I'm going to be ill... Nick Berg video
 

I'm not going topost a link to it but it can be found anywhere on the web. I seriously feel nauseous after watching it.

My absolute deepest sympathies to the family. They must be tormented.

:( :( :(

Give us linky

You can download it at www.ogrish.com or at www.goregasm.com

It is very disturbing and graphic though.

ugh there goes my dinner

umm... i'm pretty sure my school's net access is going to block both those sites. but man, it made me nauseous just reading about it earlier.

Totally abhorent. Good God, what fucking kind of world are we living in. How fucking sad.

Thank god he wasn't humiliated
/sarcasm

i honestly can't say i'm against this. i am truly saddened and angered that it was an american non-combatant...

... but, this is a war. we may not want it - i am almost entirely against bush's policy when it comes to the iraqi situation - but the groups of rebels and hussein-loyalists certainly also see it as a war. and, sad though it may be, they are doing everything in their means to win this war; this, of course, includes attempts to destroy morale. i'd say this video is a good representation of something that is effective in this regard.

*EDIT*: yay for spelling

why not be saddened that this was anybody at all?

ok
it's taken me a while to absorb this

and it sickens me to no end.

seriously sickening.

Enough that would make someone as anti-war as me just throw up my hands and say, "Fuckit, bomb them all" I dont' mean it, but after seeing that, i'm disgusted enough to think it and to think the world would be better off if it happened...

Then the more rational side comes out and admits that it's only an isolated group, it's a terrible act, etc.

However, i don't have a clue what they were thinking. America has a history of going slightly ballistic when we have something sickening happening to our citizens. The alamo, french/indian wars, revolutionary war, civil war, etc show just how vicious Americans can be when set on a path of revenge and i can honestly see this whole situation spiraling out of control quickly. They may see it as a way of destroying morale, but that may strengthen the resolve of america.

Damn, that made me sick.

I just saw the video as well. (Hi, btw, Im Mr. Lurker)

I too am sicked, enraged, and appaled. I have no words for what I just saw.


I wouldnt weep if they (those responcible) were forced to eat glass until they die.

No, the sick fucks who are being connected to Al-Zarqawi are the murderers.

you forgot the /flamebait tag

Doesn't make much sense does it? I agree with irateplatypus, what does it matter if he was a combatant or not. No one deserves to die by beheading. (or for that matter any method of death.)
It's easy for me to say it, 'cuz I'm not there, but revenge killings just beget more revenge killings. Surely someone on both sides is aware of that?

Im not trying to start a flame war or what not, trust me, but he would have been alive today if bush had not invaded Iraq. Oh dont forget about the 25000+ iraqi civilians also.

Well actually by all accounts 25,000 Iraqi deaths is a slow year, if Saddam were still in power we could have expected more.

Of course everyone likes to blame Bush for the war. Dont get me wrong, Bush wont get my vote at election time, buts its because of the "homeland security" BS that hes brought about, not the war. Everyone seems to forget that the responsibility for this war rests in the hands of one man.. and it wasnt Bush. It was Saddam. All he had to do was let the weapons inspectors go where they wanted to go. If that had happened we wouldnt have had to follow through with the threats that were made ten or so years ago after the gulf war. Thats it.. he just had to let the weapons inspectors do their thing. Then we wouldnt have had to rely on shaky intellegence to discover wether he had WMD or not.

This statement is, for lack of a better term, idiotic. There is absolutely no way that you can know what would have happened to him if Bush had not invaded Iraq. Repeated baseless claims like this are what lead a thread to be locked.

Great way for all of you to start another thread to be locked... chill y'all

And anyways, there's enough baseless statements with no evidence (statistics and facts please on numbers? probably won't find em though!) anyways /sigh

Whoaaaa Nelly.

Opinion:noun: unproven but probale belief; 2 what one thinks of something (American Century Dictionary)

Some of you vets are giving this rookie a needless hard time.

His original post was not flame-bait or anything else.

He GAVE his opinion, he typed "in my opinion", he didn't try to start anything, he was simply stating what he felt.

It's a sad commentary on us as a society when we cannot allow a man to give his opinion, right or wrong, based on fact or fiction. It shows me we are so eager to fight we don't care about people's opinions anymore. That we need to jump on someone with a differing opinion because having their belief they pose a threat to us.

We need rookies on this board to keep it alive and flowing with new OPINION and discussions or else we face a stale and stagnant death.

In my opinion, you guys are jumping just to jump on someone. He meant nothing by it, and just expressed his point of view in a harmless way.

It is those who chose to see it as flame bait and pursue and then read into his replies what you chose to.

To be able to post your harmless opinion (as he did) is what we have men and women over there dying for. It was not racist, it attacked noone, on this board, and it is an opinion shared by many here, that feel they can no longer voice an opinion because people then choose to fight and cry and call foul a harmless belief.

