filtherton

In the spirit of the "Beheading or nude pyramid thread"...

Whilst we all love to label our country's current enemies cowards and savages, i must ask. Is it more courageous to drop a bomb from high in the atmosphere or to pay the ultimate sacrifice to deliver the payload? The point is that while we all sit safely tucked in a whole hemisphere away from any real armed iraqi conflict, we pretend to know who the cowards are and who the heroes are. I claim that the real cowards in any war are those who scream for a war that they themselves are unwilling to fight.

It is possible to divide a prowar opinion into two different perspectives: Those who believe something needs to be done so much that they will die for it and those who believe something needs to be done just enough that they think their countrymen should die for it. As far as i'm concerned, those in the latter camp have no right to question the courage of those in the former camp, regardless of which side they may be on.

irateplatypus

all things being equal (both in a war, same target etc.) i would say the hand-delivery would require more courage. (taking what i think your definition of courage is in this context)

the sticking point is that bombs dropped from on high are done in marked aircraft by pilots wearing uniforms against a target of military value.

those who strap bombs to their back often do so in restaurants, buses, discoes and anywhere else were there is a concentration of people. the airplanes on 9-11 were directed against targets filled with civilians with no military value (with exception the pentagon.)

if you take their usual application out of context, then yeah... it does seem like it takes more courage. but, the application of those two tactics as we've witnessed so far in history changes that. someone who climbs on a commuter bus for the purpose of murduring as many unsuspecting people as possible does not qualify for any degree of courage in my book.

put me in the former category. my money (and life, and future) is exactly where my mouth is.

__________________
If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.

~ Winston Churchill

yournamehere

The suicide bombers believe that their actions will gain them a seat in eternal paradise. Their families back here on earth are paid relatively handsomely for the crimes they commited.

To kill innocents for selfish gain and monetary compensation is pretty cowardly, if you ask me.

And anyone who says they are courageous to die for their cause, I call bullshit - they're running from a shitty, 7th century existence straight to what they believe is eternal Easy Street. Their only "cause" is to leave behind a rich family while running to their 70 virgins.

__________________
If you want to avoid 95% of internet spelling errors:
"If your ridiculous pants are too loose, you're definitely going to lose them. Tell your two loser friends over there that they're going to lose theirs, too."
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Sparhawk

I think the individual act of suicide bombing is more courageous, but, put together with the months of intensive brainwashing, plus those actually responsible hiding in the shadows training these young men (and sometimes women), and never showing their faces in true combat - that totality, that is the height of cowardice.

I agree with your last paragraph.

__________________
"In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work. It's incredibly hard. It's - and it's hard work. I understand how hard it is. I get the casualty reports every day. I see on the TV screens how hard it is. But it's necessary work. We're making progress. It is hard work."

HarmlessRabbit

I don't see how this is any different than Christianity. But I think all religious fundies are pretty wacko.

irateplatypus

i'm not sure i agree with yournamehere's assessment but...

it wouldn't be any different if there were christians strapping bombs packed with shrapnel to themselves and their children, then trying to murder as many people of a particular ethnic group or nationality as possible.

but, thankfully... they're not

__________________
If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.

~ Winston Churchill

MSD

While it may take more courage to strap on a bomb and blow yourself up, I would say that it is more honorable to deliver an airstrike to a military target and cause collateral damage to civilians than to willingly detonate an explosive belt when you know with absolute certainty that civilians will die, or are the primary target.

filtherton

Disturbing, yes. Cowardly? I don't really see how you could call anyone who is willing to strap a bomb to their body and detonate it to prove a point a coward. That takes a bootyload of conviction.

I see your point on the whole death is payment for eternal bliss deal, though. Maybe courageous isn't the right word, maybe the phrase "extremely faithful" would be more accurate. Every religion has 'em too.

I agree with sparhawk (imagine that) that the cowardice shown by the shadowy bosses is just a tad bit disgusting. Another case of people committed just enough to send other people to die for their cause. I'd also like to point out that america also has its deceptive bosses who are only too happy to sacrifice the lives of others at the altar of the american cause.

