Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community  

Go Back   Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community > The Academy > Tilted Politics

Notices

 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 05-04-2004, 06:37 PM   #1 (permalink)
Junkie
 
HarmlessRabbit's Avatar
 
Location: San Jose, CA
Two murdered in Iraq, 23 other deaths being investigated

Wow, this story just got a lot worse. Two prisoners are confirmed murdered by a US soldier and a CIA contractor. 23 other deaths in Iraq and Afghanistan are under investigation. Disgusting torture techniques have been confirmed.

What's surprising if you read through this is that:
- The Bush Administration has known this since December/January
- Even congress wasn't told about the situation

This has the potential to be very bad for the Bush administration, both nationally and internationally. Personally, this says to me that Bush's "disgust" at the treatment of the prisoners didn't happen when he got the news in December/January, it happened when the press got the story.

This is not going to be good for Bush, he doesn't need powerful Republicans like McCain mad at him. He needs to carry Arizona badly to win the election, which is McCain's home state.

Time for an independent investigation, I think.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...abuse_usa_dc_4

Quote:
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Two Iraqi prisoners were murdered by Americans and 23 other deaths are being investigated in Iraq (news - web sites) and Afghanistan (news - web sites), the United States revealed on Tuesday as the Bush administration tried to contain growing outrage over the abuse of Iraqi detainees.

"The actions of the soldiers in those photographs are totally unacceptable and un-American," Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld said of humiliating images in the media of Iraqi prisoners. "Any who engaged in such action let down their comrades who serve honorably each day and they let down their country."

Army officials said the military had investigated the deaths of 25 prisoners held by American forces in Iraq and Afghanistan and determined that an Army soldier and a CIA (news - web sites) contractor murdered two prisoners. Most of the deaths occurred in Iraq.

An Army official said a soldier was convicted in the U.S. military justice system of homicide for shooting a prisoner to death in September 2003 at a detention center in Iraq.

The official, speaking on condition of anonymity, said a private contractor who worked for the CIA was found to have committed the other homicide against a prisoner.

Secretary of State Colin Powell (news - web sites), at the United Nations (news - web sites) for consultations on the Middle East, said only a "small number" of American troops had been involved in the abuse and vowed wrongdoers would be quickly brought to justice.

"I can assure you that no stone will be left unturned to make sure that justice is done and to make sure that nothing like this ever happens again," he said.

President Bush (news - web sites), campaigning in Ohio, did not mention the abuse but his National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice (news - web sites) again said the president was disgusted and outraged and had demanded those responsible be held accountable.

"The president has told the secretary of defense that he expects people to be held accountable, and that he wants, too, to know that this is not a systemic problem," Rice said.

"In other words, quite apart from the specific cases of those particular photographs, Americans do not dehumanize other people. That is not why we're in Iraq. We're in Iraq to liberate a people, to help them," she added.

White House spokesman Scott McClellan told reporters traveling with the president that Bush became aware of the allegations of abuse at the prison some time after the incidents occurred, late December or early January. It was unclear from McClellan when exactly the president was ware.

NEW ALLEGATIONS

Six U.S. soldiers have been reprimanded and six others face criminal charges in connection with abuses at the Abu Ghraib prison outside Baghdad, but Iraqi prisoners have complained of inhumane treatment by U.S. troops at other centers as well. The allegations first surfaced on Jan. 13 but were only made public last week.

The new U.S. commander overseeing military-run prisons in Iraq, Maj. Gen. Geoffrey Miller, said there are an estimated 8,000 detainees, about half of them at Abu Ghraib. The two other main prisons are at the southern port city of Umm Qasr and at the Baghdad International Airport, The Washington Post reported on its Web site.

Miller said the U.S. military runs 11 other detention facilities in Iraq where prisoners can be held for up to 14 days before a decision is made to release them or transfer them to one of the three main prisons, the newspaper said.

Images of Iraqis prisoners stripped of their clothes and being humiliated and abused have badly damaged U.S. prestige and credibility, especially in the Arab world. They have severely dented the U.S. argument that it invaded Iraq to bring democracy and human rights to a nation brutalized by a vicious dictator, former President Saddam Hussein (news - web sites).

