Rekna

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,119947,00.html


To start off I am a very religious person. So this is not a bashing of Catholism at all. However, I think there is a line that people in relegion should not cross. That line is where they are bulling or forcing others to their beliefs. This bishop is playing polotics with religion (something that should not be done at all). What are your thoughts?

Superbelt

The Catholic Church is trying very hard to lose their tax-exempt status.

Let's look at these intrinsically evil issues:
abortion, stem-cell research, euthanasia and gay marriage

Wow, what a coincidence, all four are party line issues between the democrats and republicans.
There are plenty of issues that the Catholic Church SHOULD be addressing as well that are party line Republican. But they won't because it seems they are just out to get the Dems.

This Church has no moral authority. I am glad that the churchs american hierarchy is against the democrats so resolutely. We don't want their support. They are after all pedofile protectors and facilitators. The church can rot.
Now, this is coming from 12 years of catholic schooling. Many things have driven me from it over the years. I don't agree with many of the teachings. Things are too archaic and backwards. The Pedofiles finally pushed me out of the church and the recent round of attacks only further strenghten and justify my choice.

Rekna

Please don't turn this into a catholic bashing thread.

ARTelevision

The church has had a long and ignoble history of political machination.

This piece from the NY Daily News, yesterday, points out one of the more self-condemnatory hypocritical statements they decided to make a clueuess point about. If the church, rich as it is, can be said to lack anything - it can be said that it lacks insight.

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N.Y. pol blasts Vatican 'hypocrisy' for Iraq abuse protest

'If there's anyone in the world who has no right to speak on sexual abuse, it's the Vatican'

THE ASSOCIATED PRESS


WASHINGTON — Catholic lawmaker Peter King ripped Church leaders as hypocrites Thursday for the Vatican’s foreign minister claim that the Iraqi prisoner abuse scandal is worse for America than the Sept. 11 attacks.

“If there’s anyone in the world who has no right to speak on sexual abuse, it’s the Vatican,” said Rep. King, an anti-abortion Republican. “This is the height of hypocrisy.”

In an interview published Wednesday in the Rome daily La Repubblica, Archbishop Giovanni Lajolo described the abuses as “a tragic episode in the relationship with Islam” and said the scandal would fuel hatred for the West and for Christianity.

“The torture? A more serious blow to the United States than Sept. 11. Except that the blow was not inflicted by terrorists but by Americans against themselves,” Lajolo was quoted as saying.

Disturbing photographs of Iraqi prisoners being abused and sexually humiliated by American military at the Abu Ghraib prison have stunned the world, and prompted some Democrats to call for Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld to resign or be fired.

King said the Catholic Church should be the last group to claim moral high ground on issues of sexual abuse, given the past several years of revelations about priests abusing children for years while church officials failed to stop such behavior.

“Whatever the United States has done to prisoners in Iraq is nothing compared to what priests and nuns did to Catholic kids for decades while the Catholic hierarchy covered it up,” King said.

“Think of the thousands of kids in the U.S. and Ireland who were abused by priests and nuns — you wonder where the Vatican’s moral compass is.”

King argued the U.S. military’s investigation into the prison abuses show America has responded admirably to the abuse problem. In contrast, the church has not done enough to fix its own problems or apologize for them, he said.

William Donohue, president of the Catholic League, said the archbishop’s statements show anti-American sentiment within the Vatican.

“This man is an absolute embarrassment to the Catholic Church. I read that and I was just boiling over,” said Donohue.

Donohue said he disagreed with King’s contention that the church should not speak out about abuse issues, but called the archbishop’s comparison of the abuse scandal to Sept. 11 “singularly irresponsible, insulting, and anti-American.”

Originally published on May 13, 2004

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ARTelevision

The church take political stands - to take stands in opposition to it is not, in itself, "bashing" it. It is a powerful manipulator of minds. To be in silent deference to it is not in the service of a full airing of the effects - both for good and ill - that it has in the world. When it takes political stands, it enters the realm of political speech.

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Superbelt

Sorry Rekna, but as my new favorite saying goes, when the facts are anti-catholic, what do you want me to say?

It's a fact that the american hierarchy is rotten. I pick my words carefully. The average catholic is a good person and there is plenty of good in the individual churches. It's those who are in charge that pushed me away. I know plenty of priests from my days as a catholic who are good men and didn't deserve the evil that was the shroud of suspicion after the pedofile scandals.
Now we have the same type of asses cherrypicking issues to use against the democrats. And it's blatantly obvious. This Bishop doesn't mention another divisive issue, for example. The pope has, since the beginning, condemnded the Iraq war. Why are war supporters still permitted communion but something as simple as gay marriage is worthy of hell?

Sparhawk

A disgusting, cynical act to further "guilt-trip" the thousands of good catholics in Colorado (a potential 2004 swing state, surprise surprise). As if catholics need more guilt in their lives, what an ass.

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OFKU0

As a former catholic ( now areligious) I would suggest the church remain strongly entrenched in what it does best, that is preaching the bible and it's merits for those who choose to believe.

