John "The War Hero" Kerry - Page 2 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

analog · 04-14-2004, 08:10 PM

Strike 1 for this thread- opening article posted included no commentary from which to build discussion. It's caused a lot of general comments, not a discussion, and a rather unpleasant number of posts that are entirely sarcasm.

jcookc6 · 04-15-2004, 10:18 AM

Pan6467, In John Kerry's case what you say is exactly true. He has patterned his life after John F. Kennedy. Everything he has done in his life has been with one goal in mind. Be President of the United States.

Superbelt · 04-15-2004, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Karm
So he beached his boat to attack a solitary soldier with an rpg? HUH? Didn't charlie travel in packs? As in; likely to be more than 1 RPG in the area. It's stupity, not courage to put your crew in danger due to the nature of the attack. Closing distance on a sniper is sound doctrine. Esp with the 50 cal's and such available on the boat. The sniper rifle range is obviously beyond that of a 50 cal. Close the range by driving in closer and attacking on foot is also reasonable.
Correct me if I am wrong. The guns mounted on the boat have a much greater range than an RPG? Why would you manuveur yourself anywhere near a weapon that can do serious damage to the vessel entrusted to you?
Maybe I should look further into the incident. As far as I can tell from the facts presented so far. He made a serious error in judgement.

Quote:

The VC had a loaded B-40 but we were too close for him to shoot. I think it
takes 3 meters to arm, we were a hell of a lot closer than 9 feet to one
another.

Tommy Billadeau in the peak tank did hit him in the legs with his M-60 but
he did not break stride as he booked to cover, dropped down in a feeder
creek/ditch and broke left of me to get behind a hooch. From there we were
dead meat if he got the shot off. Could not miss us with a 30 to 40 foot
shot. (BTW -- Tommy passed away in 95 as I remember.)

While the bar on the gun tub prevented me from firing on him as we beached
when I broke to my left I put a ton of APIT from one end of the hooch to the
other to keep his head down. Kerry and Mederis ran under my fire, Mederis
set up a 60 position on the right and laid grazing fire to suppress the fire
we were taking in that direction while Kerry took the VC out. We got his
RPG and several other weapons back to the boat.

About the time this was happening all hell breaks loose on the stern -- we
are taking AK-47 and machine gun fire from the other bank. Thor on the 94
MT 52 and the 23's MT 52 and the aft M-60 return the fire. Mr. Droz and the
43 arrives in the middle of this, give them a full broadside and that is the
end of that crap. During this fight I am hiding behind the radar stanchion
as I can't train my 50's aft and I don't have an M-16 with me. Last time
that ever happen -- from then on I had the M-16, the shotgun and the 38
(which I place right over my balls). This dumb-ass Arkie plow-boy is a
quick learner when scared "explicative deleted"less.

Anyway -- enough of my rambling.

Later,

Fred Short
Gunner, PCF 94
(the twin 50's gunner on Kerry's boat)

If kerry didn't beach the swift at the time he earned his Silver Star, the VC may have got a shot off and everyone, including Kerry may be dead today.

Mr. Mojo · 04-15-2004, 11:32 AM

Which medals did he throw over the Capitol Fence when he was protesting the war? I know he threw someone else's medals and kept his own (which he framed years later for the wall in his Senate office.) But I'd still like to know which were worthless to him when he came back.

mml · 04-15-2004, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mr. Mojo
Which medals did he throw over the Capitol Fence when he was protesting the war? I know he threw someone else's medals and kept his own (which he framed years later for the wall in his Senate office.) But I'd still like to know which were worthless to him when he came back.

Nice Troll Mojo.

Let me preface my response by saying that I have never served in the military.

I think that when someone is morally opposed to something they have the right to state this and in fact take action as long as that action does not violate the law. In my opinion, Kerry and others protested, spoke out, wrote letters and yes threw medals in order to bring attention to what they perceived to be the evils of the Vietnam War. What these protestors were trying to say is that the lives of our young men and they lives of the Vietnamese and the inegrity of the United States is more important than any individual or individual accomplishment or honor(i.e. medals). It is not unpatriotic or wrong to publicly oppose something you disagree with. If our forefathers did not protest the abuses of Britain, our country would not exsist. Is is wrong to protest against abortion?

The attempt to paint Kerry or anyone who opposes war or the government as unpatriotic is fallacious and indeed comes much closer to being unpatriotic than what Kerry, his compatriots and protestors of today have done.

