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Old 05-06-2003, 01:01 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Location: The Event Horizon
Eyes Opened / Apology Extended

In the last 14 years of my life I’ve traveled a journey that has basically led me to a frustrating end. The journey I refer to is my search, development, and support of the political belief system that I can give my loyalties to. I put it that way because its part of my desire; like so many others, to work towards creating liberty in my life. The liberty I’m referring to is the time I have available to utilize and enjoy the fruits of my labor in ways of my choosing. (A heart surgeon for example may earn high wages, but a constant necessity of being on call subtracts their ability to achieve large amounts of liberty) The other part of what I consider my success is contributing back; outward. This will be in any way that’s within my power. (I’d like to help troubled teens by getting them into martial arts programs, establishing some scholarship funds and many other things) Financial success obviously has to be part of what I’m creating.

I’m still learning everyday and will continue to do so, but I also know I’ve learned a lot up to this point as well. I remember back before I felt I had somewhat of a handle on what the political parties were all about I considered myself a democrat. This was because I was going against everything the rest of my family was about being Republicans. I thought that Democrats were for “the people” and the Republicans were for the “upper elite”. A lot has changed since then. When I entered the military I followed the conservative mindset. The disappointment was high for me when Bill Clinton became president, as I had voted for Bush senior to be reelected. Great deals of my beliefs have changed since then as well.

Studies of world commerce, past congressional records, declassified government documents, history, as well as my own experiences of international travel both in and out of the military has shaped my perception into questioning everything and subscribing to neither of the two main choices that appear on the election ballot. As Label, in what has now almost become tradition, my views would force even the strongest to don the tin foil helmets. Why have I gone into such an extended explanation? To hopefully give some meaning to the apology that I’m about to extend. That’s for those that even care, for those that don’t I understand and it’s all good.

In the last TFP there was a thread that asked who will be first to step up and admit they were wrong about condemning President Bush’s war plans. It doesn’t matter if I’m the only one to do so I was most definitely WRONG. I have other issues with the President, but perhaps at a different time, maybe never will they be brought up. As far as Iraq was concerned it was my thinking the President was acting like “a cowboy” war tyrant with his cabinet buddies ready to pounce on post Iraq for private financial gain. This all at the cost of our service members and Iraqi civilians. I had heard and read how bad Saddam was and al the terrible things he had done, but it wasn’t until last night a friend brought over a video and I observed a History channel presentation of Saddam’s biography.

The video was enough to sway my opinion, but the special truly opened my eyes. I couldn’t even finish watching it. The horrific scenes were too much for me to stomach. Entire towns filled with corpses, thousands of dead babies clinging to their dead mothers, other things so horrible I resent the fact they were shown on TV. I heard our leaders say what a killer Saddam was, but it never sunk in.

Here’s where I stand: I don’t care if they never find weapons of mass destruction, I don’t care if any member of the current political leadership makes any kind of gain; that murderous !@#**##@@ @#*!%^$@ had to be stopped. Rumsfeld who I was growing to truly dislike made a statement a few weeks ago that now Saddam will take his place in History next to Hitler and others. Well he indeed has. If I had seen what I saw months ago my views of the administrations foreign policy would have been much different.

As stated above I want to offer my apology to those I offended with pictures I posted a week ago of “supposed satellite images” I had seen flame wars beginning to kindle and thought if I posted what I did (in the tradition of political cartoons) they might have help tone down the tone though humor. It was also my smart-ass way to poke fun of both political parties. I will ask a moderator to take them down, but I will go to the server where they reside and take them down there as well. So if you see blank spots on the threads where they were that’s why. I have dishonored the deaths of all the innocent people that died by posting them and feel very bad about that. I don’t think I’ll ever get the images of what I saw out of my head; and I’ve seen and done some very bad things. Again I apologize to anyone I may have offended, it wasn’t a proper post; even for the humor thread.

To anyone that may have read this to the end I hope you understand that if I disagree with your views or you with mine (conspiracy theories galore) the foundation I what I believe is that everyone should be able to live free, no one is above the law, and that I want our planet and future generations to excel. Andrew Carnegie stated that 10% of the population is going the right direction, 10% the wrong and 80% are complacent. He understood that he wouldnt need to devote his time to the first group, but focus solely on the second. This was because he felt the second at least had passion, while the third had achieved a social numbness that only death would cure. I don’t see any here being in the third. Regardless of which group I view you in I respect the fact you care about what you’re saying.