To suggest people not receive communion because they may have a differing view of the church regarding certain issues is intolerant and insulting. Given the history of the Catholic church amidst it's archaic 16th century beliefs, I don't think they should be in the business of telling anyone what to think, morally or otherwise.

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djtestudo

Amusingly enough, I've heard in the past that Catholics tend to be more liberal then other Christians.

My question is, how do they KNOW who voted what way?

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Averett

This is the most insane thing I've heard of in awhile.

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Frowning Budah

I think if Government has to stay out Religion, Religion should stay out of politics. It does not seem right they can have it both ways.
Regarding the Catholic Churches position on denying communion because of political opinions, I chose a church that does not believe in blind obedience to their dogma. I am not a catholic.

MSD

This doesn't mean jack shit unless proclaimed in an Ex Cathedra statement by the Pope (I forget, maybe a high-up cardinal can do it.) However, the more I hear from church officials, the more I step back from my brainwashing as a child.

edwhit

I agree that the church should stay out of it.

I believe in seperation of church and state strongly and it goes both ways.

tecoyah

I find it quite interesting (read hypocritical) that the catholic church feels inclined to continue attempting political influence. It reminds me of the Pope speaking out on Sexual morality, in light of the ongoing priest scandal. I would laugh, if I was not so disturbed. Guess they are trying to take advantage of the administrations tendancy to blur the seperation, and gain whatever power they can, as they always have.

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pig

I've always found separation of Church and State to be interesting. On one hand, as someone who considers myself spriritual but not religious, I'm fully in support of the separation. However, if I were a Christian and I truly believed that the Church was not primarily a a political entity but a spiritual embodiment of Christ and God and all that, then I don't think I could do separation. It's always seemed like telling someone to believe in the Church, but just not too much. Like telling them to switch to Christ-lite. So I suppose that while I don't like this idea, it doesn't really suprise me, and I don't really see how someone who believed whatever the recent interpretation of Church law happens to be could be expected to behave any differently.

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SecretMethod70

Honor system. In other words, they don't. And as far as OFFICIAL church policy, Catholicism does tend to be more liberal than other Christian religions. That doesn't mean everyone in the church is going to be that way though.

Precisely. This is not a matter of Catholic faith. This is not in the Catholic Catechism at all AFAIK. And, only the pope can make ex cathedra statements. Many things are left to the discretion of the bishop running the diocese. So, this one Bishop can make this statement, and that's a reflection of how he would like his diocese to be run, but it's not representative of the Catholic Church's opinion as a whole by any means. And, there's no way for him to know anyway.

So, what it comes down to really, is that this Bishop is a moron regarding this particular thing, but his methods are not representative of the church.

As a side note, pigglet brings up something that I've always thought about. I don't believe in the church actively denying someone communion - it doesn't really fit with the message of Christianity - but I do find it interesting how so many people cry foul at Church's giving voting advice based on the beliefs of the religion.

Theoretically, if people are going to church, they subscribe to the beliefs of that church, and I see nothing wrong with a church saying "it is a sin to vote for this person because you're aiding the killing of an unborn child" if that's what they believe. It's up to the person voting to vote as they please, but the church has a right to inform the person that voting a particular way would be sinful according the the church's beliefs.

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edwhit

The pope has attempted to influence politics for all of pope history. The pope telling people how things should be done is nothing new.

SecretMethod70

While this is true - and, frankly, I don't see anything wrong with it - I'm not sure how it fits into this thread. We're not talking about the pope here, or even the Catholic Church as a whole. This is just some random Bishop over in Denver.

Either way, the pope saying the "Catholic way to vote" would be a particular way is not as big a deal to me as it seems to be to others. It's no different than the head of the ACLU or the NRA saying voting for a particular candidate goes against their ideals. I still have the choice to vote however I please and they'll never know which way I voted. They're simply addressing the people who *claim* to adhere to certain ideals and explaining, as leaders of these movements, how to apply those ideals to their voting.

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ARTelevision

Good points, SecretMethod70 - and I do see your point.
I'm sometimes carried away by anti-religious zeal. That's my personal issue though - might as well be honest about it.

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pocon1

I hear you secretmethod, but this bishop is saying you cannot be saved unless you vote the right way. The church believes that it holds the keys to heaven. Communion is that key. Do not vote the wrong way, or no ticket for you. It is not a question of them knowing your voting record. According to them, you are lying to the church and sinning if you vote against them.

theusername

Are Catholics who believe this bullshit blind? The teachings of the church use to say get rid of infidels and you will be rewarded or pay money to get to heaven and clear your sins. Why cant people see through the Church's web of lies that it continues to tell to scare its members?

SecretMethod70

Actually that's not true. The *official* teaching of the Catholic church is that the sacraments are not necessary for salvation, nor is being Christian - they're just considered the easiest ways. Of course, that's also a very recent teaching relatively speaking (the past 50 years) so it's not widely accepted yet. It takes time for ways of thought to change in one of the world's largest religions.

Don't get me wrong, I don't agree with this Bishop - I think, as a Catholic, that withholding communion from someone goes against the core of what Catholicism means - but any person who isn't already a sheep in the first place and, thus, actually knows what their religion officially stands for knows that what this Bishop says is inconsequential.

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"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling