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Old 05-04-2004, 06:37 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Two murdered in Iraq, 23 other deaths being investigated

Wow, this story just got a lot worse. Two prisoners are confirmed murdered by a US soldier and a CIA contractor. 23 other deaths in Iraq and Afghanistan are under investigation. Disgusting torture techniques have been confirmed.

What's surprising if you read through this is that:
- The Bush Administration has known this since December/January
- Even congress wasn't told about the situation

This has the potential to be very bad for the Bush administration, both nationally and internationally. Personally, this says to me that Bush's "disgust" at the treatment of the prisoners didn't happen when he got the news in December/January, it happened when the press got the story.

This is not going to be good for Bush, he doesn't need powerful Republicans like McCain mad at him. He needs to carry Arizona badly to win the election, which is McCain's home state.

Time for an independent investigation, I think.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...abuse_usa_dc_4

Quote:
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Two Iraqi prisoners were murdered by Americans and 23 other deaths are being investigated in Iraq (news - web sites) and Afghanistan (news - web sites), the United States revealed on Tuesday as the Bush administration tried to contain growing outrage over the abuse of Iraqi detainees.

"The actions of the soldiers in those photographs are totally unacceptable and un-American," Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld said of humiliating images in the media of Iraqi prisoners. "Any who engaged in such action let down their comrades who serve honorably each day and they let down their country."

Army officials said the military had investigated the deaths of 25 prisoners held by American forces in Iraq and Afghanistan and determined that an Army soldier and a CIA (news - web sites) contractor murdered two prisoners. Most of the deaths occurred in Iraq.

An Army official said a soldier was convicted in the U.S. military justice system of homicide for shooting a prisoner to death in September 2003 at a detention center in Iraq.

The official, speaking on condition of anonymity, said a private contractor who worked for the CIA was found to have committed the other homicide against a prisoner.

Secretary of State Colin Powell (news - web sites), at the United Nations (news - web sites) for consultations on the Middle East, said only a "small number" of American troops had been involved in the abuse and vowed wrongdoers would be quickly brought to justice.

"I can assure you that no stone will be left unturned to make sure that justice is done and to make sure that nothing like this ever happens again," he said.

President Bush (news - web sites), campaigning in Ohio, did not mention the abuse but his National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice (news - web sites) again said the president was disgusted and outraged and had demanded those responsible be held accountable.

"The president has told the secretary of defense that he expects people to be held accountable, and that he wants, too, to know that this is not a systemic problem," Rice said.

"In other words, quite apart from the specific cases of those particular photographs, Americans do not dehumanize other people. That is not why we're in Iraq. We're in Iraq to liberate a people, to help them," she added.

White House spokesman Scott McClellan told reporters traveling with the president that Bush became aware of the allegations of abuse at the prison some time after the incidents occurred, late December or early January. It was unclear from McClellan when exactly the president was ware.

NEW ALLEGATIONS

Six U.S. soldiers have been reprimanded and six others face criminal charges in connection with abuses at the Abu Ghraib prison outside Baghdad, but Iraqi prisoners have complained of inhumane treatment by U.S. troops at other centers as well. The allegations first surfaced on Jan. 13 but were only made public last week.

The new U.S. commander overseeing military-run prisons in Iraq, Maj. Gen. Geoffrey Miller, said there are an estimated 8,000 detainees, about half of them at Abu Ghraib. The two other main prisons are at the southern port city of Umm Qasr and at the Baghdad International Airport, The Washington Post reported on its Web site.

Miller said the U.S. military runs 11 other detention facilities in Iraq where prisoners can be held for up to 14 days before a decision is made to release them or transfer them to one of the three main prisons, the newspaper said.

Images of Iraqis prisoners stripped of their clothes and being humiliated and abused have badly damaged U.S. prestige and credibility, especially in the Arab world. They have severely dented the U.S. argument that it invaded Iraq to bring democracy and human rights to a nation brutalized by a vicious dictator, former President Saddam Hussein (news - web sites).

Shocking excerpts from a report on the abuse completed on March 3 by Maj. Gen. Antonio Taguba were likely to further stoke fury at home and abroad.

"Between October and December 2003, at the Abu Ghraib Confinement Facility (BCCF), numerous incidents of sadistic, blatant, and wanton criminal abuses were inflicted on several detainees," the report said.

"This systemic and illegal abuse of detainees was intentionally perpetrated by several members of the military police guard force (372nd Military Police Company, 320th Military Police Battalion, 800th MP Brigade), in Tier (section) 1-A of the Abu Ghraib Prison (BCCF)."

