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yatzr

I know it's not funny. That's the point I'm making. People don't really want the US to fail, but many people do want to see the president fail. I'm not saying that all liberals (or even most) want to see the president fail, but some do.
It's like saying "do you want us to lose in iraq" vs. "do you want GW's plan to fail". The first one is impossible to say yes to while the second isn't because it focuses on the person they don't like. They can both be considered the same thing though.

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Mechanical Engineers build weapons. Civil Engineers build targets.

smooth

Except that liberals don't want our president's plan to fail, we just see aspects of it that are failing.

Instead of acknowledging the criticism, or ignoring it if one doesn't care to hear it, we get lambasted for hating someone we don't even know and will never meet.

We care about the direction our country is heading, too.

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"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann

"You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman

Wax_off

Despite the thread's topic being blatant trolling, I'll answer. (BTW I agree with a previous poster that it is an equally valid question to ask, "Why does GWB want the US to fail?")

Anyway... I don't want to US to fail. Nor do I want GWB to fail.

But he has. He has failed the American people and the best thing for us at this point is to get GWB out of office. It is my right to say that as an American citizen, and not at all "unpatriotic." In fact it is my duty to advocate and vote for what I think is best for the country.

That is my current opinion based on almost four years of observation, seeing that the bad VASTLY overwhelms the good in this administration. At this point it would take something truly incredible for me to change my mind.

yatzr

so are you saying that there isn't a single liberal that doesn't want to actually see GW fail?

I said that some (not all or even most) feel this way. I think it would be pretty naive to think otherwise. Much how if kerry won the election there would be plenty of conservatives that would want to see him fail (no more than those who want to see GW fail though ). It happens because we're human. We don't think of it as wanting the US to fail, but that's basically (although rather indirectly) what it is.

edit: I guess when i say this, I'm thinking about the people who hated bush since day 1, not necessarily those who are recently dissapointed with him. Many of those people wanted to be able to give a big "I told you so" to everyone and they wanted GW to fail. It'll be the same if kerry gets elected. Many people who already hate him would love for him to fuck up so they can give a big "I told you so" to everyone else. Sad, but true.

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Mechanical Engineers build weapons. Civil Engineers build targets.

smooth

I'm saying that every liberal that has wasted time posting in this thread has denied hating George Bush personally.

If you want to keep making accusations about people neither of us have met, and asking me to speak for them, I don't really have much more information for you.

In the context of this thread, where conservative posters are essentially bashing the liberal posters or at least stating derogatory things about their political ideology, what is your point in asking me if I know of a single liberal who hates George Bush?

Whether you think it's human nature or not, and despite your prediction if a democrat was in power, once people who share internet space with you almost on a daily basis claim that they feel offended and request you to stop, I think it would behoove you to let off the rhetoric for the sake of harmony on the community.

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"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann

"You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman

Wax_off

Ummm... I think you need to back that assertion up a bit. Wanting the president to fail (not saying I want that) is the same as wanting the country to fail??? Huh???

The more I look at that the less sense it makes.

Zeld2.0

I'd like to take this time to say that the president does not equal the country. If you want a president to get kicked out, that doesn't mean you hate the country. If you want to see GWB fail to return, that's not hating the country or wanting it to fail. Hell, you're doing what politics is about - get the guy you want in, get the guy you don't want out.

Not supporting the president does not mean you are not supporting the country. It might seem so but it ain't.

smooth

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"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann

"You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman

tecoyah

So...are you saying there is not a single conservative, who wants to see GW fail? I mean...come on. Why even bother to pick an Ideology for a statement like that.

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Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

yatzr

maybe i just suck at pointing out the obvious. Lets go back to the beginning. The year is 2000. Bush and Gore are going at it. I hear a lot of mean things about Bush (Gore too, but that's not the point). I hear some people saying that Bush is going to run the country into the ground. I even hear other people saying they'll leave the country if Bush is elected.

2001. Bush was elected. Those people saying all those mean things are pissed. Now: do you think they would like bush to be the best president ever...or....do you think they'd like to see him screw up? I hear a lot of them today saying "I told you so" which leads me to believe they wanted him to screw up all along. For them that's better than him being an awesome president and other people shoving a big "I told you so" in their face isn't it? Maybe I'm just less optimistic about the mindsets of the general public.

This part's just for you smooth. I know it can be tough to see how the president and the US might be linked. For starters...why has GW failed so far? Is it because his daughters are kinda skanky?? Is it because he crashed his bike?? Or maybe...just maybe...is it because he did something that hurt the US? Isn't that really what the president failing is? So would it not be safe to say that when the president fails, the US is hurt? So then, if that is in fact true, (I think my logic is okay on this) wanting the president to fail can be considered the same as wanting the US to be hurt.

lastHmmm, yep, I suppose that could be deduced from my statement. I thought it was obvious but apparently not obvious enough that there are in fact liberals that would like to see the president fail and they are the majority of those who do want to see the president fail. I don't remember ever saying there weren't any conservatives who wanted to see the president fail...this thread is only about liberals .

__________________
Mechanical Engineers build weapons. Civil Engineers build targets.

Zeld2.0

Where is this majority yatzr?

Can you prove that?

What is "obvious" to you does not mean its the truth or how most people feel. Sure, you can paint the brush on everyone to be the same, but the fact is, it's not. Its your perception.

I think those who label themselves liberal (and get labeled) would probably know how they are feeling, and not those who find it obvious.

But anyways, one could ask this question - "Why are Conservatives so eager for Clinton to fail?"

There were quite a bunch wanting him to fail

Those who say "support the president" now weren't saying that same thing a few years ago.

smooth

I'll make this more clear for you since you didn't get it the first time I wrote it.

The president doesn't have any more of a legitimate claim to knowing what's best for the country than any other citizen. That is, just because I disagree with his ideas doesn't mean I don't know/want what's best for my country.

If I disagree with an elected official, it doesn't make me traitorous or desirous to see my own country look bad in the eyes of other people in the world.

You didn't even pay attention to much of what I wrote.

This thread was specifically directed at liberal members of the TFP. Not one conservative has come forward and stated that they don't share this apparent animosity toward the liberal posters.

Your posts condoned and perpetuated this shameful stance against other members of our online community. Meanwhile, while liberals are constantly warned via PM's that their comments are taken as personal attacks, this thread is allowed and championed because various people are using vague references to some amorphous group.

They can then step back and claim to not be speaking to anyone in particular--and somehow this makes their statements acceptable. I haven't seen any other thread where an entire group of members of this board have been harassed for their viewpoints. This is even more insidious than just "squelching" political dissent, something I view as inappropriate behavior to begin with. This attack is against what are otherwise fellow members of a board Halx and others have spent huge amounts of time to develop friendship ties with.

I don't particularly mind if you continue to ignore my wishes. I can't control what you decide to do with your time. I can leave this thread at any time just like I'd leave your presence if we met in a social setting. But you haven't made a very good impression on me in terms of your personality, and I don't particularly have any desire to meet you in real life if this is how you act out there, too. I can respect someone else's ideology, but I choose not to interact with people who tell me how I think and feel--regardless of what I explicitly claim to be true for me. It doesn't really affect either of us in terms of our otherwise normal lives. I just thought you had a right to know how I feel about the personality you projected onto the forum.

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"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann

"You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman

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