Mojo_PeiPei

Britain fucked up after the fall of the Ottoman Empire. The U.N. later fucked up and partitioned the land. The Arabs fucked up and attacked Israel 4 times in 50 years , losing every time. The Palestinians fucked up and listened to the Arab when they were asked to leave while the Arabs were going to eradicate the Jews. In the long run the Outside Arab states are ultimately responsible for the state of things, leaving the Palestinians dicked.

__________________
To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

tdoc

I'm starting to believe that the Israelis and Palestinians deserve each other.

tdoc

Mojo

The British also forgot to create a Kurdish homeland. This has been causing strife in Turkey, Iran and Iraq ever since.

Mojo_PeiPei

Indeed leaving 25 million people, the largest ethnic group without a homeland in the world. I would hope the US would get smart and partition Iraq, lord knows at least the Kurds deserve it. Plus I really don't trust Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani, he seems to be putting some hardcore shit into motion.

__________________
To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

pan6467

I see my post was attacked. Any proof to prove me wrong? No, and I simply stated that Isreal (NOT ALL JEWS) throw the Holocaust in everyone's face irregardless of the facts that OTHERS DIED ALSO, THE GOVERNMENT THAT DID IT IS NO LONGER IN EXISTENCE AND THE US HAS PAID FOR ISREAL TO EXIST.

Meanwhile, Isreal treats the Palestines much the same as the Nazis treated the Jews. AS HALF CITIZENS WITH NO RIGHTS! I pulled up a JEWISH AUTHOR WHO WROTE A BOOK THAT OBVIOUSLY TICKED OF SOME ISREALI AS THE MOSSAD KILLED THE MAN, to prove that ISREAL is just as guilty at hatemongering as any other Middle Eastern country or NAZI for that matter.

You want to debate fine, I DO HAVE AN OPEN MIND SHOW ME FACTS THAT DISPROVE WHAT JACK BERNSTEIN WROTE. You want to resort to childish name calling and more hate mongering it ain't happening with me. Simply tell me how Isreal is not treating the Palestines like the Nazis treated people in Germany, show me how Isreal wants peace and their plan at getting it.

Show me how Bernstein is wrong with his writings.

Tell me how websites like these are anti semitic and full of crap:

1.. Jews NOT Zionists \topurl{http://www.jewsnotzionists.org}

2.. Not in My Name: www.nimn.org

3.. Jewish Peace Fellowship
\topurl{http://www.jewishpeacefellowship.org/index.htm}

4.. Neturei Karta Homepage
\topurl{http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Bunker/5750/home.html}

5.. Yesh Gvul, The movement for IDF men refusing to
serve in the Occupied Territories. \topurl{http://www.diak.org/Haayesh-}


6.. Israeli Committee Against Home Demolitions
\topurl{http://www.salam.org/activism/home_demolitions.html}

7.. Bat Shalom, Israeli Women for Peace \topurl{http://www.batshalom.org/}

8.. Deutsch-Isrelischer Arbeitskreis fur Frieden im Nahen Osten (DIAK)
\topurl{http://www.batshalom.org/}

9.. Eda Haredit, A hundred thousand anti-Zionist
Hasidim all at one place.
\topurl{http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill...91/satmar.html}

10.. B'Tselem \topurl{http://www.btselem.org/}

11.. "Occupied Territory" \topurl{http://www.occupied.org/}

12.. Rabbis for Human Rights \topurl{http://www.rhr.israel.net/indexa.html}

13.. Not in Our Name Coalition \topurl{http://www.diak.org/not_in_our_name.htm}

14.. Oz v'Shalom - Netivot Shalom (religious Zionist anti-Occupation)
\topurl{http://www.ariga.com/ozveshalom/index.asp}

15.. The Hidden History of Zionism by Ralph
Schoenman: \topurl{http://www.balkanunity.org/mideast/english/zionism/}
16.. Association for Civil Rights in Israel \topurl{http://www.nif.org/acri/}