HarmlessRabbit · 04-15-2004, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mr. Mojo
Which medals did he throw over the Capitol Fence when he was protesting the war? I know he threw someone else's medals and kept his own (which he framed years later for the wall in his Senate office.) But I'd still like to know which were worthless to him when he came back.

Nice troll. What does that have to do with this discussion?

Mr. Mojo · 04-15-2004, 01:49 PM

I don’t see how my post is a troll. This thread is about his medals, and so was my post. It’s a valid question.

Which medals did he throw?

I never called Kerry "unpatriotic or wrong to publicly oppose something". I never would, he put on a uniform, that’s enough proof for me. Protesters are fine, as long as you don't keep me stopped up in traffic.

Bill O'Rights · 04-15-2004, 01:53 PM

Quote:

For the record, all I know about this issue is:

John Kerry served in Vietnam.
George W. Bush did not serve in Vietnam.

I think, perhaps, that this is the core of the issue.

-- Rohan Samarajiva

tecoyah · 04-15-2004, 02:11 PM

Those who live in Glass houses.........

I have an Idea, Anyone who has been shot at in the line of duty please feel free to be critical of someone who has been thru the same. Any one who has not been threatened with impending death while protecting American Freedoms, please refrain from attempting to debase someone for doing it for you.

I cannot and will not be critical of ANY American soldier without knowing exactly what they have done, and why. I do not have the right, and neither do most of you. It will hurt no one to show a measure of respect for Veterans of the Wars that allow you to have this discussion. You can be critical of his politics, or his personality, even his Family......But it is inappropriate to speculate unfairly, on an issue we can not understand, until we have lived it.

Zeld2.0 · 04-15-2004, 05:21 PM

Sadly tecoyah some people find it funner to ridicule vets based on party lines

Seriously though, I agree tecoyah and personally I find it despicable people question others based on some political line

analog · 04-15-2004, 05:43 PM

Thank you for properly responding to a troll, and not just flaming back.

This is a question:

Quote:

Which medals did he throw over the Capitol Fence when he was protesting the war?

This is a troll:

Quote:

I know he threw someone else's medals and kept his own (which he framed years later for the wall in his Senate office.) But I'd still like to know which were worthless to him when he came back.

No more trolling from anyone. Don't ruin an otherwise informative thread.

Thanks!

smooth · 04-15-2004, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mr. Mojo
Which medals did he throw?

I have been wondering this myself, because I couldn't find anything substantial on this. I was able to find, however, a website that wasn't supportive of Kerry.

"The 1988 issue of Current Biography Yearbook explained: " . . . the ones he had discarded were not his own but had belonged to another veteran who asked him to make the gesture for him"

FreeRepublic.com "A Conservative News Forum"

--http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/913184/posts

irateplatypus · 04-15-2004, 07:31 PM

i'll side with the traditionally left leaning posters in defending kerry's war record because no matter the circumstances they (his medals) were awarded to him... he still put himself in harms way for a while, more than many in his generation were willing to do. even if you could prove that he did it for a political future, that still takes guts whatever the motivation.

i'm just confused why this is all of the sudden a positive aspect of kerry's campaign. since when did democrats push military service as a positive factor in political leadership?

Nixon, Ford, Reagan, Bush Senior and GWB have all performed military service and i've not seen these two things come from that...

1. i've never seen a liberal cede the point that their military service makes them more qualified for office.

2. i've never seen any of the aforementioned men make their military service a campaign talking point like kerry has used his.

if you want to talk about heroes... talk about Bob Dole. there is a humble man who has more to boast about than nearly every politician this century... yet did not allow it to be exploited when people tried to make a big deal of it in his run for the presidency.

all this to say: i don't think anyone has the right to delegitimize kerry's service, but i think the way kerry has used it in his campaign is vulgar compared to how presidential candidates of the past have treated theirs.

Superbelt · 04-15-2004, 07:44 PM

All I want to add the the discussion of him tossing medals over the capital wall is:

The most decorated american veteran in US history, Col. David Hackworth gave all his medals away to little kids in Australia because they meant absolutely nothing to him. He felt that since they were given to him by a military who made disgusting decisions and irrationally put americans in harms way when it was not needed that he didn't want to associate with them anymore.

Superbelt · 04-15-2004, 07:53 PM

Quote:

i'm just confused why this is all of the sudden a positive aspect of kerry's campaign. since when did democrats push military service as a positive factor in political leadership?

