Zeld2.0

Only problem we have right now is sort of - how can we finish it. We've got to solve that but right now we're somewhat checkmated.

denim

I don't see how you can say this with a straight face.

Please explain.

denim

Well said.

denim

We can't use it as a shield 'cause we violated it. Stipulated.

WRT torture being wrong no matter what, what do you define as torture? I'd say that matters. I consider watching network television to be torture, for instance. It's definitely wrong!

denim

You're saying Berg was Jewish?

onetime2

According to his father he was.

__________________
Strive to be more curious than ignorant.

denim

Er, we've been at war with these people since 1991. Given that Hussein violated the truce for several years, we were very justified in going back in there and kicking his ass. No WMD excuses were necessary.

denim

Wonderful. Now I have another reason to wish those assholes who murdered him extreme ill. That's a mild understatement, BTW.

cameroncrazy822

Absolutely, this is a ridiculous comparison and a weak retort to opposition to the treatment the Iraqi's received. What happened to the Iraqi's is terrible but the bruatl murder of the correspondant is reprehensible and idefencible.

omid

Bingo.

__________________
Kick butt buzz-cut dickheads who didn't like what I said.
The good times are killing me.
Jaws clenching tight we talked all night, oh but what the hell did we say?
The good times are killing me.

Amethyst

I think that the beheading is worse than the nude pyramids any day. And if you had to think hard about that question.......well I don't know what to tell you. I am in agreement with almost everything that edwhit said in his post.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by edwhit
[B]What a few americans did to a few iraqi's in prison was terrible. The prisoners may have been innocent. It is doubful, but almost always possible.

Berg was innocent. Everyone knows he was innocent (except some conspiracy theory freaks). They did not care that he was innocent. They just wanted to punish america. But I do not believe for a second that he was killed because of the abuse news.

The murderers were not exactly the common iraqi citizen. They are terrorists. Terrorists kill innocent people all the time. What I DO believe is that the abuse stirred up enough people that they decided it was a convenient time to Slay him in the hopes of further turning people against the US.

I have talked to a friend that was raped and she feels it would not be better to be killed than tortured (thinking mainly of the rape part) Her thinking was that people don't always survive rape. Many people are psychologically ruined for life often taking their families with them. That is (or can be for some) a living death. She feels they are equally bad.

My thinking is that one has a chance to survive torture. One has NO chance to survive death.

What does it matter? This whole topic matters to me because I see Americans turning on our government and blaming our government for the beheading of an innocent man (who was trying to help innocent people). While the ripple effect often causes unfortunate events, it is not always the best logic.

In a perfect world we should all obey the laws perfectly. If I was alone in a room with someone that killed my best friend and raped a little girl I should give that person the same rights as an innocent man unjustly held in prison. However, if the opportunity came I would be hard pressed NOT to beat the crap out of him at the very least. It is wrong. I know.

Now wait a minute! I know, they were probably not all guilty of those crimes. I'm sure they just jay walked or something. As a responsible nation, we should NOT have raped any prisoners or sexually abused them. We should not have threatened to have them electrecuted or had our dogs bite them. Those guards did countless things they should not have done I'm sure.

But come on now. Throwing cold water on them? WHO CARES! Depriving them of sleep? I'm depriving myself of sleep right now. Some of those "abuses" are just pathetic. We are in the middle of a war. Get over it! Punish the bad guys no matter who they are and move on!

We admit our faults. Did the terrorists?

Amethyst

Originally posted by gondath

The Geneva Convention is not a valid shield for the USA to hide behind, whether it was followed to the letter or not. Americans have already proven they don't have to follow any international laws when they don't feel like it.

I just wonder if the Iraqis followed the Geneva Convention when they captured Jessica Lynch and the other Americans that were POWS? Just because we were stupid and toke pictures of the things that we had done. One of our citizens should be beheaded? These people in the prisons are prisoners and should be treated as such. And if having them form a nude pyramid is going to get information about WMD or info about terrorists I say do whatever it takes.

jb2000

We often hear the simple idea put forward when talking about Iraq that what we are doing is better than Hussein.

