Dubya just down the road. - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Memnoch · 05-14-2004, 10:04 AM

I work in Mequon, WI, about two miles from the place that Bush is going to be speaking at today. I tried to go to lunch, but several roads are closed off and the rest of the roads are clogged with protestors/picketors that apparently would rather hassle me than let me eat my lunch. I don't know...I just think it's kind of silly. I don't see why any roads need to be closed off, and I don't see why people feel the need to protest against this man's appearance (because we all know how effectively peaceful protests work...

). I'm just kind of amused and annoyed. Figured I might as well share.

Shades · 05-14-2004, 03:53 PM

My favorite stupid protest locally was when a large mob of people decided to protest against cars, so they clogged a bunch of streets. Since they weren't cleared to do so, the cops arrested a lot of them. Then, the protesters tried to paint the cops like Nazis, even though what the protesters had done was blatantly illegal.

My favorite all time stupid protest happened at my Dad's office. He once worked for a really small, like less than 10 people, oil company. One morning, the entire front side of the building was picketed by a sizable group. In fact, there were many times more people protesting than there were in the company. And what were these geniuses protesting? The big bad oil company that was drilling in some environmental place that the protesters wanted to protect. Of course, nevermind the fact that Dad's oil company was not then, nor was even planning, to drill any wells within a hundred miles of that place, but hey, don't let a little thing called "reality" get in the way of a really good protest. I mean, you might score at one.

irateplatypus · 05-14-2004, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Shades
...but hey, don't let a little thing called "reality" get in the way of a really good protest. I mean, you might score at one.

i haven't made a broad generalization in a while... so here goes.

from the chics i've seen at those rallies... scoring wouldn't be high on my priority list. but, i guess even catherine zeta jones would be less attractive to me while shrieking "bush kills babies" and wearing a tie-dye shirt that smells of too many grateful dead concerts.

all in good fun...

Zeld2.0 · 05-14-2004, 05:16 PM

lol irate though i wouldn't care much if it were catherine zeta jones!

pig · 05-14-2004, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by irateplatypus
but, i guess even catherine zeta jones would be less attractive to me while shrieking "bush kills babies" and wearing a tie-dye shirt that smells of too many grateful dead concerts.

If I hooked with Zeta-Jones at a protest, she wouldn't be shrieking anything about Bush - I think it'd be more like "Get off my leg you bastard..you can't make it go there after you've already played Red Rocket"

Kadath · 05-15-2004, 07:15 AM

Careful about how you protest:
http://www.duluthsuperior.com/mld/du...al/8664932.htm

Quote:

Man fights citation for carrying anti-Bush sign

BY TODD RICHMOND

ASSOCIATED PRESS

A southwestern Wisconsin man is fighting a civil citation for bringing a sign that read "F U G W" with him as he watched President Bush pass through Platteville last week.

Andrea Baker, an attorney for Frank Van den Bosch of Montfort, argued in a motion filed Monday in Grant County Circuit Court that Van den Bosch's sign is clearly protected under the First Amendment right to free speech.

"It's just a creeping theocratic fascism that's moving into the land here, where dissent is unpatriotic," said Van den Bosch, 53, a member of the Southwest Peace Fellowship, a social issues group.

According to the motion, Van den Bosch was standing along a street in Platteville on May 7 with his sign waiting for Bush's motorcade to pass. Bush made campaign stops in La Crosse and Prairie du Chien that day.

Police told him he couldn't display the sign. Van den Bosch then changed the sign to say "Free Us G W" and added "End the Occupation" on the back, referring to the war in Iraq.

A few minutes later, another police officer came over and ordered Van den Bosch to surrender the sign. Van den Bosch rolled up his sign and moved to the back of the crowd. He held it up as Bush went by.

Police then handcuffed him and took him to the police station, where he was photographed, fingerprinted, cited $243 for disorderly conduct and released. Van den Bosch said he hasn't paid the fine.

Platteville Police Lt. Tom Schmid said a business owner along the street had complained about the sign, and officers thought children might see it. Van den Bosch wrote the letters "r e e" and "s" in tiny print, Schmid said.

"We had to take some action," Schmid said. "If we were wrong, then the citation will be voided and taken care of that way. That's the way the system is supposed to work."

