Averett

Why in the fuck would anyone watch this? That's what I don't understand.

You KNOW what will be on the video. You KNOW that a man got his head cut off. You KNOW that the men who did it then held up his head. I've heard this all on countless news reports. Why in the hell would you then watch it?

Seriously, somebody who did watch it answer why you did. Curiousty? Just into seeing a man killed?

I'm not trying to bait anyone, I'm geniunly interested in why somebody would watch this.

__________________
Absence is to love what wind is to fire. It extinguishes the small, it enkindles the great.

ARTelevision

In order to confront the actual reality of the enemy.

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create evolution

Dragonlich

What I find interesting, is the response from the Arab/Muslim media. The BBC reports that a lot of them (along with some of the posters here) see this murder as a direct result of the (alleged) torture of Iraqis by Americans. However, these terrorists were murdering people long before that happened... It's just an excuse - had the US not abused Iraqis, they would have found another "reason" to kill this man.

(...slowly losing every bit of respect I ever had for Islam.)

Bookman

I dont endorse war or murder but are you trying to say that the US will not be held accountable for the torture?
True Al Queda has killed...but your statement toltally erases any American accountability for these war crimes we have committed.

Hanxter

yep - that's right - it's me...

1: let's keep this on topic - it started out going into personal feelings and, in my opinion, that is what needs to be shared

2: personal feelings do not have to include a pissing contest over the rights of one's opinion

3: the blame game - right or wrong - he said / she said - is a no win situation for anyone - the topic is nick berg and not the reason why iraq is being occupied

so please stop the rhetoric and share your thoughts about this tragedy

now that that's out of the way...

i have to remind myself that when one country occupies another for whatever reason it's imparitive that the cultures of the host country must be observed - that includes following their religious tenets...

should our beliefs be imposed on another the host most certainly will become reviled - yes, what happened in the compound was disgusting, being ridiculed in such a manner definately affected those that saw the photos - but to use that as a reason to justify the beheading of an innocent is as revolting as the act itself

i look back at the mutilation of 4 such innocents and find myself remembering that this is indeed a war and will continue long after i'm dead

have i been in a war zone - yes - and, again, right or wrong, doesn't matter, in the area of conflict one must adhere to the conventions of war with great regard to the affectations of the locals

i bow my head to this man and his family and wish them all the peace they can muster at the time of their loss


edit - and averett - i wholeheartedly agree

Charlatan

(alleged)? Why beat around the bush? They were tortured and humiliated... no need to prevaricate.

Or are you suggesting that maybe it didn't happen?

Pacifier

The really funny thing about this is, all the people that claimed the torturing was only commited by some "foul apples" and that you could not blame the whole US/UK millitary for it are now condemning "the islam" for the decapitation.

__________________
"It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously. I also cannot imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere. Science has been charged with undermining morality, but the charge is unjust. A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death
— Albert Einstein

tecoyah

War is Hell.
While it is likely, we have done far worse to numerous Iraqis (whether intentional or not) neither side should be excused for taking humanity to a lower level of civilization. We are both the bad guys in this, in each others' eyes. In all likelyhood, this is only going to get worse and I can see no "light" at the end of the tuunel. I don't even know where the damn tunnel is.

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Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

Hanxter

the light at the end of the tunnel is an oncoming train

SkanK0r

Averett: I watched it by accident. A friend who I often share links to funny blooper videos or articles with sent it to me before I knew what was in it. He assumed I had heard the news and would've known what was on it. I watched it, and it shocked me to say the least.

I didn't cry on 9/11, but I bawled after that video. Too personal. It fucked my whole night up.

sky_driver

My stomach is now upset. I watched the video because I wanted to see it. My thoughts and prayers go out to the Berg family. I am deeply troubled about the future world my 4 year old and 8 month old daughters will be growing up in.
I don't know what else to say, but am going to put in a new thread immediatly entitled "Get the Hell out now".

Sparhawk

That's why I watched it.



What I'd like to know is how many more Nick Bergs have to die for a mistake?

__________________
"In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work. It's incredibly hard. It's - and it's hard work. I understand how hard it is. I get the casualty reports every day. I see on the TV screens how hard it is. But it's necessary work. We're making progress. It is hard work."

Jesus Pimp

I can't believe some of you (edited) watched that video. I went to high school with him so I could never watch it.

