What's that you say? 400 billion dollars? Sounds Good. - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

filtherton · 03-16-2004, 08:25 PM

http://www.kaisernetwork.org/daily_r...fm?DR_ID=22676

Quote:

Richard Foster, chief actuary for CMS, on Friday confirmed that he was ordered by then-CMS Administrator Tom Scully to withhold from legislators "unfavorable cost estimates" for the Medicare legislation, which exceeded by more than $100 billion "what Congress seemed willing to accept," the Philadelphia Inquirer reports (Pugh, Philadelphia Inquirer, 3/13). The Inquirer last week reported that an e-mail from Foster to colleagues at CMS indicated he believed he might lose his job if he revealed his estimates of the Medicare legislation's cost. According to Office of Management and Budget estimates released after Congress passed the legislation, the Medicare law will cost $534 billion over the next 10 years, $134 billion more than estimated by the Congressional Budget Office (Kaiser Daily Health Policy Report, 3/12). While "internal documents and federal officials" indicated that the Bush administration knew of the higher estimate for the legislation before its passage and enactment, until now "it has not been apparent the lengths to which Bush aides who negotiated the bill with Congress went to keep the figures private," the Washington Post reports (Goldstein, Washington Post, 3/13). Foster said the higher cost projection was known before the final House and Senate votes on the legislation in November, but he added that Scully told him, "'We can't let that get out'" (Rogers, Wall Street Journal, 3/15).

A medicare actuary was told to keep his mouth shut about the true costs of the medicare bill.
Apparently, the admin had to throw out a number to get some fiscal conservatives to sign on(what does that say about party cohesion?). Unfortunately, the admin underestimated(those wacky bush economists, when will they ever get it right?). They "underestimated" to the tune of 100 to 200 billion dollars. Not only that, but when their actuary came up with a higher, more accurarate figure he was made to feel like his job would be in jeopardy if he spilt the beans.

The point? They knew their figure was innacurate. They also knew that an accurate figure would probably result in their bill not passing. Instead of doing the honest thing, the *ahem* christian thing, they keep quiet. Bill passes, higher cost becomes apparent, bush pisses off (and on) members of his own party by lying to them.
Now, as some of you may know, i think that most politicians are lying sacks of shit. This is more for the people on the right side who decry candidate kerry's apparent lack of integrity compared to bush's godlike status, the people who think(i'm paraphrasing) "bush does what he says he is going to do, he is a man of integrity".

This may seem nitpicky, but i thought that with all of these nitpicky articles about kerry, perhaps we could balance things out a bit.

onetime2 · 03-17-2004, 04:10 AM

You're right it does seem nitpicky. This happens in every spending situation, is certainly not limited to Bush, and it absolutely will not be eliminated with Kerry in charge.

Superbelt · 03-17-2004, 04:15 AM

In every spending situation someone's job is threatened if they reveal the true costs of legislation when questioned about it?

irseg · 03-17-2004, 04:39 AM

Funny how when a private company overestimates its profit or plays with its books, everyone screams bloody murder about how they should lock up all those evil CEOs and throw away the key.

But when the government takes hundreds of billions of *OUR* hard earned dollars and lies to us about how much of it they plan to spend, people for the most part don't really care.

WTF?!

onetime2 · 03-17-2004, 04:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Superbelt
In every spending situation someone's job is threatened if they reveal the true costs of legislation when questioned about it?

Yeah that's it. In every spending situation the person pushing for the spending chooses what estimate is gone with and tries to limit those with other estimates.

When it comes down to main positions in ANY politician's career their job can ride on whether it is successful or not.

Are you telling me that Kerry will disclose all the costs associated with his national health insurance plan should he be elected President?

tecoyah · 03-17-2004, 05:13 AM

How did this become an attack on Kerry? HOW? Rather than shifting to a possibility, why not focus on the reality. The Bush administration LIED to congress, and we all have to pay billions of dollars for it.Period.
When Kerry or any other official does this, I will be disgusted with them at that point, but not until it occurs. If Bush supporters want to have some measure of respect in the eyes of the rest of us.....at least admit to his deficiencies, as well as Kerrys'.

filtherton · 03-17-2004, 06:34 AM

So what you're saying, onetime2, is that since everybody does it, it is all right? Sorry, just had to ask.

The admin not only lied to congress, it lied to fiscal conservatives in its own party. How "uniter" is that action?

Tomservo · 03-17-2004, 10:20 AM

Onetime2- your statement is ABSOLUTELY ridiculous.

Gray Davis was careful to make sure no one knew about California's impending deficit, because he knew he'd be jeopardizing his job. When the news came out, we were $25B in the hole, the people of California flipped him the bird and kicked him out of office. Don't give me this "all politicians lie" BS- the people of California evicted Gray Davis for his lie. Hell, the people of America *continue* to persecute Bill Clinton for lying about banging an intern, something that should have *cost them not a thin nickel!

