Arc101

This from the BBC

Sorry if this has been posted before but can't see it anywhere. Anway I few things I find disturbing, one that the America media has known about this for weeks, but do not report it straight away because of pressure from the pentagon, and second what kind of training does Staff Sergeant Chip Frederick need in order not to torture someone ?

Scipio

Well, before someone else gets to it...

The BBC is out to undermine the war effort, and publishes stories like this in order to make the nation-building project fail. Two, those rat-bastard Iraqi terrorists (indeed, all terrorists) deserve it cause they would do ten times as worse things to our guys if they could.

(end sarcasm)

That said, it's shameful that some of our soldiers are out of control like this, and it doubly shameful that action isn't taken to correct these problems when they occur. Actions like these undermine the rightness of our cause. Like most conservatives, I think that a successful occupation/nation building project can only be a good thing for Iraq and the world. However, I think that such a project is unbelievably difficult to pull off, and I also think that we've made too many mistakes already. Should we cut and run? No, but we should be more proactive in pursuing a course that will bring about a good outcome. What I would suggest is that when sovereignty is "handed over" to the Iraqis, we also grant the UN some authority. It would be a good time to do it, and it seems to be politically possible.

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dimbulb

assilem

This kind of shit just gives everyone who hates America more reason to hate us and this time around I would have to agree. I know the Iraqis in this picture are probably bad dudes but what about the soldiers doing that to them. I mean what kind of a twisted jerk do you have to be to do something like that? And where the hell were these assholes commanding officers? The worst part about the mess is that these images have been run on Al Jazeera so many times by now that not a single Arab has not seen them. It is going to make the fight harder for the good soldiers over there trying to do their jobs. These assholes should be locked up in Syrian prison or something.

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Had cast him out from Heaven, with all his host
Of rebel Angels

Wax_off

Wow! What a bunch of dumb asses. I don't care how bored they were, those guys should be lined up in front of a firing squad. They should be made a BIG example of. Talk about making the whole thing more difficult. Shit.

BigGov

I would like to hear what led to the so-called torture.

The soldiers will be dealt with appropriately, you can make damn sure of that.

__________________
One day an Englishman, a Scotsman, and an Irishman walked into a pub together. They each bought a pint of Guinness. Just as they were about to enjoy their creamy beverage, three flies landed in each of their pints. The Englishman pushed his beer away in disgust. The Scotsman fished the fly out of his beer and continued drinking it, as if nothing had happened. The Irishman, too, picked the fly out of his drink but then held it out over the beer and yelled "SPIT IT OUT, SPIT IT OUT, YOU BASTARD!"

Scipio

Yeah, throw them in prison with the rest of the baathists. Sure, they're US soldiers, but they should never be allowed to put the uniform on again. I hadn't seen the pictures until dimbulb posted them. Totally horrifying.

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"Erections lasting more than 4 hours, though rare, require immediate medical attention."

dimbulb

I don't know what posessed the soldiers to do that. It's just going to make a very difficult job even harder.

Discounting the severity and the lack of 'real' torture, its somewhat reminiscent of what happened in Saddam's prisons. Didn't he electrocute his prisoners as well?

Prisoners deserve to be treated with respect. This is clearly a violation of the Geneva Convention. I think even the German POWs were treated much better than this.

Can't wait for these pictures of Americans humiliating naked Iraqis to make the rounds on the Arab news channels.

Total dumbasses... and even dumber for making videos to showoff for their friends at home.....

Shauk

CBS' 60 Minutes Two aired allegations—supported by numerous photographs and witnesses—that document numerous cases of torture and abuse of Iraqi prisoners inside Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq.

Amongst the photographs were pictures of prisoners with wires attached to their genitals, prisoners stacked in a pyramid, prisoners forced to simulate oral sex on others, and prisoners who appear to have been beaten to death.

The New York Times is now covering this story. A total of 17 soldiers, including a brigadier general, have been removed from duty as a result, and Court-Martials are in the works for at least six soldiers. At least one of those charged blames the military for staffing the prison with reservists, not providing them with procedures for running the facility, and not educating them on the proper treatment of prisoners.

More bad and potentially inflammatory news at a bad time. The pictures are already circulating out there and other articles are already in the works, so it's a safe bet that the pictures will be broadcast on Arab television very shortly—just like they were on CBS.

Of course, there is deafening silence over at LJ "conservatism" and the other bastions of righteousness, although you can rest assured that if our POWs were ever treated like this, they'd be howling like rabid banshees—as would I.

Like Brigadier General Mark Kimmitt very correctly stated:
"If we can't hold ourselves up as an example of how to treat people with dignity and respect, we can't ask that other nations do that to our soldiers."


An Iraqi prisoner had electrical wires wrapped around his arms, his legs, and his testicles. He was told that if he stepped off the box, that he would be electrocuted.


They were forced to get up on one of another in a pyramid, with bags over their heads.


They're in that pyramid, bodies stacked up on one another, and those two soldier guards are grinning like it's some big fun game to play with the prisoners.


They were forced to perform oral sex on each other at gunpoint.