17.. Gush Shalom \topurl{http://www.gush-shalom.org/}

18.: Jews United Against Zionism:
\topurl{http://www.netureikarta.org/index.htm}

Just debate the issue. Why resort to name calling and treating someone like they are an idiot. If Bernstein and these sites are wrong then show me proof, DEBATE. But no again you'll attack or ignore. Obviously, you feel I am uneducated and ignorant so educate me. But your excuse will be you don't have time or no matter what you say won't help. To that I ask why? You have enough time to explain and celebrate why 6 people should die without trial. You have no time to try to debate peacefully and maybe win others onto your side.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Mojo_PeiPei

How does Israel not treat the Palestinians without rights? The Palestinians that are Israeli citizens have all the same as the next citizen, get this though, Palestinians living in refugee camps I.E. in Gaza or the West Bank are not Israeli Sovereign, they are respectively under the control of Egypt and Jordan. Not to mention that Israel is not systematically ERADICATING AN ENTIRE RACE OF PEOPLE. Thats why Nazi Germany and Israel differ.

__________________
To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

Jizz-Fritter

I disagree, I think Kennedy created the world's premiere terrorist organization. Hamas is 'low rent'.

Maybe terrorism would not be a problem in Israel if the Palestinians were given rights, and the too-wealthy-for-their-own-good PLO leaders evicted. /me

Mojo_PeiPei

As stated before rights of the Palestinians is not in the hands of the Israeli's, hopefully they can figure it out this summer when the provisional state is established (its this summer right?).

__________________
To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

hannukah harry

you mean the peace-corps?

__________________
shabbat shalom, mother fucker! - the hebrew hammer

pan6467

I quoted this one because it was more to the point.

Gaza and West Strip are NOT UNDER ISREALI RULE WHATSOEVER?

LINK: http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/...k/geos/gz.html

THIS IS A DIRECT QUOTE FROM THE UNITED STATES CIA, lifted from the link so that people can decide whether they choose to look over the whole of the CIA paper on West Strip / GAZA.

"Disputes - international:
West Bank and Gaza Strip are Israeli-occupied with current status subject to the Israeli-Palestinian Interim Agreement - permanent status to be determined through further negotiation

This page was last updated on 18 December, 2003"

Seems to me the Isrealis still occupy.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Sun Tzu

?

The Green Berets, Navy SEALs, Forced Recon, and Air Force Special Forces. . . Is this what you mean? Sorry to get off subject, maybe if you could start another thread you could further explain you mean.

__________________
To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit.- Stephen Hawking

Mojo_PeiPei

Israel's occupation doesn't mean they have annexed the land or asserted any political or civic control over it. They are in there because of military operation, much like the US in Iraq.

__________________
To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

pan6467

So if Gaza and West Bank are under Egyptian and Jordanian control, why is Isreal allowed to bomb them and send troops in? Seems to me Egypt and Jordan would consider this breaching their lands.

However, you are right you are not "eradicating" a race, just giving them no rights and freedoms and killing their leaders without trials.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

popo

First of all, stop shouting.

Second of all, I've been through these debates here and on other sites. Ask Food Eater Lad, if he's still around. I won't shy away from anything.

Third of all, I'm sorry if you think that this is an insult directed at you but your sources are comprised of bullshit. If you throw out that Bernstein was murdered by Mossad, it's not up to me to prove that he wasn't. It's up to you to prove that he was.

I say JFK was murdered by an ice cream truck driver. IF YOU DISAGREE, PROVE ME WRONG.

Now, I'm not going into the tired Holocaust debate. If you're obsessed by that then debate it over on another site or start your own thread. From what I see, you're the one bringing it up, not Israelis and not Jews.

Also, I never said that you are anti-semitic. But you seem to have a raw nerve that someone here has touched on. How, I don't know.

You want to equate Nazi Germany to Israel, it's your job to prove it to us. Show us how Israel is exterminating the Palestinian people. Show us how 4000 deaths (Btselem stats) in 16 years of conflict equal 6,000,000 in 6 years.

And again, stop shouting.

Jizz-Fritter

Kennedy established a terrorist network to bait Castro. This organization was funded for twenty years at $50 million a year.