In my personal work history, when asked to price a plan, I have to research to find the cheapest plan, then get approval to go forward. If there are going to be overages (taxes, shipping, implementation costs) I have to imply them at the point of approval, or the powers that be will hold me accountable. In other words, if I want to keep my job, I have to be FISCALLY ACCURATE. This is the exact opposite of your "every spending situation". If my costs skyrocket, I simply won't get any money to meet them, and the business will suffer, and ultimately, I may lose my job.

*In reality, the Clinton affair cost the country money in the prosecution, special sessions, so on. However, it made lots of money for news outlets, which then benefited the economy. Go figure.

Bobaphat · 03-17-2004, 10:52 AM

When you're used to dealing with trillion dollar deficits, what's a few hundred million?

filtherton · 03-17-2004, 12:18 PM

You mean 134 billion?
Roughly a fourth of the total cost and 30% more than the quoted price.

shakran · 03-17-2004, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tecoyah
How did this become an attack on Kerry? HOW?

Because the rule of thumb is, when your side is caught doing something wrong, attack everyone else to divert attention away from you.

This thread is almost nothing but a bunch of people running around screaming "well gee, these OTHER guys did it, so it's OK for Bush to do it."

If it's wrong, it's wrong. Bush lied. No surprise there.

Attacking Kerry is asinine because he hasn't been in the position to do what Bush did. Let him commit the crime before you convict him of it eh?

onetime2 · 03-18-2004, 06:18 AM

Not that anyone here really cares about my opinion, but my point was not that it's ok to hide the costs of programs. IMO our representatives lying to us should not be tolerated.

My response was focused on the fact that this criticism is focused solely on Bush and the original post points to it as an answer to those who see Kerry as "lacking integrity".

In point of fact I do not think Kerry lacks integrity but he absolutely should be questioned about his reversals just as EVERY OTHER CANDIDATE IS.

If you want to discuss political lying then try pointing out that both sides do it and stop pointing only to one side and using it as a justification for why that side is the wrong choice.

filtherton · 03-18-2004, 06:34 AM

Then we kind've agree, onetime2. Like i says in the initial post, i think most politicians are lying sacks of shit. I just wanted to point out to certain bush supporting individuals who try to gain leverage for bush with kerry's lack of integrity, that their shit, indeed, doth produce a stink as well.

onetime2 · 03-18-2004, 06:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by filtherton
Then we kind've agree, onetime2. Like i says in the initial post, i think most politicians are lying sacks of shit. I just wanted to point out to certain bush supporting individuals who try to gain leverage for bush with kerry's lack of integrity, that their shit, indeed, doth produce a stink as well.

I don't think there're many people who believe Bush doesn't lie. In fact, most people agree with you that all politicians are liars. It's the specific "lies" that people disagree on.

Tomservo · 03-18-2004, 02:21 PM

Onetime2- In your generalization you ignore my entire point, that Gray Davis was kicked out of office for doing precisely what you claim we allow politicians to get away with. Davis hid the truth about the deficit, and when it came out, the folks went crazy and booted him out. Granted, the recall was supported by rich Right-wingers, but the vote wasn't close when it hit the ballot. Folks were pissed off.

Ironically, all the problems plaguing California (Deficit spending, energy costs, unemployment, so on) also plague America, and Bush is still firmly in office, while Gray might as well have been the Devil.

onetime2 · 03-19-2004, 04:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tomservo
Onetime2- In your generalization you ignore my entire point, that Gray Davis was kicked out of office for doing precisely what you claim we allow politicians to get away with. Davis hid the truth about the deficit, and when it came out, the folks went crazy and booted him out. Granted, the recall was supported by rich Right-wingers, but the vote wasn't close when it hit the ballot. Folks were pissed off.

Ironically, all the problems plaguing California (Deficit spending, energy costs, unemployment, so on) also plague America, and Bush is still firmly in office, while Gray might as well have been the Devil.

Your point has nothing to do with the original post. The original post talks about John Kerry and George Bush and that's what I've addressed.

I never said that there was never a case of politicians being kicked out of office for hiding costs. I said that it is the norm rather than the exception. Pointing to a single statewide case as being representative of other states or the nation isn't very convincing to me, sorry.

tecoyah · 03-19-2004, 05:38 AM

OKay then.....the facts.

Bush administration (not just Bush) Lies and intimidates in an attempt to pass legislation.
Bush administration attempts to bribe a congressman to influence his vote on said legislation.
Bush administration creates propoganda campaign(false news reports) to highlight the benefits of aforementioned legislation.

Most important aspect of this situation....No comments from whitehouse, and no immediate attempts to hold ANYONE accountable for these blatantly ILLEGAL acts.

In my opinion, the acts are bad enough, but my fears are tied into the obvious failure of our system of government to police itself. This administration is getting away with actions that run in direct opposition to what I always considered the foundation of America, and nobody seems to have the fortitude to call them on it.

I am afraid for my country, if this continues!I actually applied for a passport for the first time in my life.....just in case.

03-17-2004, 04:10 AM	#2 (permalink)
onetime2 Junkie Location: NJ	You're right it does seem nitpicky. This happens in every spending situation, is certainly not limited to Bush, and it absolutely will not be eliminated with Kerry in charge. __________________ Strive to be more curious than ignorant.

