If ever there was a ideal cruise missile target - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

crewsor · 04-01-2004, 07:25 PM

I wish I could have targeted that site as this was happening. What kind of people behave like this?

seretogis · 04-02-2004, 12:28 AM

The article: Link

Quote:

U.S. promises revenge for Iraq atrocity
American general, Bremer vow to track down killers of 4 contractors in Fallujah; Symptom of 'cancer inside Iraq'; Remains of dead workers are handed over to U.S.

By Colin McMahon
Tribune staff reporter
Originally published April 1, 2004, 10:10 PM EST

BAGHDAD -- A top U.S. military official said Thursday that the Marines would retake Fallujah by "overwhelming" force if necessary, and that U.S. forces would track down the Iraqis who mutilated the bodies of four American civilian contractors in a frenzied celebration broadcast around the world.
Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt also challenged the town's leaders to produce the guerrillas who killed the contractors, decrying Wednesday's ambush and mutilation of the victims as symptoms of "a cancer inside the society of Iraq."

In Washington, Bush administration officials vowed that they would not allow the attack to sway them from their goal of installing a democratic, indigenous government at the end of June. Similar images of bodies being dragged through the streets of Mogadishu led to the withdrawal of U.S. forces from Somalia a decade ago.

"There are certainly areas of Iraq that remain dangerous, but we will not be deterred by these cowardly, hateful acts," said White House spokesman Scott McClellan.

Fallujah itself was quiet Thursday. But an attack outside the city wounded three Marines, and their abandoned Humvee was set afire by joyous Iraqis. Army officials also said a car bombing Wednesday night in the nearby town of Ramadi had killed six Iraqi civilians and wounded four more.

As debate swirled in the United States about the political impact and the media coverage of the events in Fallujah, Iraqi police gathered the remains of the dead Americans and handed them over to U.S. forces. And U.S. military officials defended their decision not to mount an operation to rescue the bodies during Wednesday's rioting, saying it could have made a dangerous situation even worse.

Some Iraqis expressed dismay at the image presented of their country and their people. Two of the burned bodies were strung up from a bridge by the mob.

"This is a bad advertisement for everything we stand for," said Muhammad Khalifa, a spare- parts trader who closed his Fallujah shop during the disturbance in a sign of disgust. "We may hate Americans. We may hate them with all our hearts. But all men are creatures of God."

A team of U.S. officials met with Fallujah's mayor and top clerics Thursday. The officials said the clerics promised to issue a fatwa, or religious edict, at Friday Prayer to condemn the ambush and the grisly aftermath.

"It represented the worst in savage behavior ... neither Islamic, nor Arab, nor related to any of the values of this region," said Samir Shakir Mahmoud, a Sunni businessman from western Iraq and a member of Iraq's Governing Council. "It does not represent me and it does not represent Iraq. It represents the worst that the previous regime created in Iraq."

Paul Bremer, the U.S. administrator in Iraq, told a graduation ceremony for police cadets that the beatings, burnings and hangings of the corpses were "dramatic examples of the ongoing struggle between human dignity and barbarism."

Bremer vowed that the deaths of the Americans, who were working as armed security consultants under a contract with the Pentagon, "will not go unpunished."

Marines staffed checkpoints on key roads leading into Fallujah, about 35 miles west of Baghdad, and were turning back some vehicles. Residents waited for a next move by the Americans.

"We wish that they would try to enter Fallujah so we'd let hell break loose," resident Ahmed al- Dulaimi told the Associated Press.

The man will get his wish, Kimmitt promised. Only the when and how had yet to be decided.

"We are not going to do a pell- mell rush into the city," Kimmitt said. "It will be at a time and a place of our choosing. It will be methodical. It will be precise and it will be overwhelming."

Kimmitt, the deputy director of U.S. military operations in Iraq, urged Iraqi authorities in Fallujah to "come out from behind their desks, tell us who these people are ... and even better, perhaps imprison these people themselves.

"If they were to deliver these people to the criminal justice system, we will come back in and start the rebuilding of Fallujah," the Army general said. "That is their choice. But we will be back in Fallujah. Fallujah will be pacified."

The 1st Marine Expeditionary Force took over jurisdiction of Fallujah and surrounding Al Anbar province last month, replacing the 82nd Airborne Division. Residents say the Marines have been highly visible and assertive in their patrols, and they attribute an increase in clashes in the region to the more aggressive Marine posture.

A senior military official suggested it was the guerrillas who had been testing the troops upon their arrival. He rejected the idea that the heart of Fallujah had been abandoned "to some sort of festering rot" under the airborne troops. And he said the Marines were as interested as any other U.S. forces in the ultimate goal of rebuilding Iraq.

Kimmitt addressed the question of why Iraqi police and the U.S. Marines decided not to intervene for hours Wednesday as the mob danced in joy at the deaths of the Americans.

He said the troops would have arrived on the scene too late to save any lives. They were con cerned about ambushes or civilians being used as human shields. And they decided that an "attack into the city could have taken a bad situation and made it even worse."

Lt. Eric Knapp, a spokesman for the 1st Marine Division, said: "We are not going to over-react because the enemy is trying to bait us."

Knapp said that as of Thursday evening the Marines had received the remains of three of the four dead Americans.

Kimmitt dismissed the concern that the guerrillas and townspeople would be left with the impression that the Ameri cans were scared of Fallujah or tolerant of violence.

"Ask them after the Americans have come back in," the general said.

The New York Times News Service contributed to this article.

irateplatypus · 04-02-2004, 12:36 AM

speculation on the societal/religious/rationality differences that separate our society from those involved with this will undoubtedly go on.

for now, i think it's safe to say that there are people out there whose conception of the world and human life is very different from the one i hold.

there isn't a person on this earth i would do this to. if i were to find hitler, osama bin laden, stalin and pal pot in my country... doing this wouldn't even cross my mind. it's just hard to wrap my mind around people celebrating the cold-blooded murder of four security guards sent to monitor shipments of free food given to their own people, and then removing all dignity from their victims.

man...

Strange Famous · 04-02-2004, 01:09 AM

Because lynchings have never occured in America...

Because people have never been tortured to death in America...

Because the Iraqi people should be so glad America occupies their land, and it is beyond belief to show such ingratitude...

Why dont you save some outrage for all of the Iraqi's killed by American troops too?

seretogis · 04-02-2004, 01:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Strange Famous
Because lynchings have never occured in America...

Because people have never been tortured to death in America...

Because the Iraqi people should be so glad America occupies their land, and it is beyond belief to show such ingratitude...

Why dont you save some outrage for all of the Iraqi's killed by American troops too?