Asuka{eve}

I just think it is a tragedy that one feels that he must do such things.

filtherton

If i had a nickel for every tragedy i could point out my current financial state of affairs wouldn't be such a tragedy.

gondath

Suicide by any means takes a lot of courage. The promise of an afterlife filled with virgins and whatnot is intangible at best. These men have never felt the touch of paradise, have never seen anything like it here on earth. Maybe the hell they live in is what really gives them conviction.

I think social support has more to do with it. As long as people have a solid foundation of others to agree with them on what is right and what needs to be done, they're pretty much capable of anything. Our soldiers are no exeption. Look how they respond in wars when the public is against them.

seretogis

Suicide does not take courage at all -- it is the ultimate display of cowardice. Those who consider suicide and back out are actually more brave than those who go through with it -- they run the risk of living their lives. This would perhaps be better discussed on the philosophy board, but I fail to see how suicide in any fashion could be deemed heroic or courageous. Successful suicide causes death 100% of the time, where is the courage and risk in that?

I think that for us to try to understand thw lower-class-Arab's way of life is incredibly difficult. We are so spoiled by our luxuries that strapping a bomb to ourselves and blowing ourselves up in a crowded bus / school / cafe seems so unusual that we think it must have some deeper purpose or meaning. In fact, it doesn't -- those who are enlisted to become suicide bombers are victimized by their social and fanatical religious leaders and essentially brainwashed. I pity them, and the innocents that they slaughter without reason or forethought. They are tools of their "cult" leaders -- a disgustingly savage means to an end.

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seretogis - sieg heil
perfect little dream the kind that hurts the most, forgot how it feels well almost
no one to blame always the same, open my eyes wake up in flames

yournamehere

It's not so much about being religious as it is about being selfish.
As a matter of fact, the more faith you have, the less courage you need.

Take away the islamic context - substitute "The rest of your life" for "eternity", "Penthouse suite at the Honolulu Ritz Carlton" for "paradise," and "Nightly threesomes with hot strippers" for "70 virgins," and you get my meaning - that's the motive. It has nothing to do with courage, IMO.

__________________
If you want to avoid 95% of internet spelling errors:
"If your ridiculous pants are too loose, you're definitely going to lose them. Tell your two loser friends over there that they're going to lose theirs, too."
It won't hurt your fashion sense, either.

OFKU0

I think suicide bombers have "reason and forethough" which is why they continue to terrorize innocents. It has proven to be an effective tool to garner international attention.

I know the media religiously states these people are brainwashed, but I think that is a generalized overused buzzword. I think more appropriately, these people are products of their environment which unfortunately has devolved a segment of their culture over time. I think to brainwash insists that a mindset has been altered. The mindset of these people has not been altered, but rather reinforced since birth to take them down the path of destruction. Otherwise we would label them as psychotic.

__________________
" In Canada, you can tell the most blatant lie in a calm voice, and people will believe you over someone who's a little passionate about the truth." David Warren, Western Standard.

tecoyah

In my opinion, it takes far more courage, real courage, to go up against the politics of violence. The courageous approach would be actually attempting to end the endless retribution, by working towards peace.
Why does this take courage?

Whoever would attempt this will suffer the wrath of numerous political parties, and a large number of the population on both sides. They would be a target for assaination, and would suffer undue stress on a daily basis because of the complexities this would entail. You want courage, show it in personal actions. Sending an aircraft full of people you dont know(or care about) to blast something into oblivion, is far from courageous. Strapping a bomb onto your body, and blowing yourself and others into smouldering ashes, is not courageous, it is fanatical.
Courage (in my opinion) is the ability to see what is best for all in a situation, and to act on it regardless of personal danger, or fears.

Courage is rare, violence is common.

__________________
Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

Rekna

You can't really compair the US bombings to sucide bombings. The US aims for military targets. The sucide bombers aim for large groups of civilians. Now if the US were to drop a bomb on a large assembly of people aiming for as many deaths of civilians as possible then you would have a fair comparison.

seretogis

I don't think the bombers themselves consider the "big picture" when it comes to their attacks, though their leaders do. I think they genuinely see it as a means to paradise and religious freedom. My intent isn't to justify the acts, just shift the blame to where it belongs most -- the leadership of these organizations that sponsor the wholesale slaughter of innocents.