Stop being so sensitive. And to be honest I know now I will be attacked as a flamer, which is sad because my intent was only to allow a man his freedom of harmless opinion.

/applaud pan6467

if the guy's not out there trolling or flaming others and wants to express his opinion, let him be if you hate it or like it

for most of us this is America where everyone can speak... take this board the same way as one can in America also for those citizens...

don't say love it or leave it, say love it all or don't love it at all (provided they're not out there to personally attack or whatever)

i'm not trying to pick a fight w/ya pan...

but what is flamebait if it isn't an opinion w/out foundation? the fact that it was his opinion doesn't exclude itself from being flame material imho.

to end a short post with describing the President of the United States as the man who murdured this guy is a radical thing to say no matter which way you stand on the iraqi war. the abscence of supporting premises, the follow-up with an unsubstantiated claim of the US being responsible for 25,000+ innocent iraqi dead, and the short, shrill nature of the tone in which i read... it was clear to me that it was flame material.

my apologies to the new guy (or girl, i have no idea) if i'm out of line.

well irateplatypus...

There are certainly people out in the world who are going to say opinions w/o foundations... but that's true on every side you look at it. It's just that, at times, people are going to overlook those who have a similar position with theirs, and are going to be annoyed at those take the opposite.

It's happened a lot to me and certainly when people post something that has little truth in it or is speculation or even if it simply irritates me, I'm going to get vocal (or sarcastic) at it.

Yes there are people who are going to think POTUS was the cause of this (and i can see their logic at times, others I can't) but on the flipside there are those who think liberals are the reason America is going down (at times i can see their thinking, other times I can't)

well said pan6467.

This whole conflict is wearing down my outlook on humanity.

yeah, but i'm not sure why that disqualifies it from being a flame.

i guess if you agree that it was unfounded within the context of his posts and still don't consider it flame... then we must have different definitions or threshholds for these kind of things.

oh well... sorry for the mini-threadjack and sarcasm. carry on fellas... :p

to be honest i've seen a lot of it online anyways so maybe thats what skews my thinking a bit

but on the other hand /shrug i've seen it a lot on here as well

cut the guy some slack ;)

You say it is a radical thing to say, but would this man have been beheaded by these losers had it not been for Bush?? Do you want me to list sources for the 25000+ dead in iraq?? Would that make it less of flame bait?

I think you want this to turn into a flamewar just for the hell of it.

Dont waste your breath, they will not listen. Also, im not that much of a rookie, ive been registered since Nov :)

you have several unspoken premises in this statement that i disagree with. the most notable is this...

i could just as easily say that this man was beheaded by the terrorists who attacked us on 9-11. if 9-11 had never happened... the chances of the administration choosing to attack iraq/afghanistan or hop in bed w/pakistan are severely diminished.

how far do you want to go back? for my own analysis... i'll just stick with the theory that this man wouldn't have been beheaded if the guys who did it weren't sick bastards who chose to kidnap a civilian and decapitate him.

please. and yes it would. keep in mind that you're on a hunt for 25,000+ iraqi civilian dead.

it's still a sad situation... but even iraqbodycount.com tops the total out at 10,000... and i would expect their estimates to be the most liberal available.

http://www.iraqbodycount.net/editorial_feb0704.htm

on top of that... i'm not even sure how they determine who was a civilian or not. our troops are getting fired at by small children, how do you even quantify that type of threat when totalling innocent casualties?

OY............ Slvr, calm down man, don't make me sorry I defended you. There is opinion and then there is just saying things to start fights. I defended your right to opinion, there is no right to pick fights by flaming.

Irate even appolgized and said he jumped the gun and you can't let it go.

Look, the war is doing negative things to all of us. And until it is over and the men and women putting their lives on the line for my rights come home, NOBODY outside of the military truly knows what is going on over there.

For the war or against the war doesn't matter. The press only reports innuendoes and "facts" from sources that probably can be rebuked fully by the other side with their set of "facts".

There are 2 very sad things happening in my opinion because of this war.

1) We are dividing farther and farther and making this solely a political party thing, which helps noone and hurts the war effort. Whether we agree with the war or disagree, we are at war and MUST above all support our troops and pray for a positive ending. History has led us here, the why's and how's are speculation and irrelevant now, all we can do is change leadership if we feel that the leadership was wrong.

2) The biggest concern I have over this war, is the fact here at home we are crying over the price of gas, what Stern says and making very few sacrifices. While the families and friends of our men and women over there worry about how and when their loved ones will come home. We tend to backpage what goes on over there. Unless it is a local kid, the national news just reports a death and moves on like it is nothing.