SF is right, our troops just got what they deserved. The Iraqi people are completely justified in brutally mutilating the corpses of soldiers that they kill. In fact, we should be grateful that they think enough of us to take the trouble. How dare anyone state otherwise.

Try as you might, there is no justification or excuse for something like this.

Lebell · 04-02-2004, 01:27 AM

While not out of hand yet, I see the potential.

One thread has been locked tonight, please don't make it another.

I will agree that two wrongs don't make a right, even if the circumstances were similiar, which in this case, they aren't.

Strange Famous · 04-02-2004, 01:27 AM

Murder is murder... the point is the Iraqi mob wouldnt have killed any American's if you hadnt occupied their country, bombed their infrastructure into the middle ages, and killed 1000's of civilians.

The death of 4 people is easier to be outraged about than the death of 1000's, because its easier to conceive of I guess.

It doesnt make me happy to see anyone killed, or to see people tear apart the corpses of the dead in a rage, but this is the situation America (and the UK) has created... you cannot attack and beat and torment a people and forever expect them to be docile and weak.

I am sure the Americans will carry out many murders to avenge these deaths, the general interviewed in the linked article basically promised that... so this will just create more loss of life, maybe some of the people the Americans kill will be guilty, some will surely be innocent. War = death, and ugly death, the people of Iraq are being ground into nothing - you bomb their infrastructure and leave them half starving them bring them some food and expect them to thank you?

Honestly, I dont feel any happiness to see American soldiers and mercenaries killed - the death of every casualty of war saddens me... but when you invade a country, when you are a part of an occupying force, enforcing your will on Iraq by violence... you have to expect people will fight back.

I dont think any sane person enjoys this sort of spectacle, whether it is Mussilini hung up froma meat hook, or American mercanaries hanged from a bridge, but as long as the war goes on this wont stop... there will always be patriotic and religious Iraqi's that will resist the pagan American forces who are stealing their country from them.

smooth · 04-02-2004, 01:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Strange Famous
I am sure the Americans will carry out many murders to avenge these deaths, the general interviewed in the linked article basically promised that...

That's the part that struck me. He attributes these actions to beliefs like we are tolerant of violence and then threatens violence to illustrate how intolerant we are of it!

crewsor · 04-02-2004, 04:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Strange Famous
Murder is murder... the point is the Iraqi mob wouldnt have killed any American's if you hadnt occupied their country, bombed their infrastructure into the middle ages, and killed 1000's of civilians.

The death of 4 people is easier to be outraged about than the death of 1000's, because its easier to conceive of I guess.

It doesnt make me happy to see anyone killed, or to see people tear apart the corpses of the dead in a rage, but this is the situation America (and the UK) has created... you cannot attack and beat and torment a people and forever expect them to be docile and weak.

I am sure the Americans will carry out many murders to avenge these deaths, the general interviewed in the linked article basically promised that... so this will just create more loss of life, maybe some of the people the Americans kill will be guilty, some will surely be innocent. War = death, and ugly death, the people of Iraq are being ground into nothing - you bomb their infrastructure and leave them half starving them bring them some food and expect them to thank you?

Honestly, I dont feel any happiness to see American soldiers and mercenaries killed - the death of every casualty of war saddens me... but when you invade a country, when you are a part of an occupying force, enforcing your will on Iraq by violence... you have to expect people will fight back.

I dont think any sane person enjoys this sort of spectacle, whether it is Mussilini hung up froma meat hook, or American mercanaries hanged from a bridge, but as long as the war goes on this wont stop... there will always be patriotic and religious Iraqi's that will resist the pagan American forces who are stealing their country from them.

Man, you are out there. Those soldiers you refer to are risking their lives every day over there trying to help these same people. For you to imply that it is a savage occupation where troops are there solely to put down the Iraqi people is ludicrous. There is no justification for a scene like this. No way, no how.

123dsa · 04-02-2004, 06:15 AM

FYI SF, the four men killed were NOT soldiers, but civilians. I agree with the original poster-let's blown the town up.

LSD

Superbelt · 04-02-2004, 06:57 AM

Actually they weren't just civilians. They were mercenaries. 1000 dollar a day mercenaries whose company claim they were protecting a food caravan.

Food isn't that valuable, and there is no hunger problem in Iraq. Something is fishy.

tecoyah · 04-02-2004, 07:00 AM

War is hell...plain and simple. But this sort of thing pisses me off to the depths of my soul.
Yeah War is hell.....so lets send those bastards there for a while.
Perhaps the seventh level of hell will do.

Daval · 04-02-2004, 07:02 AM

I was listening to a news report this morning how in the town where this outrageous act occured there is a very mixxed feeling.

Partially a feeling of pride over this little victory over the 4 security advisors, and also extreme embarassment over the heinous acts to the corpses of these dead Americans.

In the Muslim faith it is apparently a MASSIVE no-no to show disrespect to a corpse and many are troubled because of this.

Superbelt · 04-02-2004, 07:06 AM

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story...184313,00.html
The security firm "declines to give further details" other than that they were protecting a food convoy in an area where food isn't a problem.

filtherton · 04-02-2004, 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by 123dsa
FYI SF, the four men killed were NOT soldiers, but civilians. I agree with the original poster-let's blown the town up.

LSD

Yeah, if anyone can show these ingrates how to kill "civilians" it's america. Once we do blow this town up, all of the violence over there will undoubtedly stop.

tecoyah · 04-02-2004, 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by 123dsa
FYI SF, the four men killed were NOT soldiers, but civilians. I agree with the original poster-let's blown the town up.

LSD

They were part of a security force, which is the second largest armed force in Iraq, after coalition forces. The fact they were killed is , unfortunately, a part of warfare. The issue is the WAY they were killed, and the actions of the mob afterward.
This is a very bad situation, and will likely get much worse. The next move by our leadership will be very telling, and could very well change the nature of our occupation in Iraq, for better, or worse.

OFKU0 · 04-02-2004, 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by irateplatypus
speculation on the societal/religious/rationality differences that separate our society from those involved with this will undoubtedly go on.

Very true and if George Bush thinks he is going to change the mid eastern cultural identity which has been in existence from the beginning of recorded time to what he thinks it should be, these types of instances will continue.

I certainly don't condone the actions of these people and I believe this is a very small minority who take pride and celebrate this unfortunate event.

Can I understand why some Iraqi's feel this way? Yes. Is it right? That I can't answer because it doesn't directly involve me or my way of life.

I believe the American's are trying to help the Iraqi's to have a better life. I just think that some Iraqi's don't want to be told how to live their life, especially from a country that is of polar opposites, culturally and societally speaking.

irateplatypus · 04-02-2004, 10:44 AM

i love it how security guards protecting food shipments become mercenaries.

better yet... when a company that has had 4 employees brutally murdered and had their bodies displayed on TV screens around the world raises suspicion about itself when it declines to comment a day after the events took place.

