Bill O'Rights

In the wake of the prisoner abuse scandal, in Iraq, there has been a furor, calling for the resignation of Secretary of Defense, Donald Rumsfeld.

Do you think that, given the situation at hand, Rumsfeld should resign?

Most of you know by now that I'm no supporter of George W. Bush, nor his administration. However, I see no reason, given what we currently know, for Rumsfeld to resign. What happened happened. I am sorry for it. But I see no point in requesting the head of the Secretary of Defense served up on a platter. Unless it is proven that he had knowledge of the incident well before it became public.

__________________
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

irateplatypus

i don't think i'd go that far. for me, it would have to be proven that he knew of it well-beforehand... and didn't act decisively upon that information.

__________________
If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.

~ Winston Churchill

ubertuber

You know, there was an interesting editorial in the NY Times yesterday saying that he definitely SHOULDN'T resign. One point the author made was that Rumsfeld's resignation at this point would encourage people to feel that action has been taken and blame assigned, which is not enough. Our anger should be flowing down the chain of command as well as up - individual officers have a responsibility to disobey and report illegal orders, which did not happen to a great enough extent here. The author also talked about how Rumsfeld has at times been the only person in a senior position in the administration sticking up for civil liberties and rights. Not the average person's impression of him to be sure. I'll try to find the editorial and put it in here.

I voted not sure yet, because I don't think I know enough facts yet to really say. This debacle has really shaken me up though - I think that the consequences from this will be larger and more severe than anyone is currently saying (both domestically and internationally), not to mention the fact that we must now admit that we have more than an image problem. Until there is some humility instead of righteous anger, we'll be walking down the same path. No matter whether there are hundreds of thousands of honorable soldiers, and no matter if foreign propagandists spin this event, we can't escape from the fact that some of our own are no better than those we accuse - and others of our own didn't have the courage to stick their necks out and put a stop to this behavior. That is a real problem, not just an image problem, and we owe it to ourselves to solve this one even though it will involve some pain.

__________________
Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam

OFKU0

If it weren't an election year, I think Bush would have canned him. But , given it is an election year, Bush could have fired him immediately as soon as the pictures came out but didn't. Too late now. Bush would look bad and even more out of the loop than some people think if c.c Rumsfeld get's the boot now.

Did he know what was going on and remained quiet about it. I think so. I think reports of more abuses will continue to surface which will put Dubya in a lose, lose position,..in an election year. It is Bush's election to lose and as long as Kerry doesn't get mired in some past or present scandal, my money is on him.

__________________
" In Canada, you can tell the most blatant lie in a calm voice, and people will believe you over someone who's a little passionate about the truth." David Warren, Western Standard.

almostaugust

Its funny how they have called it 'The Prisoner Abuse Scandal'. Everyone is afraid to use the word 'torture', when clearly thats what most of these pictures depict. Maybe Rummy should resign, he surely hushed up the whole affair for a long time. I cant wait to find out the rest of the material to come out. Ive heard some terrible rumours.

__________________
'And it's been a long December and there's reason to believe
Maybe this year will be better than the last
I can't remember all the times I tried to tell my myself
To hold on to these moments as they pass'

ARTelevision

The fact that the question is even being raised during this crucial time in the history of the world is demonstration only of the politically-motivated desire to dismantle the current administration at any cost to the nation.

__________________
create evolution

Bill O'Rights

Sorry, I thought that was implied. My bad.

__________________
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

ubertuber

Here is the editorial I mentioned. Not saying I entirely agree, but it did say things I hadn't thought of.

Link to Safire Editorial from NY Times

__________________
Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam

Bill O'Rights

That's my point. Right now there is no evidence to say that he (Rumsfeld) knew of the abuse...torture...or not. Rumors are not enough for me to call for the disembowlment of the Bush administration. Give me cold hard facts, and evidence.

__________________
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

Sparhawk

I put "I'm not sure" - I don't think he should resign over this specific scandal - he should resign because of the piss-poor planning and implementation of the Iraq occupation.

That being said, a commander is responsible for the troops under his command, and to see the chain, from their company commander up get slaps on the wrists ticks me off.

__________________
"In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work. It's incredibly hard. It's - and it's hard work. I understand how hard it is. I get the casualty reports every day. I see on the TV screens how hard it is. But it's necessary work. We're making progress. It is hard work."