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Never date anyone who doesn't make your dick hard.

matthew330

Nick Berg didn't think it was a mistake, Nick Berg wanted to be there, Nick Berg was there trying to help, Nick Berg was innocent. I'm gonna echo Dragonlich's sentiments - where is the condemnation from the muslim community? Actually, where is the condemnation from alot of you. The best some of you can muster is "we've probably done far worse, were both the bad guys" or some other such rationalizing of this behavior.

oh well.....i've lost hope...

Sparhawk

You're right, matthew330, I was under the impression he was a civilian contractor working for the govt.

__________________
"In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work. It's incredibly hard. It's - and it's hard work. I understand how hard it is. I get the casualty reports every day. I see on the TV screens how hard it is. But it's necessary work. We're making progress. It is hard work."

zenmaster10665

In a strange way, I was interested in seeing what was on the video, however, I can't bring myself to watch it as I know how it will effect me. I don't think that there is any issue with others watching it...you can't shy away from the truth.

What really scares me is that even in some of the more westernized areas of the middle east (UAE, etc) there are cab drivers and people on the streets saying that this "is a good thing" and that every american should expect that more is coming their way....

This kind of hatred is just plain scary. The abuses by the US soldiers were shocking, however, they were probably a damn good way of getting information out of guilty parties. The US's poistion was seriously undermined and its reputation severly damaged...I dont know how the hell we are going to stabilise Iraq without the help of other nations.

And, Daniel Berg was in Iraq looking for work...the US apparently detained him for 13 days on his way around...My question is, how the hell did he get in in the first place?? Without the correct documents he should have never been allowed into a warzone...

__________________
"Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before.
He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way."
-Kurt Vonnegut

pan6467

You cannot condemn the whole Muslim/Islam community for the actions of the radicals anymore than they can condemn the US as a whole for the actions of the prison guards.

To condemn innocent people for the crimes and hatreds of a few is showing you are no more civilized or rational than they are. And then the hatred and anger keeps getting fueled until it destroys everyone.

Condemn the acts and the people performing the acts. Condemn the hatred that fuels the war and the killing but do not condemn innocent people and a whole religion.

As for rationalizing, some people need to, as a defense mechanism, or they will crack and then the terrorists truly do win. It also prevents mob mentality. Otherwise if we all allowed our emotions to dictate what we do, then we would be rioting in the streets.

There is more than enough hatred in this country to fuel a hundred wars. There is truly little love and compassion but thankfully there is enough right now to keep things under control.

Did Jesus not preach that "he who lives by the sword shall die by the sword"? Or that we must love our enemies. Yes, we need to defend, yes we need to do what is necessary to make the world safer for our children, but that is what our military is for, not mobs and hate mongers because they do not ever promote peace and peace never comes to them, psychologically or physically.

One thing this war will eventually do is make each of us look within and challenge our faith and beliefs. If you run on hatred you will lose, for in the eyes of any of God's religions (Islam, Christianity, Jewish, Buddhist, Confucionist, Maoist, Wiccan... whichever) hatred is wrong.

Condemn what is wrong and the wrongdoers, but love the innocents who also condemn the evil. Because evil is evil in all religion.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

OFKU0

CNN ran stories this morning with common Iraqi's who have denounced these actions. On my local news at noon an Iman condemned the actions as anti-Islam.

Even as brutal and totally unneccesary as this murder was, these are radical fanatics who are responsible, who have their own agenda, not the entire muslim community as some may have you want to believe.

__________________
" In Canada, you can tell the most blatant lie in a calm voice, and people will believe you over someone who's a little passionate about the truth." David Warren, Western Standard.

Dragonlich

*sigh*
No, that's not what I said. I said that the Arab media portray this execution as a DIRECT RESULT of the torture. These terrorists didn't just start doing stuff like this, they've been doing this for years now. Therefore, the torture was an EXCUSE, not a REASON for the killing. Nowhere did I say, nor even imply, that the US is not accountable for their actions.

I put "alleged" there, because so far I've only seen evidence of humiliation, not torture. Furthermore, I said that in the good old American tradition of "innocent until proven guilty". After all, it is starting to look very likely that a lot, if not all of the pictures of UK soldiers abusing Iraqis were in fact staged. Or are you suggesting we should just believe everything the media shows us, and start executing the "guilty" people right away?

--------------

Damn it people, some of you really should consider READING a post before getting all worked up about it. Perhaps people don't mean it in the most negative way possible!