Superbelt · 04-02-2004, 11:45 AM

Ok, first, they are Mercenaries, by definition.

They were specifically hired to assist in the overthrowing a Government. These firms have been active in Iraq, in combat since the war started.

Being a merc is not always a knock. That's just the fact of the matter. They are not security guards. Security guards do not make $1000 a day or more.

You don't pay 4000 dollars for men so that they can escort a food supply that has not been endangered and is not a crucial commodity. You can pay 4 Iraqi's 50 dollars a day to do something like that. The food isn't worth that much.

Because that official story falls through under scrutiny the company declining to elaborate on their job that day comes under suspicion.

This is the first time in this whole campaign that americans were so brutally violated after death. It is specifically forbidden in the Islamic faith to desecrate a body after it is dead, even a dog.
It seems to me that it is at least possible that something extreme may have happened that day that precipitated the situation we now see.

I see people everywhere right now jumping down this entire town's throats. And, though I believe the ones who participated deserve some retribution it should be pointed out that the americans may have played a significant part in what happened and the retaliation that will follow, upon the whole city, may not be justified.

onetime2 · 04-02-2004, 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Superbelt

It seems to me that it is at least possible that something extreme may have happened that day that precipitated the situation we now see.

It's just as likely that the members of this mob were insurgents staging this event to draw international attention and get people believing that all the "regular Iraqis" are fed up with the "occupation".

irateplatypus · 04-02-2004, 12:14 PM

Newsflash: they aren't there to assist in the overthrowing of a government, the government that was there was thrown over long ago.

also, you can't define someone's job by how much money they are making. if security guards are necessary (and it appears that they are), i guarantee you it would take more money than they are making to get me to volunteer for the job. sure, a mall-cop doesn't make that much... but a mall-cop isn't roughing it on the other side of the world; enduring extreme weather, hostile locals, and the occassional torture and dismemberment orgy.

sure, it's possible that there is something else afoot here... but you have nothing but speculation and suspicion to support those theories. neither you or i are privy to the situation over there in a first-hand sense. who are we to decide from our computer desks what kind of security is needed, or at what price a caravan of food must be defended?

smooth · 04-02-2004, 12:35 PM

What is your definition of mercenary? Isn't it a private citizen who agrees to fight in another country for money?

Quote:

But at the top the pay scale are American and British security workers who are former Navy SEALs, Green Berets, Marines, Special Operations soldiers, CIA workers, British Special Air Services members and British Royal Marines. Many have worked with intelligence units in their former services and continue to have access to information unavailable to civilians.

Blackwater, for example, was founded by former Navy SEAL Gary Jackson and includes many former commandos in its top ranks. A company spokesman said 70% of its trainees come from the military, mainly from commando units.

The firm's business has been booming since the 2001 attacks on New York and the Pentagon. Two years ago, it signed a $35.7-million contract with the Pentagon to train more than 10,000 soldiers in force protection at the firm's 6,000-acre training range in Moyock, N.C.

Government staffers who have trained there include Special Operations units from nearby Ft. Bragg, the U.S. Coast Guard, harbor security services and the Federal Aviation Administration.

Other top firms operating in Iraq include Chicago-based Triple Canopy Inc.; San Francisco-based Steele Foundation; New York-based Kroll Inc.; El Segundo-based DynCorp; and the British firm Control Risk Group.

A primary appeal to security workers is the money. The best paid of the private security staffers — the most experienced and elite former soldiers — earn as much as $20,000 a month, security experts in Iraq say.

--http://www.latimes.com/la-fg-security2apr02,1,1929057.story

edit: I couldn't find the Times article about lower troop moral due to outsourcing the military. The point it was drawing is that our professional troops are getting paid less than these private ones, foreign nations are getting pissed because we are hiring their cops and military, and this is continuing the trend of privitizing our military.

I was able to find this story that mirrors the one I read in the Times a few weeks back:

Quote:

The US is hiring mercenaries in Chile to replace its soldiers on security duty in Iraq.

A Pentagon contractor has begun recruiting former commandos, other soldiers and seamen, paying them up to $US4000 ($A5300) a month to guard oil wells against attack by insurgents.

Last month Blackwater USA flew a first group of about 60 former commandos, many of whom had trained under the military government of Augusto Pinochet, from Santiago to a 970-hectare training camp in North Carolina.

From there they would be taken to Iraq, where they were expected to stay between six months and a year, the president of Blackwater USA, Gary Jackson, said. "We scour the ends of the earth to find professionals - the Chilean commandos are very, very professional and they fit within the Blackwater system."

Chile was the only Latin American country where Mr Jackson's firm had hired commandos for Iraq.

The privatisation of security in Iraq is growing as the US seeks to reduce its commitment of troops. At the end of last year there were 10,000 hired security personnel in Iraq.

[...]

Chilean Defence Minister Michelle Bachelet ordered an investigation into whether paramilitary training by Blackwater violated Chilean laws on the use of weapons by private citizens. She asked for its recruiting effort to be investigated after it was alleged that people on active duty were involved.

Many soldiers are said to be leaving the army to join the private companies.

Mr Jackson said that similar issues were bedevilling the US forces. The private sector paid experienced special forces personnel far more than the armed services.

"The US military has the same problems," he said.

"If they are going to outsource tasks that were once held by active-duty military and are now using private contractors, those guys (on active duty) are looking and asking, 'Where is the money?"'

The number of hired soldiers in Iraq is estimated to be in the thousands.

Squads of Bosnians, Filipinos and Americans with special forces experience have been hired for tasks ranging from airport security to protecting Paul Bremer, the head of the Coalition Provisional Authority.

Their salaries can be as high as $US1000 a day, the news agency AFP recently reported. Erwin, a 28-year-old former US army sergeant working in Iraq, told AFP: "This place is a goldmine. All you need is five years in the military and you come here and make a good bundle."

[...]

John Rivas, 27, a former Chilean marine, said the work in Iraq would provide a "very good income" that would allow him to support his family.

"I don't feel like a mercenary," he said

--http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/03/05/1078464637030.html

seretogis · 04-02-2004, 02:40 PM

Why is it even an issue of what word you use to describe the four people whose corpses were mutilated and put on display? No one -- soldier, civilian, or ex-dictator -- deserves that. It's abhorrent and inhuman, and I really have to question why any of you would seek to justify it.

smooth · 04-02-2004, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by seretogis
Why is it even an issue of what word you use to describe the four people whose corpses were mutilated and put on display? No one -- soldier, civilian, or ex-dictator -- deserves that. It's abhorrent and inhuman, and I really have to question why any of you would seek to justify it.

Still up to your old tricks, I see.

