Iraqi Wedding Party Hit by U.S.; Over 20 Killed - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

edwhit · 05-19-2004, 09:59 AM

DUBAI (Reuters) - Al Arabiya television said more than 20 people were killed Wednesday when a wedding party in Iraq (news - web sites) was hit by a U.S. military bombardment.

The Dubai-based network's Baghdad correspondent said the party was being held at a village near the Iraqi-Syrian border. It did not give any more details

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp..._us_bombing_dc

FFS, aren't we in enough trouble over there?

Kadath · 05-19-2004, 10:06 AM

Yeah, not to echo onetime2 if I can help it, but I'd wait for confirmation of that story.

onetime2 · 05-19-2004, 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kadath
Yeah, not to echo onetime2 if I can help it, but I'd wait for confirmation of that story.

Ok then, I'll echo you.

Confirmation would be nice.

edwhit · 05-19-2004, 10:51 AM

I'm sure it was an accident and all.

Officials say American aircraft kill more than 40 at wedding party

SCHEHEREZADE FARAMARZI, Associated Press Writer
Wednesday, May 19, 2004

(05-19) 10:41 PDT BAGHDAD, Iraq (AP) --

A U.S. helicopter fired on a wedding party early Wednesday in western Iraq, killing more than 40 people, Iraqi officials said. The U.S. military said it could not confirm the report and was investigating.

Lt. Col Ziyad al-Jbouri, deputy police chief of the city of Ramadi, said between 42 and 45 people died in the attack, which took place about 2:45 a.m. in a remote desert area near the border with Syria and Jordan. He said those killed included 15 children and 10 women.

Dr. Salah al-Ani, who works at a hospital in Ramadi, put the death toll at 45.

Associated Press Television News obtained videotape showing a truck containing bodies of those allegedly killed.

About a dozen bodies, one without a head, could be clearly seen. but it appeared that bodies were piled on top of each other and a clear count was not possible.

The Dubai-based Al-Arabiya television reported that more than 20 people were killed and 10 injured in the attack.

Iraqis interviewed on the videotape said partygoers had fired into the air in a traditional wedding celebration. American troops have sometimes mistaken celebratory gunfire for hostile fire.

"I cannot comment on this because we have not received any reports from our units that this has happened nor that any were involved in such a tragedy," Lt. Col. Dan Williams, a U.S. military spokesman, wrote in an e-mail in response to a question from The Associated Press.

"We take all these requests seriously and we have forwarded this inquiry to the Joint Operations Center for further review and any other information that may be available," Williams said.

The video footage showed mourners with shovels digging graves. A group of men crouched and wept around one coffin.

Al-Ani said people at the wedding fired weapons in the air, and that American troops came to investigate and left. However, al-Ani said, helicopters attacked the area at about 3 a.m. Two houses were destroyed, he said.

"This was a wedding and the (U.S.) planes came and attacked the people at a house. Is this the democracy and freedom that (President) Bush has brought us?" said a man on the videotape, Dahham Harraj. "There was no reason."

Another man shown on the tape, who refused to give his name, said the victims were at a wedding party "and the U.S. military planes came... and started killing everyone in the house."

In July 2002, Afghan officials said 48 civilians at a wedding party were killed and 117 wounded by a U.S. airstrike in Afghanistan's Uruzgan province. An investigative report released by the U.S. Central Command said the airstrike was justified because American planes had come under fire.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...309EDT0611.DTL

jb2000 · 05-19-2004, 12:18 PM

Unfortunately, it appears we have crashed another wedding party. I haven't seen the US yet accept responsibility for this incident, but more inof is coming out that seems to make it most likely.

This is what happens in war.

The longer our troops are mired in the situation the more often things like this happen.

The cost of war should never be underestimated or hidden from the public. If the cause is truly just, then we will accept the price. If the cost is hidden from us, it indicates that the cause is not truly just or worthy of that cost.

Dostoevsky · 05-19-2004, 12:31 PM

Sadly, mistakes happen in war. To be honest, after seeing that Nick Berg tape, I don't really give a shit what happens to any of them. Yes, I realize they may have been innocent.

filtherton · 05-19-2004, 01:13 PM

Woopsie! This is not a very effective way to win the hearts and minds of the iraqi people.