Dragonlich

Oh, I believe the Muslim community in general doesn't like this execution one bit. That's not what I'm talking about. It's the Arab/Muslim *media* that I'm concerned about. They seem to me to be rather biased, even a supposed "independent" media source like Al-Jazeera. They're worse than Fox at times, and there doesn't appear to be any moderate voice out there. One can see the effect this has on the Arab population as a whole, with hatred of the "evil" US at an all-time high, even when the US is trying to *help* the Iraqi people.

They only seem to see the bad things, and the good things are ignored; but that's probably universal for big media organizations.

Sparhawk

Maybe you should heed your own words on that score.

__________________
"In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work. It's incredibly hard. It's - and it's hard work. I understand how hard it is. I get the casualty reports every day. I see on the TV screens how hard it is. But it's necessary work. We're making progress. It is hard work."

irateplatypus

well said pan...

though i think there is an alarming absence of reaction from the moderate muslim community. i don't pretend to understand the dynamics of the international worldview of the muslim faith, but i do know that when nuances of US policy are perceived to be threatening... there are riots and demonstrations publicized on TV. When a muslim radical does something completely abhorrent, there appears to be an odd and discomforting silence.

again, i'm not saying that there aren't times or segments of muslim outrage with the terrorist issues. what i am saying is that the West's perception of their quiet reflects back to many of us as acceptance. how much different would many Americans feel about the middle east if they made open gestures of sympathy and solidarity... sentiments we volunteer when a bomb goes awry or humiliating photos are taken/published.

whether this reflects what the average muslim in believes in or not... i do not know (and certainly hope not). if these anecdotal examples do not reflect the mainstream thought over there, then i suggest that they have a perception problem over here just as we do over there.

__________________
If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.

~ Winston Churchill

smooth

I watched the video and I'm not going to comment on what I think of the overall situation because it will just upset a large number of the people posting in this thread.

I will state, however, that these same fanatical groups repeatedly release non-combatants from the nations that are not involved in what they see as military aggression.

Just keep that in mind as you chastise them as evil and irrational.

__________________
"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann

"You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman

smooth

I don't see all this sympathy you're referring to. Most responses are avoidances of direct responsibility and reframing the terms of engagement (e.g., civilian casualties redefined as necessary components to war and/or collateral damage).

I suspect the people over there think the people over here are just as non-chalant about their tragedy as we think they are about ours.

__________________
"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann

"You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman

Dragonlich

Sarcasm, dude... sarcasm. :P

Or Irony if I were really that dumb.

OFKU0

That really I think is the key root of the problem, and for that I blame all media for letting subjective biases dominate and cause divisions between cultures.


"They only seem to see the bad things, and the good things are ignored; but that's probably universal for big media organizations".

Dragonlich--agreed also.

__________________
" In Canada, you can tell the most blatant lie in a calm voice, and people will believe you over someone who's a little passionate about the truth." David Warren, Western Standard.

Sexodus

Just as a note. i am not trying to flame. however watching this video and seeing this/your comment made this following statement stick in my mind. i tried not to post it. i do know it is a flame. but all i could do is think about it. Here is my reply.


DID WE FORGET Sept 11th?
becouse im pretty sure they werent going to stop terrist attacks after that. im pretty sure it wasnt there last thing to do.
ok yes blame bush for the war. but dont say he started it, or killed him!

assilem

You know, after watching this video I have decided that the US military should round up all these terrorist assholes and place panties on their heads and stack them into nude pyramids.

__________________
The mother of mankind, what time his pride
Had cast him out from Heaven, with all his host
Of rebel Angels

ChrisJericho

This makes me really sick. The people who did this are murderers. Berg was not a soldier, he was a civilian. Yes, the actions of some of the coalition armed forces have been atrocious in regard to the latest prison photographs and videos, but I think we can all agree that those trangressions in no way justify slaughtering an innocent man.

Obviously the murderers are extremists. I have not been to Iraq, but I think if you ask the average citizen if slowly cutting off an innocent civilian's head is a just action, I think most would disagree.

One other thing I would like to add. The people who did this are cowards. Like someone else said, they're all wearing masks and it takes a group of them to hold this handcuffed and innocent man down and kill him. They are truly pathetic. I hope that these murderers are found and punished severely.

__________________
"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows us that faith proves nothing." - Friedrich Nietzsche

Zeld2.0

Right assilem because two wrongs make a right?

Great guys lets alllll go back to this vicious cycle !

Look as much as people say things, I think we need to keep this in perspective: the media tells us these things, the AMERICAN media! (or to an extent british also, but in general most of us are going to watch it from an American perspective.)