President Bush made the right decision in using military force. Whether or not any WMB are found the world is a better place without Saddam Hussein. In staying true to my word and maintaining my self honor, I also sent an apology to the President via email. I doubt he’ll get it personally, but I stated I would do it here it is:

From: "myrealname" <myrealname@cox.net>
To: <president@whitehouse.gov>
Subject: Formal Apology
Date: Tue, 6 May 2003 01:52:46 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="----=_NextPart_000_003A_01C31372.30E0BC60"
X-Priority: 3
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106
Disposition-Notification-To: "myrealname" <myrealname@cox.net>
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106

Mr. President,

I feel compelled to offer you my deepest apology. This is in regards to my verbal protest of your decision to send troops to Iraq. I have learned and observed elements which I was not fully aware of upon drawing my initial conclusions. You, your cabinet, and our service men and women did a historically superb job in ending the evil of the Baath Party Reign. Thank you for being steadfast in this difficult time. There may be a percentage of Americans that don’t comprehend the great thing you’ve done, please know that this one who now does. Thank you again.

Respectfully,

Myrealname


Sorry about the length of this post.
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Last edited by Sun Tzu; 05-17-2003 at 11:55 AM..
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Old 05-06-2003, 01:22 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Only one comment here, and off-topic even: next time, please use a better, clearer lay-out for your rant (paragraphs); makes it much easier to read and comprehend.
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Old 05-06-2003, 02:04 AM   #3 (permalink)
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I agree with Dragonlich, a bit difficult to read, but I got the gist of it. (I just noticed for some reason it looks better on the reply/preview page, odd.)

You have just been knocked up 10 pegs on my respect ladder. Not because of what stand you took on an issue, but because you processed new information instead of brushing it off, and changed your mind on a position that you have voiced for the past few months, and then had the guts to stand up and admit in front of the very people whom you have been debating with that you think were wrong.

Again, this isn't a matter of which position you took. If sixate suddenly expressed his love of Hillary Clinton I would feel the exact same way.

Take this as a learning experience. No matter how much you think you're right, there's always the possibility that you're wrong. When people realize they're wrong, the weaker will ignore the new information and stick to their position for fear of looking silly. This is the majority of what is wrong with the world. If you don't allow yourself to change your mind, you never grow. If you never grow, you may as well be dead.
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Old 05-06-2003, 03:25 AM   #4 (permalink)
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I never thought I would see it here. I guess it just goes to show, people are capable of the unexpected. Congratulations on having the courage and wisdom to accept that a previous opinion may have been wrong. I'm not saying it was wrong, just that its good you are willing to accept and admit the possibility. I think a lot of people can learn from this attitude, myself included.
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Old 05-06-2003, 05:19 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Me too!
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Old 05-06-2003, 07:00 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Urm, so what was the reason for war? Wasn't it WMD? Or now is it human rights?

That documentary was meant exactly for such purpose. Emotional propoganda.

I bet they don't show documentaries of how CIA deals with people. Or how USA asks its allies like Pakistan etc to perform torture for them.
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Old 05-06-2003, 08:55 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by oane
Urm, so what was the reason for war? Wasn't it WMD? Or now is it human rights?

That documentary was meant exactly for such purpose. Emotional propoganda.

I bet they don't show documentaries of how CIA deals with people. Or how USA asks its allies like Pakistan etc to perform torture for them.

YEP!

I'm sure that the CIA and our Allies are EVERY BIT as bad as Saddam!

As a matter of fact, I think there is a mass grave of women and children the CIA tortured and executed in my backyard!

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Old 05-06-2003, 09:02 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Theyve hidden thousand of them in the Panhandle of Oklahoma - figured no one in their right mind would look for them there!
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Old 05-06-2003, 09:18 AM   #9 (permalink)
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I would like to cast my vote with most everyone else:

It takes a big person to take information, process it, and change one's mind. It takes a bigger person to then tell the world (or at least TFP) about it. You appear to be both.

It is the standard to which we should all strive. Thanks for the post!
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Old 05-06-2003, 10:03 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Thank you for emailing President Bush. Your commentary is very important to him. Support from American citizens to United States military personnel; both on a national and international level did more than most realize. High moral coexists with exception training and it was important for our troops to know that their country was behind them; when portions of the world were not.

Unfortunately, because of the large volume of email received, the President cannot personally respond to each message. However, the White House staff considers and reports citizen ideas, concerns, and commentary such as yours directly to the President.