Not saying we have to blindly follow our leader (hell, noone hates Bush more than me) but please for the love of God, let us stop fighting over the why and how and bullshit of the war and work together to help find a way to bring our troops home safe.

I will just post random links with the death tolls. Now keep in mind that when I went overseas, the newspapers all said it was 25000+, whether you want to believe me or not is up to you.

http://www.mail-archive.com/news@ant.../msg04991.html

http://www.freepress.org/departments...ay/13/2003/440

http://www.truthout.org/docs_03/083103A.shtml

http://www.rense.com/general40/todate.htm

I just did a quick search and came across these, there are more you can check out yourself if you do a search. These guys say 37 000 dead, even way more than what i said. I believe it.

How come its always just the troops, why doesnt anyone give a shit about the innocents dying, you care more about the people who are killing the innocents.

Slvr there is just no winning with you. I dig your spunk and passion man, but I'm done, after I say this, War is war man, innocents die. Praying for an end to bring troops home or to save more innocents from dying, is still praying for an ending to the needless deaths caused by war. Again, there is nothing more we can do.

As cold and as heartless as this sounds, it is the truth I have come to believe, to defend the innocent civilians over there just works against our troops and handcuffs them in ending the war sooner, because the other side is using our care of civilians and our desire to save them against us. Just like 'Nam it has gotten to the point where our men and women don't know who is safe and who is going to pull a gun/bomb/knife and kill them.

*rude comment removed*

This is going to sound horribly insensetive:

I've seen worse. War is not clean or sterile. Worse things probably happen everyday down there.

I feel sorry for his family.

Wrong, it is the reactions of people like you which lead threads to be locked. That is one man's opinion and you should learn to respect that.

This whole ordeal (video) is nuts. It saddens me that people are over in Iraq who have no clue "WHY?" People are dying period. Why do Americans cry foul when it happens to one of us? This is a progression from the Iraqi torture. Killing is not logical yet in WAR this progression is logical. Our Administration paints this benevolent and peace loving picture of our actions while the effects are frequently far from peaceful and benevolent. I sense that something grave is at the doorstep either outside or inside the US.

That makes me so sad,it really really hurt me to watch that I had to cover my eyes and have my boyfriend tell me about it, it made me cry and weep for 20 min.
I wish he would have stayed in the us.
It makes me wish that I would go back and stop him from going there,he was right at the border then he got taken, why???
He was not even a soilder.
I feel so sorry for him he must have suffered.
Killing him is just like killing a little kid,he had nothing to do with why they even killed him, yea, they wanted some of there bad guys let go.
I hate the men who did that.
Sorry ppl I am all emotional after watching some of that and at the end they just held his head up. I would have been so scared if that was me.
I hope they find the ppl who did that!!!!!!!

Everyone set everything else aside for a minute.....this is not about which side YOU are on.

A man lost his life in a horrible and brutal way. The people who were most directly responsible decided to film it and put it on the internet. I would hope that anyone could agree that this is a sad and tragic thing, regardless of his/her views on the overall conflict, politics, etc...

A man lost his life in a senselessly brutal way. We should be outraged and saddened by a death like this.....no matter what side we are on.

Why in the fuck would anyone watch this? That's what I don't understand.

You KNOW what will be on the video. You KNOW that a man got his head cut off. You KNOW that the men who did it then held up his head. I've heard this all on countless news reports. Why in the hell would you then watch it?

Seriously, somebody who did watch it answer why you did. Curiousty? Just into seeing a man killed?

I'm not trying to bait anyone, I'm geniunly interested in why somebody would watch this.

In order to confront the actual reality of the enemy.

What I find interesting, is the response from the Arab/Muslim media. The BBC reports that a lot of them (along with some of the posters here) see this murder as a direct result of the (alleged) torture of Iraqis by Americans. However, these terrorists were murdering people long before that happened... It's just an excuse - had the US not abused Iraqis, they would have found another "reason" to kill this man.

(...slowly losing every bit of respect I ever had for Islam.)

I dont endorse war or murder but are you trying to say that the US will not be held accountable for the torture?
True Al Queda has killed...but your statement toltally erases any American accountability for these war crimes we have committed.

yep - that's right - it's me...

1: let's keep this on topic - it started out going into personal feelings and, in my opinion, that is what needs to be shared

2: personal feelings do not have to include a pissing contest over the rights of one's opinion

3: the blame game - right or wrong - he said / she said - is a no win situation for anyone - the topic is nick berg and not the reason why iraq is being occupied

so please stop the rhetoric and share your thoughts about this tragedy

now that that's out of the way...

i have to remind myself that when one country occupies another for whatever reason it's imparitive that the cultures of the host country must be observed - that includes following their religious tenets...

should our beliefs be imposed on another the host most certainly will become reviled - yes, what happened in the compound was disgusting, being ridiculed in such a manner definately affected those that saw the photos - but to use that as a reason to justify the beheading of an innocent is as revolting as the act itself

i look back at the mutilation of 4 such innocents and find myself remembering that this is indeed a war and will continue long after i'm dead

have i been in a war zone - yes - and, again, right or wrong, doesn't matter, in the area of conflict one must adhere to the conventions of war with great regard to the affectations of the locals

i bow my head to this man and his family and wish them all the peace they can muster at the time of their loss


edit - and averett - i wholeheartedly agree

(alleged)? Why beat around the bush? They were tortured and humiliated... no need to prevaricate.