Shocking excerpts from a report on the abuse completed on March 3 by Maj. Gen. Antonio Taguba were likely to further stoke fury at home and abroad.

"Between October and December 2003, at the Abu Ghraib Confinement Facility (BCCF), numerous incidents of sadistic, blatant, and wanton criminal abuses were inflicted on several detainees," the report said.

"This systemic and illegal abuse of detainees was intentionally perpetrated by several members of the military police guard force (372nd Military Police Company, 320th Military Police Battalion, 800th MP Brigade), in Tier (section) 1-A of the Abu Ghraib Prison (BCCF)."

Taguba said several detainees had credibly described acts of abuse, including:

* Breaking chemical lights and pouring the phosphoric liquid on detainees

* Beating detainees with a broom handle and a chair

* Sodomizing a detainee with a chemical light and perhaps a broom stick

* Arranging naked male detainees in a pile and then jumping on them

* Forcing detainees to remove their clothing and keeping them naked for several days at a time

* Forcing groups of male detainees to masturbate themselves while being photographed and videotaped

ANGRY LAWMAKERS

On Capitol Hill, angry Republicans and Democrats denounced the abuses. The Senate Intelligence Committee scheduled a closed hearing for Wednesday.

"The prisoner abuse is so disgusting, so degrading, that I think humanity has been hurt broadly," said Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist, a Tennessee Republican. He said it could undercut U.S. efforts to bring democracy to Iraq.

Sen. John McCain (news, bio, voting record), an Arizona Republican and committee member who was a prisoner of war in Vietnam, joined many lawmakers in complaining that Rumsfeld and other top Pentagon (news - web sites) officials failed to inform Congress of the situation.
HarmlessRabbit is offline  
Old 05-04-2004, 10:57 PM   #2 (permalink)
Banned
 
If Bush knew since December/January, and is only now, now that it's out in the open, saying something about it, that is vile and disgusting.

I hope this burns him.

I can't wait for the Bush-lovers in here to beat their heads on the wall over this one.

Last edited by analog; 05-04-2004 at 11:07 PM..
analog is offline  
Old 05-05-2004, 04:47 AM   #3 (permalink)
Crazy
 
Location: City London UK
This story will pass quickly, they're been less responce to it in Iraq then there was when they shut down Sadr's news paper, what does that tell you?
__________________
"To live outside the law you must be honest." - Bob Dylan
Billy Ocean is offline  
Old 05-05-2004, 06:48 AM   #4 (permalink)
Junkie
 
HarmlessRabbit's Avatar
 
Location: San Jose, CA
Quote:
Originally posted by Billy Ocean
This story will pass quickly, they're been less responce to it in Iraq then there was when they shut down Sadr's news paper, what does that tell you?
That the Iraqis are used to being tortured and abused and that they are thinking "meet the new boss, same as the old boss"?
HarmlessRabbit is offline  
Old 05-05-2004, 06:51 AM   #5 (permalink)
Junk
 
I'm not so sure it will pass that quickly. Wolf Blitzer reported yesterday other complaints of abuse that have been alleged in Cuba as well as Afganistan could get a closer look also.

If Bush knew about this and remained silent, that is disturbing to say the least. And Clinton was impeached for getting hummers from some intern slut. Go figure.
__________________
" In Canada, you can tell the most blatant lie in a calm voice, and people will believe you over someone who's a little passionate about the truth." David Warren, Western Standard.
OFKU0 is offline  
Old 05-05-2004, 06:57 AM   #6 (permalink)
Junkie
 
Location: NJ
I guess I don't understand the assertion that Bush's knowledge of the events somehow makes his disgust any less genuine. As far as the murders go, it was last year and one of those responsible has already been convicted. Seems that the system is working.

IMO the President doesn't have a responsibility to inform the public that there were crimes committed by military personnel before the investigation and prosecution have concluded. There's a whole system that addresses these situations and his singling them out and drawing attention to them would almost certainly have interrupted or biased that system.