Again, thank you for your email. Your interest in the work of President Bush and his administration is appreciated.

Sincerely,
The White House Office of E-Correspondence
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Old 05-06-2003, 10:13 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Yay for generic automated email reponses!
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Old 05-06-2003, 10:51 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Shokan
Yay for generic automated email reponses!
with spelling errors to boot!

@Sun Tzu

Congrats on your ability to change your standpoint and on your openness to others about your decision.
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Old 05-06-2003, 11:56 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Here, here. Credit to you for admiting to your change of heart.

Personally I still remain resolutely against the war. The laws of our respective nations and international law is not consequentialist in nature. One cannot be let off throwing bricks off rooftops, simply because they hit a bank robber fleeing the scene of their crime. Maybe we should be lenient in our indictment of the US because the war was short and a cruel dictator overthrown. Nonetheless Bush acted as a vigilante in the face of UN disaproval, and for that he remains guilty as charged. He may not be so lucky next time.
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Old 05-06-2003, 12:11 PM   #14 (permalink)
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It takes a very big person to apologize. You deserve a lot of credit for this.
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Old 05-06-2003, 01:36 PM   #15 (permalink)
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great that you send him an email.. if you sent your mailing address you'd get a letter from him as well... it's still a canned response but it is neat to see a letter with the presidential seal on it in your mailbox.
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Old 05-06-2003, 01:44 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Even though I don't share your view, I think it's good that you're honest enough to follow what you feel is right, and brave enough to change your oppinion and admit that you feel that you were wrong.

An open thinking mind, thats the key
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Old 05-06-2003, 04:20 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Sun Tzu,
each post of yours impresses me more.

You are exceptionally forthcoming, fair-minded, and well-spoken.
That's appreciated as much as your particular point of view.
Pleased you are here.
Thanks.
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Old 05-06-2003, 05:19 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by oane
Urm, so what was the reason for war? Wasn't it WMD? Or now is it human rights?

That documentary was meant exactly for such purpose. Emotional propoganda.

I bet they don't show documentaries of how CIA deals with people. Or how USA asks its allies like Pakistan etc to perform torture for them.

oane you’re talking to someone that makes the Lone Gunmen look like postal workers. I understand what you’re saying and I understand you don't know me. I'm a hard critic about everything. I overanalyze the fact I overanalyze. I recognize propaganda and see it coming (most of the time) I’m not one that goes to three or four websites, watches FOX and CNN for contrast, or takes the daily newspaper as my ticket to reality. I don't travel as much anymore because of my schedule, I certainly wont go to the middle east any time soon, which is a shame; I've seen some amazing things in Israel and the Palestinian territories, Sinai as well. Without being there what else do we have?

I'm assuming you didn't see the documentary. As far as I'm concerned if it was structured to only show the bad side of Saddam; it was enough for me. When is the line drawn on what is acceptable data that our brains are seeing as the truth. Any time I see a potential tin foil hat evolution I always attempt to find what I can at http://www.house.gov/ , at GW University you’ll have access to declassified intelligence reports I suggest joining the mailing list http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/...23/index2.html , http://www.archives.gov ,

Then again you weren’t there so finding documents at the above places even if sent to you in hard copy which they will do, doesn’t prove any of its true, right? Let’s say you do find what you’re looking for. Let’s say you can provide material that gives you tools to debate confidently with the best of them, then what? Form an army? Start a revolution?

I’ve seen things come from every angle; I’ve seen ten versions of an historical event posted in the forum at the same time. Everybody’s right; everyone’s wrong? It’s not for me to say. I came to the conclusion that I can either become a hermit, accept the fact that I will never be able to start a family, and go find a cave somewhere in the hills OR

Continue to study world commerce, learn the game of the federal reserve and make it work for me, generate a position of financial liberation as anyone is capable and entitled to do and then reassess what I can do to contribute to making this country a better place. What I’m doing now isn’t contributing to me creating the things I want in life. If I’m going to continue to do the same thing; than I have to expect the same results. There are certain things happening that I will do what I can to peacefully protest, but complaining about the different ways and methods the US grants me freedom to complain about the US isn’t for me at this point.

The documentary was powerful enough with (what appeared to be factual footage) to get a glimpse of what Saddam was like; it was enough. I don’t care what label one gives it, he’s right there with Hitler.