Honest answer? Maybe since Republicans started calling us Anti-american and using military service as an issue to declare democrats unfit for office.

And it is doubly frustrating, the attacks when you consider the leaders of the republican and democratic parties. By and large the democrats current leadership have a much more complete and distinguished career of military service, yet they unceasingly get clubbed with the military and get attacked on our supposed lack of patriotism. I think Kerry is attempting to fight back against that.

A little bit of backing up my statements.

Who Served
The Chickenhawk Brigade
It is REALLY amusing seeing some of the excuses Republicans used for avoiding Nam.

Now I would also like to say that I know there are plenty of republicans, and prominent ones at that who served faithfully in the military. And that site does recognize the most prominent among them. And I know plenty of democrats avoided the draft as well. I think this info is important because it is a shield we can use to show that the Republicans enjoy no high ground, as they claim, over our pride of country and faithfulness to America.

smooth · 04-15-2004, 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by irateplatypus
i'll side with the traditionally left leaning posters in defending kerry's war record because no matter the circumstances they (his medals) were awarded to him... he still put himself in harms way for a while, more than many in his generation were willing to do. even if you could prove that he did it for a political future, that still takes guts whatever the motivation.

i'm just confused why this is all of the sudden a positive aspect of kerry's campaign. since when did democrats push military service as a positive factor in political leadership?

Nixon, Ford, Reagan, Bush Senior and GWB have all performed military service and i've not seen these two things come from that...

1. i've never seen a liberal cede the point that their military service makes them more qualified for office.

2. i've never seen any of the aforementioned men make their military service a campaign talking point like kerry has used his.

if you want to talk about heroes... talk about Bob Dole. there is a humble man who has more to boast about than nearly every politician this century... yet did not allow it to be exploited when people tried to make a big deal of it in his run for the presidency.

all this to say: i don't think anyone has the right to delegitimize kerry's service, but i think the way kerry has used it in his campaign is vulgar compared to how presidential candidates of the past have treated theirs.

I want to add to Superbelt's points:

I don't think Kerry is trying to win voters with his record; rather, he is using it as a rebuttal to certain claims regarding his record insinuating he is anti-american.

He is already an elected official. When his service and dedication to the country began to be questioned, the news reports indicated that he hadn't used his record as a political issue before.

The way I see it is that leftist political thinkers also recognize reality when we see it--despite what others might think. Kerry isn't saying he will end the war, so are being given the choice between two presidents who say the war will continue. Do you see any other candidate out there--one who is promising to end the war? I don't even know very many people who think we should just stop involvement tomorrow. Honestly, I don't even know how I feel about that myself. I can say, however, that I would rather have a president who fought in a war and witnessed its horror (I haven't met anyone who has argue against this being the case--and more of my familiy is military than not) be the one guiding the government right now. And let's be clear, I don't want someone to run the nation--that's our job--I just want someone to guide the government.

Superbelt · 04-16-2004, 03:15 AM

Col David Hackworth
http://www.guardian.co.uk/waronterro...582658,00.html
just to back up my earlier statments about him. To get this in his own words read his Autobiography About Face.

Quote:

Hackworth's critics might like to dismiss him as a battlefield dinosaur; most are wise enough not to try. After his public denunciation of the Vietnam war, he left the army and headed to Australia, where he gave his medals away to a class of 12-year-olds, burned his uniform, lived under the stars and smoked - and inhaled - a little dope. Nearly 20 years later, after making himself a fistful of money by selling a Brisbane restaurant and starting Australia's first Peking Duck farm, he returned to the US.

mml · 04-16-2004, 09:55 AM

I don' know if anyone cares, but here is a list of the Military Service of U.S. Presidents.

http://www.magweb.com/sample/wl020pre.htm

Military Service of Presidents
of the United States
George Washington to Bill Clinton
by Russ Lockwood