But terrorism is ok when the good guys are instigating. Reagan's backing of contras was hood rat compared to Kennedy's.

pan6467

Then tell me why my sources are bullshit. It's easy like you said to say anything. So you saying they are Bullshit means nothing.

Explain to me why.

That simple. If you had this discussion in another thread and blew away all these links and sources then simply show me the link and I'll read it with open mind.

But where is the need to attack me? Simply put I am not in anyway attacking you, but putting forth my beliefs and WHY I believe them, all I am asking is show me why my beliefs are wrong. You have my guarnatee that I will read whatever evidence you present with open mind and I will admit I am wrong and that the materials I believed were wrong. That is a debate. That is how we learn and and exchange ideas. That is how progress is made. Not by attacking and treating others as though they are stupid and cannot change.

i have put forth my argument in a peaceful non attacking way. Why can't you? Truth does not have to attack, truth opens the heart and soul and reveals itself.

*edited to stop "yelling"*

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

pan6467

I think that covers the Nazi part.

And no, noone else did, as I stated I had written that post on a different forum (Dave Davies.com/talktodave) but believed the point made was relevant here. To me the Holocaust killed far more than just Jews, but you are right, that is beside the point and is out of the realm for this focus. I appologize.

(LOL..... I am sure there were people here who didn't believe me capable of that. sorry tried to add a bit of humor)

So far Popo I give you credit that you are at least grasping debate and showing respect. I applaud you for your civility.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

popo

Jeez dude, relax. No one has attacked you. Yet you're still shouting.

What you don't seem to understand is that if we are not expected to believe you simply because you say it's true. It's not up to us to disprove what you say, it's up to you to prove it. If you want to know the truth then just research your sources and their sources. We don't need to do your thinking for you.

If you still think I'm attacking you, well then...

pan6467

But you had stated that Isreal was free of those territories all together and that they were Jordanian and Egyptian. Now you are admitting that Isreal does occupy.

And by the way, "much like Iraq" we see where that is going. It is Bush's illegal war and his reasons change when the previous one is found to be a lie. Bad comparison, if you are making a point.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

pan6467

First I edited.

Secondly I applauded you.

Thirdly, this is the problem and you are illustrating it well. How can there be peace and how can anyone expect to find common ground.

When one side shows his research, shows what he believes and is honestly asking the other to simply show their side. But that side is saying they don't want to. That the person needs to research more.

OK so basically what you are saying is what I believe is bullshit but you don't want to prove me wrong. Instead you would rather 1) have me say ok and keep my beliefs, because you are not showing me anything. Why should I even care I obviously have my answers. (Yet, I have an open mind and truly want to know the truth, therefore I am asking the other side to explain what and where my beliefs are wrong. Why is that so hard to do? I even said throw me links if you don't want to type it and I'll read them.)
2) have no idea how to show where I am wrong
or
3) truly don't care

Again I ask, How is this productive? Does this not lead to just more misunderstandings and hatreds? If you want to change minds the first step is open discussion of ideas. I gave mine but I get nothing from you. That will not change minds, that will only affirm the belief.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

popo

You did not present your ideas. You linked to an already much-debated very long article written by someone else. And you want me to counter that article point by point? Sorry, I don't have the next 6 weeks to spend on this.

But you're right. A part of me doesn't care. One thing I've learned from these debates is that the person will leave with the exact same opinion as when they came in. When shown how they lie and manipulate facts, they may get embarassed, they may go out in flames and they make change their moniker, but they will not change their mind. If I'm wrong about you... well you know the saying "fool me once shame on you..." I've been fooled way too many times. Shame on me.

If you have specific points that need clarification, I'm all ears.

pan6467

Ok here is what I am trying to do. Obviously unsuccessful and therefore pointless it appears.

I am showing you all my cards so to speak. I am saying this is what I believe and why. BUT, I am also saying I do this with open mind and therefore if you show me how and why my beliefs are wrong then I will gladly change my mind.

These are the problems are world is facing today. Noone anywhere wants to persuade peacefully the other side. So each side is believing theirs to be right and in doing so becoming more and more stubborn and unwilling to hear.