OFKU0

Now that made me laugh. Talk about blaming others when those who are responsible fail in their responsibilities. I still laughing.

__________________
" In Canada, you can tell the most blatant lie in a calm voice, and people will believe you over someone who's a little passionate about the truth." David Warren, Western Standard.

irateplatypus

If it weren't an election year, I don't think you'd hear many call for his job.

Patience grasshopper. We haven't finished our assessment of who is involved/responsible, no one has even been tried yet. I'm confident the Army will treat this very seriously given the international debacle it has caused.

__________________
If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.

~ Winston Churchill

Bill O'Rights

Normally, I don't often agree with ART, on a political level. This time, however, I have to look at this with the eye of a skeptic, and concede that he may have a point.

It is a fact that I want Bush, and his cronies, out of Washington. But not to the detrement of the country, as a whole. And especially not as a means to benefit the opposing party...at the detriment to the country.

__________________
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

charms

At the very least, the Dems/NYTimes should have waited for these Congressional hearings to finish up before calling for a resignation. Calling for Rumsfeld to resign before he even testified and before all the facts are on the table smacks of political opportunism.

The military guy who wrote the report is testifying today and says there is likely a CIA role. Since the torture/abuse was ostensibly for the purposes of intelligence gathering, it seems probable. Should we be calling for William Tenet to resign? Putting aside all the boring Clinton vs. Bush rhetoric, what single individual has presided over more terrorist attacks and intelligence screwups than Tenet?

African embassy bombings, USS Cole, 9/11, WMD, torture, etc...all on Tenet's watch.

OFKU0

I think using the word 'detriment' in this context is somewhat over the top. All scandals regardless of the severity have a shelf life.

I think this does help the opposition gain political ground but hey,..I don't think something like this was in the slightest bit predictable or even expected. And if Bush loses the election because of it, so be it. He had 4 years to to make the world a better place. If he loses, the world and at the least, the U.S will not fall apart. The U.S might even become a better country, as with the world.

__________________
" In Canada, you can tell the most blatant lie in a calm voice, and people will believe you over someone who's a little passionate about the truth." David Warren, Western Standard.

Stompy

IMO from what I've read, the abuse that went on was as torturous as a college hazing. I wouldn't exactly refer to the humilation that went on as "torture". I think in only one instance a prisoner was injured when they were teasing him w/ the dogs.

Doesn't justify it or anything, but it's not like they were sitting there jabbing soldering irons into their eyes or throwing them into a meat grinder.

[edit]
I honestly haven't heard much about it other than they made the prisoners climb on top of each other naked, and stand in line while other soldiers took pictures, etc.. stuff like that. If there were any actual TORTURE events, I haven't heard of 'em.

__________________
I love lamp.

james t kirk

I am of the camp that thinks that this is no time to play politics. Rumsfeld should NOT resign (though the jury is still out)

But as far as your assertion that this is no worse than a college hazing, Rumsfeld himself stated, "it gets worse"

And includes rape and murder.

That's a long way from any college hazing.

The high number now being bandied around is that there have been 23 MURDERS at these prisons.

OFKU0

Agreed, but for clarity purposes some of those murdered were in Afganistan also.

__________________
" In Canada, you can tell the most blatant lie in a calm voice, and people will believe you over someone who's a little passionate about the truth." David Warren, Western Standard.

crewsor

Nope, I've seen no justification to this point to call for his resignation.

__________________
We all have wings, some of us just don't know why.

tecoyah

He should take Bush with him. Let Colin run the ship for awhile.

__________________
Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

tecoyah

By the way.....anyone remember that Cheney Guy, seems to be missing in action, again.

__________________
Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

Stompy

Thanks for clearing that up for me. I wasn't aware of the murders/rapes!

__________________
I love lamp.

mml

I voted yes on Rumsfeld's resignation. It is not just because of the prisoner abuse, but more due to the fact that I dissagree with his strategy and policy preferences. I believe he encouraged a hasty entrance in to Iraq with a poor strategy for post war initiatives and security. He did not define a clear, attainable goal, a clear and attainable exit stategy nor did he provide the "overwhelming force" that most military experts, including Colin Powell, recommend when taking action. He placed too much emphasis on technology based warfare and not enough on the human element. He also seemed to dissmiss the opinion of any General or advisor who did not agree with his strategy. Rumsfeld has a distiguished and honorable history of service to the United States, but in my opinion he has faltered and I would like him to resign in an honorable fashion.