I know about some of the things the CIA has probably done; I don’t have to like them. Do you think the US would be a safer, better place without it? Not me.
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Old 05-06-2003, 07:07 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Sun Tzu,

I failed to express my appreciation earlier for your heart felt post and that was a diservice to it.

I'm sorry we haven't yet found the WMD's that we were told were there (and I still expect them to find), but I am in complete agreement with you. Saddam was an inhuman monster that needed to be gotten rid of.

That you could publicaly recant a former heartfelt position moves you onto my personal "A" list of people with integrity. I hope I am as courageous if and when the time comes.
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Old 05-06-2003, 08:51 PM   #20 (permalink)
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I am certainly understanding of your change of heart, and was moderately moved by your words.

The question I would like to ask is: Was the documentary the decision point of your turning of a new leaf?

What about the other countries with rulers just as despotic? Should we wage war till we right all wrongs? and who decides what's wrong? There are certainly other rulers around the world with horrible human rights track records just as bad, if not worse, than Saddam Hussein.

And what does America do about these 'despotic tyrants,' why we negotiate with them and reward them with scraps from our table.

I don't mean to belittle your swayed opinion, quite the contrary, I commend you for having the flexibility to change at all.

Like Lebell, I just hope that when the time comes for me to racant, I can do it with a fraction of the eloquence that you have.
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Old 05-06-2003, 10:01 PM   #21 (permalink)
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I still have major reservations about this.

If you've learned anything from this experience, it shouldn't be that you were wrong, and Bush right, it should be that you don't know everything, and neither does he. No one does.

This is all far from over. If you'd like to use the ends justify the means approach, then by all means, judge this war after Iraq has been rebuilt, until then, it's far too early to be judging and apologizing, although the neo-conservative element on the board will surely congratulate you for it.

Just remember, we opened the floodgates. We've changed 50 years of successful established military doctrine, by changing our language from containment to pre-emption. I don't think this is a good thing. It suggest we're going to engage in Empire. The writing is on the wall, and ultimately this is bad news.

Until we can properly judge the actions of the President, I hold out this question instead...

What have we really accomplished in Iraq?

I continue to be frustrated because I can't truthfully answer that we've accomplished anything, and I predict that things will turn for the worst in the months to come, mainly because if I know anything about the history of these places, the tribes will all have their vengeance.
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Old 05-06-2003, 10:47 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Skettios I hear you and don’t disagree with you, this is where my I’ve come. When I see a pile of dead baby corpses and other things that my words cant describe the perspective for me changes. I may believe it’s the right position, but I’ll never deny that its only my opinion and understand that’s what most if not all will take it as. A majority of the different views on here all make sense to me, hearing feedback from members of the forum has been valuable in helping me to see different things in different ways.

I certainly don’t post here with a “hey this is my view, this is why I’m right, if you disagree this is why your wrong” attitude.

With much respect to what you stated my thought it very simple: Getting rid of a horrible man that was not going to go away on his own.


guthmund, it’s a valid question and an understandable standpoint. Especially if you read some of my posts from the previous TFP; I was using the name Solaradz---. Conspiracy theorist that thought the conservatives were only in it to make money, and the democrats were trying to communize us by what he’s stating in his posts---. When Iraq began to flare up I had nothing good to say about the current administration’s foreign policy, but then again I really didn’t have anything good to say about anything or anyone in present or past leadership roles. From seeing the unfolding from making statements from under my tin foil hat to sending the president an apology in such a short amount of time I relate to where you’re coming from.

Honor and integrity aren’t corny words to me. I still falter from time to time, (usually humor at someone else’s expense and things where I’m the only one laughing. The intervals between are getting wider. I made an agreement which was posted on the forum before that if the intentions of President Bush were shown different from what I was claiming I would send him a formal apology and admit my mistake to the forum. The video itself wasn’t the only element that guided my conclusion and action. Through different experiences I’ve just been growing in different directions. (The day I stop growing is the day I start decaying) A few months ago I may have not even created this thread. I may have continuously thrown a repetitive commentary laced with sarcasm in asking “So where are the WMD?” “Where are they?” “I told you” A few months ago I may have may remarks such as those even after seeing the video. That was yesterday. The person I made the agreement too hasn’t been here, so I could have just slipped silently in the cracks especially with a new name, but I’d been lying to myself. As I've stated in other threads I feel being true to myself, striving for honor are the only gifts that mean anything that I can give to myself in this life.