Free speech, we hardly knew ye.

irateplatypus · 05-15-2004, 02:24 PM

yeah, be REAL careful...

if you can possibly avoid acronyms that obviously stand for curse words in a place with children... do your best. as we all know, the platteville police are just itching to abridge your constitutional rights.

Kadath · 05-15-2004, 03:19 PM

Wait, I'm sorry. "Acronyms that obviously stand for curse words" only obviously stand for those words if you ALREADY KNOW THE WORDS.

irateplatypus · 05-15-2004, 03:55 PM

sure, but that is no circumvention of the argument.

if you recognize that free speech is limited by standards of public decency, then this is simply an enforcement of those standards. the protester wasn't denied speaking his message, he was denied because he was using a method that was deemed offensive within the context of a public demonstration. if you allow for measures of enforced decency, then platteville has the authority to deny this man this way of delivering his message.

if you do not recognize that free speech has limits according to decency, then the logical extention of your argument is that all things are appropriate at all times. don't say that the most extreme cases (such as... a pornography shop next door to an elementary school) aren't applicable, because if you do you are enforcing your standards of what is publicly acceptable on someone who chooses to go farther than you would (just as this man is choosing to go farther than the platteville police would like).

so, you're forced to either accept that the police were within their right to take his sign down... or you maintain that all speech is appropriate everywhere.

if choose to not accept the first while denying the second, then you're effectively putting your measure of what is acceptable over everyone elses... something you're displaying as something negative about the situation you cited.

HarmlessRabbit · 05-15-2004, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by irateplatypus
if you recognize that free speech is limited by standards of public decency, then this is simply an enforcement of those standards. the protester wasn't denied speaking his message, he was denied because he was using a method that was deemed offensive within the context of a public demonstration. if you allow for measures of enforced decency, then platteville has the authority to deny this man this way of delivering his message.

if you do not recognize that free speech has limits according to decency, then the logical extention of your argument is that all things are appropriate at all times. don't say that the most extreme cases (such as... a pornography shop next door to an elementary school) aren't applicable, because if you do you are enforcing your standards of what is publicly acceptable on someone who chooses to go farther than you would (just as this man is choosing to go farther than the platteville police would like).

so, you're forced to either accept that the police were within their right to take his sign down... or you maintain that all speech is appropriate everywhere.

if choose to not accept the first while denying the second, then you're effectively putting your measure of what is acceptable over everyone elses... something you're displaying as something negative about the situation you cited.

My god, I can only imagine the poor grocers in jail in that city for carrying "Make 7 UP YOURS" signs in their stores. WON'T SOMEONE THINK OF THE CHILDREN.

"Community standards" is a slippery slope. Personally, I choose to err on the side of free speech, but I do agree that free speech has limits. For example, I'm all for mandatory internet filtering in libraries and schools (with the option for adults to turn it off). I'm hoping my daughter doesn't get goatse'd until she is a teenager.

And let's not forget FCUK
http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/outrage/fcuk.asp
with stores in malls with slogans like "fcuk at home", "fcuk in bed", and "fcuk him". They even have a children's line!

If the city enforces standards uniformly, fine, but if they are arresting this guy for a "F U G W" sign, and they aren't arresting Target for "FCUK" shirts, then they are stifling political speech under the guise of community standards.

irateplatypus · 05-15-2004, 05:13 PM

i don't necessarily agree completely... but certainly an intellectually honest argument.

HamiC · 05-15-2004, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by irateplatypus
if you recognize that free speech is limited by standards of public decency, then this is simply an enforcement of those standards. the protester wasn't denied speaking his message, he was denied because he was using a method that was deemed offensive within the context of a public demonstration.

Your argument (which you present quite well, by the way) is based, in part, on the assumption that offensive equals indecent . I would argue that it does not. F U G W may be offensive to some, but it is not indecent.

Your argument also makes no distinction between types of speech . Political speech, artistic expression, commercial communication, etc... have each been traditionally subject to different standards and received different levels of constitutional protection.

Political speech -- no matter how unsophisticated -- is entitled to a considerable amount of protection with the courts generally choosing to err on the side of permitting questionable material. In this instance, I do not believe F U G W rises (or falls) to the level that should be prohibited.

Memnoch · 05-16-2004, 12:51 AM

My girlfriend's father flipped off Bush's motorcade as Dubya went by. He was informed by a police officer that if he saw him do it agian, he'd be arrested for public indecency. Kind of amusing.