My question is this: Why are we using a vile dictator like Saddam as a moral guidepost for our own actions?

Is a murdering rapist better than Jeffrey Dahmer because he doesn't prey on children or dine on them afterwards?

Not to say that we are either of them, but why are we so busy comparing ourselves to the worst of the worst.

I would prefer to think that my fine nation is incomparable to the Hussein regime. Unfortunately I am being bombarded with reminders that isn't the case.

I am very disappointed.

__________________
"Don't tell me we're so blind we cannot see that this is my land! I can't pretend that it's nothing to do with me.
And this is your land, you can't close your eyes to this hypocracy.
Yes this is my land, I won't pretend that it's nothing to do with me.
'Cause this is our land, we can't close our eyes to the things we don't wanna see."

- DTH

smooth

Why do you wonder? Jessica said so herself when she came out and corrected both the pentagon's and media's portrayal of what occurred.

__________________
"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann

"You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman

Amethyst

I haven't read the entire Geneva Convention, but is rape allowed?

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/...06-lynch_x.htm


Lynch book tells of rape by captors
By Rick Hampson, USA TODAY
PALESTINE, W.Va. — Jessica Lynch, the former prisoner of war whose rescue made her the most famous GI in the Iraq war, was raped by her captors, according to her authorized biography.

Rick Bragg's book also casts doubts on the claim of an Iraqi lawyer who says he helped rescue the soldier.
Glamour Magazine handout

But the book, which will be released Tuesday, says Lynch has no memory of being sexually assaulted, and she appreciates her treatment in an Iraqi hospital after her vehicle crashed during an Iraqi ambush.

In the book, author Rick Bragg writes that scars on Lynch's body and medical records indicate she was sodomized, but that Lynch recalls nothing: "Jessi lost three hours. She lost them in the snapping bones, in the crash of the Humvee, in the torment her enemies inflicted on her after she was pulled from it."

smooth

No, rape is not allowed by the Geneva convention.

--http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=17229

But, as I replied in your PM, this is old news and I don't see much point in rehashing things Jessica Lynch has denied ever occured in personal interviews.

The people in these "prisons" haven't been convicted of anything and shouldn't be treated like prisoners. Even if they deserved to be treated as prisoners, we don't subject our prisoners to death by snake bites, broom stick rapings, and electroction for information.

__________________
"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann

"You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman

analog

This has been good so far, don't let it derail off-topic into old, irrelevant news about Lynch.

jb2000

Pointing at how badly others have acted is no justification for our own behaviour.

It is however evidence that we aren't as different from those we compare ourselves to as we might once have thought.

__________________
"Don't tell me we're so blind we cannot see that this is my land! I can't pretend that it's nothing to do with me.
And this is your land, you can't close your eyes to this hypocracy.
Yes this is my land, I won't pretend that it's nothing to do with me.
'Cause this is our land, we can't close our eyes to the things we don't wanna see."

- DTH

jbuffett

Proud of our new US motto,

Our evil isn't as bad as their evil.

Wake up people.

__________________
I do blame you for voting for Bush.

denim

That's not new. This is a world of greys, not black-and-white. We're not perfect. We're just saying that our imperfection is lesser than theirs.

tecoyah

*head in hands* I weep for what was once a proud country, of civilized, and compassionate people. If this is truly what we have become, America is destroying itself.

__________________
Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

Zeld2.0

I still don't get it - why are we comparing ourselves to the lowest?

It gives no justification either way you put it - since when did our own people justify our actions by comparing us to the worst of human society?

denim

And you are commenting to... what, exactly?