Dostoevsky, you do realize that the people who killed berg might not have even been iraqi, right? In any case, hearing about the us killing wedding goers, some iraqis might make the same ideological choice as you and decide not to gice a shit about what happens to any americans. I say, good for you, atleast you can say that you now empathise with the perspectives of some of those you would label our enemies.

rgr22j · 05-19-2004, 01:20 PM

Let's not get too hasty yet --

Quote:

BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- Pentagon officials Wednesday denied alleged eyewitness reports of a U.S. attack on a wedding party in a remote area of western Iraq that killed innocent civilians.

"Our report is that this was not a wedding party, that these were anti-coalition forces that fired first, and that U.S. troops returned fire, destroying several vehicles, and killing a number of them," a Pentagon spokesman said.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/...ain/index.html

-- Alvin

Not Normal · 05-19-2004, 02:32 PM

Some of them were children. Yikes.

hiredgun · 05-19-2004, 02:40 PM

how can the administration deny any mistake if women and children were killed?

Pacifier · 05-19-2004, 03:35 PM

a wedding party? again?

pan6467 · 05-19-2004, 06:02 PM

I will withhold judgement and saying anything either way. If the DoD is accurate in rgr's quote then weapons will turn up and prove them right. Just as if no weapons are found it will prove the wedding party right.

I find it funny in a time of war that someone would have a wedding with 40+ near the Syria border when they know that area is watched and any mass of people would draw attention. It could very easily be a setup to get more world sympathy and hatred towards the US.

However, in war perhaps celebrating happy events can alleviate the stress awhile and be good.

I do not believe in the torture we gave out. That said, in war we have the duty to protect our soldiers in anyway possible from being harmed.

j8ear · 05-19-2004, 06:15 PM

Let's assume the worst of the reports are true and them double them. 80 dead, and in fact a happy wedding....

I have one small thing to say:

Stop fucking shooting your AK's in the air when war planes are dusting over head you fucking morons.

People who have massive weaponry, fear for their lives on a daily basis, and have permission to defend themselves from incoming fire will BLOW YOU AWAY....without hesitation, and without a second thought for any customs or traditions you have.

-bear

Boo · 05-19-2004, 06:21 PM

My personal feeling are not sympathetic with the Iraqi people. If they started shooting guns off at a wedding while under occupation then they are worthy of a Darwin Award. Truthfully, I am sick of the violence and don't really want to hear about another child dying.

My real concerns are for the future. This love/hate relationship is not going to end overnight. Our occupation is not making the world any safer. I smell a huge war with bitter feelings and I don't like it.

MSD · 05-19-2004, 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by hiredgun
how can the administration deny any mistake if women and children were killed?

They aren't following the Geneva Convention. They hide among women and children, and some of those women and children are also armed. If it was insurgents disguised as a wedding party, then we have to be mroe careful. If there were insurgents hiding among the party trying to take shots at us and become martyrs, I think I can guess who's getting the seven virgins in the afterlife, and it isn't the armed ones.

LowRider · 05-19-2004, 08:36 PM

Quote:

Stop fucking shooting your AK's in the air when war planes are dusting over head you fucking morons.

I have to second that idea. Funny thing about military pilots, if you shoot at them, they will usually shoot back if able. I understand it may be a custom, but what did they do before automatic weapons? Try fireworks. Or rice. But do not fire in the direction of aircaft carring thousands of pounds of high explosives if you do not what them to shoot back.

I am trying real hard to see the other side of the coin, but at anything over 150 knots, a wedding party out in the middle of the desert probably looks like any other camp.

Dostoevsky · 05-19-2004, 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by filtherton
Dostoevsky, you do realize that the people who killed berg might not have even been iraqi, right?

Yes, I do realize that. The radical, fundamentalist, hate filled attitude is still the same. Nationality doesn't really matter.

Quote:

Originally posted by filtherton
In any case, hearing about the us killing wedding goers, some iraqis might make the same ideological choice as you and decide not to gice a shit about what happens to any americans.

First of all, I guarantee that some detail pertaining to the situation here is not being reported accurately. There has to be some understandable reason that group of people was fired upon.

Secondly, I can't find the words to convey to you how little I care about whether or not the Iraqi people care about Americans. As long as they stay in that festering little shithole country of theirs and don't send terrorist assholes into other nations and disrupt the lives of more civilized people, they can do and think whatever they like.