What exactly is your question? Please try to phrase it without putting words in my mouth.

No one I've seen has justified what happened. What we responded to, however, was the idea that this was somehow worse because civilians were targeted. We pointed out that the victims were not civilians, but rather people whose reason for being in Iraq was for a paycheck--not altruism. That's what mercenaries do--they fight for money, not ideology or defense. I don't justify what happened, but by the same token I don't particularly give a shit that it did--the danger of this type of thing happening is why they are being paid so much. Wasn't it people in support of this war arguing that criticism of the atrocities are irrelevent because that's the nature of war? Well, now why is it different when the atrocities happen to the "good guys?" I think that's bullshit and I also think it's buillshit that one of the military commanders is threatening a hellstorm on an innocent village because of the actions of a few people like these fucking four people are somehow worth more than the villagers who didn't do jack shit and are abhorred by what happened.

crewsor · 04-02-2004, 03:29 PM

I have a hunch that the issue with a lot of people is not the behavior of the people who committed these atrocities, but that the evil Americans are only getting what they deserve. No matter how atrocious the act, the fault ultimately lies with the U.S.A.

So a bunch of barbarians mutilated some corpses, it must have been well deserved or it wouldn’t have happened. The people who were ambushed, shot, burnt beyond recognition and hacked up, before being hung on public display surely were “mercenaries” so it is justified. No way were these people just protecting a food shipment, meant for the very people who attacked them. Surely something much more sinister must have been going on.

Maybe it is what it is. A bunch of barbarians attacked a group of people whom they believed had no right to be on their land. People who if armed, for some reason didn’t return fire. Then they mutilated their corpses and hung them from a bridge. Then they danced for joy and gloated over their great achievement.

And it sickens me that there are people who consider this Americas just reward for attempting to improve the lot of another people.

crewsor · 04-02-2004, 03:33 PM

Quote:

[i]Originally posted by smooth I think that's bullshit and I also think it's buillshit that one of the military commanders is threatening a hellstorm on an innocent village because of the actions of a few people like these fucking four people are somehow worth more than the villagers who didn't do jack shit and are abhorred by what happened. [/B]

I think what he threatened was that the people responsible would be killed or captured. I saw no threats of destroying the entire village. But surely thats what the evil empire will do.

smooth · 04-02-2004, 03:37 PM

Well now that you've put it that way, I've changed my mind.

I now think that if someone came to my hometown, uninvited, to "improve the lot" of my family, but routinely ransacked my house looking for weapons and occasionally shot my siblings and friends, I'd cut those people into little pieces and toss them in a stew. I'd send some pieces to their families and make it real fucking clear that I don't want that type of help. I didn't ask for it and I'm not liking it. And I wouldn't feel the least bit of guilt about what I did.

The soldiers, mercs, and civs over there aren't mourning the children they've killed, they're just collecting blood money. So now I think you're right. I think that this was deserved on some level. Thanks for convincing me, because before I was just trying to understand how someone could do this. Now I not only understand, I think I'd probably do the same thing.

smooth · 04-02-2004, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by crewsor
I think what he threatened was that the people responsible would be killed or captured. I saw no threats of destroying the entire village. But surely thats what the evil empire will do.

Damn strait it will. That's what it's been doing so far.

BTW, what's the first sentence of the story say?

Quote:

A top U.S. military official said Thursday that the Marines would retake Fallujah by "overwhelming" force if necessary,

Yeah, that's what I thought.

crewsor · 04-02-2004, 03:44 PM

Quote:

[i]Originally posted by smooth Now I not only understand, I think I'd probably do the same thing. [/B]

Reading your posts I don't doubt that a bit.
Sorry, but I was under the impression that some Iraqis were better off than they were a year ago and were actually happy a brutal dictator had been removed. But surely thats just propaganda, and all of them have actually been tortured and ravaged by the brutal child killing Americans.

smooth · 04-02-2004, 03:56 PM

I was mainly interested to see how far you or seretogis would take your ridiculous accusations.

Once you two stepped in, the discussion took a dive. I'll come back in a week to see if it's recovered. Maybe you'll take a break and revisit this thread when you are less prone to start accusing fellow Americans of hating their country, shoving nasty statements in their mouths that they never said or would say ("evil," "child killing," ? fucking please spare me the theatrics), and just in general not adding much to the discussion.

We were providing context for how these things don't happen in a vacuum, but that doesn't fit into your dichotomous good vs. evil paradigm. Thumbs up, baby, have fun castigating fellow citizens in persuit of your value of freedom and helping others. The altruism flowing from your eyes unfortunately prevents you from seeing what the people you claim to be helping actually want--you to leave them the fuck alone.

It's like when little johnny is splattering brownie batter all over the kitchen and his mommy has to say," mommy really appreciates your help in making the brownies, but it might help more if you played with your Legos over there..."

crewsor · 04-02-2004, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by smooth
Well now that you've put it that way, I've changed my mind.

I now think that if someone came to my hometown, uninvited, to "improve the lot" of my family, but routinely ransacked my house looking for weapons and occasionally shot my siblings and friends, I'd cut those people into little pieces and toss them in a stew. I'd send some pieces to their families and make it real fucking clear that I don't want that type of help. I didn't ask for it and I'm not liking it. And I wouldn't feel the least bit of guilt about what I did.

The soldiers, mercs, and civs over there aren't mourning the children they've killed, they're just collecting blood money. So now I think you're right. I think that this was deserved on some level. Thanks for convincing me, because before I was just trying to understand how someone could do this. Now I not only understand, I think I'd probably do the same thing.

Yeah, I can see that I shoved these nasty statements right into your mouth. You had absolutely nothing to do with it.

smooth · 04-02-2004, 04:45 PM

Man, I've got to clear this up before leaving this thread to the dogs, cuz you are totally out of control.

You started this thread by asking what kind of people do this sort of thing.

Me, and a few others, replied that someone who looks out his or her window and sees foreigners invading one's hometown are going to react violently and, to some people, irrationally.

The response from both you and seretogis was to accuse me of being anti-american, to think of my nation as "evil" and as somehow justifying these actions.

Why the fuck did you even ask the question? You didn't want to know what people think could be the reason for these actions, you either wanted someone to stroke you off and support your preconception that these are unworthy barbarians who deserved to be slaughtered as fast as possible (send a cruise missile into the group of people, right?) or you wanted to castigate some fellow citizens who love the country they grew up in too.

You've been doing this shit for over two years now. So rather than continue beating my head against the wall, I conceded that you've got me--I'm an American hating citizen who just can't wait to cut people up and throw them in my stew. You can't fucking recognize how retarded you sound to me when you reply that you don't doubt I would actually do that?!