Oh, and Clinton had impeachment proceedings brought because he lied under oath not because he got a blow job. Jeesh.
__________________
Strive to be more curious than ignorant.
onetime2 is offline  
Old 05-05-2004, 07:50 AM   #7 (permalink)
Upright
 
So that's what mercenaries are being called nowadays, private contracters. Kinda makes it hard for the public to distinguish between armed forces and truck drivers don't it? Afterall they both fall under the term "private contracter". Wonder why they do that?
Shard is offline  
Old 05-05-2004, 09:58 AM   #8 (permalink)
Dubya
 
Location: VA
What bothers me is that ABC News had this info and the pictures before the President's press conference, but was asked to sit tight on it. And if I have the timeline correct, ABC only released it because BBC did first.
__________________
"In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work. It's incredibly hard. It's - and it's hard work. I understand how hard it is. I get the casualty reports every day. I see on the TV screens how hard it is. But it's necessary work. We're making progress. It is hard work."
Sparhawk is offline  
Old 05-05-2004, 10:14 AM   #9 (permalink)
Junkie
 
Location: NJ
Quote:
Originally posted by Sparhawk
What bothers me is that ABC News had this info and the pictures before the President's press conference, but was asked to sit tight on it. And if I have the timeline correct, ABC only released it because BBC did first.
Still not sure why this is a problem. If the thinking was that national and international attention would adversely impact the investigation and possible prosecution, then why wouldn't they agree to sit on the story for a little while?
__________________
Strive to be more curious than ignorant.
onetime2 is offline  
Old 05-05-2004, 10:51 AM   #10 (permalink)
Muffled
 
Kadath's Avatar
 
Location: Camazotz
Quote:
Originally posted by onetime2
Still not sure why this is a problem. If the thinking was that national and international attention would adversely impact the investigation and possible prosecution, then why wouldn't they agree to sit on the story for a little while?
Actually, I heard they asked them to sit on it because State was worried there would be retribution against the hostages, which is reasonable. I don't have a problem with stories going on the back burner because of security concerns, so long as they don't die back there.
__________________
it's quiet in here
Kadath is offline  
Old 05-05-2004, 10:58 AM   #11 (permalink)
Dubya
 
Location: VA
Quote:
Originally posted by Kadath
Actually, I heard they asked them to sit on it because State was worried there would be retribution against the hostages, which is reasonable. I don't have a problem with stories going on the back burner because of security concerns, so long as they don't die back there.
I hadn't heard this. Thanks.

Aside from a logistical standpoint (needing more people to handle press inquiries and so forth), how does national and international attention impede an investigation? If that was their sincere motive, well, too bad - plenty of ordinary citizens get thrust into the spotlight without their consent and they seem to handle it okay. I have a tendency to distrust this Administration's motives (I wonder why!). I'm glad to have been proved wrong in this case - if it is indeed for the reason Kadath stated.
__________________
"In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work. It's incredibly hard. It's - and it's hard work. I understand how hard it is. I get the casualty reports every day. I see on the TV screens how hard it is. But it's necessary work. We're making progress. It is hard work."
Sparhawk is offline  
Old 05-05-2004, 11:03 AM   #12 (permalink)
Right Now
 
Location: Home
Good comments by all.

There are some awful people out there, and some of them are in positions of authority. It seems that the system is working, although not at the pace most of us would like.

The criminals will get what they deserve.
Peetster is offline  
Old 05-05-2004, 12:46 PM   #13 (permalink)
Junkie
 
HarmlessRabbit's Avatar
 
Location: San Jose, CA
Quote:
Originally posted by onetime2
IMO the President doesn't have a responsibility to inform the public that there were crimes committed by military personnel before the investigation and prosecution have concluded. There's a whole system that addresses these situations and his singling them out and drawing attention to them would almost certainly have interrupted or biased that system.
Oh, I agree with regards to the public. If you read to the end, you'll see that congress is pretty upset that they weren't kept in the loop. Not just the democrats in congress, but the republicans too.
HarmlessRabbit is offline  
Old 05-06-2004, 05:04 AM   #14 (permalink)
Junkie
 
Location: NJ
Quote:
Originally posted by HarmlessRabbit
Oh, I agree with regards to the public. If you read to the end, you'll see that congress is pretty upset that they weren't kept in the loop. Not just the democrats in congress, but the republicans too.
I also don't have a problem with Congress hearing about it later. There are plenty of attention whores in Congress who aren't above using sensitive material to better their own personal (or party) standing. While I wish it was true that everyone would put the national good above their own interests, we know that doesn't always happen.