Here is an editorial by George Will.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...-2004May10.htm


No Flinching From the Facts
By George F. Will
Tuesday, May 11, 2004; Page A19
Listen to the language. It is always a leading indicator of moral confusion.
The lawyer for a soldier charged in the Iraq prison abuse investigation was explaining a photograph. It showed some Americans standing over a pile of naked Iraqis: "Intelligence officers came into the facility, pulled two men out of their cells, took them away, brought them back with a third prisoner, ordered the MPs to undress all of them, and then started interrogating them, and had them . . . in this position where they're all embracing each other."
"Embracing."
The lawyer's client probably will offer -- this should deepen Americans' queasiness -- the Nuremberg defense: I was only obeying orders. If the abuse was the result of orders -- or of the absence of them -- fault must extend up the chain of command.
So, forgive the lawyer's language. But note what it betokens: a flinching from facts. Americans must not flinch from absorbing the photographs of what some Americans did in that prison. And they should not flinch from this fact: That pornography is, almost inevitably, part of what empire looks like. It does not always look like that, and does not only look like that. But empire is always about domination. Domination for self-defense, perhaps. Domination for the good of the dominated, arguably. But domination.
And some people will be corrupted by dominating. That is why the leaders of empires must be watchful. Very watchful. Donald Rumsfeld is clearly shattered by the corruption he tardily comprehended. Testifying to Congress last week, he seemed saturated with a sadness that bespeaks his deep decency and his horror at the vast injury done to the nation by elements of the department he administers. He knows that he failed the president. And he knows that his extraordinary record of government service -- few public careers, including presidential ones, can match Rumsfeld's -- has been tarnished.
How should he, and we, think about what comes next? Consider an axiom, a principle, two questions and then a second axiom.
The first axiom is: When there is no penalty for failure, failures proliferate. Leave aside the question of who or what failed before Sept. 11, 2001. But who lost his or her job because the president's 2003 State of the Union address gave currency to a fraud -- the story of Iraq's attempting to buy uranium in Niger? Or because the primary and only sufficient reason for waging preemptive war -- weapons of mass destruction -- was largely spurious? Or because postwar planning, from failure to anticipate the initial looting to today's insufficient force levels, has been botched? Failures are multiplying because of choices for which no one seems accountable.
The principle is: The response by the nation's government must express horror, shame and contrition proportional to the evil done to others, and the harm done to the nation, by agents of the government.
Americans are almost certainly going to die in violence made worse in Iraq, and not only there, by the substantial aid some Americans, in their torture of Iraqi prisoners, have given to our enemies in this war. And by the appallingly dilatory response to the certain torture and probable murder committed in that prison.
The nation's response must, of course, include swift and public prosecutions. And the destruction of that prison. And punctilious conformity to legal obligations -- and, now, to some optional procedures -- concerning persons in American custody. But this is not enough.
One question is: Are the nation's efforts in the deepening global war -- the world is more menacing than it was a year ago -- helped or hindered by Rumsfeld's continuation as the appointed American most conspicuously identified with the conduct of the war? This is not a simple call. But being experienced, he will know how to make the call. Being honorable, he will so do.
He knows his Macbeth and will recognize the framing of the second question: Were he to resign, would discerning people say that nothing in his public life became him like the leaving of it?
This nation has always needed an ethic about the resignation of public officials. Such an ethic cannot be codified. It must grow in controlling power from precedent to precedent, as an unwritten common law, distilled from the behavior of uncommonly honorable men and women who understand the stakes. A nation, especially one doing the business of empire, needs high officials to be highly attentive to what is done in their departments -- attentive far down the chain of command, as though their very jobs depended on it.
Finally, the second axiom. It is from Charles de Gaulle: The graveyards are full of indispensable men.
georgewill@washpost.com

__________________
Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so."
-Douglas Adams

Locobot

What? resign? No! I mean come on it's not like there was something serious like a blowjob involved.