Or are you suggesting that maybe it didn't happen?

The really funny thing about this is, all the people that claimed the torturing was only commited by some "foul apples" and that you could not blame the whole US/UK millitary for it are now condemning "the islam" for the decapitation.

War is Hell.
While it is likely, we have done far worse to numerous Iraqis (whether intentional or not) neither side should be excused for taking humanity to a lower level of civilization. We are both the bad guys in this, in each others' eyes. In all likelyhood, this is only going to get worse and I can see no "light" at the end of the tuunel. I don't even know where the damn tunnel is.

the light at the end of the tunnel is an oncoming train

Averett: I watched it by accident. A friend who I often share links to funny blooper videos or articles with sent it to me before I knew what was in it. He assumed I had heard the news and would've known what was on it. I watched it, and it shocked me to say the least.

I didn't cry on 9/11, but I bawled after that video. Too personal. It fucked my whole night up.

My stomach is now upset. I watched the video because I wanted to see it. My thoughts and prayers go out to the Berg family. I am deeply troubled about the future world my 4 year old and 8 month old daughters will be growing up in.
I don't know what else to say, but am going to put in a new thread immediatly entitled "Get the Hell out now".

That's why I watched it.



What I'd like to know is how many more Nick Bergs have to die for a mistake?

I can't believe some of you (edited) watched that video. I went to high school with him so I could never watch it.

Nick Berg didn't think it was a mistake, Nick Berg wanted to be there, Nick Berg was there trying to help, Nick Berg was innocent. I'm gonna echo Dragonlich's sentiments - where is the condemnation from the muslim community? Actually, where is the condemnation from alot of you. The best some of you can muster is "we've probably done far worse, were both the bad guys" or some other such rationalizing of this behavior.

oh well.....i've lost hope...

You're right, matthew330, I was under the impression he was a civilian contractor working for the govt.

In a strange way, I was interested in seeing what was on the video, however, I can't bring myself to watch it as I know how it will effect me. I don't think that there is any issue with others watching it...you can't shy away from the truth.

What really scares me is that even in some of the more westernized areas of the middle east (UAE, etc) there are cab drivers and people on the streets saying that this "is a good thing" and that every american should expect that more is coming their way....

This kind of hatred is just plain scary. The abuses by the US soldiers were shocking, however, they were probably a damn good way of getting information out of guilty parties. The US's poistion was seriously undermined and its reputation severly damaged...I dont know how the hell we are going to stabilise Iraq without the help of other nations.

And, Daniel Berg was in Iraq looking for work...the US apparently detained him for 13 days on his way around...My question is, how the hell did he get in in the first place?? Without the correct documents he should have never been allowed into a warzone...

You cannot condemn the whole Muslim/Islam community for the actions of the radicals anymore than they can condemn the US as a whole for the actions of the prison guards.

To condemn innocent people for the crimes and hatreds of a few is showing you are no more civilized or rational than they are. And then the hatred and anger keeps getting fueled until it destroys everyone.

Condemn the acts and the people performing the acts. Condemn the hatred that fuels the war and the killing but do not condemn innocent people and a whole religion.

As for rationalizing, some people need to, as a defense mechanism, or they will crack and then the terrorists truly do win. It also prevents mob mentality. Otherwise if we all allowed our emotions to dictate what we do, then we would be rioting in the streets.

There is more than enough hatred in this country to fuel a hundred wars. There is truly little love and compassion but thankfully there is enough right now to keep things under control.

Did Jesus not preach that "he who lives by the sword shall die by the sword"? Or that we must love our enemies. Yes, we need to defend, yes we need to do what is necessary to make the world safer for our children, but that is what our military is for, not mobs and hate mongers because they do not ever promote peace and peace never comes to them, psychologically or physically.

One thing this war will eventually do is make each of us look within and challenge our faith and beliefs. If you run on hatred you will lose, for in the eyes of any of God's religions (Islam, Christianity, Jewish, Buddhist, Confucionist, Maoist, Wiccan... whichever) hatred is wrong.

Condemn what is wrong and the wrongdoers, but love the innocents who also condemn the evil. Because evil is evil in all religion.