As far as Sparhawk's comment about attention not impeding an investigation, it absolutely does. Discrete inquiries can be made when there's no attention, people are more forthcoming if they aren't convinced that international or public pressure is mounting for scapegoats, etc. Just because "plenty of ordinary citizens get thrust into the spotlight without their consent" and handle it ok doesn't mean it doesn't influence the outcome and doesn't increase the risk of unfair trials.
__________________
Strive to be more curious than ignorant.
onetime2 is offline  
Old 05-06-2004, 05:37 AM   #15 (permalink)
Illusionary
 
tecoyah's Avatar
 
Is it just me, or is the fact that these acts have continued to this day not show a disregard of the problem by those in charge? I personally find the "sweeping under the rug" aspect, unfortunate and decieving. It also makes me wonder what is still hidden from view.
As far as the Clinton Lying under oath comment, it is true. This is most likely why both Bush and Cheney refused to take the oath during "interviews" with the 9/11 commision. I am sorry but, in my opinion, lying to the entire country to gain support for a war which kills hundreds of American citizens is slightly more revolting than lying about a blow job.
__________________
Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha
tecoyah is offline  
Old 05-06-2004, 05:43 AM   #16 (permalink)
Junkie
 
Location: NJ
Quote:
Originally posted by tecoyah
Is it just me, or is the fact that these acts have continued to this day not show a disregard of the problem by those in charge? I personally find the "sweeping under the rug" aspect, unfortunate and decieving. It also makes me wonder what is still hidden from view.
As far as the Clinton Lying under oath comment, it is true. This is most likely why both Bush and Cheney refused to take the oath during "interviews" with the 9/11 commision. I am sorry but, in my opinion, lying to the entire country to gain support for a war which kills hundreds of American citizens is slightly more revolting than lying about a blow job.
Again, you cannot possibly prove that Bush was lying since you don't know that he knew Hussein didn't have WMDs.

In fact, if you believe the Bob Woodward account of Tenet claiming "It's a slam dunk" he was completely mislead. That is far from lying.

The assertion that "these acts have continued to this day" needs some substantiation I think. How do you know these things are occuring?
__________________
Strive to be more curious than ignorant.
onetime2 is offline  
Old 05-06-2004, 07:33 AM   #17 (permalink)
can't help but laugh
 
irateplatypus's Avatar
 
Location: dar al-harb
you have a strong case in proving that he was wrong but you'd have a much tougher time proving he lied.

we really don't know if those acts are continuing to this day. true, more pictures are showing up... but that doesn't mean they're taken a few hours before they're put on the air. the pictures have no context. the content of the pictures is enough to garner my condemnation, but we have no idea of the temporal context.
__________________
If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.

~ Winston Churchill
irateplatypus is offline  
Old 05-06-2004, 11:13 AM   #18 (permalink)
Illusionary
 
tecoyah's Avatar
 
I have to ask (although I am sure I will regret it), How much circumstantial evidence would it require for a hardcore republican to question the ethics and integrity of this administration?