Buzzword or not, it is forceable coersion propogated by a hate-spewing education system and terrorist-funded religious organizations. I agree that given a different environment, or at the very least a more objective schooling, I think that these people would turn out to not be suicide bombers. Killing terrorist leaders alone isn't going to do anything until the schools are cleaned up.

__________________
seretogis - sieg heil
perfect little dream the kind that hurts the most, forgot how it feels well almost
no one to blame always the same, open my eyes wake up in flames

filtherton

Except that there are suicide bombers in iraq who are focusing on military/occupational targets. Not every suicide bomber is out purely to kill innocents.

OFKU0

Fair enough. I think we're on the same page.

And I think the only people in the world that can change the attitudes of these people, as cliched as it sounds, is for them to change themselves. Until then, nothing will change, unfortunately mostly for them.

__________________
" In Canada, you can tell the most blatant lie in a calm voice, and people will believe you over someone who's a little passionate about the truth." David Warren, Western Standard.

gondath

I love how all these people who are willing to commit suicide bombings for their faith are considered brainwashed cowards. Yet the people in our country who choose to go to war are never considered mislead or indocrinated, nor are the religious here for the most part. It's the worst kind of hypocrisy that no matter what your enemy does, you refuse to acknowledge any part of him in you and label every single one of his actions as cowardly.

Humans are intent on survival. If you don't believe me, then try and kill yourself right now. What? You mean you can't? I thought it was harder to live than to die? It sounds like a cop out to me. If suicide is so easy, then why do so many people fail? I think it's another way for society to label you as weak and unproductive, as strength and usefulness seem to be the only measure of a person these days. I included all suicides in here because a distinction wasn't really made between people who kill themselves in an attack and people who do it alone.

Fred181

An interesting point however you forget that the people that CHOOSE to go to war in our country are not the ones dropping the bombs and carrying the guns. The people (person) that chose to go to war is sleeping in his own bed at night far from the fighting. I assure you that only a small percentage of the soldiers, sailors and airmen in the middle east right now are there because they want to be. Were they brainwashed or indoctrinated none the less? Only with the same ideas that other flag waving, patriotic americans have.

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My heart will be restless until it finds its final rest. Then they can weigh it...

BigGov

No thanks. I could easily kill myself right now, but I do not wish to listen to someone on the internet telling me to. There is no incentive for me to kill myself, no monetary compensation for my family, hell the news probably wouldn't even reach the TFP saying that I killed myself just to spite you. It's very easy to kill yourself, overdose on drugs, shoot yourself with a firearm, hang yourself, drown yourself by attaching a heavy object and jumping into deep water, jump off a cliff, or strap some fireworks to your body and run into a bon fire.

Because many people do it because they are mentally ill or do so for attention. The biggest reason? They are found after they overdosed, or slit their wrists, or some in some such form, and they are revived by family, friends, or paramedics.

__________________
One day an Englishman, a Scotsman, and an Irishman walked into a pub together. They each bought a pint of Guinness. Just as they were about to enjoy their creamy beverage, three flies landed in each of their pints. The Englishman pushed his beer away in disgust. The Scotsman fished the fly out of his beer and continued drinking it, as if nothing had happened. The Irishman, too, picked the fly out of his drink but then held it out over the beer and yelled "SPIT IT OUT, SPIT IT OUT, YOU BASTARD!"

gondath

Actually there is a web service that notifies internet associations of your demise now, but that's besides the point. I wasn't really inviting anyone to kill thmselves. I think the point was made that you can't just decide to kill yourself at any moment. You have to overcome your fear first. Failing a suicide attempt is sometimes planned but more often its because only very destructive and grisly means to kill yourself is a sure thing. Strapping a bomb to your chest is pretty much a sure thing, but that doesn't mean it won't hurt and erase you from this earth forever.