Yay for adding to the current discussion and bringing it back around to the original topic at hand.

05-14-2004, 10:04 AM	#1 (permalink)
Memnoch Insane Location: Land of milk and honey - Wisconsin	Dubya just down the road. I work in Mequon, WI, about two miles from the place that Bush is going to be speaking at today. I tried to go to lunch, but several roads are closed off and the rest of the roads are clogged with protestors/picketors that apparently would rather hassle me than let me eat my lunch. I don't know...I just think it's kind of silly. I don't see why any roads need to be closed off, and I don't see why people feel the need to protest against this man's appearance (because we all know how effectively peaceful protests work... ). I'm just kind of amused and annoyed. Figured I might as well share. __________________ Doing my best not to end up like Kathleen Chang.

05-15-2004, 02:24 PM	#7 (permalink)
irateplatypus can't help but laugh Location: dar al-harb	yeah, be REAL careful... if you can possibly avoid acronyms that obviously stand for curse words in a place with children... do your best. as we all know, the platteville police are just itching to abridge your constitutional rights. __________________ If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves. ~ Winston Churchill

05-15-2004, 03:19 PM	#8 (permalink)
Kadath Muffled Location: Camazotz	Wait, I'm sorry. "Acronyms that obviously stand for curse words" only obviously stand for those words if you ALREADY KNOW THE WORDS. __________________ it's quiet in here

05-15-2004, 03:55 PM	#9 (permalink)
irateplatypus can't help but laugh Location: dar al-harb	sure, but that is no circumvention of the argument. if you recognize that free speech is limited by standards of public decency, then this is simply an enforcement of those standards. the protester wasn't denied speaking his message, he was denied because he was using a method that was deemed offensive within the context of a public demonstration. if you allow for measures of enforced decency, then platteville has the authority to deny this man this way of delivering his message. if you do not recognize that free speech has limits according to decency, then the logical extention of your argument is that all things are appropriate at all times. don't say that the most extreme cases (such as... a pornography shop next door to an elementary school) aren't applicable, because if you do you are enforcing your standards of what is publicly acceptable on someone who chooses to go farther than you would (just as this man is choosing to go farther than the platteville police would like). so, you're forced to either accept that the police were within their right to take his sign down... or you maintain that all speech is appropriate everywhere. if choose to not accept the first while denying the second, then you're effectively putting your measure of what is acceptable over everyone elses... something you're displaying as something negative about the situation you cited. __________________ If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves. ~ Winston Churchill

05-15-2004, 05:13 PM	#11 (permalink)
irateplatypus can't help but laugh Location: dar al-harb	i don't necessarily agree completely... but certainly an intellectually honest argument. __________________ If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves. ~ Winston Churchill

05-14-2004, 03:53 PM	#2 (permalink)
Shades Insane	My favorite stupid protest locally was when a large mob of people decided to protest against cars, so they clogged a bunch of streets. Since they weren't cleared to do so, the cops arrested a lot of them. Then, the protesters tried to paint the cops like Nazis, even though what the protesters had done was blatantly illegal. My favorite all time stupid protest happened at my Dad's office. He once worked for a really small, like less than 10 people, oil company. One morning, the entire front side of the building was picketed by a sizable group. In fact, there were many times more people protesting than there were in the company. And what were these geniuses protesting? The big bad oil company that was drilling in some environmental place that the protesters wanted to protect. Of course, nevermind the fact that Dad's oil company was not then, nor was even planning, to drill any wells within a hundred miles of that place, but hey, don't let a little thing called "reality" get in the way of a really good protest. I mean, you might score at one.

05-14-2004, 05:16 PM	#4 (permalink)
Zeld2.0 Cherry-pickin' devil's advocate Location: Los Angeles	lol irate though i wouldn't care much if it were catherine zeta jones!

05-16-2004, 12:51 AM	#13 (permalink)
Memnoch Insane Location: Land of milk and honey - Wisconsin	My girlfriend's father flipped off Bush's motorcade as Dubya went by. He was informed by a police officer that if he saw him do it agian, he'd be arrested for public indecency. Kind of amusing. Yay for adding to the current discussion and bringing it back around to the original topic at hand. __________________ Doing my best not to end up like Kathleen Chang.