The accumulation of denials, and dodges. Combined with the story line changes just makes it so obvious to me, but perhaps I am paranoid in this regard. If you folks honestly believe this administration has been forthcoming, and honest with the population in this issue, or any number of others, I guess I am in the wrong in your eyes. That is O.K. with me.
I will again, agree to disagree.
__________________
Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha
tecoyah is offline  
Old 05-06-2004, 11:19 AM   #19 (permalink)
Junkie
 
Location: NJ
Quote:
Originally posted by tecoyah
I have to ask (although I am sure I will regret it), How much circumstantial evidence would it require for a hardcore republican to question the ethics and integrity of this administration?
It would only take one bit of firm evidence for me to believe it since most administrations are ethically challenged by their very nature. All I have seen to discredit Bush so far is an accumulation of petty, undocumented, accusations which, besides the fact that they can't be proved, are logically flawed.
__________________
Strive to be more curious than ignorant.
onetime2 is offline  
Old 05-06-2004, 12:47 PM   #20 (permalink)
Illusionary
 
tecoyah's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally posted by irateplatypus
you have a strong case in proving that he was wrong but you'd have a much tougher time proving he lied.

So, out of curiousity. If Someone "made a mistake", or was wrong. And the result of that mistake was the death of hundreds of people, would you trust them to continue making such descisions?

If someone you knew, made statements that you "felt" were incorrect. And if the likely reason for the "incorrect" statements was to decieve you, would you trust them?

If the life of your child, or indeed yourself, were placed in the hands of this individual, would you be comfortable?

These are the questions to ask yourself, and place into whatever context fits your understanding of Power.
__________________
Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha
tecoyah is offline  
Old 05-06-2004, 05:32 PM   #21 (permalink)
Junkie
 
HarmlessRabbit's Avatar
 
Location: San Jose, CA
Quote:
Originally posted by onetime2
I also don't have a problem with Congress hearing about it later. There are plenty of attention whores in Congress who aren't above using sensitive material to better their own personal (or party) standing. While I wish it was true that everyone would put the national good above their own interests, we know that doesn't always happen.
While I agree with you in general about attention whores in congress, I don't think Bill Frist and John McCain would be complaining if they didn't think congress should have justifiably been notified. This makes them look bad as well as Bush, so I think the secrecy was unfounded.

Complaints about the prison have been pouring in for quite a while, so I don't see any need for secrecy here. Secrecy belongs in cases of National Security, not to cover up National Embarassments. It's a tool for security, not public relations. Any other use is abuse.
HarmlessRabbit is offline  
Old 05-07-2004, 04:52 AM   #22 (permalink)
Junkie
 
Location: NJ
Quote:
Originally posted by HarmlessRabbit
While I agree with you in general about attention whores in congress, I don't think Bill Frist and John McCain would be complaining if they didn't think congress should have justifiably been notified. This makes them look bad as well as Bush, so I think the secrecy was unfounded.

Complaints about the prison have been pouring in for quite a while, so I don't see any need for secrecy here. Secrecy belongs in cases of National Security, not to cover up National Embarassments. It's a tool for security, not public relations. Any other use is abuse.
McCain et al would look worse if they knew about it and nothing was accomplished by the time the story broke. These things aren't dealt with instantly and it takes time to get them under control and to investigate/punish those responsible. It appears that things were being done to deal with the abuse even before the story broke. If these abuses were being tolerated when they were known to be occurring that's a different story, but until I see evidence of that happening I am fine with how the process was used.
__________________
Strive to be more curious than ignorant.
onetime2 is offline  
Old 05-07-2004, 04:57 AM   #23 (permalink)
Junkie
 
Location: NJ
Quote:
Originally posted by tecoyah
So, out of curiousity. If Someone "made a mistake", or was wrong. And the result of that mistake was the death of hundreds of people, would you trust them to continue making such descisions?

If someone you knew, made statements that you "felt" were incorrect. And if the likely reason for the "incorrect" statements was to decieve you, would you trust them?

If the life of your child, or indeed yourself, were placed in the hands of this individual, would you be comfortable?

These are the questions to ask yourself, and place into whatever context fits your understanding of Power.
So long as the conclusions were reached with reasonable expectations of the data presented then I have no problem with it. There are plenty of instances where I look at information and come to one conclusion while someone else comes to another. I don't fault them for coming to the wrong conclusion if the evidence could point you in that way and there isn't significant reason to think it's wrong.
__________________
Strive to be more curious than ignorant.
onetime2 is offline  
Old 05-09-2004, 03:28 AM   #24 (permalink)
Illusionary
 
tecoyah's Avatar
 
If you honestly believe that, in the context of the current situation, so be it. I guess we simply have a different understanding of the resposibilities of government, and accountability. I simply have less tolerance for incompetence in the people elected to guide my country.
__________________
Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha
tecoyah is offline  
Old 05-09-2004, 06:23 AM   #25 (permalink)
follower of the child's crusade?
 