CNN ran stories this morning with common Iraqi's who have denounced these actions. On my local news at noon an Iman condemned the actions as anti-Islam.

Even as brutal and totally unneccesary as this murder was, these are radical fanatics who are responsible, who have their own agenda, not the entire muslim community as some may have you want to believe.

*sigh*
No, that's not what I said. I said that the Arab media portray this execution as a DIRECT RESULT of the torture. These terrorists didn't just start doing stuff like this, they've been doing this for years now. Therefore, the torture was an EXCUSE, not a REASON for the killing. Nowhere did I say, nor even imply, that the US is not accountable for their actions.

I put "alleged" there, because so far I've only seen evidence of humiliation, not torture. Furthermore, I said that in the good old American tradition of "innocent until proven guilty". After all, it is starting to look very likely that a lot, if not all of the pictures of UK soldiers abusing Iraqis were in fact staged. Or are you suggesting we should just believe everything the media shows us, and start executing the "guilty" people right away?

--------------

Damn it people, some of you really should consider READING a post before getting all worked up about it. Perhaps people don't mean it in the most negative way possible!

Oh, I believe the Muslim community in general doesn't like this execution one bit. That's not what I'm talking about. It's the Arab/Muslim *media* that I'm concerned about. They seem to me to be rather biased, even a supposed "independent" media source like Al-Jazeera. They're worse than Fox at times, and there doesn't appear to be any moderate voice out there. One can see the effect this has on the Arab population as a whole, with hatred of the "evil" US at an all-time high, even when the US is trying to *help* the Iraqi people.

They only seem to see the bad things, and the good things are ignored; but that's probably universal for big media organizations.

Maybe you should heed your own words on that score.

well said pan...

though i think there is an alarming absence of reaction from the moderate muslim community. i don't pretend to understand the dynamics of the international worldview of the muslim faith, but i do know that when nuances of US policy are perceived to be threatening... there are riots and demonstrations publicized on TV. When a muslim radical does something completely abhorrent, there appears to be an odd and discomforting silence.

again, i'm not saying that there aren't times or segments of muslim outrage with the terrorist issues. what i am saying is that the West's perception of their quiet reflects back to many of us as acceptance. how much different would many Americans feel about the middle east if they made open gestures of sympathy and solidarity... sentiments we volunteer when a bomb goes awry or humiliating photos are taken/published.

whether this reflects what the average muslim in believes in or not... i do not know (and certainly hope not). if these anecdotal examples do not reflect the mainstream thought over there, then i suggest that they have a perception problem over here just as we do over there.

I watched the video and I'm not going to comment on what I think of the overall situation because it will just upset a large number of the people posting in this thread.

I will state, however, that these same fanatical groups repeatedly release non-combatants from the nations that are not involved in what they see as military aggression.

Just keep that in mind as you chastise them as evil and irrational.

I don't see all this sympathy you're referring to. Most responses are avoidances of direct responsibility and reframing the terms of engagement (e.g., civilian casualties redefined as necessary components to war and/or collateral damage).

I suspect the people over there think the people over here are just as non-chalant about their tragedy as we think they are about ours.

Sarcasm, dude... sarcasm. :P

Or Irony if I were really that dumb. :)

That really I think is the key root of the problem, and for that I blame all media for letting subjective biases dominate and cause divisions between cultures.


"They only seem to see the bad things, and the good things are ignored; but that's probably universal for big media organizations".

Dragonlich--agreed also.

Just as a note. i am not trying to flame. however watching this video and seeing this/your comment made this following statement stick in my mind. i tried not to post it. i do know it is a flame. but all i could do is think about it. Here is my reply.


DID WE FORGET Sept 11th?
becouse im pretty sure they werent going to stop terrist attacks after that. im pretty sure it wasnt there last thing to do.
ok yes blame bush for the war. but dont say he started it, or killed him!

You know, after watching this video I have decided that the US military should round up all these terrorist assholes and place panties on their heads and stack them into nude pyramids.

This makes me really sick. The people who did this are murderers. Berg was not a soldier, he was a civilian. Yes, the actions of some of the coalition armed forces have been atrocious in regard to the latest prison photographs and videos, but I think we can all agree that those trangressions in no way justify slaughtering an innocent man.

Obviously the murderers are extremists. I have not been to Iraq, but I think if you ask the average citizen if slowly cutting off an innocent civilian's head is a just action, I think most would disagree.

One other thing I would like to add. The people who did this are cowards. Like someone else said, they're all wearing masks and it takes a group of them to hold this handcuffed and innocent man down and kill him. They are truly pathetic. I hope that these murderers are found and punished severely.

Right assilem because two wrongs make a right?

Great guys lets alllll go back to this vicious cycle !

Look as much as people say things, I think we need to keep this in perspective: the media tells us these things, the AMERICAN media! (or to an extent british also, but in general most of us are going to watch it from an American perspective.)