I'm so sick of the Islamic fundamentalist radicals, terrorists, American bashing foreigners, and even worse, Americans who don't take pride in being Americans that I'm past thinking or caring about their feelings and viewpoints. That's why I stated above that I really don't give a shit about what happens to any of them anymore. The statement applies uniformly to all the previously mentioned groups. I'm at wits end and I'm all out of caring.

filtherton · 05-19-2004, 11:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dostoevsky
I'm so sick of the Islamic fundamentalist radicals, terrorists, American bashing foreigners, and even worse, Americans who don't take pride in being Americans that I'm past thinking or caring about their feelings and viewpoints. That's why I stated above that I really don't give a shit about what happens to any of them anymore. The statement applies uniformly to all the previously mentioned groups. I'm at wits end and I'm all out of caring.

I find it interesting that you would put islamic fundamentalist radicals/terrorist into the same category as american bashing foreigners and pridelacking americans. One group wants to kill you and the other two simply disagree with you. Let's make a deal: I won't confuse pride with blind faith if you try to see the difference between the healthy expression of differing viewpoints and outright blind hatred for america.

Peetster · 05-20-2004, 01:53 AM

I suppose it would help if the wedding party stopped shooting weapons into the air in joyful celebration. It is a war zone.

onetime2 · 05-20-2004, 03:33 AM

Well, quite a few have already voiced my exact thoughts. Shooting into the air is stupid even if you're not in a war zone. Doing it during a war is stupendously ignorant. (If in fact this is what happened.)

qtpye4u84 · 05-20-2004, 03:52 AM

Yup......that would suck.

pan6467 · 05-20-2004, 03:59 AM

Well depends, if the guns were AK's and 9mm's I seriously doubt they would shoot down a plane or even threaten one.

However if they were shooting off anti-aircraft missiles then.....

That said any Iraqi firing close to the Syria border should know that that will peak our attention, and we will react. My gut instinct is it is a setup to play on the world's emotions and further show the US in a bad light.

Whether people want to face it or not this is Vietnam all over again. Our men and women over there are not facing a traditional army they are facing women and children who have guns, and even supposed "friends" who don't want us there and would turn on us the second someone else took power. But worst of all, like VietNam, we lack any true plan to get out peacefully.

almostaugust · 05-20-2004, 05:07 AM

I hate this 'serves em right' attitude, that seems to be subtexting alot of posts here. If these people were innocents then its a tradgedy regardless.

iamnormal · 05-20-2004, 05:08 AM

Must have been a gay wedding. You know how Bush is about that.

pan6467 · 05-20-2004, 06:19 AM

Almost,

I for one am, not in anyway saying "serves them right" . What I am saying is that it could either have been a setup, to make us look bad (which they have done in the past) or very stupid to be shooting guns in an area they know is heavily watched by us.

We cannot condemn every action our military makes in times of war or we will lose our men, because they will be unable to defend themselves.

I am not for the war, I think it is so companies like Halliburton can make a fortune, however, I cannot sit by and watch our men and women be handcuffed by not being allowed to protect themselves for fear of "bad press". Torture in a prison is one thing, taking out people who are armed and dangerous are another.

roachboy · 05-20-2004, 06:57 AM

this is a really unfortunate incident---while i do not accept the spin being put on it by the military, i can nonetheless see how it would be possible that a wedding celebration that involved shooting guns in a war zone could be misunderstood with tragic consequences.

however, in general i agree with pan in that this does not operate on the same register as the torture business.

it does seem that the irrational character of this war reproduces itself at every level.

Not Normal · 05-20-2004, 07:15 AM

I'm sorry, I don't go along with the idea that they deserved to die for being stupid. 40 people, including children, deserved to get blown up? That's something Saddam would do. Try to have a little human compassion.

OFKU0 · 05-20-2004, 07:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Not Normal
I'm sorry, I don't go along with the idea that they deserved to die for being stupid. 40 people, including children, deserved to get blown up? That's something Saddam would do. Try to have a little human compassion.

Agreed. Just reading this thread shows incredible ignorance by some.

And people are outraged themselves when they see Arabs celebrating U.S deaths? How ironic. How fucking ignorant.

For those so ignorant, the next time an American is hanging from a bridge, just think, there will be people just like some of you saying things like ,.." fuck em, kill em all."

It doesn't take much intellect to aspire to become the lowest common denominator.

Mehoni · 05-20-2004, 09:53 AM

Posted Sunday May 16th:

Quote:

Celebrating Iraqi style
An American patrol entered the Abu Hanifa mosque in Adhamiyah just an hour ago, a sergeant told the mosque Imam that they were searching for weapons and fighters whom had taken refuge inside the mosque. Nothing was found and no arrests were made as far as I know. Short fighting broke after the force was leaving the area, a couple of mortar rounds were fired, an American vehicle came under an RPG attack, and people from the area say it was damaged badly.

I could hear the fighting, since I was fairly close to the area at that time, but I didn't venture any closer. Adhamiyah is still considered a war zone, and surprises are bound to happen over there as it's the most anti-American district in Baghdad. Iraqi flags (with the Allahu Akbar sign) are pasted on almost every store, graffiti praising the 'valiant resistance' are all over the place, some prasing Saddam openly, and recently there have been a few shyly saluting Muqtada Al-Sadr and Al-Mahdi army.

Two days ago, Adhamiyah residents talked about clashes with American troops following the celebrations on the Iraqi Olympic football team's qualification to the Athens Olympics. Baghdad's night sky was red with celebratory gun fire at that day. Apparently, American patrols were bewildered and had mistaken the gun fire as attacks against them, possibly returning fire at foolish Iraqi football enthusiasts.

***

Contrary to what many people may imagine, celebrating by shooting in the air is not quite a recent tradition of Iraqi society. I've heard many Iraqis claim that this practice is alien to Iraqis, and that it had only been introduced during the rule of the Ba'ath, a reader emailed me once confused about the whole thing and wrote: "You can't
exactly say this a cultural thing, since AK-47's have only been around for a few decades,". They could never be more wrong. In fact, it dates back to at least a couple of centuries, since firearms were first introduced to the country during the 18th century. Almost every militant tribe at that time possessed fire power, the musket readily replaced the sword as a weapon used in raids against neighbouring trides and trade caravans. Tribesmen would celebrate victory by firing their spare bullets in the air while performing special dances and chanting hossat (tribal battle cry) fit for the occasion. And that's how it all originated. The practice also exists in similar societes throughout the Arab world, so it is not exclusive to Iraqis.

Many tribal leaders today still keep weapons used by their ancestors, they regard them with extreme care and pride, and they are passed over to successive generations and future Sheikhs. In rural Iraqi areas tribesmen and farmers use certain firing methods as signals, for example a call for help, to announce a newborn, a marriage, or the death of a significant person. Each signal has its own unique style, like 3 bullets fired in quick succession followed by 2 with a short pause in between. I remember once when we were teenagers and were partying at a friend's ranch north of Baghdad. A friend of ours wanted to impress us and he fired a few shots in the air from his pistol, and while others were filing up to take a try, shooting started suddenly from all around us, shortly afterwards some farmers passed by and offered our friend their condolences for his father's death, asking him how he met his unfortunate end! We didn't know anything about signals and all that stuff, so we were immensely surprised and the friend freaked out thinking his father had an accident or something. Of course our friend had coincidentally fired the death of a family member signal.

However, the tradition had only lately become common in urban areas. The capital (and other governorate centers) experienced a huge rate of growth and population following the 1958 coup, and due to poverty, dryness, and low opportunities for employment, a large number of peasant familes (sometimes whole clans) came to settle on the borders
of Baghdad mostly from the south (Sadr city is an excellent example of this migration phenomenon) creating huge slums areas. One cannot deny the fact that this brought great benefits to Baghdad in terms of man power and workers, but it has also brought along rural and tribal values and traditions in a direct conflict with urban civilised values
thus creating endless social problems and flourishing of crime and tribal traditions, new waves of migration continue to this day. The new settlers have to undergo drastic social changes in a very short period of time in order to adapt to their new environment, and just as their social circumstances rapidly evolved by the effect of urban Baghdadi society, they also integrated their own values brought from the rural
village into it, influencing urban dwellers. Celebratory gun fire is one of these products. Today, for example it is not uncommon to find a doctor or a university professor celebrate an event by shooting in the air.

The practice almost disappeared during the sixties until the nineties, when the former regime had controlled arms possession, and strongly prohibited any use of them. It returned again with a vengeance in the mid nineties after the regime implemented his controversial tribal policy and removed restrictions on tribal laws, but it was still mostly limited to rural parts, except when the regime granted permission for a specific event (such as Saddam's birthday or the Zahf Al-Kabir), or after the Iraqi football team wins a critical match. I remember my father (a man educated in the west) shooting in the air like crazy when the first Gulf War ended, that was the first and last time he ever did it.

Now, on Thursdays (the usual wedding day for Iraqis) you will have to remain indoors because of the ridiculous amount of gun fire in the air, the same for funerals, football events, and some creative instances such as getting your ancient car fixed! Yes, they do know that 'what goes up, comes down', but that won't change it. It is a bad habit indeed but if you lived here rest assured that you would be doing the same. Every individual is a product of his society.

LINK

onetime2 · 05-20-2004, 11:33 AM

I don't see anyone "celebrating their deaths". I see people saying that there's a pretty damned good chance of tragedy if you shoot off weapons in a freaking war zone. Tragic yes. Avoidable hell yes. The fault of the US? No. (Again, if this is in fact what happened.)

For those likening this to Americans hanging from a bridge, they're not even remotely similar. Were those Americans shooting guns out the windows of their vehicles? No. Was it even remotely an accident? Fuck no.

sportsrule101 · 05-21-2004, 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Not Normal
I'm sorry, I don't go along with the idea that they deserved to die for being stupid. 40 people, including children, deserved to get blown up?

No they don't deserve to die but sometimes they do its what happens when a war is going on. I believe the best way to stop junk like this from happening is to go finish the war take out all the militant even the ones hiding in religious places. I mean they are killing our boys over there.

*edit, fixed your tags.*

Rdr4evr · 05-21-2004, 11:54 AM

This world is going to shit, one day we will all pay for this.

Not Normal · 05-21-2004, 01:14 PM

I am not willing to make the US Army go to those extremes in order to win the conflict. We can't do dishonorable stuff like that...we are civilized. The burden is on us, as the only superpower in the world, to show mercy.

tecoyah · 05-21-2004, 01:19 PM

Bad....Very Bad.

debaser · 05-22-2004, 06:14 AM

The villages in that area are used as pipelines for smuggling weapons and fighters in from Syria. It is entirely possible that a wedding could be occuring concurently with foreign fighters moving through the village...

My condolences to the families of the innocent dead.

Hwed · 05-22-2004, 01:15 PM

Not a misleading headline at all, is it?

I guess "Military reacts to small-arms fire at 2:45 AM near Syrian border" just doesn't push papers.

I swear to God, we're going to lose this war because of the media and the democrats politicizing the whole thing for an election-year power grab. It's disgusting, and to treat our troops this way, while they're still in harm's way, is downright reckless.

The media needs a swift boot in the ass, and the democrats need to remember that "Our differences end at the nation's borders."

Mojo_PeiPei · 05-22-2004, 01:32 PM

Latest reports say that it was definitly not a wedding, and that no children were killed. Indeed 40 people died, 6 women, all of whom were attending an insurgent gathering.

Sorry folks looks like America wasn't the bad guy in this case.

Hwed · 05-22-2004, 01:36 PM

Quiet you! America is ALWAYS the bad guy when Bush is in charge! Blame America first!

BUSH ATE MY BABIES

/sarcasm

Rdr4evr · 05-22-2004, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hwed
Quiet you! America is ALWAYS the bad guy when Bush is in charge! Blame America first!

BUSH ATE MY BABIES

/sarcasm

Take away the Bush ate my babies and I would agree with that.

filtherton · 05-22-2004, 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hwed
Not a misleading headline at all, is it?

I guess "Military reacts to small-arms fire at 2:45 AM near Syrian border" just doesn't push papers.

I swear to God, we're going to lose this war because of the media and the democrats politicizing the whole thing for an election-year power grab. It's disgusting, and to treat our troops this way, while they're still in harm's way, is downright reckless.

The media needs a swift boot in the ass, and the democrats need to remember that "Our differences end at the nation's borders."

Yep, if we lose this war, it will be because of the democrats and the media.

It won't have anything to do with the republicans at all, even though a republican president started it and a republican administration has repeatedly shown itself to have a completely innaccurate image of reality when it comes to anything middle east. I think somebody else needs to remember who got us in to this mess in the first place.