The American's arent really any worse than Saddam Hussain and his mob I suppose, and this was always understood by the Iraqi's, I think these things don't shock them because they always knew... they shock American civilians because some peopel genuinely believed that this was a moral war and that this was about the liberation of Iraq. It must be hard to carry on all the "I support our troops" stuff if you see them as torturers rather than liberators.

I think it is important to understand there are many soldiers who have not committed war crimes in Iraq, but I think we do understand that while the torturers may be a minority, they were allowed to carry on doing these things by a majority that turned away, didnt look, didnt stop them... even if the acts of toture were abhorent to the majority of soldiers, there is also a responsibility to do something other than look away in shame or disgust when confronted by this.

But I do feel we have to have some perspective... the percentage of American troops who have committed war crimes could be as low as 5%, even 2%... it is not all American soldiers who are like this... every society, Western or Eastern, contains people who are monsterous, and when they are given the chance they will drink blood.
__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas
Strange Famous is offline  
Old 05-09-2004, 07:52 AM   #26 (permalink)
Banned
 
Location: Texas - The state that all other states wish they could be
Two thoughts - Haven't there been pictures of Brits doing these things too?

And when were these pictures taken? I know it came out now, but do we know for sure that all of this is still happening? I mean, a few of the people who comitted the crime are back in America and not in Iraq.
BlueGoose is offline  
Old 05-09-2004, 08:21 AM   #27 (permalink)
follower of the child's crusade?
 
Quote:
Originally posted by BlueGoose
Two thoughts - Haven't there been pictures of Brits doing these things too?

Yes, and although some people are claiming the British photo's are fake my feeling is that they are probably genuine.
__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas
Strange Famous is offline  
Old 05-09-2004, 08:38 AM   #28 (permalink)
Junkie
 
HarmlessRabbit's Avatar
 
Location: San Jose, CA
Quote:
Originally posted by BlueGoose
Two thoughts - Haven't there been pictures of Brits doing these things too?


Yes. I hope you aren't implying that that excuses the USA in any way.

Quote:
And when were these pictures taken? I know it came out now, but do we know for sure that all of this is still happening? I mean, a few of the people who comitted the crime are back in America and not in Iraq.
It is thought that the pictures were taken after August 2003, which is when General Geoffrey Miller took over the prison. Miller had been in charge of Guantonomo, and he is the one who thought it would be a good idea to get the soldiers involved with interrogations.

Serious investigation into the torture began in January, and I'm sure that since then the USA has played absolutely by the rules in Iraq. So, broadly speaking the abuse seems to have occured from September to December 2003.

I am absolutely certain that no abuse is going on now. I imagine that the prisoners are *very* well treated at the moment.

At minimum right now, I would say that General Miller should be relieved of his command. It is his reorganization of the interrogation techniques that led to the torture. At minimum, he is directly responsbile, and the responsibility may go higher.

Unless a general is sacked out of this investigation, I will not believe that we are serious about the issue. A bunch of reservists do *not* torture people over a three month period without some encouragement from the top, and without a command structure that permits it. Even if Miller is guilty of just creating a bad command structure without proper supervision, and knew nothing of the torture itself, he should still lose his job.

(Sorry, ranted a little off your original question there. )
HarmlessRabbit is offline  
Old 05-09-2004, 09:06 AM   #29 (permalink)
Banned
 
Location: Texas - The state that all other states wish they could be
Quote:
Originally posted by HarmlessRabbit
[B]Yes. I hope you aren't implying that that excuses the USA in any way.
Never - I am a Republican myself and some of my friends point out what Saddam has done and what we have done is miniscule in comparison, but I thinbk it's bogus to try to excuse evil simply because it's the lesser of two.