So that's why the media is going to show how other people hate us but not much from news (local for them) from that area so it's just a thing... keep it in perspective that you're seeing it from America.

Now as to those responsible? If they're found have em executed, fine - they're war criminals and deserve it so if found guilty.

But to paint the brush of all people for the actions of a few make little sense when that was what was said to us.

you know, i've heard so many people warn against painting all muslims this way... but i can't remember a single instance where that has been said.

could be wrong... but i think sometimes people relish pointing that out. was zeld2.0 was still talking to assilem? cause he specifically mentioned "terrorist assholes" and not "all people."
i've seriously never met anyone who would argue that all muslims are like those who beheaded berg or any of the other things we've been hearing about, yet there are always admonitions for people to stop doing that.

nothing personal, just a minor grievance with the pace of discussion on tfp...

To confont the fears and go past it. To grow as a person.
Bad things happen and they all cant be covered up and I pretend they don't happen.

Well the thread mostly was directed at assilem

Honestly for the most part this thread was going great but people are bringing in politics and stuff into here that shouldn't argh

Just my frustration anyways but I wouldn't generalize that people don't think that way because on this board I have already heard many people saying how muslims are a people bred in hate

Hell people even say liberals should be bombed... now what the hell is that?

Oh well just rambling now but it's frustrating when this talk ends up occuring when it shouldn't

I'm Enraged.... It's a pent up anger that reminds me of Sep. 11th.

What's crazy is the video is supposed to make us leave. Instead it just makes me want to go over there and deliver my own kind of justice to those people.

I personally believe we should leave Iraq, since nobody appriecates our help, and apparently, no one in our military can control our troops. But if we leave without capturing these idiot fanatics, then that is truly an injustice to every good man or woman who has served there.

I don't interpret it as a ploy to make us want our soldiers to leave. I think it's more likely that we (soldiers, public, and lawmakers) are being incited to become what we claim to hate.

This isn't a clip from The Exorcist or a Freddy Kreuger movie. It's what they did to a businessman whose so-called crime was being in the wrong place at the wrong time while trying to help Iraq restore its communications infrastructure. Refusing to watch it won't make it go away. Watching it helps you come to terms with the people (I use that term loosely) we're fighting are like, and why they need to die.

Back in WWII, we bombed Germany and Japan into oblivion, then helped rebuild them into countries vastly superior to what they were. And it worked beautifully. They're both prosperous countries who are now allies of ours, thanks to us giving them a government that emphasizes capitalism and individual freedom.

Now that this country is so fucking spineless, the only thing we do is take just enough action to annoy our enemies with bullshit "liberation missions", which just causes our soldiers to die and prevents us from ever getting to the rebuilding stage.

I hope that once the most savage of emotions wash through us, after watching this atrocity...that we take time to think...and NOT be like these people. That's why I said capture. I want them to have a fair, public trial. Hell, lets make it a trial based on allah's law. They couldn't argue with that.

How can these people claim to be of faith? They don't even understand the fundmental principles of peace and love in their releigon. It's truly is amazing to me. But I guess taht's another thing for a different thread.

There is another twist which must be mentioned.
We supposedly know who the perpetrators are yet they wore masks?? I dont buy this whole story anymore.
We are now in the age of the anonymous terrorist?
Smelling more and more like PsyOps to me.
Condolences to the family and one more question....

Can we get a confirmation on his purpose over there?
The lastest quack I heard was that he was over there trying to get a piece of the communications contract pie.

I think this is close to the truth. There have been a ton of stories written locally here (I'm in between the Philly and New York media markets) that say he owned his own little telecom company. Nothing special just a one man type shop where he made circuitry and such. He seems to have been over there on his own but the story is sounding very fishy to me since what he told his parents about when he would return and his supposed detention by the Iraqi police and US military seems not to be true (or at least unverifiable at this point). I suspect those who abducted him lured him into a phony potential business deal and he delayed his return home for it.

The conspiracy theory:
http://www.infowars.com/print/iraq/berg.htm

This editorial is in today's Atlanta Journal-Constitution.
It restates the case some of us have made here regarding the necessity of apprehending, as fully as possible, the brutal reality of the enemy.

..................

Confronting evil requires showing gruesome images

Atlanta Journal-Constitution
Published on: 05/13/2004

Nick Berg started his own telecommunications company and once visited Ghana to teach brick-making to villagers.

Confronting evil requires showing gruesome images

The slaughter of Nick Berg at the hands of murderous terrorists in Iraq has left America and most of the world once again recoiling in horror. Of all the wrenching images that have washed over us in ceaseless waves since Sept. 11, Berg's killing is among the most haunting.
In the video -- first released on an Arab Web site -- Berg's masked tormentors claim to be exacting revenge for the abuses of Iraqi detainees by U.S. forces at Abu Ghraib prison near Baghdad, scenes also captured on camera for posterity. After executing Berg by decapitation, his captors claimed that they were acting at the behest of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, a reputed lieutenant of Sept. 11 ringleader Osama bin Laden.

