05-04-2004, 06:37 PM | #1 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: San Jose, CA
|
Two murdered in Iraq, 23 other deaths being investigated
Wow, this story just got a lot worse. Two prisoners are confirmed murdered by a US soldier and a CIA contractor. 23 other deaths in Iraq and Afghanistan are under investigation. Disgusting torture techniques have been confirmed.
What's surprising if you read through this is that: - The Bush Administration has known this since December/January - Even congress wasn't told about the situation This has the potential to be very bad for the Bush administration, both nationally and internationally. Personally, this says to me that Bush's "disgust" at the treatment of the prisoners didn't happen when he got the news in December/January, it happened when the press got the story. This is not going to be good for Bush, he doesn't need powerful Republicans like McCain mad at him. He needs to carry Arizona badly to win the election, which is McCain's home state. Time for an independent investigation, I think. http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...abuse_usa_dc_4 Quote:
|
|
05-04-2004, 10:57 PM | #2 (permalink) |
Banned
|
If Bush knew since December/January, and is only now, now that it's out in the open, saying something about it, that is vile and disgusting.
I hope this burns him. I can't wait for the Bush-lovers in here to beat their heads on the wall over this one. Last edited by analog; 05-04-2004 at 11:07 PM.. |
05-05-2004, 06:48 AM | #4 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: San Jose, CA
|
Quote:
|
|
05-05-2004, 06:51 AM | #5 (permalink) |
Junk
|
I'm not so sure it will pass that quickly. Wolf Blitzer reported yesterday other complaints of abuse that have been alleged in Cuba as well as Afganistan could get a closer look also.
If Bush knew about this and remained silent, that is disturbing to say the least. And Clinton was impeached for getting hummers from some intern slut. Go figure.
__________________
" In Canada, you can tell the most blatant lie in a calm voice, and people will believe you over someone who's a little passionate about the truth." David Warren, Western Standard. |
05-05-2004, 06:57 AM | #6 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: NJ
|
I guess I don't understand the assertion that Bush's knowledge of the events somehow makes his disgust any less genuine. As far as the murders go, it was last year and one of those responsible has already been convicted. Seems that the system is working.
IMO the President doesn't have a responsibility to inform the public that there were crimes committed by military personnel before the investigation and prosecution have concluded. There's a whole system that addresses these situations and his singling them out and drawing attention to them would almost certainly have interrupted or biased that system. Oh, and Clinton had impeachment proceedings brought because he lied under oath not because he got a blow job. Jeesh.
__________________
Strive to be more curious than ignorant. |
05-05-2004, 07:50 AM | #7 (permalink) |
Upright
|
So that's what mercenaries are being called nowadays, private contracters. Kinda makes it hard for the public to distinguish between armed forces and truck drivers don't it? Afterall they both fall under the term "private contracter". Wonder why they do that?
|
05-05-2004, 09:58 AM | #8 (permalink) |
Dubya
Location: VA
|
What bothers me is that ABC News had this info and the pictures before the President's press conference, but was asked to sit tight on it. And if I have the timeline correct, ABC only released it because BBC did first.
__________________
"In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work. It's incredibly hard. It's - and it's hard work. I understand how hard it is. I get the casualty reports every day. I see on the TV screens how hard it is. But it's necessary work. We're making progress. It is hard work." |
05-05-2004, 10:14 AM | #9 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: NJ
|
Quote:
__________________
Strive to be more curious than ignorant. |
|
05-05-2004, 10:51 AM | #10 (permalink) | |
Muffled
Location: Camazotz
|
Quote:
__________________
it's quiet in here |
|
05-05-2004, 10:58 AM | #11 (permalink) | |
Dubya
Location: VA
|
Quote:
Aside from a logistical standpoint (needing more people to handle press inquiries and so forth), how does national and international attention impede an investigation? If that was their sincere motive, well, too bad - plenty of ordinary citizens get thrust into the spotlight without their consent and they seem to handle it okay. I have a tendency to distrust this Administration's motives (I wonder why!). I'm glad to have been proved wrong in this case - if it is indeed for the reason Kadath stated.