Military Service of Presidents of the United States
President State Term of Office Summary of military service
From To
George Washington Va. 30 Apr 1789 4 Mar 1797 Virginia Militia 1754-58; on General Braddock's staff in 1755; appointed C-in-C of armed forces of the Co 1783; commissioned Lt Gen and appointed to command of US Army on a standby basis 3 Jul 1798; died 14 Dec 1799.
John Adams Mass 4 Mar 1797 4 Mar 1801 No record of service.
Thomas Jefferson Va 4 Mar 1801 4 Mar 1809 No record of service.
James Madison Va 4 Mar 1809 4 Mar 1817 No record of service.
James Monroe Va 4 Mar 1817 4 Mar 1825 2d Lt to Maj in Revolutionary War serving from 28 Sep 1775 to 20 Dec 1778.
John Q. Adams Mass 4 Mar 1825 4 Mar 1829 No record of service.
Andrew Jackson Tenn 4 Mar 1829 4 Mar 1837 Maj Gen of Volunteers 1812-14; Brig Gen in US Army 19 Apr 1814; Maj Gen in US Army 1 May 1814; discharged 1 Jun 1821.
Martin Van Buren N.Y. 4 Mar 1937 4 Mar 1841 No record of service.
William H. Harrison Ohio 4 Mar 1841 4 Apr 1841 Ensign to Capt in US Army 1791-98; resigned 1 Jun 1798; appointed Brig Gen, US Army, 22 Aug 1812 and Maj Gen 2 Mar 1813; resigned 31 May 1814.
John Tyler Va 4 Apr 1841 4 Mar 1845 Raised a company for the defense of Richmond in 1813.
James K. Polk Tenn 4 Mar 1845 4 Mar 1849 No record of service.
Zachary Taylor La 4 Mar 1849 9 Jul 1850 Rose from 1st Lt, 3 May 1808 to Maj Gen 29 Jun 1846, US Army, with service in War of 1812 and Mexican War; out of service only from 15 Jun 1815 to 17 May 1816; resigned 31 Jan 1849.
Millard Fillmore N.Y. 9 Jul 1850 4 Mar 1853 No record of service.
Franklin Pierce N. H. 4 Mar 1853 4 Mar 1857 Private to Brig Gen of Volunteers 1846-48 for service in Mexican War.
James Buchanan Pa 4 Mar 1857 4 Mar 1861 No record of service.
Abraham Lincoln Ill. 4 Mar 1861 15 Apr 1865 Capt of Volunteers 21 Apr 1832-27 May 1832; private in Volunteers 29 May 1832-16 Jun 1832 during Black Hawk War.
Andrew Johnson Tenn 15 Apr 1865 4 Mar 1869 Brig Gen of Volunteers 4 Mar 1862-3 Mar 1865 serving as military governor of Tennessee.
Ulysses S. Grant D.C. 4 Mar 1869 4 Mar 1877 Cadet USMA 1839-43; rose from brevet 2d Lt to Capt 1 Jul 1843; resigned 31 Jul 1854 with service in Mexican War; Col of Volunteers 17 Jun 1861 to Gen US Army 25 Jul 1866; commanding general, US Army, 12 Mar 1864-3 Mar 1869.
Rutherford B. Hayes Ohio 4 Mar 1877 4 Mar 1881 Maj of Volunteers 27 Jun 1861 to Brig Gen of Volunteers 19 Oct 1864; brevet Maj Gen 13 Mar 1865; resigned 8 Jun 1865.
James A Garfield Ohio 4 Mar 1881 19 Sep1881 Lt Col of Volunteers 21 Aug 1861 to Maj Gen of Volunteers 19 Sep 1863; resigned 5 Dee 1863.
Chester A. Arthur N.Y. 20 Sep 1881 4 Mar 1885 Inspector general and quartermaster general of New York Militia in Civil War. No Federal service.
Grover Cleveland N.Y. 4 Mar 1885 4 Mar 1889 No record of service.
Benjamin Harrison Ind. 4 Mar 1889 4 Mar 1893 2d Lt of Volunteers 14 Jul 1862 to Col of Volunteers 7 Aug 1862; brevet Brig Gen 23 Jan 1865; mustered out 8 Jun 1865.
Grover Cleveland N.Y. 4 Mar 1893 4 Mar 1897 No record of service.
William McKinley Ohio 4 Mar 1897 14 Sep 1901 Private in Volunteers 23 Jun 1861 to Capt of Volunteers 25 Jul 1864; brevet Maj 13 Mar 1865; mustered out 26 Jul 1865.
Theodore Roosevelt N.Y. 14 Sep 1901 4 Mar 1909 Lt Col of Volunteers 6 May 1898 to Col 11 Jul 1898; mustered out 15 Sep 1898.
William H. Taft Ohio 4 Mar 1909 4 Mar 1913 No record of service.
Woodrow Wilson N.J. 4 Mar 1913 4 Mar 1921 No record of service.
Warren G. Harding Ohio 4 Mar 1921 2 Aug 1923 No record of service.
Calvin Coolidge Mass 3 Aug 1923 4 Mar 1929 No record of service.
Herbert Hoover Calif 4 Mar 1929 4 Mar 1933 No record of service.
Franklin D. Roosevelt N.Y. 4 Mar 1933 12 Apr 1945 No record of service.
Harry S. Truman Mo. 12 Apr 1945 20 Jan 1953 1st Lt in National Guard 1917 (entered Guard in 1905) to Capt 11 Nov 1918; remained in Reserves after WWI; Col in Reserves 1927.
Dwight D. Eisenhower N.Y. 20 Jan 1953 20 Jan 1961 Cadet USMA 1911-15; 2d Lt in RA 12 Jun 1915 to General of the Army 20 Dec 1944; Chief of Staff 19 Nov 1945 to 7 Feb 1948; resigned 18 Jul 1952; served in WW I and commanded ETO in WWII
John F. Kennedy Mass 20 Jan 1961 22 Nov 1963 Commander, US Navy WWII.
Lyndon B. Johnson Tex 22 Nov 1963 20 Jan 1969 Lt. Commander, US Navy, WWII, Commander US Naval Reserves 1948.
Richard M. Nixon Calif 20 Jan 1969 9 Aug 1974 Lt. Commander, WWII.
Gerald R. Ford Mich. 9 Aug 1974 20 Jan 1977 Lt. Commander, US Navy, WWII.
Jimmy Carter Ga. 20 Jan 1977 20 Jan 1981 Lt. Commander, US Navy 1946-1953.
Ronald W. Reagan Calif 20 Jan 1981 20 Jan 1989 Acted in US Army training films.
George H.W. Bush Tex 20 Jan 1989 20 Jan 1993 Lt. WWII, US Navy pilot.
William J. Clinton Ark. 20 Jan 1993 20 Jan 2001 No record of service.