Taguba said several detainees had credibly described acts of abuse, including:

* Breaking chemical lights and pouring the phosphoric liquid on detainees

* Beating detainees with a broom handle and a chair

* Sodomizing a detainee with a chemical light and perhaps a broom stick

* Arranging naked male detainees in a pile and then jumping on them

* Forcing detainees to remove their clothing and keeping them naked for several days at a time

* Forcing groups of male detainees to masturbate themselves while being photographed and videotaped

ANGRY LAWMAKERS

On Capitol Hill, angry Republicans and Democrats denounced the abuses. The Senate Intelligence Committee scheduled a closed hearing for Wednesday.

"The prisoner abuse is so disgusting, so degrading, that I think humanity has been hurt broadly," said Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist, a Tennessee Republican. He said it could undercut U.S. efforts to bring democracy to Iraq.

Sen. John McCain (news, bio, voting record), an Arizona Republican and committee member who was a prisoner of war in Vietnam, joined many lawmakers in complaining that Rumsfeld and other top Pentagon (news - web sites) officials failed to inform Congress of the situation.
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Old 05-04-2004, 10:57 PM   #2 (permalink)
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If Bush knew since December/January, and is only now, now that it's out in the open, saying something about it, that is vile and disgusting.

I hope this burns him.

I can't wait for the Bush-lovers in here to beat their heads on the wall over this one.

Last edited by analog; 05-04-2004 at 11:07 PM..
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Old 05-05-2004, 04:47 AM   #3 (permalink)
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This story will pass quickly, they're been less responce to it in Iraq then there was when they shut down Sadr's news paper, what does that tell you?
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Old 05-05-2004, 06:48 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Billy Ocean
This story will pass quickly, they're been less responce to it in Iraq then there was when they shut down Sadr's news paper, what does that tell you?
That the Iraqis are used to being tortured and abused and that they are thinking "meet the new boss, same as the old boss"?
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Old 05-05-2004, 06:51 AM   #5 (permalink)
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I'm not so sure it will pass that quickly. Wolf Blitzer reported yesterday other complaints of abuse that have been alleged in Cuba as well as Afganistan could get a closer look also.

If Bush knew about this and remained silent, that is disturbing to say the least. And Clinton was impeached for getting hummers from some intern slut. Go figure.
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Old 05-05-2004, 06:57 AM   #6 (permalink)
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I guess I don't understand the assertion that Bush's knowledge of the events somehow makes his disgust any less genuine. As far as the murders go, it was last year and one of those responsible has already been convicted. Seems that the system is working.

IMO the President doesn't have a responsibility to inform the public that there were crimes committed by military personnel before the investigation and prosecution have concluded. There's a whole system that addresses these situations and his singling them out and drawing attention to them would almost certainly have interrupted or biased that system.

Oh, and Clinton had impeachment proceedings brought because he lied under oath not because he got a blow job. Jeesh.
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Old 05-05-2004, 07:50 AM   #7 (permalink)
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So that's what mercenaries are being called nowadays, private contracters. Kinda makes it hard for the public to distinguish between armed forces and truck drivers don't it? Afterall they both fall under the term "private contracter". Wonder why they do that?
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Old 05-05-2004, 09:58 AM   #8 (permalink)
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What bothers me is that ABC News had this info and the pictures before the President's press conference, but was asked to sit tight on it. And if I have the timeline correct, ABC only released it because BBC did first.
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Old 05-05-2004, 10:14 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sparhawk
What bothers me is that ABC News had this info and the pictures before the President's press conference, but was asked to sit tight on it. And if I have the timeline correct, ABC only released it because BBC did first.
Still not sure why this is a problem. If the thinking was that national and international attention would adversely impact the investigation and possible prosecution, then why wouldn't they agree to sit on the story for a little while?
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Old 05-05-2004, 10:51 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by onetime2
Still not sure why this is a problem. If the thinking was that national and international attention would adversely impact the investigation and possible prosecution, then why wouldn't they agree to sit on the story for a little while?
Actually, I heard they asked them to sit on it because State was worried there would be retribution against the hostages, which is reasonable. I don't have a problem with stories going on the back burner because of security concerns, so long as they don't die back there.
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Old 05-05-2004, 10:58 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kadath
Actually, I heard they asked them to sit on it because State was worried there would be retribution against the hostages, which is reasonable. I don't have a problem with stories going on the back burner because of security concerns, so long as they don't die back there.
I hadn't heard this. Thanks.