__________________
"In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work. It's incredibly hard. It's - and it's hard work. I understand how hard it is. I get the casualty reports every day. I see on the TV screens how hard it is. But it's necessary work. We're making progress. It is hard work." |
|
05-05-2004, 12:46 PM | #13 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: San Jose, CA
|
Quote:
|
|
05-06-2004, 05:04 AM | #14 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: NJ
|
Quote:
As far as Sparhawk's comment about attention not impeding an investigation, it absolutely does. Discrete inquiries can be made when there's no attention, people are more forthcoming if they aren't convinced that international or public pressure is mounting for scapegoats, etc. Just because "plenty of ordinary citizens get thrust into the spotlight without their consent" and handle it ok doesn't mean it doesn't influence the outcome and doesn't increase the risk of unfair trials.
__________________
Strive to be more curious than ignorant. |
|
05-06-2004, 05:37 AM | #15 (permalink) |
Illusionary
|
Is it just me, or is the fact that these acts have continued to this day not show a disregard of the problem by those in charge? I personally find the "sweeping under the rug" aspect, unfortunate and decieving. It also makes me wonder what is still hidden from view.
As far as the Clinton Lying under oath comment, it is true. This is most likely why both Bush and Cheney refused to take the oath during "interviews" with the 9/11 commision. I am sorry but, in my opinion, lying to the entire country to gain support for a war which kills hundreds of American citizens is slightly more revolting than lying about a blow job.
__________________
Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha |
05-06-2004, 05:43 AM | #16 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: NJ
|
Quote:
In fact, if you believe the Bob Woodward account of Tenet claiming "It's a slam dunk" he was completely mislead. That is far from lying. The assertion that "these acts have continued to this day" needs some substantiation I think. How do you know these things are occuring?
__________________
Strive to be more curious than ignorant. |
|
05-06-2004, 07:33 AM | #17 (permalink) |
can't help but laugh
Location: dar al-harb
|
you have a strong case in proving that he was wrong but you'd have a much tougher time proving he lied.
we really don't know if those acts are continuing to this day. true, more pictures are showing up... but that doesn't mean they're taken a few hours before they're put on the air. the pictures have no context. the content of the pictures is enough to garner my condemnation, but we have no idea of the temporal context.
__________________
If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves. ~ Winston Churchill |
05-06-2004, 11:13 AM | #18 (permalink) |
Illusionary
|
I have to ask (although I am sure I will regret it), How much circumstantial evidence would it require for a hardcore republican to question the ethics and integrity of this administration?
The accumulation of denials, and dodges. Combined with the story line changes just makes it so obvious to me, but perhaps I am paranoid in this regard. If you folks honestly believe this administration has been forthcoming, and honest with the population in this issue, or any number of others, I guess I am in the wrong in your eyes. That is O.K. with me. I will again, agree to disagree.
__________________
Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha |
05-06-2004, 11:19 AM | #19 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: NJ
|
Quote:
__________________
Strive to be more curious than ignorant. |
|
05-06-2004, 12:47 PM | #20 (permalink) | |
Illusionary
|
Quote:
If someone you knew, made statements that you "felt" were incorrect. And if the likely reason for the "incorrect" statements was to decieve you, would you trust them? If the life of your child, or indeed yourself, were placed in the hands of this individual, would you be comfortable? These are the questions to ask yourself, and place into whatever context fits your understanding of Power.
__________________
Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha |
|
05-06-2004, 05:32 PM | #21 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: San Jose, CA
|
Quote:
Complaints about the prison have been pouring in for quite a while, so I don't see any need for secrecy here. Secrecy belongs in cases of National Security, not to cover up National Embarassments. It's a tool for security, not public relations. Any other use is abuse. |
|
05-07-2004, 04:52 AM | #22 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: NJ
|
Quote:
__________________
Strive to be more curious than ignorant. |
|
05-07-2004, 04:57 AM | #23 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: NJ
|
Quote:
__________________
Strive to be more curious than ignorant. |
|
05-09-2004, 03:28 AM | #24 (permalink) |
Illusionary
|
If you honestly believe that, in the context of the current situation, so be it. I guess we simply have a different understanding of the resposibilities of government, and accountability. I simply have less tolerance for incompetence in the people elected to guide my country.