So that's why the media is going to show how other people hate us but not much from news (local for them) from that area so it's just a thing... keep it in perspective that you're seeing it from America.

Now as to those responsible? If they're found have em executed, fine - they're war criminals and deserve it so if found guilty.

But to paint the brush of all people for the actions of a few make little sense when that was what was said to us.

irateplatypus

you know, i've heard so many people warn against painting all muslims this way... but i can't remember a single instance where that has been said.

could be wrong... but i think sometimes people relish pointing that out. was zeld2.0 was still talking to assilem? cause he specifically mentioned "terrorist assholes" and not "all people."
i've seriously never met anyone who would argue that all muslims are like those who beheaded berg or any of the other things we've been hearing about, yet there are always admonitions for people to stop doing that.

nothing personal, just a minor grievance with the pace of discussion on tfp...

__________________
If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.

~ Winston Churchill

iamnormal

To confont the fears and go past it. To grow as a person.
Bad things happen and they all cant be covered up and I pretend they don't happen.

Zeld2.0

Well the thread mostly was directed at assilem

Honestly for the most part this thread was going great but people are bringing in politics and stuff into here that shouldn't argh

Just my frustration anyways but I wouldn't generalize that people don't think that way because on this board I have already heard many people saying how muslims are a people bred in hate

Hell people even say liberals should be bombed... now what the hell is that?

Oh well just rambling now but it's frustrating when this talk ends up occuring when it shouldn't

kennyg9

I'm Enraged.... It's a pent up anger that reminds me of Sep. 11th.

What's crazy is the video is supposed to make us leave. Instead it just makes me want to go over there and deliver my own kind of justice to those people.

I personally believe we should leave Iraq, since nobody appriecates our help, and apparently, no one in our military can control our troops. But if we leave without capturing these idiot fanatics, then that is truly an injustice to every good man or woman who has served there.

smooth

I don't interpret it as a ploy to make us want our soldiers to leave. I think it's more likely that we (soldiers, public, and lawmakers) are being incited to become what we claim to hate.

__________________
"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann

"You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman

irseg

This isn't a clip from The Exorcist or a Freddy Kreuger movie. It's what they did to a businessman whose so-called crime was being in the wrong place at the wrong time while trying to help Iraq restore its communications infrastructure. Refusing to watch it won't make it go away. Watching it helps you come to terms with the people (I use that term loosely) we're fighting are like, and why they need to die.

Back in WWII, we bombed Germany and Japan into oblivion, then helped rebuild them into countries vastly superior to what they were. And it worked beautifully. They're both prosperous countries who are now allies of ours, thanks to us giving them a government that emphasizes capitalism and individual freedom.

Now that this country is so fucking spineless, the only thing we do is take just enough action to annoy our enemies with bullshit "liberation missions", which just causes our soldiers to die and prevents us from ever getting to the rebuilding stage.

kennyg9

I hope that once the most savage of emotions wash through us, after watching this atrocity...that we take time to think...and NOT be like these people. That's why I said capture. I want them to have a fair, public trial. Hell, lets make it a trial based on allah's law. They couldn't argue with that.

How can these people claim to be of faith? They don't even understand the fundmental principles of peace and love in their releigon. It's truly is amazing to me. But I guess taht's another thing for a different thread.

Bookman

There is another twist which must be mentioned.
We supposedly know who the perpetrators are yet they wore masks?? I dont buy this whole story anymore.
We are now in the age of the anonymous terrorist?
Smelling more and more like PsyOps to me.
Condolences to the family and one more question....

Can we get a confirmation on his purpose over there?
The lastest quack I heard was that he was over there trying to get a piece of the communications contract pie.

onetime2

I think this is close to the truth. There have been a ton of stories written locally here (I'm in between the Philly and New York media markets) that say he owned his own little telecom company. Nothing special just a one man type shop where he made circuitry and such. He seems to have been over there on his own but the story is sounding very fishy to me since what he told his parents about when he would return and his supposed detention by the Iraqi police and US military seems not to be true (or at least unverifiable at this point). I suspect those who abducted him lured him into a phony potential business deal and he delayed his return home for it.

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Strive to be more curious than ignorant.

Mehoni

The conspiracy theory:
http://www.infowars.com/print/iraq/berg.htm

__________________
There seem to be countless rituals and cultural beliefs designed to alleviate their fear of a simple biological truth - all organisms eventually perish.