Aside from a logistical standpoint (needing more people to handle press inquiries and so forth), how does national and international attention impede an investigation? If that was their sincere motive, well, too bad - plenty of ordinary citizens get thrust into the spotlight without their consent and they seem to handle it okay. I have a tendency to distrust this Administration's motives (I wonder why!). I'm glad to have been proved wrong in this case - if it is indeed for the reason Kadath stated.
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Old 05-05-2004, 11:03 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Good comments by all.

There are some awful people out there, and some of them are in positions of authority. It seems that the system is working, although not at the pace most of us would like.

The criminals will get what they deserve.
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Old 05-05-2004, 12:46 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by onetime2
IMO the President doesn't have a responsibility to inform the public that there were crimes committed by military personnel before the investigation and prosecution have concluded. There's a whole system that addresses these situations and his singling them out and drawing attention to them would almost certainly have interrupted or biased that system.
Oh, I agree with regards to the public. If you read to the end, you'll see that congress is pretty upset that they weren't kept in the loop. Not just the democrats in congress, but the republicans too.
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Old 05-06-2004, 05:04 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by HarmlessRabbit
Oh, I agree with regards to the public. If you read to the end, you'll see that congress is pretty upset that they weren't kept in the loop. Not just the democrats in congress, but the republicans too.
I also don't have a problem with Congress hearing about it later. There are plenty of attention whores in Congress who aren't above using sensitive material to better their own personal (or party) standing. While I wish it was true that everyone would put the national good above their own interests, we know that doesn't always happen.

As far as Sparhawk's comment about attention not impeding an investigation, it absolutely does. Discrete inquiries can be made when there's no attention, people are more forthcoming if they aren't convinced that international or public pressure is mounting for scapegoats, etc. Just because "plenty of ordinary citizens get thrust into the spotlight without their consent" and handle it ok doesn't mean it doesn't influence the outcome and doesn't increase the risk of unfair trials.
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Old 05-06-2004, 05:37 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Is it just me, or is the fact that these acts have continued to this day not show a disregard of the problem by those in charge? I personally find the "sweeping under the rug" aspect, unfortunate and decieving. It also makes me wonder what is still hidden from view.
As far as the Clinton Lying under oath comment, it is true. This is most likely why both Bush and Cheney refused to take the oath during "interviews" with the 9/11 commision. I am sorry but, in my opinion, lying to the entire country to gain support for a war which kills hundreds of American citizens is slightly more revolting than lying about a blow job.
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Old 05-06-2004, 05:43 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by tecoyah
Is it just me, or is the fact that these acts have continued to this day not show a disregard of the problem by those in charge? I personally find the "sweeping under the rug" aspect, unfortunate and decieving. It also makes me wonder what is still hidden from view.
As far as the Clinton Lying under oath comment, it is true. This is most likely why both Bush and Cheney refused to take the oath during "interviews" with the 9/11 commision. I am sorry but, in my opinion, lying to the entire country to gain support for a war which kills hundreds of American citizens is slightly more revolting than lying about a blow job.
Again, you cannot possibly prove that Bush was lying since you don't know that he knew Hussein didn't have WMDs.

In fact, if you believe the Bob Woodward account of Tenet claiming "It's a slam dunk" he was completely mislead. That is far from lying.

The assertion that "these acts have continued to this day" needs some substantiation I think. How do you know these things are occuring?
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Old 05-06-2004, 07:33 AM   #17 (permalink)
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you have a strong case in proving that he was wrong but you'd have a much tougher time proving he lied.

we really don't know if those acts are continuing to this day. true, more pictures are showing up... but that doesn't mean they're taken a few hours before they're put on the air. the pictures have no context. the content of the pictures is enough to garner my condemnation, but we have no idea of the temporal context.
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Old 05-06-2004, 11:13 AM   #18 (permalink)
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I have to ask (although I am sure I will regret it), How much circumstantial evidence would it require for a hardcore republican to question the ethics and integrity of this administration?

The accumulation of denials, and dodges. Combined with the story line changes just makes it so obvious to me, but perhaps I am paranoid in this regard. If you folks honestly believe this administration has been forthcoming, and honest with the population in this issue, or any number of others, I guess I am in the wrong in your eyes. That is O.K. with me.
I will again, agree to disagree.
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Old 05-06-2004, 11:19 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by tecoyah
I have to ask (although I am sure I will regret it), How much circumstantial evidence would it require for a hardcore republican to question the ethics and integrity of this administration?
It would only take one bit of firm evidence for me to believe it since most administrations are ethically challenged by their very nature. All I have seen to discredit Bush so far is an accumulation of petty, undocumented, accusations which, besides the fact that they can't be proved, are logically flawed.
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Old 05-06-2004, 12:47 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by irateplatypus
you have a strong case in proving that he was wrong but you'd have a much tougher time proving he lied.