05-19-2004, 09:59 AM	#1 (permalink)
edwhit Tilted	Iraqi Wedding Party Hit by U.S.; Over 20 Killed DUBAI (Reuters) - Al Arabiya television said more than 20 people were killed Wednesday when a wedding party in Iraq (news - web sites) was hit by a U.S. military bombardment. The Dubai-based network's Baghdad correspondent said the party was being held at a village near the Iraqi-Syrian border. It did not give any more details http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp..._us_bombing_dc FFS, aren't we in enough trouble over there?

05-19-2004, 10:06 AM	#2 (permalink)
Kadath Muffled Location: Camazotz	Yeah, not to echo onetime2 if I can help it, but I'd wait for confirmation of that story. __________________ it's quiet in here

05-19-2004, 12:18 PM	#5 (permalink)
jb2000 Crazy Location: Allen, TX	Unfortunately, it appears we have crashed another wedding party. I haven't seen the US yet accept responsibility for this incident, but more inof is coming out that seems to make it most likely. This is what happens in war. The longer our troops are mired in the situation the more often things like this happen. The cost of war should never be underestimated or hidden from the public. If the cause is truly just, then we will accept the price. If the cost is hidden from us, it indicates that the cause is not truly just or worthy of that cost. __________________ "Don't tell me we're so blind we cannot see that this is my land! I can't pretend that it's nothing to do with me. And this is your land, you can't close your eyes to this hypocracy. Yes this is my land, I won't pretend that it's nothing to do with me. 'Cause this is our land, we can't close our eyes to the things we don't wanna see." - DTH

05-19-2004, 12:31 PM	#6 (permalink)
Dostoevsky Psycho Location: Macon, GA	Sadly, mistakes happen in war. To be honest, after seeing that Nick Berg tape, I don't really give a shit what happens to any of them. Yes, I realize they may have been innocent. __________________ Pride is the recognition of the fact that you are your own highest value and, like all of man’s values, it has to be earned. It is not advisable, James, to venture unsolicited opinions. You should spare yourself the embarrassing discovery of their exact value to your listener. Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged

05-19-2004, 03:35 PM	#11 (permalink)
Pacifier undead Location: Duisburg, Germany	a wedding party? again? __________________ "It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously. I also cannot imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere. Science has been charged with undermining morality, but the charge is unjust. A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death — Albert Einstein

05-19-2004, 10:51 AM	#4 (permalink)
edwhit Tilted	I'm sure it was an accident and all. Officials say American aircraft kill more than 40 at wedding party SCHEHEREZADE FARAMARZI, Associated Press Writer Wednesday, May 19, 2004 (05-19) 10:41 PDT BAGHDAD, Iraq (AP) -- A U.S. helicopter fired on a wedding party early Wednesday in western Iraq, killing more than 40 people, Iraqi officials said. The U.S. military said it could not confirm the report and was investigating. Lt. Col Ziyad al-Jbouri, deputy police chief of the city of Ramadi, said between 42 and 45 people died in the attack, which took place about 2:45 a.m. in a remote desert area near the border with Syria and Jordan. He said those killed included 15 children and 10 women. Dr. Salah al-Ani, who works at a hospital in Ramadi, put the death toll at 45. Associated Press Television News obtained videotape showing a truck containing bodies of those allegedly killed. About a dozen bodies, one without a head, could be clearly seen. but it appeared that bodies were piled on top of each other and a clear count was not possible. The Dubai-based Al-Arabiya television reported that more than 20 people were killed and 10 injured in the attack. Iraqis interviewed on the videotape said partygoers had fired into the air in a traditional wedding celebration. American troops have sometimes mistaken celebratory gunfire for hostile fire. "I cannot comment on this because we have not received any reports from our units that this has happened nor that any were involved in such a tragedy," Lt. Col. Dan Williams, a U.S. military spokesman, wrote in an e-mail in response to a question from The Associated Press. "We take all these requests seriously and we have forwarded this inquiry to the Joint Operations Center for further review and any other information that may be available," Williams said. The video footage showed mourners with shovels digging graves. A group of men crouched and wept around one coffin. Al-Ani said people at the wedding fired weapons in the air, and that American troops came to investigate and left. However, al-Ani said, helicopters attacked the area at about 3 a.m. Two houses were destroyed, he said. "This was a wedding and the (U.S.) planes came and attacked the people at a house. Is this the democracy and freedom that (President) Bush has brought us?" said a man on the videotape, Dahham Harraj. "There was no reason." Another man shown on the tape, who refused to give his name, said the victims were at a wedding party "and the U.S. military planes came... and started killing everyone in the house." In July 2002, Afghan officials said 48 civilians at a wedding party were killed and 117 wounded by a U.S. airstrike in Afghanistan's Uruzgan province. An investigative report released by the U.S. Central Command said the airstrike was justified because American planes had come under fire. http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...309EDT0611.DTL