__________________
Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha |
05-09-2004, 06:23 AM | #25 (permalink) |
follower of the child's crusade?
|
The American's arent really any worse than Saddam Hussain and his mob I suppose, and this was always understood by the Iraqi's, I think these things don't shock them because they always knew... they shock American civilians because some peopel genuinely believed that this was a moral war and that this was about the liberation of Iraq. It must be hard to carry on all the "I support our troops" stuff if you see them as torturers rather than liberators.
I think it is important to understand there are many soldiers who have not committed war crimes in Iraq, but I think we do understand that while the torturers may be a minority, they were allowed to carry on doing these things by a majority that turned away, didnt look, didnt stop them... even if the acts of toture were abhorent to the majority of soldiers, there is also a responsibility to do something other than look away in shame or disgust when confronted by this. But I do feel we have to have some perspective... the percentage of American troops who have committed war crimes could be as low as 5%, even 2%... it is not all American soldiers who are like this... every society, Western or Eastern, contains people who are monsterous, and when they are given the chance they will drink blood.
__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas |
05-09-2004, 07:52 AM | #26 (permalink) |
Banned
Location: Texas - The state that all other states wish they could be
|
Two thoughts - Haven't there been pictures of Brits doing these things too?
And when were these pictures taken? I know it came out now, but do we know for sure that all of this is still happening? I mean, a few of the people who comitted the crime are back in America and not in Iraq. |
05-09-2004, 08:21 AM | #27 (permalink) | |
follower of the child's crusade?
|
Quote:
__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas |
|
05-09-2004, 08:38 AM | #28 (permalink) | ||
Junkie
Location: San Jose, CA
|
Quote:
Yes. I hope you aren't implying that that excuses the USA in any way. Quote:
Serious investigation into the torture began in January, and I'm sure that since then the USA has played absolutely by the rules in Iraq. So, broadly speaking the abuse seems to have occured from September to December 2003. I am absolutely certain that no abuse is going on now. I imagine that the prisoners are *very* well treated at the moment. At minimum right now, I would say that General Miller should be relieved of his command. It is his reorganization of the interrogation techniques that led to the torture. At minimum, he is directly responsbile, and the responsibility may go higher. Unless a general is sacked out of this investigation, I will not believe that we are serious about the issue. A bunch of reservists do *not* torture people over a three month period without some encouragement from the top, and without a command structure that permits it. Even if Miller is guilty of just creating a bad command structure without proper supervision, and knew nothing of the torture itself, he should still lose his job. (Sorry, ranted a little off your original question there. ) |
||
05-09-2004, 09:06 AM | #29 (permalink) | |
Banned
Location: Texas - The state that all other states wish they could be
|
Quote:
In any event, my statement was in regards to my misreading of Strange Famous's statement. |
|
05-09-2004, 12:04 PM | #30 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Toronto
|
Quote:
Maybe not. Only one thing is for sure. Iraq has truly turned into a nightmare. I would imagine that even Bush, if he could go back in time, would not have chosen a course of invading Iraq. |
|
05-09-2004, 04:47 PM | #31 (permalink) |
Banned
Location: Texas - The state that all other states wish they could be
|
I disagree. I don't think it's turned into the hell hole that it's portrayed to be. Iraq is rejuvinating and while there seem to be attacks daily they still seem to be isolated to only 2 major cities: Fallujah and Baghdad.
I do think that if I had been President and I could change things I'd go knocking on Iran's door first. They're the real threat. But oh the political suicide of attacking a country that couldn't be knocked over in a week like Iraq. Democrats crying foul that it's turned into Vietnam. Kind of like Iraq, but with thousands dead. |
05-09-2004, 05:10 PM | #32 (permalink) | ||
Junkie
Location: San Jose, CA
|
Quote:
http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com/ Quote:
Honestly, I don't know much about Vietnam in detail, it predates me. I'm going to look around for a good factual book on it. Anyone have any suggestions? Seems like a good summer read given the current situation. here: http://www.independent.org/tii/news/040503Marina.html is an interesting article comparing Vietnam and Iraq. |
||
05-09-2004, 05:41 PM | #33 (permalink) |
Banned
Location: Texas - The state that all other states wish they could be
|
Thanks. That really gives me a perspective on the ordeal.
On the Vietnam thing I think that Leubsdorf's article on it said it best - While not particularly Vietnam-esque in death count or bloody it does stand dangerous to the president's ability to rule. |
Tags |
deaths, investigated, iraq, murdered |
|
|