Berg's assassination -- and it is exactly that -- has once again provoked debate about whether the news media should disseminate pictures that might compromise the safety of American troops and civilians in Iraq and other theaters of combat in the war on terrorism. Although these images are almost too painful to endure, as a nation we cannot avert our eyes or our attention from the challenges that lie ahead.

Berg's killing is a reminder of the bloodthirsty nature of those who, by their deeds, are sworn enemies of all humanity. Americans' natural horror at the images shouldn't result in censorship. Our democracy, which was founded on an unfettered press and a well-informed public, demands nothing less than staring evil in the face.

But even as we confront the evil in the world, we should draw some comfort from reflecting on Berg's all-too-brief life. While most of us never knew Berg personally, he isn't really a stranger to us.

A resident of suburban Philadelphia, the 26-year-old was described by his heartbroken family as a "free spirit" who had attended several colleges, started his own telecommunications company and once visited the African nation of Ghana on a humanitarian mission to teach brick-making to villagers.

Berg was not the first American casualty in the war on terrorism, and it's unlikely he will be the last. But the challenges we face cannot become our rationale for sacrificing the principles we're fighting to defend.

This is an excellent ending point. I see too many people willing to respond to Berg's killing with the same, or worse, treatment of the enemy. If the USA doesn't stick to our principles, then we have no principles.

More conspiracy theory:
http://genmay.net/showthread.php?t=354134&page=1&pp=20

To some degree I can see the whole conspiracy theory and it is very believable and possible. That's what makes conspiracy theories so damned good.

On the other hand it is very sick to think our government would be so low, but it is possible. 99% probability that it is false but has some truth (albeit twisted) to it. The big thing about conspiracies is that the truth does come out eventually, and I seriously doubt Bush's people needed this to win. In fact, if the whole conspiracy theory does get to rolling it'll hurt Kerry because people could see it as an act of desperation by the Dems. However, it could also hurt Bush because enough people may question.

I do however believe that there is more to all this (torture and beheading) than we the public know. The timing does seem quite interesting. But in the old days the mafia would kill a person of another crew/family as soon as they found one of thiers dead.


I'm sooooooooo confused I don't know which way to turn. Let me listen to Mr. Limbaugh and see what he says........


Hmmmm Today he went to great lengths to blame Democrats in the military for the pictures and investigations. Which is now going to cause the nuts that take every word he says literally, wanting a political party test before someone can join the military. Humor aside, he continues to play this party against party, which is quite saddening, and almost political suicide for the GOP.

ARGHHHHHHHHH God help us all the war is making us crazy. Or maybe it's the flouride in the water, or the secret chemicals the Aliens are putting into the atmosphere with the chem trails..... wait that's conspiracy.... need to go to conspiracy thread.

Sorry just some humor hope I didn't offend anyone, sure I did though.

I know the answer may seem obvious, and there are probably various reasons; however and most specifically to Iraq: Clerics that assume power, and individuals like Osama have no quams about letting their identity known. They boast their actions with a manical pride. For they have multitudes of followers that also claim they have devoted their life to fighting the US. I wonder why they further a cowardly act such as this by wearing masks. It was the same with Dan Pearl. Its a small issue compared to this man losing his life. It puzzles me if they view their cause so highly and the devotion runs high enough to do such a thing and make whatever statement is being attempted why they dont have the guts to look the world in the face without hiding.

I have mixed feelings about allot of things in that area of the world, but this video infuriates me.

i watched it....actually felt sick to my stomach....hadda watch 30 mins of the family guy to get my mind off of it......

worst thing those arabs could have done was to kill him....they had all negative media attention on the us army privates being dilholes taking photos of them screwing around......

now the focus is on how horrible the arab terrorist are......

the middle east is just a mess....i really think we should just let israel have south dakota and pull everything out of there and let them all kill each other....


dont get me wrong i support the war, my best friend is there and i pray for his safety.....

i realise that its necessary, i know people that died in the world trade center

All I know, is that if this happened in the US, there wouldn't have to be an occupying force to hunt these son of a bitches down and kill them. We would be shocked and horrified enough to do it ourselves.

There is your difference, they may say it was wrong, but are the Iraqi's turning these fucker's in? Are their neighbors kicking the shit out of them?

We're policing our own-Cause we don't tolerate man's inhumanity to man from ANY quarter.

* I watched it-can you tell that it made me madder than hell!?

ARRRRRRRRGH!!!