Yes, this might just be some small forum and won't change the world but if one mind is changed by you explaining your side RATIONALLY and without name calling, treating others like they don't know anything and so on, then perhaps maybe that person can affect another's belief and that person and another's and so on and so on. But to just sit and allow someone to believe something and not try to show how they are wrong is just as wrong as the beliefs may be. Because you keep the misunderstandings and hatred going.

Perhaps, I am a dreamer and believe the world can change by people trying to achieve the sharing of ideas and dispelling myths and beliefs that are unfounded.

All I know is that in order for change both sides must offer their views without prejudice, which is what I tried to do.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Sun Tzu

Just a couple questions:

I've come to understand that Britain was sloppy, Im curious as to what your perception and historical interpretation is in the way they did.

Same question for the UNs role.

Are you familiar with what the percentage of European Jewish immigrants were Zionists? of that what percentage was largely responsible for LAWFULLY purchasing land from the "inhabitants" that were living alongside the native Jewish population in an area known as Palestine.


You know how hard it is to find what might be a neutral and accurate source of historical documentation these days especially with the internet being an open and available source for anyone to promote their interests. Can you please provide a source whether net related or not that has this historical record exactly as you've stated here. I only ask because I was under the impression the "inhabitants" were told to leave because anyone that stayed were "on their own" with the incoming Israeli forces.

If Im understanding you right; your saying that the Arab army (or whatever you want to call it) instructed the civilians to leave so they could kill the incoming Jewish forces. Is this correct?

Thanks for the input.

__________________
To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit.- Stephen Hawking

pan6467

Popo,

I like you. You are intelligent, you are trying hard not to attack and you are honest. I truly appluad you for that and I truly admire you, perhaps we may call each other friend.

I can understand your reasoning because of the past issues you've had in not laying out your cards. But I am sincere and I am being as forthcoming and as open as I can be. But I cannot change what I believe if you don't give me a reason as to why I should. Saying the links provided and book I mentioned is filled with lies, doesn't give sound reason as to why I should research more, therefore my conclusion should stand.

So we are at an impasse on this subject. Perhaps someday, you and I can sit down open a thread and you'll be comfortable enough with me to share your beliefs.

As for me it's time to call it a night. Peace be with you my friend.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Bookman

You will never be heard.
The devil leading the blind results in lemmings with stirred emotions and belligerent communication practices.

Jizz-Fritter

I find it humorous that many of you in this thread are calling the Hamas leader "monster" and "animal". You are exhibiting the manipulation of propaganda. Usually before a nation can begin a military campaign or semi-slaughter, the enemy has to be cast as evil, a monster, or in Bush-I's "He's [Saddam] a little Hitler."

Once everyone believes that some person is inhuman, then it is ok to kill them. Yes, the Hamas leader inspired the death of X number of people, but no person is not human, and no person deserves death.

It's like that "strategic" bombing of a restaurant Saddam might have been in two days before Gulf-War II. No body gave a fuck about everyone else in the restaurant, because there was a monster/animal in there that HAD to be killed.

Israel being one of the most racist, terrorist nations on earth, killing that Hamas leader and everyone else around him was all-in-a-day's-work.

lurkette

Sigh. I have two things to say:

1. Please keep it civil. You guys have been doing great so far but I can't see this discussion going anywhere positive. I know it's an emotionally charged subject, but please try to enlighten each other. Dialogue in the place of debate would be a refreshing change.

2. Anybody who thinks either side is 100% in the right is blind to the facts. Keep in mind that you may not HAVE all the facts. Humility is the key to enlightenment, grasshopper.

__________________
"If ten million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing."

- Anatole France

Mojo_PeiPei

Yes Israel is occupying Gaza and West Bank. As it stands they have been wanting to dump the land back into the hands of Arab control for 30+ years. Their occupation is still going on because of on going military missions to stop terrorism after two infitida's. I don't think Iraq is a bad comparison to the situation in Israel, Europe has been trying to pass sanctions and penalties onto Israel for a great many years because of the "illegal occupation", the US just vetoes them all down.