05-19-2004, 01:13 PM	#7 (permalink)
filtherton Junkie Location: In the land of ice and snow.	Woopsie! This is not a very effective way to win the hearts and minds of the iraqi people. Dostoevsky, you do realize that the people who killed berg might not have even been iraqi, right? In any case, hearing about the us killing wedding goers, some iraqis might make the same ideological choice as you and decide not to gice a shit about what happens to any americans. I say, good for you, atleast you can say that you now empathise with the perspectives of some of those you would label our enemies.

05-19-2004, 02:32 PM	#9 (permalink)
Not Normal Psycho Location: NY, USA	Some of them were children. Yikes.

05-19-2004, 02:40 PM	#10 (permalink)
hiredgun Addict	how can the administration deny any mistake if women and children were killed?

05-19-2004, 06:02 PM	#12 (permalink)
pan6467 Lennonite Priest Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA	I will withhold judgement and saying anything either way. If the DoD is accurate in rgr's quote then weapons will turn up and prove them right. Just as if no weapons are found it will prove the wedding party right. I find it funny in a time of war that someone would have a wedding with 40+ near the Syria border when they know that area is watched and any mass of people would draw attention. It could very easily be a setup to get more world sympathy and hatred towards the US. However, in war perhaps celebrating happy events can alleviate the stress awhile and be good. I do not believe in the torture we gave out. That said, in war we have the duty to protect our soldiers in anyway possible from being harmed. __________________ I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

05-19-2004, 06:15 PM	#13 (permalink)
j8ear Gentlemen Farmer Location: Middle of nowhere, Jersey	Let's assume the worst of the reports are true and them double them. 80 dead, and in fact a happy wedding.... I have one small thing to say: Stop fucking shooting your AK's in the air when war planes are dusting over head you fucking morons. People who have massive weaponry, fear for their lives on a daily basis, and have permission to defend themselves from incoming fire will BLOW YOU AWAY....without hesitation, and without a second thought for any customs or traditions you have. -bear __________________ It's alot easier to ask for forgiveness then it is to ask for permission.

05-19-2004, 06:21 PM	#14 (permalink)
Boo Leave me alone! Location: Alaska, USA	My personal feeling are not sympathetic with the Iraqi people. If they started shooting guns off at a wedding while under occupation then they are worthy of a Darwin Award. Truthfully, I am sick of the violence and don't really want to hear about another child dying. My real concerns are for the future. This love/hate relationship is not going to end overnight. Our occupation is not making the world any safer. I smell a huge war with bitter feelings and I don't like it. __________________ Back button again, I must be getting old.

05-20-2004, 01:53 AM	#19 (permalink)
Peetster Right Now Location: Home	I suppose it would help if the wedding party stopped shooting weapons into the air in joyful celebration. It is a war zone.

05-20-2004, 03:33 AM	#20 (permalink)
onetime2 Junkie Location: NJ	Well, quite a few have already voiced my exact thoughts. Shooting into the air is stupid even if you're not in a war zone. Doing it during a war is stupendously ignorant. (If in fact this is what happened.) __________________ Strive to be more curious than ignorant.

05-20-2004, 03:52 AM	#21 (permalink)
qtpye4u84 Flavor+noodles Location: oregon	Yup......that would suck. __________________ The QTpie

05-20-2004, 03:59 AM	#22 (permalink)
pan6467 Lennonite Priest Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA	Well depends, if the guns were AK's and 9mm's I seriously doubt they would shoot down a plane or even threaten one. However if they were shooting off anti-aircraft missiles then..... That said any Iraqi firing close to the Syria border should know that that will peak our attention, and we will react. My gut instinct is it is a setup to play on the world's emotions and further show the US in a bad light. Whether people want to face it or not this is Vietnam all over again. Our men and women over there are not facing a traditional army they are facing women and children who have guns, and even supposed "friends" who don't want us there and would turn on us the second someone else took power. But worst of all, like VietNam, we lack any true plan to get out peacefully. __________________ I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

05-20-2004, 05:07 AM	#23 (permalink)
almostaugust Junkie Location: Oz	I hate this 'serves em right' attitude, that seems to be subtexting alot of posts here. If these people were innocents then its a tradgedy regardless. __________________ 'And it's been a long December and there's reason to believe Maybe this year will be better than the last I can't remember all the times I tried to tell my myself To hold on to these moments as they pass'

05-20-2004, 05:08 AM	#24 (permalink)
iamnormal Addict Location: In the id	Must have been a gay wedding. You know how Bush is about that.