It does not include George W. Bush, but he was a Lieutenant in the Texas Air National Guard and flew F-102's.

If you notice, most Presidents have served in some capacity:

12 presidents did not serve in the military---John Adams, John Quincy Adams, Van Buren, Polk, , Taft, Wilson, Harding, Coolidge, Hoover, FDR and Clinton. Cleveland actually paid someone to fight in his place during the Civil War which was legal and not all that unusual at the time--a kind of pay as you go family deferment).
Of the 30 who served all were officers but James Buchanan who was a Private.
3 rose to the highest rank
General of the Army (5 Stars) - Washington, Grant and Eisenhower
5 Major Generals (2 Stars)
4 Brigadier Generals (1 Star)
3 Colonels
1 Lt Colonel
7 Majors (Navy=Lt. Commander)
2 Captains
4 1st Lieutenants (Navy - Lt. JG)

Andrew Jackson was the youngest to enlist. He joined the South Carolina militia at 13.

23 served in the Army, 6 in the Navy and 1in the Air Force.

15 saw action in combat.

2 pilots - H. Bush and son W Bush
1 submariner, Carter.

2 graduated from West Point Military Academy - Grant and Eisenhouer
1 from Annapolis Naval Academy - Carter.

HarmlessRabbit · 04-16-2004, 08:47 PM

Thanks mml, that was interesting to see.

Kadath · 04-17-2004, 05:27 AM

Uh, I noticed you listed Reagan as "serving" by being in training films. That seems a little hokey to me. I'm counting the rank numbers and wondering what Reagan's rank as an actor was. If I add the 30 who served and the 12 who didn't, I get 42. Did you throw Bush (number 43) into those rank numbers?

Otherwise, yes, quite interesting.

Zeld2.0 · 04-17-2004, 08:28 AM

he stated he didnt throw bush 43 in there

Kadath · 04-19-2004, 04:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Zeld2.0
he stated he didnt throw bush 43 in there

But then he's listed as a pilot on the bottom. The original list didn't include him, but he could have modified the stats. When I count the LT.s on the list I get three, so it seems like he's in there, but if he's not, what's Reagan's rank?

irateplatypus · 04-19-2004, 12:48 PM

http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/history/wwii/rr.htm

it appears reagan enlisted as a private, got a commission... and ended up a captain.

he did appear in films for the military during his service

04-15-2004, 11:32 AM	#44 (permalink)
Mr. Mojo Addict Location: NYC	Which medals did he throw over the Capitol Fence when he was protesting the war? I know he threw someone else's medals and kept his own (which he framed years later for the wall in his Senate office.) But I'd still like to know which were worthless to him when he came back. __________________ When I jerk off I feel good for about twenty seconds and then WHAM it's right back into suicidal depression