I had mentioned in the past forum that I would not bash the president any more after seeing the Iraqis jumping in the street with joy. So my shift began there. (To save those that want to tell me there is also protesting going on- I know; that’s another thread, that the statue is a staged event with only a small number of. . . .I read the site you don’t have to tell me) I hope that answers the question of my shift and the correlation of the video.

To answer the other question; “Should we police every else’s problems?” guthmund that very thought is on my mind frequently and perhaps in past deductions I've overlooked the counsel a president gets day to day on issues. While it seems President Bush makes decisions stemming from his own judgment, I'm sure during important foreign policy issues he’s surrounded with suggestions and feedback covering the entire spectrum. IMO having a bunch of yes-men would not be the optimal direction, but ideas ranging from concurrent to open disagreement and action in the opposite direction. Each of these different positions supported with founded reasons why. That is what I hope happens behind closed doors.

In asking should we wage war till we right all the wrongs; I'm unclear on whether you’re stating what I think the present administration should do or what I would do if I were president. In either case its complex; as you probably know. I could write 4 to pages which almost did because in touching one level of this I feel I'd have to touch al levels; it goes deep.

I'll give you a simple answer to keep it short, but understand I’m only on the surface. IMO if innocent men, women, and children are being destroyed I have a problem with it. There are a few areas of the world I think we should be doing more about, but that’s my opinion. I hope that if open massacres were occurring, someone would do something. I would have a hard time relaxing and feeling right if I was complacent about human suffering.

In reference to other hotspots if what I saw in that documentary was happening presently in places such as N Korea, Iran, Syria then yes, I personally would give the order. I say this with respecting that I know it’s not as easy as 1 2 3 and becomes even more complicated when talking about Russia and China.

I hope that gives some what of an idea of where I’m coming from and that mistakes are minimal, I’m nodding at the monitor. Thank god for spell check
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Old 05-06-2003, 11:27 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sun Tzu
oane you’re talking to someone *snip* I know about some of the things the CIA has probably done; I don’t have to like them. Do you think the US would be a safer, better place without it? Not me.
The moral of the story is that people will always accept that version of the story which confirms with their pre-conditioned beliefs, prejudices etc.; rather than go through the "inconvenience" of accepting that they and their beliefs are less than perfect. This applies to all. The whole world sucks. It's a retarded game of emotional manipulation to enhance one's ego and we even try to dub it with intellect. As witnessed here.

Nuke us all, god allah whatever.
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Old 05-07-2003, 10:19 AM   #24 (permalink)
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oane whats the point then? What are we all working for. I get discouraged I wont deny that, sometimes pissed. I dont think a person should ever lower their guard fully, but if risks arent taken in trust it wouldnt be place worth being in. If "story" is even close to controversial, I attempt to believe I dont apply preconditioned beliefs to formulate my conclusion, but critical thinking. People I associate with are from all walks of life with different ways of looking at things. We have debates, opinions, sometimes dead end disagreements, but in the end we each respect one another because of the research done behind of beliefs. I have lost friends, but its because they refused to see the their beliefs WERENT less than perfect.

Debate to me is no incovnience, I'll speak my position with zero hesitation. I dont know if you were in the last forum, but there were threads where I was the only one who could see where i was coming from. I'm sure there will be others here. It hasnt popped up yet, but there is a subject thats very heated that I will definatley not back down on, even though I know hardly anyone will agree. That doesnt mean I'm going to close my mind though.

If what you've witenssed here is giving in on my part to beliefs that I dont truly feel, all I can say is thats not the case. Beyond that you will believe what you will.

If you see the world sucking, then its going to.

If you consider yourself to be a good person and the world sucking, what are you prepared to do or contribute to help change it?
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Old 05-07-2003, 09:04 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sun Tzu
[B]guthmund, it’s a valid question and an understandable standpoint. Especially if you read some of my posts from the previous TFP; I was using the name Solaradz---.
I certainly remember quite a few of your posts. I also remember enjoying more than a few.

Quote:
The video itself wasn’t the only element that guided my conclusion and action. (edit)
I hope that answers the question of my shift and the correlation of the video.
I ask because all too often I see people's opinion swayed sometimes to do 180 degree turn based on little evidence and high emotion. However, I'm glad to see that intense thought and careful balancing of emotions and evidence led you to your decision.