So, out of curiousity. If Someone "made a mistake", or was wrong. And the result of that mistake was the death of hundreds of people, would you trust them to continue making such descisions?

If someone you knew, made statements that you "felt" were incorrect. And if the likely reason for the "incorrect" statements was to decieve you, would you trust them?

If the life of your child, or indeed yourself, were placed in the hands of this individual, would you be comfortable?

These are the questions to ask yourself, and place into whatever context fits your understanding of Power.
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Old 05-06-2004, 05:32 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Originally posted by onetime2
I also don't have a problem with Congress hearing about it later. There are plenty of attention whores in Congress who aren't above using sensitive material to better their own personal (or party) standing. While I wish it was true that everyone would put the national good above their own interests, we know that doesn't always happen.
While I agree with you in general about attention whores in congress, I don't think Bill Frist and John McCain would be complaining if they didn't think congress should have justifiably been notified. This makes them look bad as well as Bush, so I think the secrecy was unfounded.

Complaints about the prison have been pouring in for quite a while, so I don't see any need for secrecy here. Secrecy belongs in cases of National Security, not to cover up National Embarassments. It's a tool for security, not public relations. Any other use is abuse.
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Old 05-07-2004, 04:52 AM   #22 (permalink)
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Originally posted by HarmlessRabbit
While I agree with you in general about attention whores in congress, I don't think Bill Frist and John McCain would be complaining if they didn't think congress should have justifiably been notified. This makes them look bad as well as Bush, so I think the secrecy was unfounded.

Complaints about the prison have been pouring in for quite a while, so I don't see any need for secrecy here. Secrecy belongs in cases of National Security, not to cover up National Embarassments. It's a tool for security, not public relations. Any other use is abuse.
McCain et al would look worse if they knew about it and nothing was accomplished by the time the story broke. These things aren't dealt with instantly and it takes time to get them under control and to investigate/punish those responsible. It appears that things were being done to deal with the abuse even before the story broke. If these abuses were being tolerated when they were known to be occurring that's a different story, but until I see evidence of that happening I am fine with how the process was used.
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Old 05-07-2004, 04:57 AM   #23 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by tecoyah
So, out of curiousity. If Someone "made a mistake", or was wrong. And the result of that mistake was the death of hundreds of people, would you trust them to continue making such descisions?

If someone you knew, made statements that you "felt" were incorrect. And if the likely reason for the "incorrect" statements was to decieve you, would you trust them?

If the life of your child, or indeed yourself, were placed in the hands of this individual, would you be comfortable?

These are the questions to ask yourself, and place into whatever context fits your understanding of Power.
So long as the conclusions were reached with reasonable expectations of the data presented then I have no problem with it. There are plenty of instances where I look at information and come to one conclusion while someone else comes to another. I don't fault them for coming to the wrong conclusion if the evidence could point you in that way and there isn't significant reason to think it's wrong.
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Old 05-09-2004, 03:28 AM   #24 (permalink)
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If you honestly believe that, in the context of the current situation, so be it. I guess we simply have a different understanding of the resposibilities of government, and accountability. I simply have less tolerance for incompetence in the people elected to guide my country.
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Old 05-09-2004, 06:23 AM   #25 (permalink)
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The American's arent really any worse than Saddam Hussain and his mob I suppose, and this was always understood by the Iraqi's, I think these things don't shock them because they always knew... they shock American civilians because some peopel genuinely believed that this was a moral war and that this was about the liberation of Iraq. It must be hard to carry on all the "I support our troops" stuff if you see them as torturers rather than liberators.

I think it is important to understand there are many soldiers who have not committed war crimes in Iraq, but I think we do understand that while the torturers may be a minority, they were allowed to carry on doing these things by a majority that turned away, didnt look, didnt stop them... even if the acts of toture were abhorent to the majority of soldiers, there is also a responsibility to do something other than look away in shame or disgust when confronted by this.

But I do feel we have to have some perspective... the percentage of American troops who have committed war crimes could be as low as 5%, even 2%... it is not all American soldiers who are like this... every society, Western or Eastern, contains people who are monsterous, and when they are given the chance they will drink blood.
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Old 05-09-2004, 07:52 AM   #26 (permalink)
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Two thoughts - Haven't there been pictures of Brits doing these things too?

And when were these pictures taken? I know it came out now, but do we know for sure that all of this is still happening? I mean, a few of the people who comitted the crime are back in America and not in Iraq.
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Old 05-09-2004, 08:21 AM   #27 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by BlueGoose
Two thoughts - Haven't there been pictures of Brits doing these things too?