04-15-2004, 01:49 PM	#47 (permalink)
Mr. Mojo Addict Location: NYC	I don’t see how my post is a troll. This thread is about his medals, and so was my post. It’s a valid question. Which medals did he throw? I never called Kerry "unpatriotic or wrong to publicly oppose something". I never would, he put on a uniform, that’s enough proof for me. Protesters are fine, as long as you don't keep me stopped up in traffic. __________________ When I jerk off I feel good for about twenty seconds and then WHAM it's right back into suicidal depression

04-15-2004, 02:11 PM	#49 (permalink)
tecoyah Illusionary	Those who live in Glass houses......... I have an Idea, Anyone who has been shot at in the line of duty please feel free to be critical of someone who has been thru the same. Any one who has not been threatened with impending death while protecting American Freedoms, please refrain from attempting to debase someone for doing it for you. I cannot and will not be critical of ANY American soldier without knowing exactly what they have done, and why. I do not have the right, and neither do most of you. It will hurt no one to show a measure of respect for Veterans of the Wars that allow you to have this discussion. You can be critical of his politics, or his personality, even his Family......But it is inappropriate to speculate unfairly, on an issue we can not understand, until we have lived it. __________________ Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

04-15-2004, 07:31 PM	#53 (permalink)
irateplatypus can't help but laugh Location: dar al-harb	i'll side with the traditionally left leaning posters in defending kerry's war record because no matter the circumstances they (his medals) were awarded to him... he still put himself in harms way for a while, more than many in his generation were willing to do. even if you could prove that he did it for a political future, that still takes guts whatever the motivation. i'm just confused why this is all of the sudden a positive aspect of kerry's campaign. since when did democrats push military service as a positive factor in political leadership? Nixon, Ford, Reagan, Bush Senior and GWB have all performed military service and i've not seen these two things come from that... 1. i've never seen a liberal cede the point that their military service makes them more qualified for office. 2. i've never seen any of the aforementioned men make their military service a campaign talking point like kerry has used his. if you want to talk about heroes... talk about Bob Dole. there is a humble man who has more to boast about than nearly every politician this century... yet did not allow it to be exploited when people tried to make a big deal of it in his run for the presidency. all this to say: i don't think anyone has the right to delegitimize kerry's service, but i think the way kerry has used it in his campaign is vulgar compared to how presidential candidates of the past have treated theirs. __________________ If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves. ~ Winston Churchill