A big, wide smile on the woman's face as she does a thumbs-up and points at the exposed genitals of the Iraq man with his two other prisoners sitting on the ground with bags over their heads.


Again, there are the smiles and the thumbs-up gesture while the Iraqi man huddles on the bodies of his other prisoners in that pyramid.


This is the body of an Iraqi man who died of beatings at the hands of the American soldiers.

So how should Iraqis feel towards American soldiers? Nice war heroes huh?

and i realize that some of you might think that everything above is an isolated innocent of some crazy soldiers have some "fun" - but it's not.. what else did you think would happen in Iraq? when in fact this is how the people of Iraq are being liberated by US soldiers.

Silvy

This is horrible!

I thought the soldier/kid/sign picture was bad, but this is much worse!
I agree that prisoners should be questioned, and not served a 7 course meal, bu torture and humiliation is strictly out of the question.

Remember the US soldiers that were captures halfway through the war? They were shown on television and the world cried bloody murder because it was humiliating.
I think public opinion favors the U.S. government over Saddam's regime, but still this will shake some ground, and rightly so.

Is this the U.S. army losing control over some of it's soldiers?

__________________
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Silvy

Please tell me this video is manufactured...

Damn it man, this is NO WAY to go around policing a country. If you can't make yourself understood, arrest them (if you need to) and tow away their car and their stuff until you can make yourself understood.

How far up it goes is beyond my knowledge but someone is giving these soldiers the wrong instructions.

__________________
"Do not kill. Do not rape. Do not steal. These are principles which every man of every faith can embrace. "
- Murphy MacManus (Boondock Saints)

Zeld2.0

When you're out there and things get boring... some guys get the crazy idea they don't need discipline (reminds me of vietnam movies for some reason)

Anyways those soldiers should defenitely get their asses canned. What a piss poor representation of our armed forces.

Asuka{eve}

This is sick. I cant believe what those soldiers did. They are going to get prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

hammer4all

More photos that were aired on 60 Minutes, here.

International reaction

Free Speech Radio News report from Baghdad on Abu Ghraib prison.

hammer4all

The video is an excerpt from PBS' FRONTLINE. I think it's from this report:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...ws/truth/view/

nanofever

OMFG, what idiots first torturing people and then photographing it. People, don't capture your crimes on media, just ask R. Kelly.

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Originally Posted by Norseman on another forum:
"Yeah, the problem with the world is the stupid people are all cocksure of themselves and the intellectuals are full of doubt."

seretogis

This is disgusting, and those responsible should literally be shot, burned, crucified, drowned, and then buried.

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djtestudo

So a couple soldiers are fucknuts...I know! Let's generalize about everyone!

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hammer4all

Interesting reaction; it's similar to the one Gen. Mark Kimmitt had last night on 60 Minutes II when he was shown a picture of an Iraqi who had been beaten to death: "It's reprehensible that anybody would be taking a picture of that situation."

assilem

As a Conservative Republican I am F*CKING APALLED! (I' not yelling at you Shauk. I'm just yelling.) The president’s response today was not nearly harsh enough either

http://news.myway.com/top/article/id/400653|top|04-30-2004::16:28|reuters.html

Not harsh enough for me GW.

__________________
The mother of mankind, what time his pride
Had cast him out from Heaven, with all his host
Of rebel Angels

nanofever

I said they were idiots for torturing people and twice as stupid for taking pictures of the torture.

Sorry if that was unclear.

__________________
I'm leaving for the University of California: Santa Barbara in 5 hours, give me your best college advice - things I need, good ideas, bad ideas, nooky, ect.

Originally Posted by Norseman on another forum:
"Yeah, the problem with the world is the stupid people are all cocksure of themselves and the intellectuals are full of doubt."

nanofever

My Vietnam sense is tingling, something about Mai Lai...

__________________
I'm leaving for the University of California: Santa Barbara in 5 hours, give me your best college advice - things I need, good ideas, bad ideas, nooky, ect.

Originally Posted by Norseman on another forum:
"Yeah, the problem with the world is the stupid people are all cocksure of themselves and the intellectuals are full of doubt."

Sparhawk

Talk about your bad apples spoiling the barrel. But it's simple statistics I guess... Out of a force of 130,000, you're bound to have 50 or so assclowns.

__________________
"In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work. It's incredibly hard. It's - and it's hard work. I understand how hard it is. I get the casualty reports every day. I see on the TV screens how hard it is. But it's necessary work. We're making progress. It is hard work."

Crack

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~Halx

mml

It really doesn't matter what your politics are, I think we can all agree that this was unacceptable and these individuals should be held accountable and prosecuted to the full extent of the law. I also hope they don't just hang the enlisted folks and move on, but that they look into this and determine if superiors knew or condoned these actions and if they have occured elsewhere.

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Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so."
-Douglas Adams

Prince

I wouldn't want to be the parent of that female soldier smiling in one of those pictures. I have a hunch she's going to get fewer Christmas cards this year.