In any event, my statement was in regards to my misreading of Strange Famous's statement.
BlueGoose is offline  
Old 05-09-2004, 12:04 PM   #30 (permalink)
Junkie
 
james t kirk's Avatar
 
Location: Toronto
Quote:
Originally posted by BlueGoose
Never - I am a Republican myself and some of my friends point out what Saddam has done and what we have done is miniscule in comparison,
Maybe...

Maybe not.

Only one thing is for sure.

Iraq has truly turned into a nightmare.

I would imagine that even Bush, if he could go back in time, would not have chosen a course of invading Iraq.
james t kirk is offline  
Old 05-09-2004, 04:47 PM   #31 (permalink)
Banned
 
Location: Texas - The state that all other states wish they could be
I disagree. I don't think it's turned into the hell hole that it's portrayed to be. Iraq is rejuvinating and while there seem to be attacks daily they still seem to be isolated to only 2 major cities: Fallujah and Baghdad.
I do think that if I had been President and I could change things I'd go knocking on Iran's door first. They're the real threat. But oh the political suicide of attacking a country that couldn't be knocked over in a week like Iraq. Democrats crying foul that it's turned into Vietnam. Kind of like Iraq, but with thousands dead.
BlueGoose is offline  
Old 05-09-2004, 05:10 PM   #32 (permalink)
Junkie
 
HarmlessRabbit's Avatar
 
Location: San Jose, CA
Quote:
Originally posted by BlueGoose
I disagree. I don't think it's turned into the hell hole that it's portrayed to be. Iraq is rejuvinating and while there seem to be attacks daily they still seem to be isolated to only 2 major cities: Fallujah and Baghdad.
here's a pretty good blog from an Iraqi in Iraq:
http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com/
Quote:
There was a time when people here felt sorry for the troops. No matter what one's attitude was towards the occupation, there were moments of pity towards the troops, regardless of their nationality. We would see them suffering the Iraqi sun, obviously wishing they were somewhere else and somehow, that vulnerability made them seem less monstrous and more human. That time has passed. People look at troops now and see the pictures of Abu Ghraib… and we burn with shame and anger and frustration at not being able to do something. Now that the world knows that the torture has been going on since the very beginning, do people finally understand what happened in Falloojeh?
So yeah, a populace who doesn't want us there and an american public that is tiring of all the scandal and mismanagement, it does sound like Vietnam.

Honestly, I don't know much about Vietnam in detail, it predates me. I'm going to look around for a good factual book on it. Anyone have any suggestions? Seems like a good summer read given the current situation.

here:
http://www.independent.org/tii/news/040503Marina.html
is an interesting article comparing Vietnam and Iraq.
HarmlessRabbit is offline  
Old 05-09-2004, 05:41 PM   #33 (permalink)
Banned
 
Location: Texas - The state that all other states wish they could be
Thanks. That really gives me a perspective on the ordeal.

On the Vietnam thing I think that Leubsdorf's article on it said it best - While not particularly Vietnam-esque in death count or bloody it does stand dangerous to the president's ability to rule.
BlueGoose is offline  
 

Tags
deaths, investigated, iraq, murdered


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 02:53 AM.

Tilted Forum Project

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
© 2002-2012 Tilted Forum Project

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183 184 185 186 187 188 189 190 191 192 193 194 195 196 197 198 199 200 201 202 203 204 205 206 207 208 209 210 211 212 213 214 215 216 217 218 219 220 221 222 223 224 225 226 227 228 229 230 231 232 233 234 235 236 237 238 239 240 241 242 243 244 245 246 247 248 249 250 251 252 253 254 255 256 257 258 259 260 261 262 263 264 265 266 267 268 269 270 271 272 273 274 275 276 277 278 279 280 281 282 283 284 285 286 287 288 289 290 291 292 293 294 295 296 297 298 299 300 301 302 303 304 305 306 307 308 309 310 311 312 313 314 315 316 317 318 319 320 321 322 323 324 325 326 327 328 329 330 331 332 333 334 335 336 337 338 339 340 341 342 343 344 345 346 347 348 349 350 351 352 353 354 355 356 357 358 359 360