Quote:
To answer the other question; “Should we police every else’s problems?” ... While it seems President Bush makes decisions stemming from his own judgment, I'm sure during important foreign policy issues he’s surrounded with suggestions and feedback covering the entire spectrum.... That is what I hope happens behind closed doors.
There is no doubt in my mind that the President has surrounded himself with very smart people and I'm sure the President is very sincere in his remarks. There are a few in the administration that I respect tremendously (Powell, Rice, Franks, even Mr. Ridge) and the others I fear tremendously (Rumsfeld, Cheney to name a few).
With the smug attitude that these guys carry around, I find it hard to trust them and when they talk of 'national security' every fiber of my being begins screaming in warning.

Quote:
In asking should we wage war till we right all the wrongs; I'm unclear on whether you’re stating what I think the present administration should do or what I would do if I were president.
My intent was either/or.

Quote:
I'll give you a simple answer to keep it short, but understand I’m only on the surface. IMO if innocent men, women, and children are being destroyed I have a problem with it. There are a few areas of the world I think we should be doing more about, but that’s my opinion. I hope that if open massacres were occurring, someone would do something. I would have a hard time relaxing and feeling right if I was complacent about human suffering.
While I feel that all the above should be dealt with, I also feel that if the United States Government wants to right wrongs and help the people, they should start in their own backyard. Until we have dealt with other important issues concerning America, i.e. Public Education, Welfare Reform, Social Security, Unemployment, America should step off the soapbox and stop telling the world how to run itself.

I'd like to think that if I had been living in Iraq during the 20 + years Saddam was in office, I could've managed to find the border or hop a boat somewhere else. I have no sympathy for those who willingly live under the rule of a tyrannical despot simply because they feel there is no other way.

There is always another way. And it really is that simple.

I just don't feel that the United States is the paragon of Moral leadership in the world. I don't think that our soldiers should be policing the world stage. It's obvious, by reaction, that our efforts are either unappreciated or unwanted. We 'liberate' the Iraqi people and now they spit on us and tell us to leave. We are sacrificing the homefront so these guys can instill democracy in a historically turbulent area and this is the thanks that we get?

Is it really worth it? Wouldn't the 70 billion (correct me if I'm wrong) dollars we asked for to pay for this War on Iraq, not to mention the billions we spent on the War on Terror be put to better use here in America itself? I don't know how much the Iraqis appreciate the billions (not much by the demonstrations I've seen on television) but I know families in the midwest who'd love to see that money go towards education, affordable healthcare and in reducing unemployment.
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Old 05-07-2003, 10:10 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Strong and accurate points. Here lies allot of my frustrations. Torn between points that make sense. Do you think the 10 million we give to Israel (that number is 14 months old so it may have changed more or less) in aid daily is beneficial? I wonder what the outcome would be if we pulled all aid to other countries and focused everything back into America what the result would be.

Is it a dammed if you do dammed if you don’t?

I believe allot relates with the Federal Reserve, but Id rather not talk about that in this thread. Perhaps in another. Thanks for your input.

By the way one of my martial training instructors escaped Iraq 20 years ago by climbing through the mountains with his 68 year old mother and two younger sisters, so you are absolutely correct in people finding ways. I suppose emotions do seep in when I see children in pain in any country, let alone dead babies stacked in large piles like garbage, very disturbing, and takes me far beyond rage.
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Old 05-08-2003, 04:11 PM   #27 (permalink)
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I'm not saying we should stop all federal foreign aid. There are certainly some countries that need the money or their people will perish.

I think that the money we spend on developed countries, like Israel, would be better off being spent here.

To answer the next question: 'we're damned if we don't" If American chooses to keep ignoring the problems that our communites face (public education and so on ) it only results in the next generation being more ignorant as a whole and even more poorly prepared for life. Not just that, but also resentful when they see the massive amounts of money being poured out to countries they've never heard of.

America seems hell bent on helping everyone, even at the expense of her own. And that is the wrong attitude to take, in my opinion.

and thank you for yourinput.
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Old 05-08-2003, 10:36 PM   #28 (permalink)
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er... gothmund, how large a percentage of your annual government budget goes to foreign aid? That massive amount of money is *nothing* compared to other expenses...
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Old 05-09-2003, 05:40 AM   #29 (permalink)
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Cue "Proud to Be an American" in 3...2...1...
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Old 05-09-2003, 12:02 PM   #30 (permalink)
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I get your point KillerYoda. In the past I've agreed and supported views you stated. As for the video that contributed to my increased hatred of Saddam; its becoming more apparent it was something one would to have seen.