Personally, I think these soldiers should be handed over to the Iraqi. Let them handle it. After all, the crimes were committed against their nationals, not Americans. I'm sure the judgment carried out by an Iraqi court will have a more lasting effect than bringing these war heroes back to the States, so they can be discharged, tried, perhaps serve some time in jail and then sell the movie/book rights for a few mil.

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Aletheia

Harman

The Americans are oh so great!!!

Shauk

you know damn well that if AMERICANS can generalize the entire military off of these events, that the world will. Bottom line is, the so called untouchable reputation of the US military is in the shithole. I feel anyone who stands up for this can go right down the hole with them, I find it irritating that there are still people in this world who look at this and try to defend the generalization and choose not to comment a single word on what actually took place.

I feel this reaction is common because people see this, and they have no way of defending it, so they attack the person who posted it as some sort of wishing defense. Attacking me or my opinions doesnt change the fact that YOUR countrymen did this to THEIR Citizens. It doesn't make it "acceptable" or worth sidestepping the topic because I choose to think of the military as a brutish method of "peacekeeping"

whats that saying? fucking for virginity?

hrmph.

this really SUCKS

Pacifier

It seems that also british soldiers were involved:


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/3675215.stm

I wonder how high the estimated number of unknown cases is.

It seems that the coalition not only failed to win the haerts and minds of the iraqi but also lost the motivation of their soldiers.

I hope those soldiers will be punished hard, because those action did not just harm the iraqi prisioners, those actions harmed the whole process of "nation building". Those actions fueled the hatred, because of those action more people will die.

__________________
"It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously. I also cannot imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere. Science has been charged with undermining morality, but the charge is unjust. A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death
— Albert Einstein

Crack

Now that's just not true, I probably will... although I will try not to, it will inevitably happen again...

__________________
Crack, you and I are long overdue for a vicious bout of mansex.

~Halx

Lebell

Seems to me that Levenworth will be recieving a couple of new residents.

WTF were they thinking??

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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Paq

i'm mainly just subscribing to this thread, but i have to ask.

Do you think things like this could be caused by just a general lack of discipline from using too many reservists/not full time military personell? Do you think it's mainly confined to the army branch of the military? and finally...Who in their right mind would take pictures of that..

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Live.

Chris

onetime2

Absolutely unacceptable. There is already talk about going after the General who was in charge of this group and rightfully so. These "guards" should get the maximum possible penalty.

There is no excuse. The one idiot said something along the lines of being told that they should "stress" the prisoners so they'd be more open to talking but got no direction on how to do it. Why he thinks this is an excuse I have no idea.

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Strive to be more curious than ignorant.

HarmlessRabbit

Well, that's exactly the point. If you read the current news on the story, the soldiers who were guarding the prisoners received *no* training. Not only were they not taught the rules of the Geneva convention, they weren't taught how to handle prisoners period. Also, they were extremely short-staffed at first.

Now, that said, there is no excuse for the treatment of the prisoners pictured above. You don't need training to understand that abuse and torture are wrong.

So far, I think the USA response has been ok. The president has strongly condemned the actions and appears to be putting fixes in place. Now I'd like to see some followup directly from the president on how the situation will be prevented in the future with structural and policy changes to the armed forces, and I want to see the people involved who are guilty severely punished.

Unfortunately, the damage is done to our national image. We went into Iraq because of Saddam's abuse of Iraqis, I'm sure to many Iraqis we look like hypocrites now.

I'm not directly blaming Rumsfeld, but I do think Rumsfeld's strategy of waging smaller, cheaper wars with less troops is partly to blame here.

OFKU0

Well it seems to me they weren't.

The first thought I had was of the families of the soldiers killed believing in trying to make Iraq a better place all the while some of their peers are whooping it up having a grand ole time. Very ignorant and sad.

Unfortunately, this complete lack professionalism by a few will cast a shadow on everyone equally. And it will also inspire those who disagree with the U.S being in Iraq and give more reason that the campaign is being poorly executed at every level.

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Mojo_PeiPei

I don't know about the last paragraph. Isn't Rummy's whole game plan of smaller wars the utilization of Special Forces and Special Soldiers such as we have going in Afganistan? By nature of that it would appear that Iraq is in contrast to the gameplan. I'm not trying to argue the point so much as I just trying to address it.

It is a shame what this people did though. However there are no doubts in my mind that the book will get heaved at them in the worse possible way.

__________________
To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

Arc101

I was just wondering what people think the chances are of these soldiers being tried in Iraq by the Iraq justice system. After all these offences were committed against Iraq citizens on Iraq soil.

HarmlessRabbit

I'd say the chance of that is zero. The USA pulled out of a world-court system for armed forces war crimes years ago. The Bush Administration strongly believes in prosecuting our own troops within the military justice system.

Giving the guilty ones long sentences will send a clear message to troops that this behavior won't be tolerated. Let's hope for many long sentences for the guilty.

HarmlessRabbit

well according to this (liberally biased) source:
http://www.counterpunch.org/lind04012003.html
So it looks like it wasn't just more special ops, but also far less troops in general. Like I said, I'm wondering if this cut in troops led to the understaffing in the prison. I think the news said six guards were watching four hundred prisoners?