Yes, and although some people are claiming the British photo's are fake my feeling is that they are probably genuine.
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Old 05-09-2004, 08:38 AM   #28 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by BlueGoose
Two thoughts - Haven't there been pictures of Brits doing these things too?


Yes. I hope you aren't implying that that excuses the USA in any way.

Quote:
And when were these pictures taken? I know it came out now, but do we know for sure that all of this is still happening? I mean, a few of the people who comitted the crime are back in America and not in Iraq.
It is thought that the pictures were taken after August 2003, which is when General Geoffrey Miller took over the prison. Miller had been in charge of Guantonomo, and he is the one who thought it would be a good idea to get the soldiers involved with interrogations.

Serious investigation into the torture began in January, and I'm sure that since then the USA has played absolutely by the rules in Iraq. So, broadly speaking the abuse seems to have occured from September to December 2003.

I am absolutely certain that no abuse is going on now. I imagine that the prisoners are *very* well treated at the moment.

At minimum right now, I would say that General Miller should be relieved of his command. It is his reorganization of the interrogation techniques that led to the torture. At minimum, he is directly responsbile, and the responsibility may go higher.

Unless a general is sacked out of this investigation, I will not believe that we are serious about the issue. A bunch of reservists do *not* torture people over a three month period without some encouragement from the top, and without a command structure that permits it. Even if Miller is guilty of just creating a bad command structure without proper supervision, and knew nothing of the torture itself, he should still lose his job.

(Sorry, ranted a little off your original question there. )
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Old 05-09-2004, 09:06 AM   #29 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by HarmlessRabbit
[B]Yes. I hope you aren't implying that that excuses the USA in any way.
Never - I am a Republican myself and some of my friends point out what Saddam has done and what we have done is miniscule in comparison, but I thinbk it's bogus to try to excuse evil simply because it's the lesser of two.

In any event, my statement was in regards to my misreading of Strange Famous's statement.
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Old 05-09-2004, 12:04 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Originally posted by BlueGoose
Never - I am a Republican myself and some of my friends point out what Saddam has done and what we have done is miniscule in comparison,
Maybe...

Maybe not.

Only one thing is for sure.

Iraq has truly turned into a nightmare.

I would imagine that even Bush, if he could go back in time, would not have chosen a course of invading Iraq.
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Old 05-09-2004, 04:47 PM   #31 (permalink)
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I disagree. I don't think it's turned into the hell hole that it's portrayed to be. Iraq is rejuvinating and while there seem to be attacks daily they still seem to be isolated to only 2 major cities: Fallujah and Baghdad.
I do think that if I had been President and I could change things I'd go knocking on Iran's door first. They're the real threat. But oh the political suicide of attacking a country that couldn't be knocked over in a week like Iraq. Democrats crying foul that it's turned into Vietnam. Kind of like Iraq, but with thousands dead.
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Old 05-09-2004, 05:10 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by BlueGoose
I disagree. I don't think it's turned into the hell hole that it's portrayed to be. Iraq is rejuvinating and while there seem to be attacks daily they still seem to be isolated to only 2 major cities: Fallujah and Baghdad.
here's a pretty good blog from an Iraqi in Iraq:
http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com/
Quote:
There was a time when people here felt sorry for the troops. No matter what one's attitude was towards the occupation, there were moments of pity towards the troops, regardless of their nationality. We would see them suffering the Iraqi sun, obviously wishing they were somewhere else and somehow, that vulnerability made them seem less monstrous and more human. That time has passed. People look at troops now and see the pictures of Abu Ghraib… and we burn with shame and anger and frustration at not being able to do something. Now that the world knows that the torture has been going on since the very beginning, do people finally understand what happened in Falloojeh?
So yeah, a populace who doesn't want us there and an american public that is tiring of all the scandal and mismanagement, it does sound like Vietnam.

Honestly, I don't know much about Vietnam in detail, it predates me. I'm going to look around for a good factual book on it. Anyone have any suggestions? Seems like a good summer read given the current situation.

here:
http://www.independent.org/tii/news/040503Marina.html
is an interesting article comparing Vietnam and Iraq.
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Old 05-09-2004, 05:41 PM   #33 (permalink)
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Location: Texas - The state that all other states wish they could be
Thanks. That really gives me a perspective on the ordeal.

On the Vietnam thing I think that Leubsdorf's article on it said it best - While not particularly Vietnam-esque in death count or bloody it does stand dangerous to the president's ability to rule.
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