Let me just point out your very basic absence of comprehension:

1) you pointed out that you didn't read anything that would lead you to believe the commander was going to seek retribution on the whole twon

In the very first sentence of the story you quoted, the commander stated that they were going to show the Iraqi's just how serious they were about this with "overwhelming force."

2) you seem to think the Iraqi people are happy we are liberating them

once again, in the first line of the story you posted, the commander states that they are going to "retake" the city. That means they already took it, and lost it! The US military, arguably the most powerful, best equipped, and well-trained military in the history of civilization, didn't lose a city to a rag-tag group of barbarians. They lost it because the people don't want them there!

3) You claim that I think my country is evil and child killers

I didn't say that shit. First of all, I don't walk around talking about good vs. evil. I left that crap in the playground with my Star Wars figures. I've got an adult perspective on human behavior now that doesn't relegate motivation to the great pie in the sky--maybe you'll join me someday.

Secondly, bombs and bullets have killed children. That's a fact that weighs heavily on the families of those affected. I didn't state that americans are baby-killers, though, or that soldiers are baby-killers by definition. And if you had actually bothered to read through my entire post, you would have seen that I was opposed to hiring people from chile and other foreign nations to do some dirty war. So if I think those mercs are working for blood money, how the fuck do you get off accusing me of saying anything negative about our brave soldiers who have to die and kill for people who believe like you?

Tophat665 · 04-02-2004, 05:24 PM

Now, I admit I haven't read all of the previous posts, but from what I did read, it seems to me like this is mostly an argument on whether or not we should ever have gone, and, having done so, whether we should still be there.

This is entirely beside the point. We are there. Y'all know how I feel about that. In fact, there is only one thing that I can think of that I agree with Dubya on is this - Iraq is integral to the war on terror. Change that "is" to a "was" and we disagree again (and I don't think he knows what the word integral mean or how to say it). But the fact remains, we are there and, like it or not, it is part of the war on terror.

So that brings us round to two things: What to do about it and how to stop it from happening again.

I think even the most ardent peacenik would agree that we are stuck in Iraq. It's not so much a matter of how to get us out right now as how to get us out in the minimum amount of time with the smallest loss of life on both sides as possible, and in such a way that the bloodthirsty bastards who dragged us over there to begin with don't have an easy excuse to do it all again.

My gut instinct is to give everyone in Faluja 15 minutes to get out of town, then burn and bulldoze the thing. Or maybe tattoo a red hand on the forehead of every inhabitant over the age of 11. This is, of course, no kind of solution (though I have to wonder if something severe, drastic, and thoroughly barbaric wouldn't in this day and age, shock people so much that they what? Surrender? Accept? Live in fear?)

So 1) We're there, 2) It is now a legitimate battlefield, 3) and we can't leave any time soon.

What now?

crewsor · 04-02-2004, 05:32 PM

Sounds to me like you may have some anger control issues, not to mention memory lapses. I put no words into your mouth. Anyone who reads your posts can see your disdain for our " brave soldiers".

A qoute or two may be in order.

smooth says

"I now think that if someone came to my hometown, uninvited, to "improve the lot" of my family, but routinely ransacked my house looking for weapons and occasionally shot my siblings and friends, I'd cut those people into little pieces and toss them in a stew.to their families and make it real fucking clear that I don't want that type of help. I didn't ask for it and I'm not liking it. And I wouldn't feel the least bit of guilt about what I did."

You said it and now you say I sound retarded for saying I believe you. Sheesh.

"The soldiers, mercs, and civs over there aren't mourning the children they've killed, they're just collecting blood money."

Yes, I can see your respect for our soldiers.

"So now I think you're right. I think that this was deserved on some level. Thanks for convincing me, because before I was just trying to understand how someone could do this. Now I not only understand, I think I'd probably do the same thing."

Here you say you believe those people got what they deserved.

Smooth says, in relation tothe " brave soldiers" retribution on the entire town.

"Damn strait it will. That's what it's been doing so far."

So, you will have to excuse me if I take you at your word and interpret your statements for what they appear to be.
But then again, it's me thats out of control. I'm sure you're just fine.

filtherton · 04-02-2004, 06:02 PM

I agree with smooth.

He's a smoooooth operator!

Wasn't the tilted right just recently pewling about how the left doesn't listen to reason?

No one on this post made any kind of endorsement of this brutality until after seretogis showed up with his fake outrage posturing. Even then, the only endorsement was more to prove a point.

Allow me to paraphrase the arguments of one crewsor and one seretogis in a fashion similar to the way that they have paraphrased the arguments of others on this thread:
Americans, wherever they are, shit sunshine. We are incapable of ever making any kind of political or international mistake. Foreigners are worth less then americans. When atrocities happen to foreigners it is simply one of the unpleasant things about war. When atrocities happen to americans, or anyone being paid by americans, such things are disgusting, malicious and should be swiftly punished by killing every last man woman and child in the town where it happened. That will send a clear message that americans don't mess around when it comes to punishing upstart rapscallions. Also, anyone who has the audacity to question america's foreign policy is obviously a coward and a traitor waiting for the opportune moment to sink his poison fangs into the very throat of the democracy that evey real american is willing to give their life for. Obviously, the pentagon would never decieve us in any way so we must take everything they say as the gospel that it is.

In summary, when you have no other recourse, attack a broad caricature of your opponent's argument rather than anything directly related to what he/she said. Then sit back and watch the straw fly.

Well Done!! Encore Gentlemen!!

crewsor · 04-02-2004, 06:16 PM

You needn't state you agree with smooth filtherton. I can see that by your sig. But thanks anyway.

filtherton · 04-02-2004, 06:32 PM

I hope you didn't use that as an excuse to not read my post.

btw. Does that mean that you think elder bush and mr. snowcroft agree with smooth too? They said it first.

smooth · 04-02-2004, 06:34 PM

ah shit, I shouldn't have said you sounded like a retard for believing what I wrote.

My bad and apologies for jumping your shit over that portion.

I should have dropped a sarcasm tag or something to let you know I was just feeding your caricature of me to illustrate how ludicrous it was.

I didn't mean you were out of control, I just couldn't think of anything else at the time that wouldn't get me banned.

I still stand by my contention that you don't appear to be genuinely interested in the "why" this occurred from the Iraqi's perspective, or how normal people can revert to these atrocious acts even if they aren't barbarians due to barbaric cirucmstances.

p.s., I guess my "Junkie" status is just going to have to excuse me from my lie and spy of the thread!

crewsor · 04-02-2004, 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by filtherton
I hope you didn't use that as an excuse to not read my post.

btw. Does that mean that you think elder bush and mr. snowcroft agree with smooth too? They said it first.

No, I read your post.
When Bush Sr. said it, if he did. It was a different time, different circumstance.