I think you need to do some more dirt digging Pan, Israel is not the lone gunman when it comes to the plight of the Palestinians. The Palestinians have been exploited by Jordan and Syria for nearly 40 years now. The fact that Palestinians can become Israeli citizens and have full rights there, or the fact that if they stay in the West Bank under Jordan and get no rights speaks volumes.

You're right, he was a nice person and a decent human being.... Or you can live in reality and realize that this guy was an asshat and had it coming.

__________________
To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

pan6467

Again, no points, nothing to allow me to open my mind. Just more "Do your own research". Hell, you guys aren't even showing me where to start, yet I am to believe all my facts and research to date is wrong solely because you say so?

Just remember this, people in this thread came to you asking for knowledge (peacefully) and you chose not to give them any. As stated before that is worse than us having "false and faulty beliefs" because by your unwillingness to show anything, you perpetrate intentionally those beliefs to become even more firm and feelings of "why does it matter?" to continue. It all snowballs to where people, like me who do have open minds say, "fuck it, why should I care anymore?" (Unfortunately, speaking just for myself, I love life and living on this planet and learning others' ideas before we all destroy each other.)

As Billions of tax dollars go over there, I think the US people deserve to know what kind of people we are truly supporting in Isreal. Because the tax dollars we are sending over happens to be cutting into the education, health and growth of this country. Plus with that deficit thingy and all it's cutting into the future of the US in every aspect. But it's ok, we'll keep politicians in office who won't question and they'll keep sending you the checks.

Perhaps Isreal doesn't want peace. The more problems there are in the Middle East the more the US turns its back on what Isreal does and the more tax dollars Isreal gets from the US and UK to buy more WMD's, and perpetrate more hate and more troubles in that region. Aw well, we all have to die sometime, just was hoping a generation someday would be living without fear of the Middle East.

By the way............ you were the one who told me that ISREAL WASN'T THERE TO BEGIN WITH, now when confronted with facts you admit they do, but only because they are trying to instill peace. Either you are flat out lying or you truly don't know what's going on and you just can't admit that your beliefs are as faulty as mine.

You state they have been trying to get rid of Gaza, then why did they fight the 7 day war for it? Why when given oppurtunities left and right to rid themselves of it do they keep it?

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Bookman

I am not well versed in the religious doctrine but answer this...
Doesnt the doctrine call for a mass death? Waiting on a Red Calf?
Where do the protocols come into play when analyzing their political/military moves?

Sun Tzu

Its my opinion that these are among the most damaging passenges. I see these few words being the cause of alot of trouble; in the worst kinds of ways. Especially to individuals such as myself that see the Bible (especially the old test) as something similiar to Homer's writings.- I do rephrase IMO

"Behold, you are with child, and shall bear a son; you shall call his name Ishmael; because The Lord has given heed to your affliction. He shall be a wild ass of a man, his hand against every man and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell over against all his kinsmen." (Genesis 16:11-12).

"Cast out this slave woman with her son; for the son of this slave woman shall not be heir with my son Isaac." (Genesis 21:10 RSV)

Genesis 17
17Then Abraham bowed down to the ground, but he laughed to himself in disbelief. "How could I become a father at the age of one hundred?" he wondered. "Besides, Sarah is ninety; how could she have a baby?" 18And Abraham said to God, "Yes, may Ishmael enjoy your special blessing!"
19But God replied, "Sarah, your wife, will bear you a son. You will name him Isaac,[1] and I will confirm my everlasting covenant with him and his descendants.

There's been war ever since. The irony that both sides have the same father is overwhelming.



The Protocols shouldnt come into play; because theres too much debate over whether they're faked or not. Some may see their reference as being anti-semetic, distracting any point your trying to make. (unless your talking in a Illuminati or Bohemian Grove conspiracy thing) with a overtone of poltical correctness over it. I think they also damage the understanding (yeah some disagree) that there is a difference between being Jewish and being a Zionist. If you dont know; its worth researching.