04-16-2004, 09:55 AM	#58 (permalink)
mml Adrift Location: Wandering in the Desert of Life	I don' know if anyone cares, but here is a list of the Military Service of U.S. Presidents. http://www.magweb.com/sample/wl020pre.htm Military Service of Presidents of the United States George Washington to Bill Clinton by Russ Lockwood Military Service of Presidents of the United States President State Term of Office Summary of military service From To George Washington Va. 30 Apr 1789 4 Mar 1797 Virginia Militia 1754-58; on General Braddock's staff in 1755; appointed C-in-C of armed forces of the Co 1783; commissioned Lt Gen and appointed to command of US Army on a standby basis 3 Jul 1798; died 14 Dec 1799. John Adams Mass 4 Mar 1797 4 Mar 1801 No record of service. Thomas Jefferson Va 4 Mar 1801 4 Mar 1809 No record of service. James Madison Va 4 Mar 1809 4 Mar 1817 No record of service. James Monroe Va 4 Mar 1817 4 Mar 1825 2d Lt to Maj in Revolutionary War serving from 28 Sep 1775 to 20 Dec 1778. John Q. Adams Mass 4 Mar 1825 4 Mar 1829 No record of service. Andrew Jackson Tenn 4 Mar 1829 4 Mar 1837 Maj Gen of Volunteers 1812-14; Brig Gen in US Army 19 Apr 1814; Maj Gen in US Army 1 May 1814; discharged 1 Jun 1821. Martin Van Buren N.Y. 4 Mar 1937 4 Mar 1841 No record of service. William H. Harrison Ohio 4 Mar 1841 4 Apr 1841 Ensign to Capt in US Army 1791-98; resigned 1 Jun 1798; appointed Brig Gen, US Army, 22 Aug 1812 and Maj Gen 2 Mar 1813; resigned 31 May 1814. John Tyler Va 4 Apr 1841 4 Mar 1845 Raised a company for the defense of Richmond in 1813. James K. Polk Tenn 4 Mar 1845 4 Mar 1849 No record of service. Zachary Taylor La 4 Mar 1849 9 Jul 1850 Rose from 1st Lt, 3 May 1808 to Maj Gen 29 Jun 1846, US Army, with service in War of 1812 and Mexican War; out of service only from 15 Jun 1815 to 17 May 1816; resigned 31 Jan 1849. Millard Fillmore N.Y. 9 Jul 1850 4 Mar 1853 No record of service. Franklin Pierce N. H. 4 Mar 1853 4 Mar 1857 Private to Brig Gen of Volunteers 1846-48 for service in Mexican War. James Buchanan Pa 4 Mar 1857 4 Mar 1861 No record of service. Abraham Lincoln Ill. 4 Mar 1861 15 Apr 1865 Capt of Volunteers 21 Apr 1832-27 May 1832; private in Volunteers 29 May 1832-16 Jun 1832 during Black Hawk War. Andrew Johnson Tenn 15 Apr 1865 4 Mar 1869 Brig Gen of Volunteers 4 Mar 1862-3 Mar 1865 serving as military governor of Tennessee. Ulysses S. Grant D.C. 4 Mar 1869 4 Mar 1877 Cadet USMA 1839-43; rose from brevet 2d Lt to Capt 1 Jul 1843; resigned 31 Jul 1854 with service in Mexican War; Col of Volunteers 17 Jun 1861 to Gen US Army 25 Jul 1866; commanding general, US Army, 12 Mar 1864-3 Mar 1869. Rutherford B. Hayes Ohio 4 Mar 1877 4 Mar 1881 Maj of Volunteers 27 Jun 1861 to Brig Gen of Volunteers 19 Oct 1864; brevet Maj Gen 13 Mar 1865; resigned 8 Jun 1865. James A Garfield Ohio 4 Mar 1881 19 Sep1881 Lt Col of Volunteers 21 Aug 1861 to Maj Gen of Volunteers 19 Sep 1863; resigned 5 Dee 1863. Chester A. Arthur N.Y. 20 Sep 1881 4 Mar 1885 Inspector general and quartermaster general of New York Militia in Civil War. No Federal service. Grover Cleveland N.Y. 4 Mar 1885 4 Mar 1889 No record of service. Benjamin Harrison Ind. 4 Mar 1889 4 Mar 1893 2d Lt of Volunteers 14 Jul 1862 to Col of Volunteers 7 Aug 1862; brevet Brig Gen 23 Jan 1865; mustered out 8 Jun 1865. Grover Cleveland N.Y. 4 Mar 1893 4 Mar 1897 No record of service. William McKinley Ohio 4 Mar 1897 14 Sep 1901 Private in Volunteers 23 Jun 1861 to Capt of Volunteers 25 Jul 1864; brevet Maj 13 Mar 1865; mustered out 26 Jul 1865. Theodore Roosevelt N.Y. 14 Sep 1901 4 Mar 1909 Lt Col of Volunteers 6 May 1898 to Col 11 Jul 1898; mustered out 15 Sep 1898. William H. Taft Ohio 4 Mar 1909 4 Mar 1913 No record of service. Woodrow Wilson N.J. 4 Mar 1913 4 Mar 1921 No record of service. Warren G. Harding Ohio 4 Mar 1921 2 Aug 1923 No record of service. Calvin Coolidge Mass 3 Aug 1923 4 Mar 1929 No record of service. Herbert Hoover Calif 4 Mar 1929 4 Mar 1933 No record of service. Franklin D. Roosevelt N.Y. 4 Mar 1933 12 Apr 1945 No record of service. Harry S. Truman Mo. 12 Apr 1945 20 Jan 1953 1st Lt in National Guard 1917 (entered Guard in 1905) to Capt 11 Nov 1918; remained in Reserves after WWI; Col in Reserves 1927. Dwight D. Eisenhower N.Y. 20 Jan 1953 20 Jan 1961 Cadet USMA 1911-15; 2d Lt in RA 12 Jun 1915 to General of the Army 20 Dec 1944; Chief of Staff 19 Nov 1945 to 7 Feb 1948; resigned 18 Jul 1952; served in WW I and commanded ETO in WWII John F. Kennedy Mass 20 Jan 1961 22 Nov 1963 Commander, US Navy WWII. Lyndon B. Johnson Tex 22 Nov 1963 20 Jan 1969 Lt. Commander, US Navy, WWII, Commander US Naval Reserves 1948. Richard M. Nixon Calif 20 Jan 1969 9 Aug 1974 Lt. Commander, WWII. Gerald R. Ford Mich. 9 Aug 1974 20 Jan 1977 Lt. Commander, US Navy, WWII. Jimmy Carter Ga. 20 Jan 1977 20 Jan 1981 Lt. Commander, US Navy 1946-1953. Ronald W. Reagan Calif 20 Jan 1981 20 Jan 1989 Acted in US Army training films. George H.W. Bush Tex 20 Jan 1989 20 Jan 1993 Lt. WWII, US Navy pilot. William J. Clinton Ark. 20 Jan 1993 20 Jan 2001 No record of service. It does not include George W. Bush, but he was a Lieutenant in the Texas Air National Guard and flew F-102's. If you notice, most Presidents have served in some capacity: 12 presidents did not serve in the military---John Adams, John Quincy Adams, Van Buren, Polk, , Taft, Wilson, Harding, Coolidge, Hoover, FDR and Clinton. Cleveland actually paid someone to fight in his place during the Civil War which was legal and not all that unusual at the time--a kind of pay as you go family deferment). Of the 30 who served all were officers but James Buchanan who was a Private. 3 rose to the highest rank General of the Army (5 Stars) - Washington, Grant and Eisenhower 5 Major Generals (2 Stars) 4 Brigadier Generals (1 Star) 3 Colonels 1 Lt Colonel 7 Majors (Navy=Lt. Commander) 2 Captains 4 1st Lieutenants (Navy - Lt. JG) Andrew Jackson was the youngest to enlist. He joined the South Carolina militia at 13. 23 served in the Army, 6 in the Navy and 1in the Air Force. 15 saw action in combat. 2 pilots - H. Bush and son W Bush 1 submariner, Carter. 2 graduated from West Point Military Academy - Grant and Eisenhouer 1 from Annapolis Naval Academy - Carter. __________________ Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so." -Douglas Adams