05-20-2004, 06:19 AM	#25 (permalink)
pan6467 Lennonite Priest Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA	Almost, I for one am, not in anyway saying "serves them right" . What I am saying is that it could either have been a setup, to make us look bad (which they have done in the past) or very stupid to be shooting guns in an area they know is heavily watched by us. We cannot condemn every action our military makes in times of war or we will lose our men, because they will be unable to defend themselves. I am not for the war, I think it is so companies like Halliburton can make a fortune, however, I cannot sit by and watch our men and women be handcuffed by not being allowed to protect themselves for fear of "bad press". Torture in a prison is one thing, taking out people who are armed and dangerous are another. __________________ I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

05-20-2004, 06:57 AM	#26 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	this is a really unfortunate incident---while i do not accept the spin being put on it by the military, i can nonetheless see how it would be possible that a wedding celebration that involved shooting guns in a war zone could be misunderstood with tragic consequences. however, in general i agree with pan in that this does not operate on the same register as the torture business. it does seem that the irrational character of this war reproduces itself at every level. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

05-20-2004, 07:15 AM	#27 (permalink)
Not Normal Psycho Location: NY, USA	I'm sorry, I don't go along with the idea that they deserved to die for being stupid. 40 people, including children, deserved to get blown up? That's something Saddam would do. Try to have a little human compassion.

05-20-2004, 11:33 AM	#30 (permalink)
onetime2 Junkie Location: NJ	I don't see anyone "celebrating their deaths". I see people saying that there's a pretty damned good chance of tragedy if you shoot off weapons in a freaking war zone. Tragic yes. Avoidable hell yes. The fault of the US? No. (Again, if this is in fact what happened.) For those likening this to Americans hanging from a bridge, they're not even remotely similar. Were those Americans shooting guns out the windows of their vehicles? No. Was it even remotely an accident? Fuck no. __________________ Strive to be more curious than ignorant.

05-21-2004, 11:54 AM	#32 (permalink)
Rdr4evr Banned	This world is going to shit, one day we will all pay for this.

05-21-2004, 01:14 PM	#33 (permalink)
Not Normal Psycho Location: NY, USA	I am not willing to make the US Army go to those extremes in order to win the conflict. We can't do dishonorable stuff like that...we are civilized. The burden is on us, as the only superpower in the world, to show mercy.

05-21-2004, 01:19 PM	#34 (permalink)
tecoyah Illusionary	Bad....Very Bad. __________________ Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

05-22-2004, 06:14 AM	#35 (permalink)
debaser Sir, I have a plan... Location: 38S NC20943324	The villages in that area are used as pipelines for smuggling weapons and fighters in from Syria. It is entirely possible that a wedding could be occuring concurently with foreign fighters moving through the village... My condolences to the families of the innocent dead. __________________ Fortunato became immured to the sound of the trowel after a while.

05-22-2004, 01:15 PM	#36 (permalink)
Hwed Tilted	Not a misleading headline at all, is it? I guess "Military reacts to small-arms fire at 2:45 AM near Syrian border" just doesn't push papers. I swear to God, we're going to lose this war because of the media and the democrats politicizing the whole thing for an election-year power grab. It's disgusting, and to treat our troops this way, while they're still in harm's way, is downright reckless. The media needs a swift boot in the ass, and the democrats need to remember that "Our differences end at the nation's borders."

05-22-2004, 01:32 PM	#37 (permalink)
Mojo_PeiPei Kiss of Death Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow	Latest reports say that it was definitly not a wedding, and that no children were killed. Indeed 40 people died, 6 women, all of whom were attending an insurgent gathering. Sorry folks looks like America wasn't the bad guy in this case. __________________ To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

05-22-2004, 01:36 PM	#38 (permalink)
Hwed Tilted	Quiet you! America is ALWAYS the bad guy when Bush is in charge! Blame America first! BUSH ATE MY BABIES /sarcasm