That's the first time I've felt physically ill by looking at something in a long time. I didn't think it was possible for me to react to visual stimuli like this after all the things I've seen on the internet. I would personally kill every one of those men in that video if I had the chance. I hope Bush erases all of those crazy Islamic fucks from the face of the earth. We should hunt and kill Islamic radicals whereever we find them IMO.

Mr Stickey - I don't agree with you, but it's just in a general way- many folks echo your sentiment, and I disagree with the general sentiment itself.

That is- the idea that this act was so horrible that it demonstrates how "sick" Iraqis (or terrorists, natch) are, and that Americans are collectively sickened by this act, and would never commit such a foul act. Obviously, this is far from the truth. Every day Americans are brutally raped, beaten, and murdered in our very borders. If you'd like to know how sick Americans are, just browse here:

http://www.prodeathpenalty.com/

Read some of the stories of the grotesque, sick, humiliating acts done by Americans to other Americans. What's alarming about this? Well, many Americans claim there shouldn't be a death penalty at all- so folks who have committed these acts would serve life in prison, or whatever candy-azz penalty they "deserve". So, to put it simply, Americans really DON'T care about sickos like this, as long as they don't personally *witness* the act, and as long as it's an American. If it's a foreigner- well, all bets are off.

This isn't meant as an attack on folks who think Berg's death was sick, humiliating, so on... far from it. This is simply a statement that no, Americans do not actually care that much about the disgusting acts that murderers commit, in general.

On a side note, my personal conspiracy theory is a simple one- that Nick Berg was American Intelligence, and he was captured and killed, then disavowed. There's really little else that makes sense about a 26 year old guy speaking Arabic and chatting up fellow prisoners while making Iraqi contacts, who is visited multiple times by FBI, before being kidnapped and murdered.

On another side note, I'm a *liberal*, generally, so feel free to avoid bashing me as a Bushite conservative... I simply feel that murderers and rapists have given up their right to breathe, that's all.

Just like with Timothy McVeigh! And those Columbine kids. We kicked their asses and strung them up on a tree!

Thank goodness the USA isn't really like that.

It is shit like this that pisses me off that we went to war with Iraq going against the U.S. and without much support.
Fucking bullshit.
How many U.S. citizens have to die before we realize this was a goddamn mistake from the beginning. Easy to go to war if you yourself does not have to fight.

History is replete with atrocities of one human against another. I find it funny that people are so horrified by this. Historically, people right here in the U.S. have had many horrible people among them.

Ask an ancestor of a Salem, Massachusettes, witch trial victim. Ask the family of a KKK hate crime victim. Hell, ask any of the families of the many, many serial killers and horrific murderers we've had both past and present. Hell, many say that rape can be worse than dying- ask the millions of women that are raped each year right here in our own borders.

This is not an outrage, this is a sad occurrence- but par for the course. This is war- and I don't have to like it to be realistic about its repercussions.

Well put. Spot on.

Did anyone notice a lack of blood? seemed odd compared to other discriptions of beheadings. looks like he was dead before his head was cut off.

well lets be honest how many of them were recorded for people to see? People are so outraged cause this may be one of the first times they have seen anyone killed. (not in the movies)

Yes, sometimes life's less desireable occurrences are easier to ignore when they're not in real-time and staring you in the face.

That was awful. I don't really know why I watched it but I wish I hadn't.

It is true, such atrocities are par for the course in war.

But that is all the more reason why one must bear responsibility for such things when one starts a war.

If you are going to go to war, you need to be honest and understanding about the full costs of it. Not just money, but human. If you are, and you still determine it to be worth it, then so be it. But you then should have no problem standing up and taking responsibility for your actions.

The Bush Team can't hide behind claiming it was Saddam's fault. Yes, there were plenty of things Saddam could have done better to avoid war. But there were also plenty of things Bush could have done. In the end, it was Bush that pulled the trigger.

Whether or not it was the right thing to do is another topic, but either way, he bears a certain level of responsibility for Mr. Berg's death, the death of our troops over there, and the deaths of tens of thousands of Iraqis.

We shouldn't be using Saddam as our moral barometer. We should be proceeding through this affair by our own compass. If we are forced to compare to Hussein, then perhaps our compass is faulty?

Well, what happened to him definitely sucks and shouldn't happen to anyone ever.

That being said... the video had no effect on me whatsoever. Not to sound so blase and disrespectful, but I could watch it 20 times in a row while eating a sandwich, that's how much it doesn't affect me. As an avid browser of rotten.com, I'm immune to the macabre imagery.

Well it seems that people have been really digging into the video and the anomalies it shows. Here's a nice wrapup:

http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2004/5/15/22827/0477

Another source tells that the camera that was used to film the Berg video may well be the same that was used to record the prison video's:

http://www.uruknet.info/?p=3113