is expensive and environmental concerns can make planning permission difficult to obtain.

This means refiners are struggling to meet demand. Analysts expect summer holiday driving demand in the US to magnify this problem.

it's interesting that some of you guys are marking this as a massive conspiracy against the american consumer, but understand that prices are high everywhere... the is a world issue, not an american issue. look outside the box and see that there are people all over the globe in the same situation. once you've done that, you'll better understand that it'll take an effort of people all over the globe to change this phenomenon.

ARTelevision · 06-06-2004, 02:19 PM

Excellent there, phredgreen.

Yes, global economics is a complex matter and not amenable to simple explanations. Those are indeed the realities. Thanks.

06-03-2004, 06:10 PM	#1 (permalink)
elfuq Insane Location: San Francisco	Gas hits $2.50 in San Francisco OK, it's $2.49 and 9/10 at the Chevron across from my apartment. And gas in California is more expensive because of more stringent emmision laws, and gas in the Bay Area is more expensive still because of .. I have no freaking idea. Oil companies want to rip off liberals or something. But this has got to damage the economy, right? And while gas prices leap in response to oil price hikes, other prices and trickle-down effects take way longer. Food will cost more because it costs more to hawl it. Air travel will cost more because of the cost of Jet-A, which will reduce passenger loads which will drive prices up further. Money spent on fuel will not be money spent on capital expenditure, which will damage the B2B economy (thinking this area) the computer business, which will trickle down to UNEMPLOYMENT! And the election is in, what, 5 months? It's too late for George's Saudi buddies to really help. Oil prices MAY go down over the next few months, which with the usual lag will reduce the price at the pumps. But the economic damage done by this crisis won't be played out in 5 months. If Kerry can focus on the economy for the tail end of the campaign, or even if he just shuts the hell up, Bush will lose this election. OK, that was a rant. I would be very interested to hear my points taken apart logically.

06-03-2004, 06:21 PM	#2 (permalink)
Sparhawk Dubya Location: VA	That's what Californians get for buying gas-guzzling SUV's in record numbers and passing stringent anti-carbon emission laws at the same time. Irony, how I love thy wicked touch. Or, Bush is losing California in November, so what does he give a shit for? __________________ "In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work. It's incredibly hard. It's - and it's hard work. I understand how hard it is. I get the casualty reports every day. I see on the TV screens how hard it is. But it's necessary work. We're making progress. It is hard work."

06-03-2004, 07:30 PM	#3 (permalink)
djtestudo Baltimoron Location: Beeeeeautiful Bel Air, MD	I'm at the point in my life where I'm just starting to buy gas regularly for the first time. I think I'm going to jump into the race on the "Nuke Riyadh and steal all the Saudi oil" ticket. __________________ "Final thought: I just rented Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine. Frankly, it was the worst sports movie I've ever seen." --Peter Schmuck, The (Baltimore) Sun

06-06-2004, 01:18 PM	#13 (permalink)
Jesus Pimp The Original JizzSmacka	Gas prices actually dropped a cent here in PA this past weekend woot! __________________ Never date anyone who doesn't make your dick hard.

06-06-2004, 02:19 PM	#15 (permalink)
ARTelevision I change Location: USA	Excellent there, phredgreen. Yes, global economics is a complex matter and not amenable to simple explanations. Those are indeed the realities. Thanks. __________________ create evolution

06-04-2004, 12:16 AM	#4 (permalink)
Zeld2.0 Cherry-pickin' devil's advocate Location: Los Angeles	Ah but if we nuke them all their wells go up in smoke! To be honest I don't know what to do about the oil - $50 a week is killer. And i feel for those who got to pay even more. I'm just lucky I don't have to drive often right now.

06-04-2004, 08:20 AM	#7 (permalink)
Himbo Tilted Location: Canada	Well let's put this into perspective. 1 Canadian litre of fuel costs me 95.4 cents. 1 gallon of US fuel costs $2.50. The conversion from litres to us gallons is 1 : 0.26 In other words in Canada I am paying $3.66 for a gallon of gas in Canada. Make anybody feel better?

06-04-2004, 02:41 PM	#10 (permalink)
Eviltree Psycho Location: British Columbia	Yea, we're getting hammered for gas in Canada. Its up to and over a dollar/litre in Vancouver

06-05-2004, 07:09 PM	#11 (permalink)
HarmlessRabbit Junkie Location: San Jose, CA	It's fictional that CA prices are that much different than the rest of the country: http://www.fuelgaugereport.com/sbsavg.asp Why is SF expensive? Because it's a big city. Yes, SF is more expensive, we've gone into the reasons. But it isn't that much more. New York is at $2.43. So, kind of a non-story here, I think.

06-05-2004, 08:22 PM	#12 (permalink)
MSD The sky calls to us ... Super Moderator Location: CT	Gas here starts at 2.14/gal It's gone up six cents since last time I filled up, and 8 since the time before that. I can remember a time, in the summer of '99, when regular was $99.9 for 87 octane. Hopefully, OPEC will decide to open those pipes a bit wider. If not, we're still paying a third or a quarter of what Europeans do. I'll worry when I have to choose between a tank of gas and food for the week.