Why should we be compassionate of people whose stated goal is to kill every last one of us? What bothers me is that there are a lot of soft-headed people in this country who are so far out of touch with reality that they refuse to recognise that some people really are evil.

llama8

I'm just confused how these people are ALL guilty. I don't believe that all (if any?) have been charged with criminal offences. So who has the right to act as jury, judge and executioner? They might be nasty people but still everyone has a right to a fair trial where they are innocent until proven guilty. I think this is especially important when you are trying to form a new democracy, it hardly installs confidence.

denim

All the people trying to kill us are guilty by definition. What's hard to understand about that?

llama8

How do YOU know who was guilty? Do you have evidence of it happening? All you know is what the media is telling you.

You may have formed your opinion and that's fine but just remember that nothing isquite so clear cut.

Putting people into groups they appear to be in just because they were in the 'vicinity' of someone else who is guilty is not the same as a rigorous trial. In the trial all sides have rights as opposed to a one-sided beating from your accuser which means you eventually admit 'everything' out of shear terror.

HarmlessRabbit

Yes. In the USA and in Iraq.

Your argument that everyone in that prison who was tortured was guilty, and therefore deserved to be tortured, is sad on several levels. It's really disappointing to me that (i'm assuming) a USA citizen wouldn't see the problem here.

Many of the people in the prison were just rounded up during sweeps. The USA let hundreds go last week. They are letting hundreds go again this week.

Not everyone in prison is guilty, even in the USA. There are many cases of people being executed for crimes they did not commit.

In any even, even if people are criminals, they should not be tortured. Everyone is entitled to due process and freedom from torture, and the USA has signed international agreements to this effect.

denim

Er, excuse me, but where did I say or imply that?

denim

I don't, and I didn't suggest that I did. I said what I said, and nothing more. Read what's there. I said nothing about people in prisons, nor anything about torture.

tecoyah

If the "reality" you claim I am out of touch with, is indeed the one you seem to portray, I will be perfectly content to dwell in my little fantasyland. Should I ever accept the blatant hatred, and disregard for human life you condone, I will no longer feel the need to interact with society.
You are welcome to your opinion, your reality if you will. Fortunately it is still in the minority and has yet to become the standard belief in this country. You would probably get along quite well with the very people you fear, you have a militant mentality, and that is a pity.

__________________
Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

G5_Todd

i love when people think we attacked some innocent country......



its Iraq...not Canada....

Zeld2.0

/shrug despite all the twisting and all...

My question still stands - why do we compare ourselves to Saddam lately? "Its better than Saddam" - well of course we *should* be better than everyone but to start using Saddam as our best comparison?

Uhh where has our country gone...

HarmlessRabbit

Agreed, and well said.

denim

I didn't say anything about you. If anything, you've included yourself in the group I mentioned by your assumption of what I was saying. It's not all about you, dude.

(edit) The reality I described is the one these people are coming from. If you don't understand that, you don't know what you're talking about. Get educated before posting again on this topic.

denim

Note that I'm not a person who said that embarassing people is as bad as cutting their heads off.

Zeld2.0

Welp this thread sure went down fast...

Keep it in check or its gone.

HarmlessRabbit

Denim, perhaps you could lay out your opinion specifically about torture, Iraq, and "evil". I'm quite unclear whether you want to kill everyone in Iraq for guilt-by- association or not.

denim

Well, let's start with what I've said already.

1) Two cultures are not equivalent.
2) We violated the Geneva Convention.
3) I'm not happy with people who behead others, especially Jews, being one myself.
4) We're not perfect. We are, however less imperfect than certain others.
5) Some people really are evil.
6) People trying to kill us are guilty. I said nothing about the rest.
7) Softheaded people don't realize to stop bending over when they start getting fucked up the ass.

What's unclear?

denim

OTOH, if the Highlander beheads an Immortal, that's okay.

(edit) Unless it's Richie. That's over the line.

HarmlessRabbit

Nothing. It's quite clear that you want to insult people who disagree with you, not have an honest discussion.