I'm not a big fan of either Bush, Jr. or Sr. That war hits very close to home for me.

But the facts are, we are over there now. Americans and Iraqis alike face loss of life.
Yeah I know, war is hell. But war is one thing, barbarism is another. If they had ambushed those people and left it at that, I could comprehend that as casualties of war. Its happening every day and its terrible.
But the act of mutilating and desecrating corpses crosses any lines of decency.
The thing that gets me is I don't understand people who seem to justify that kind of behavior as understandable, given the circumstances. I just don't accept that. But I guess thats just me.

Oh, and btw. I didn't paraphrase. I used direct quotes.

filtherton · 04-02-2004, 07:20 PM

Quote:

I think what he threatened was that the people responsible would be killed or captured. I saw no threats of destroying the entire village. But surely thats what the evil empire will do.

Quote:

But surely thats just propaganda, and all of them have actually been tortured and ravaged by the brutal child killing Americans.

Quote:

And it sickens me that there are people who consider this Americas just reward for attempting to improve the lot of another people.

Quote:

So a bunch of barbarians mutilated some corpses, it must have been well deserved or it wouldn’t have happened. The people who were ambushed, shot, burnt beyond recognition and hacked up, before being hung on public display surely were “mercenaries” so it is justified. No way were these people just protecting a food shipment, meant for the very people who attacked them. Surely something much more sinister must have been going on.

Direct quotes of your implication/paraphrasation(if that is, indeed, a word).

Again, nobody is trying to paint this as less of an atrocity than it obviously is.

04-01-2004, 07:25 PM	#1 (permalink)
crewsor Women want me. Men fear me. Location: Maryland,USA	If ever there was a ideal cruise missile target I wish I could have targeted that site as this was happening. What kind of people behave like this? U.S. promises revenge for Iraq atrocity __________________ We all have wings, some of us just don't know why.

04-02-2004, 12:36 AM	#3 (permalink)
irateplatypus can't help but laugh Location: dar al-harb	speculation on the societal/religious/rationality differences that separate our society from those involved with this will undoubtedly go on. for now, i think it's safe to say that there are people out there whose conception of the world and human life is very different from the one i hold. there isn't a person on this earth i would do this to. if i were to find hitler, osama bin laden, stalin and pal pot in my country... doing this wouldn't even cross my mind. it's just hard to wrap my mind around people celebrating the cold-blooded murder of four security guards sent to monitor shipments of free food given to their own people, and then removing all dignity from their victims. man... __________________ If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves. ~ Winston Churchill

04-02-2004, 01:09 AM	#4 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	Because lynchings have never occured in America... Because people have never been tortured to death in America... Because the Iraqi people should be so glad America occupies their land, and it is beyond belief to show such ingratitude... Why dont you save some outrage for all of the Iraqi's killed by American troops too? __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas

04-02-2004, 01:27 AM	#6 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	While not out of hand yet, I see the potential. One thread has been locked tonight, please don't make it another. I will agree that two wrongs don't make a right, even if the circumstances were similiar, which in this case, they aren't. __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate!

04-02-2004, 01:27 AM	#7 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	Murder is murder... the point is the Iraqi mob wouldnt have killed any American's if you hadnt occupied their country, bombed their infrastructure into the middle ages, and killed 1000's of civilians. The death of 4 people is easier to be outraged about than the death of 1000's, because its easier to conceive of I guess. It doesnt make me happy to see anyone killed, or to see people tear apart the corpses of the dead in a rage, but this is the situation America (and the UK) has created... you cannot attack and beat and torment a people and forever expect them to be docile and weak. I am sure the Americans will carry out many murders to avenge these deaths, the general interviewed in the linked article basically promised that... so this will just create more loss of life, maybe some of the people the Americans kill will be guilty, some will surely be innocent. War = death, and ugly death, the people of Iraq are being ground into nothing - you bomb their infrastructure and leave them half starving them bring them some food and expect them to thank you? Honestly, I dont feel any happiness to see American soldiers and mercenaries killed - the death of every casualty of war saddens me... but when you invade a country, when you are a part of an occupying force, enforcing your will on Iraq by violence... you have to expect people will fight back. I dont think any sane person enjoys this sort of spectacle, whether it is Mussilini hung up froma meat hook, or American mercanaries hanged from a bridge, but as long as the war goes on this wont stop... there will always be patriotic and religious Iraqi's that will resist the pagan American forces who are stealing their country from them. __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas

04-02-2004, 06:15 AM	#10 (permalink)
123dsa Crazy Location: KY	FYI SF, the four men killed were NOT soldiers, but civilians. I agree with the original poster-let's blown the town up. LSD

04-02-2004, 06:57 AM	#11 (permalink)
Superbelt This vexes me. I am terribly vexed. Location: Grantville, Pa	Actually they weren't just civilians. They were mercenaries. 1000 dollar a day mercenaries whose company claim they were protecting a food caravan. Food isn't that valuable, and there is no hunger problem in Iraq. Something is fishy.

04-02-2004, 07:00 AM	#12 (permalink)
tecoyah Illusionary	War is hell...plain and simple. But this sort of thing pisses me off to the depths of my soul. Yeah War is hell.....so lets send those bastards there for a while. Perhaps the seventh level of hell will do. __________________ Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

04-02-2004, 07:02 AM	#13 (permalink)
Daval Junkie Location: The True North Strong and Free!	I was listening to a news report this morning how in the town where this outrageous act occured there is a very mixxed feeling. Partially a feeling of pride over this little victory over the 4 security advisors, and also extreme embarassment over the heinous acts to the corpses of these dead Americans. In the Muslim faith it is apparently a MASSIVE no-no to show disrespect to a corpse and many are troubled because of this. __________________ "It is impossible to obtain a conviction for sodomy from an English jury. Half of them don't believe that it can physically be done, and the other half are doing it." Winston Churchill

04-02-2004, 07:06 AM	#14 (permalink)
Superbelt This vexes me. I am terribly vexed. Location: Grantville, Pa	http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story...184313,00.html The security firm "declines to give further details" other than that they were protecting a food convoy in an area where food isn't a problem.