04-14-2004, 08:10 PM	#41 (permalink)
analog Banned	Strike 1 for this thread- opening article posted included no commentary from which to build discussion. It's caused a lot of general comments, not a discussion, and a rather unpleasant number of posts that are entirely sarcasm.

04-15-2004, 10:18 AM	#42 (permalink)
jcookc6 Psycho Location: Venice, Florida	Pan6467, In John Kerry's case what you say is exactly true. He has patterned his life after John F. Kennedy. Everything he has done in his life has been with one goal in mind. Be President of the United States.

04-15-2004, 05:21 PM	#50 (permalink)
Zeld2.0 Cherry-pickin' devil's advocate Location: Los Angeles	Sadly tecoyah some people find it funner to ridicule vets based on party lines Seriously though, I agree tecoyah and personally I find it despicable people question others based on some political line

04-15-2004, 07:44 PM	#54 (permalink)
Superbelt This vexes me. I am terribly vexed. Location: Grantville, Pa	All I want to add the the discussion of him tossing medals over the capital wall is: The most decorated american veteran in US history, Col. David Hackworth gave all his medals away to little kids in Australia because they meant absolutely nothing to him. He felt that since they were given to him by a military who made disgusting decisions and irrationally put americans in harms way when it was not needed that he didn't want to associate with them anymore.

04-16-2004, 08:47 PM	#59 (permalink)
HarmlessRabbit Junkie Location: San Jose, CA	Thanks mml, that was interesting to see.

04-17-2004, 05:27 AM	#60 (permalink)
Kadath Muffled Location: Camazotz	Uh, I noticed you listed Reagan as "serving" by being in training films. That seems a little hokey to me. I'm counting the rank numbers and wondering what Reagan's rank as an actor was. If I add the 30 who served and the 12 who didn't, I get 42. Did you throw Bush (number 43) into those rank numbers? Otherwise, yes, quite interesting. __________________ it's quiet in here

04-17-2004, 08:28 AM	#61 (permalink)
Zeld2.0 Cherry-pickin' devil's advocate Location: Los Angeles	he stated he didnt throw bush 43 in there

04-19-2004, 12:48 PM	#63 (permalink)
irateplatypus can't help but laugh Location: dar al-harb	http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/history/wwii/rr.htm it appears reagan enlisted as a private, got a commission... and ended up a captain. he did appear in films for the military during his service __________________ If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves. ~ Winston Churchill