__________________
To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit.- Stephen Hawking

Mojo_PeiPei

1. US aid to Israel is I believe ball park figure 3-4 billion annually, some say as high as 5.5. It was something they recieved for making peace with Egpyt, hence Egypt recieves the same package. A lot of it is in loan form. As it goes Israel may be one of the few countries to have never faltered in paying it back. Further more why shouldn't Israel be allowed foreign aid? They been a very powerful strategic ally in two different major political fronts (cold war/ war on terrorism).

http://www.hotpolitics.com/tax4israel.htm
2. Perhaps Israel doesn't want peace. Or perhaps they want to be left alone. 1949 they made gains after being Invaded, same with 56'. The six day war of 67' came about because Egypt, Jordan, and Syria kept provoking Israel's military which was causing serious economic repercussions in the country, so Israel fixed the problem by beating the piss out of the Egpytian and Syrian militaries. Israel held on the gains as a means to bargain and broker peace. The Arabs refused to deal with the Israeli's except for Saddat in the 70's, at which point Gaza was relinquished, and Saddat was killed by hardliners.

3. I never said Israel was not occupying Gaza or the West Bank. You were talking about how they Palestinians there are held down, you were blaming Israel. All I made mention to was the fact that those incharge of the situation are actually Egypt, Jordan, and The PA. Civically and politcally Israel exerts no control. The occupation is a tough thing. On one hand you have Palestinians being repressed, on the other everytime Israel eases up a bus or restuarant gets blown up. The PA has done nothing to curb the terrorism, if anything it promotes it through organizations that are a member of the politcal fatah movement i.e. Al Aqsa. At this point Israel has every right to protect its citizens by any and all means necessary.

I wasn't trying to shout anyone down, nor was I trying to avoid the facts. If I am wrong someone can point it out, but as I understand it, this is the way things currently are. Also I think a big conflict of interest is that we are on different ends of the hawk/dove spectrum, not to mention it seems you misread or misinterpreted what I said.

__________________
To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

Bookman

Very good response.
I do believe that there is a difference between being Jewish & Zionist yet in policy there are Zionists in control of Israel. This brings the Jewish people into a generalization.

Just like here in the US.

popo

Pan, no one is calling you names. But Bernstein (regardless of his religion) comes from the extreme fringe. It's just way too time-consuming to go through his book point by point. If you want to read more on the subject then get Thomas Freidman (who in spite of his religion is viewed as very balanced.

If you want to read the opposite of Bernstein read Joseph Farah, an Arab:

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/ar...TICLE_ID=37696

But if you have any specific question, like I said, I'm all ears.

Mojo_PeiPei

__________________
To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

SLM3

Mojo_PeiPei,

It's been interesting reading your ongoing comments. After studying the Israel/Palestine question for years, I've become fascinated with the how the Zionist argument is put forth, despite all the history and evidence it contradicts. You recite the doctirne as if you have a textbook next to your computer. All the key points are mentioned:

1) Israel is never the aggressor, but instead always on the defensive, using its "purity of arms".

2) Palestinians ran away because they were told to by their leaders.

3) "Occupation".

4) Arab Israeli's have equal rights.

5) Arab/Jew conflict the norm for thousands of years.

I think all you need to do to fully solidify your position is to deny the existence of the Palestinians as a people and state that Palestine was empty before the Jews got there. A land without people waiting for a people without land, right?

I'm curious, what University do/did you do the majority of your studying on the subject at?


SLM3

filtherton

Did you write that mojo?

pan6467

Now we have peaceful discourse of ideas. My thanks gentlemen and my appologies if you mistook my postings.

But now we learn why others think what they do. Now we exchange so ideas and now perhaps we can start healing on both sides and this issue as far as this forum is concerned has answers on both sides to research and change or at least understand ideas new to them.

I truly commend you Popo and Mojo for sharing and at least starting me with some ideas I may not have known of.

Enlightenment is the only way to true peace. Violence shall only beget more extreme violence till eventually no man truly has any idea why he is fighting.

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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Mojo_PeiPei

I found the parallels very interesting myself

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To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

Zeld2.0

I find one learns with experience.. .settle down young lads

Anyways so who is up for the game 'grow more terrorists'