04-02-2004, 10:44 AM	#18 (permalink)
irateplatypus can't help but laugh Location: dar al-harb	i love it how security guards protecting food shipments become mercenaries. better yet... when a company that has had 4 employees brutally murdered and had their bodies displayed on TV screens around the world raises suspicion about itself when it declines to comment a day after the events took place. __________________ If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves. ~ Winston Churchill

04-02-2004, 11:45 AM	#19 (permalink)
Superbelt This vexes me. I am terribly vexed. Location: Grantville, Pa	Ok, first, they are Mercenaries, by definition. They were specifically hired to assist in the overthrowing a Government. These firms have been active in Iraq, in combat since the war started. Being a merc is not always a knock. That's just the fact of the matter. They are not security guards. Security guards do not make $1000 a day or more. You don't pay 4000 dollars for men so that they can escort a food supply that has not been endangered and is not a crucial commodity. You can pay 4 Iraqi's 50 dollars a day to do something like that. The food isn't worth that much. Because that official story falls through under scrutiny the company declining to elaborate on their job that day comes under suspicion. This is the first time in this whole campaign that americans were so brutally violated after death. It is specifically forbidden in the Islamic faith to desecrate a body after it is dead, even a dog. It seems to me that it is at least possible that something extreme may have happened that day that precipitated the situation we now see. I see people everywhere right now jumping down this entire town's throats. And, though I believe the ones who participated deserve some retribution it should be pointed out that the americans may have played a significant part in what happened and the retaliation that will follow, upon the whole city, may not be justified.

04-02-2004, 12:14 PM	#21 (permalink)
irateplatypus can't help but laugh Location: dar al-harb	Newsflash: they aren't there to assist in the overthrowing of a government, the government that was there was thrown over long ago. also, you can't define someone's job by how much money they are making. if security guards are necessary (and it appears that they are), i guarantee you it would take more money than they are making to get me to volunteer for the job. sure, a mall-cop doesn't make that much... but a mall-cop isn't roughing it on the other side of the world; enduring extreme weather, hostile locals, and the occassional torture and dismemberment orgy. sure, it's possible that there is something else afoot here... but you have nothing but speculation and suspicion to support those theories. neither you or i are privy to the situation over there in a first-hand sense. who are we to decide from our computer desks what kind of security is needed, or at what price a caravan of food must be defended? __________________ If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves. ~ Winston Churchill

04-02-2004, 02:40 PM	#23 (permalink)
seretogis Huggles, sir? Location: Seattle	Why is it even an issue of what word you use to describe the four people whose corpses were mutilated and put on display? No one -- soldier, civilian, or ex-dictator -- deserves that. It's abhorrent and inhuman, and I really have to question why any of you would seek to justify it. __________________ seretogis - sieg heil perfect little dream the kind that hurts the most, forgot how it feels well almost no one to blame always the same, open my eyes wake up in flames

04-02-2004, 03:29 PM	#25 (permalink)
crewsor Women want me. Men fear me. Location: Maryland,USA	I have a hunch that the issue with a lot of people is not the behavior of the people who committed these atrocities, but that the evil Americans are only getting what they deserve. No matter how atrocious the act, the fault ultimately lies with the U.S.A. So a bunch of barbarians mutilated some corpses, it must have been well deserved or it wouldn’t have happened. The people who were ambushed, shot, burnt beyond recognition and hacked up, before being hung on public display surely were “mercenaries” so it is justified. No way were these people just protecting a food shipment, meant for the very people who attacked them. Surely something much more sinister must have been going on. Maybe it is what it is. A bunch of barbarians attacked a group of people whom they believed had no right to be on their land. People who if armed, for some reason didn’t return fire. Then they mutilated their corpses and hung them from a bridge. Then they danced for joy and gloated over their great achievement. And it sickens me that there are people who consider this Americas just reward for attempting to improve the lot of another people. __________________ We all have wings, some of us just don't know why.

04-02-2004, 03:37 PM	#27 (permalink)
smooth Junkie Location: Right here	Well now that you've put it that way, I've changed my mind. I now think that if someone came to my hometown, uninvited, to "improve the lot" of my family, but routinely ransacked my house looking for weapons and occasionally shot my siblings and friends, I'd cut those people into little pieces and toss them in a stew. I'd send some pieces to their families and make it real fucking clear that I don't want that type of help. I didn't ask for it and I'm not liking it. And I wouldn't feel the least bit of guilt about what I did. The soldiers, mercs, and civs over there aren't mourning the children they've killed, they're just collecting blood money. So now I think you're right. I think that this was deserved on some level. Thanks for convincing me, because before I was just trying to understand how someone could do this. Now I not only understand, I think I'd probably do the same thing. __________________ "The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann "You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman

04-02-2004, 03:56 PM	#30 (permalink)
smooth Junkie Location: Right here	I was mainly interested to see how far you or seretogis would take your ridiculous accusations. Once you two stepped in, the discussion took a dive. I'll come back in a week to see if it's recovered. Maybe you'll take a break and revisit this thread when you are less prone to start accusing fellow Americans of hating their country, shoving nasty statements in their mouths that they never said or would say ("evil," "child killing," ? fucking please spare me the theatrics), and just in general not adding much to the discussion. We were providing context for how these things don't happen in a vacuum, but that doesn't fit into your dichotomous good vs. evil paradigm. Thumbs up, baby, have fun castigating fellow citizens in persuit of your value of freedom and helping others. The altruism flowing from your eyes unfortunately prevents you from seeing what the people you claim to be helping actually want--you to leave them the fuck alone. It's like when little johnny is splattering brownie batter all over the kitchen and his mommy has to say," mommy really appreciates your help in making the brownies, but it might help more if you played with your Legos over there..." __________________ "The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann "You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman

04-02-2004, 04:45 PM	#32 (permalink)
smooth Junkie Location: Right here	Man, I've got to clear this up before leaving this thread to the dogs, cuz you are totally out of control. You started this thread by asking what kind of people do this sort of thing. Me, and a few others, replied that someone who looks out his or her window and sees foreigners invading one's hometown are going to react violently and, to some people, irrationally. The response from both you and seretogis was to accuse me of being anti-american, to think of my nation as "evil" and as somehow justifying these actions. Why the fuck did you even ask the question? You didn't want to know what people think could be the reason for these actions, you either wanted someone to stroke you off and support your preconception that these are unworthy barbarians who deserved to be slaughtered as fast as possible (send a cruise missile into the group of people, right?) or you wanted to castigate some fellow citizens who love the country they grew up in too. You've been doing this shit for over two years now. So rather than continue beating my head against the wall, I conceded that you've got me--I'm an American hating citizen who just can't wait to cut people up and throw them in my stew. You can't fucking recognize how retarded you sound to me when you reply that you don't doubt I would actually do that?! Let me just point out your very basic absence of comprehension: 1) you pointed out that you didn't read anything that would lead you to believe the commander was going to seek retribution on the whole twon In the very first sentence of the story you quoted, the commander stated that they were going to show the Iraqi's just how serious they were about this with "overwhelming force." 2) you seem to think the Iraqi people are happy we are liberating them once again, in the first line of the story you posted, the commander states that they are going to "retake" the city. That means they already took it, and lost it! The US military, arguably the most powerful, best equipped, and well-trained military in the history of civilization, didn't lose a city to a rag-tag group of barbarians. They lost it because the people don't want them there! 3) You claim that I think my country is evil and child killers I didn't say that shit. First of all, I don't walk around talking about good vs. evil. I left that crap in the playground with my Star Wars figures. I've got an adult perspective on human behavior now that doesn't relegate motivation to the great pie in the sky--maybe you'll join me someday. Secondly, bombs and bullets have killed children. That's a fact that weighs heavily on the families of those affected. I didn't state that americans are baby-killers, though, or that soldiers are baby-killers by definition. And if you had actually bothered to read through my entire post, you would have seen that I was opposed to hiring people from chile and other foreign nations to do some dirty war. So if I think those mercs are working for blood money, how the fuck do you get off accusing me of saying anything negative about our brave soldiers who have to die and kill for people who believe like you? __________________ "The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann "You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman

04-02-2004, 05:24 PM	#33 (permalink)
Tophat665 Minion of the scaléd ones Location: Northeast Jesusland	Now, I admit I haven't read all of the previous posts, but from what I did read, it seems to me like this is mostly an argument on whether or not we should ever have gone, and, having done so, whether we should still be there. This is entirely beside the point. We are there. Y'all know how I feel about that. In fact, there is only one thing that I can think of that I agree with Dubya on is this - Iraq is integral to the war on terror. Change that "is" to a "was" and we disagree again (and I don't think he knows what the word integral mean or how to say it). But the fact remains, we are there and, like it or not, it is part of the war on terror. So that brings us round to two things: What to do about it and how to stop it from happening again. I think even the most ardent peacenik would agree that we are stuck in Iraq. It's not so much a matter of how to get us out right now as how to get us out in the minimum amount of time with the smallest loss of life on both sides as possible, and in such a way that the bloodthirsty bastards who dragged us over there to begin with don't have an easy excuse to do it all again. My gut instinct is to give everyone in Faluja 15 minutes to get out of town, then burn and bulldoze the thing. Or maybe tattoo a red hand on the forehead of every inhabitant over the age of 11. This is, of course, no kind of solution (though I have to wonder if something severe, drastic, and thoroughly barbaric wouldn't in this day and age, shock people so much that they what? Surrender? Accept? Live in fear?) So 1) We're there, 2) It is now a legitimate battlefield, 3) and we can't leave any time soon. What now? __________________ Light a man a fire, and he will be warm while it burns. Set a man on fire, and he will be warm for the rest of his life.

04-02-2004, 05:32 PM	#34 (permalink)
crewsor Women want me. Men fear me. Location: Maryland,USA	Sounds to me like you may have some anger control issues, not to mention memory lapses. I put no words into your mouth. Anyone who reads your posts can see your disdain for our " brave soldiers". A qoute or two may be in order. smooth says "I now think that if someone came to my hometown, uninvited, to "improve the lot" of my family, but routinely ransacked my house looking for weapons and occasionally shot my siblings and friends, I'd cut those people into little pieces and toss them in a stew.to their families and make it real fucking clear that I don't want that type of help. I didn't ask for it and I'm not liking it. And I wouldn't feel the least bit of guilt about what I did." You said it and now you say I sound retarded for saying I believe you. Sheesh. "The soldiers, mercs, and civs over there aren't mourning the children they've killed, they're just collecting blood money." Yes, I can see your respect for our soldiers. "So now I think you're right. I think that this was deserved on some level. Thanks for convincing me, because before I was just trying to understand how someone could do this. Now I not only understand, I think I'd probably do the same thing." Here you say you believe those people got what they deserved. Smooth says, in relation tothe " brave soldiers" retribution on the entire town. "Damn strait it will. That's what it's been doing so far." So, you will have to excuse me if I take you at your word and interpret your statements for what they appear to be. But then again, it's me thats out of control. I'm sure you're just fine. __________________ We all have wings, some of us just don't know why. Last edited by crewsor; 04-02-2004 at 05:36 PM..

04-02-2004, 06:02 PM	#35 (permalink)
filtherton Junkie Location: In the land of ice and snow.	I agree with smooth. He's a smoooooth operator! Wasn't the tilted right just recently pewling about how the left doesn't listen to reason? No one on this post made any kind of endorsement of this brutality until after seretogis showed up with his fake outrage posturing. Even then, the only endorsement was more to prove a point. Allow me to paraphrase the arguments of one crewsor and one seretogis in a fashion similar to the way that they have paraphrased the arguments of others on this thread: Americans, wherever they are, shit sunshine. We are incapable of ever making any kind of political or international mistake. Foreigners are worth less then americans. When atrocities happen to foreigners it is simply one of the unpleasant things about war. When atrocities happen to americans, or anyone being paid by americans, such things are disgusting, malicious and should be swiftly punished by killing every last man woman and child in the town where it happened. That will send a clear message that americans don't mess around when it comes to punishing upstart rapscallions. Also, anyone who has the audacity to question america's foreign policy is obviously a coward and a traitor waiting for the opportune moment to sink his poison fangs into the very throat of the democracy that evey real american is willing to give their life for. Obviously, the pentagon would never decieve us in any way so we must take everything they say as the gospel that it is. In summary, when you have no other recourse, attack a broad caricature of your opponent's argument rather than anything directly related to what he/she said. Then sit back and watch the straw fly. Well Done!! Encore Gentlemen!!

04-02-2004, 06:16 PM	#36 (permalink)
crewsor Women want me. Men fear me. Location: Maryland,USA	You needn't state you agree with smooth filtherton. I can see that by your sig. But thanks anyway. __________________ We all have wings, some of us just don't know why.

04-02-2004, 06:32 PM	#37 (permalink)
filtherton Junkie Location: In the land of ice and snow.	I hope you didn't use that as an excuse to not read my post. btw. Does that mean that you think elder bush and mr. snowcroft agree with smooth too? They said it first.

04-02-2004, 06:34 PM	#38 (permalink)
smooth Junkie Location: Right here	ah shit, I shouldn't have said you sounded like a retard for believing what I wrote. My bad and apologies for jumping your shit over that portion. I should have dropped a sarcasm tag or something to let you know I was just feeding your caricature of me to illustrate how ludicrous it was. I didn't mean you were out of control, I just couldn't think of anything else at the time that wouldn't get me banned. I still stand by my contention that you don't appear to be genuinely interested in the "why" this occurred from the Iraqi's perspective, or how normal people can revert to these atrocious acts even if they aren't barbarians due to barbaric cirucmstances. p.s., I guess my "Junkie" status is just going to have to excuse me from my lie and spy of the thread! __________________ "The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann "You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman Last edited by smooth; 04-02-2004 at 06:39 PM..