The email sent to the whitehouse is something that was agreed to by another member from the other forum. I havent seen him or he's using a different name and hasnt come forward. He agreed if no WMD are found he would post that he was mistaken and email President Bush asking for an explanation. What he does really doesnt concern me. What I do does. I was moved by what I saw, if people want to label it as me being hose over by propaganda; fine. No matter how hard I try; I just cant seem to get worried by that. By not making this thread I would have been lying to myself, at this point in my life I not willing to do that. Not to mention I strive to stay true to my word; although I occasionally falter.

The paradox that exsists for someone such as myself; a library full of information on NWO, Chem trails, government cover-ups, illuminati sects, Elders of Zion, . . . etc, are the feelings that I'm dam GLAD Im an American.

As I stated before, if you see something that you feel in your heart and mind that needs to be addressed what are you prepared to do to change it.

Hint: Surfing the net and finding sites to cut and paste tidbits may help vent, but its not going to turn any heads or even change views that people enter with. --- Im almost certain you knew that though
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Old 05-09-2003, 12:45 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Sun, you're a stand-up human being... willing to learn and then decide.

Thanks for the post!
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Old 05-09-2003, 01:17 PM   #32 (permalink)
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All I can say is that if I thought that Bush did this because he gave too shits about the Iraqi people, I'd probably agree with you. Its too bad that you let an emotional response to the horrors of Saddam's regime suddenly validate the Bush administrations actions for you. The Bush Administration did something that has done some good and could do a lot more in the future assuming that the handling of it doesn't result in something worse, but they didn't do it for reasons that would make me change my mind on their approach to international relations.
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Old 05-09-2003, 03:17 PM   #33 (permalink)
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MrSmashy, you may be right, and normally I wouldnt feel this way, but I dont care. When I heard the congress was pissed the President Bush side stepped congress by giving the "clean up contract to someone of his choosing instead of working alongside Congress and viewing multiple bids, I thought "there goes Cheney again with a different corperate name this time" At this point it just doesnt matter to me.

Saddam was far worse than I had interpreted. Thats the big change for me; really seeing, more than reading small bits of history here and there and hearing how bad he was. It didnt sink in. I'm shocked he was allowed to continue as along as he did (by the world over). It doesnt mean much to some unless your the one living it.

I know America cant be the world's policeman, and we have big domestic issues right here, but if this kind of cruelty is happening and no one is doing anything about it. . . . actually Im at a loss of words. Theres some things happening in the world that will be on my mind until they're solved or I die first. I still live my life to the best of my ability, but knowing theres injustice going on affects me.

Are you really in Russia Mr.Smashy? Im not trying to insult with that question, but I know some joke about their location.
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Old 05-09-2003, 03:28 PM   #34 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sun Tzu

Are you really in Russia Mr.Smashy? Im not trying to insult with that question, but I know some joke their location.
No. Its a reference to a comment made by Pat Buchanan about Canada. I think its funny.

Anyways, that's a fair opinion...the problem is that there are just as horrible things going on elsewhere that the US isn't doing anything about. Why? There aren't any other benefits for the US there. While I can support opposition to human right violating regimes, I still think it needs to be internal and part of the growth of civil society towards eventual democracy et al...and that the Bush administration's intervention can lead to more trouble than it will solve in the long run.

Regardless, even though I could potentially support intervention to remove a dictator - with the understanding a quick move to democracy would be impossible since the institutions of American democracy being transplanted to another nation mean nothing without civl society that can't be imposed - that doesn't for me translate into support of what the Bush administration is doing or avoidance of criticisms of the Buish Administration.
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Old 05-10-2003, 01:20 AM   #35 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dragonlich
er... guthmund, how large a percentage of your annual government budget goes to foreign aid? That massive amount of money is *nothing* compared to other expenses...
Less than 1% of the total overall budget goes to foreign aid. A relatively small amount most people say, but in 2003 that less than 1% was $15.7 billion and under the new proposed budget it jumps to $18 billion.

All things considered it is a small part of the total overall budget. That $18 billion, however, could be a sizeable chunk added to the Dept of Educations' allocation of $50-55 billion dollars, but then again, both pale in comparison to the whopping $350-400 billion dollars the DOD is budgeted in the 2004 budget.

I don't know. $18 billion dollars isn't a lot in the grand scheme of things, but it sure could help buy a lot of schoolbooks and classroom equipment.

Oh hell, I guess we could just buy us a really cool plane instead and forget all about it...
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