03-17-2004, 05:13 AM	#6 (permalink)
tecoyah Illusionary	How did this become an attack on Kerry? HOW? Rather than shifting to a possibility, why not focus on the reality. The Bush administration LIED to congress, and we all have to pay billions of dollars for it.Period. When Kerry or any other official does this, I will be disgusted with them at that point, but not until it occurs. If Bush supporters want to have some measure of respect in the eyes of the rest of us.....at least admit to his deficiencies, as well as Kerrys'. __________________ Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

03-17-2004, 10:52 AM	#9 (permalink)
Bobaphat whoopity doo Location: Seattle	When you're used to dealing with trillion dollar deficits, what's a few hundred million? __________________ --size matters not-- yoda

03-18-2004, 06:18 AM	#12 (permalink)
onetime2 Junkie Location: NJ	Not that anyone here really cares about my opinion, but my point was not that it's ok to hide the costs of programs. IMO our representatives lying to us should not be tolerated. My response was focused on the fact that this criticism is focused solely on Bush and the original post points to it as an answer to those who see Kerry as "lacking integrity". In point of fact I do not think Kerry lacks integrity but he absolutely should be questioned about his reversals just as EVERY OTHER CANDIDATE IS. If you want to discuss political lying then try pointing out that both sides do it and stop pointing only to one side and using it as a justification for why that side is the wrong choice. __________________ Strive to be more curious than ignorant.

03-19-2004, 05:38 AM	#17 (permalink)
tecoyah Illusionary	OKay then.....the facts. Bush administration (not just Bush) Lies and intimidates in an attempt to pass legislation. Bush administration attempts to bribe a congressman to influence his vote on said legislation. Bush administration creates propoganda campaign(false news reports) to highlight the benefits of aforementioned legislation. Most important aspect of this situation....No comments from whitehouse, and no immediate attempts to hold ANYONE accountable for these blatantly ILLEGAL acts. In my opinion, the acts are bad enough, but my fears are tied into the obvious failure of our system of government to police itself. This administration is getting away with actions that run in direct opposition to what I always considered the foundation of America, and nobody seems to have the fortitude to call them on it. I am afraid for my country, if this continues!I actually applied for a passport for the first time in my life.....just in case. __________________ Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

03-17-2004, 04:15 AM	#3 (permalink)
Superbelt This vexes me. I am terribly vexed. Location: Grantville, Pa	In every spending situation someone's job is threatened if they reveal the true costs of legislation when questioned about it?

03-17-2004, 04:39 AM	#4 (permalink)
irseg Junkie Location: Florida	Funny how when a private company overestimates its profit or plays with its books, everyone screams bloody murder about how they should lock up all those evil CEOs and throw away the key. But when the government takes hundreds of billions of OUR hard earned dollars and lies to us about how much of it they plan to spend, people for the most part don't really care. WTF?!

03-17-2004, 06:34 AM	#7 (permalink)
filtherton Junkie Location: In the land of ice and snow.	So what you're saying, onetime2, is that since everybody does it, it is all right? Sorry, just had to ask. The admin not only lied to congress, it lied to fiscal conservatives in its own party. How "uniter" is that action?

03-17-2004, 10:20 AM	#8 (permalink)
Tomservo Crazy Location: Los Angeles, CA	Onetime2- your statement is ABSOLUTELY ridiculous. Gray Davis was careful to make sure no one knew about California's impending deficit, because he knew he'd be jeopardizing his job. When the news came out, we were $25B in the hole, the people of California flipped him the bird and kicked him out of office. Don't give me this "all politicians lie" BS- the people of California evicted Gray Davis for his lie. Hell, the people of America continue to persecute Bill Clinton for lying about banging an intern, something that should have cost them not a thin nickel! In my personal work history, when asked to price a plan, I have to research to find the cheapest plan, then get approval to go forward. If there are going to be overages (taxes, shipping, implementation costs) I have to imply them at the point of approval, or the powers that be will hold me accountable. In other words, if I want to keep my job, I have to be FISCALLY ACCURATE. This is the exact opposite of your "every spending situation". If my costs skyrocket, I simply won't get any money to meet them, and the business will suffer, and ultimately, I may lose my job. In reality, the Clinton affair cost the country money in the prosecution, special sessions, so on. However, it made lots of money for news outlets, which then benefited the economy. Go figure.

03-17-2004, 12:18 PM	#10 (permalink)
filtherton Junkie Location: In the land of ice and snow.	You mean 134 billion? Roughly a fourth of the total cost and 30% more than the quoted price.

03-18-2004, 06:34 AM	#13 (permalink)
filtherton Junkie Location: In the land of ice and snow.	Then we kind've agree, onetime2. Like i says in the initial post, i think most politicians are lying sacks of shit. I just wanted to point out to certain bush supporting individuals who try to gain leverage for bush with kerry's lack of integrity, that their shit, indeed, doth produce a stink as well.

03-18-2004, 02:21 PM	#15 (permalink)
Tomservo Crazy Location: Los Angeles, CA	Onetime2- In your generalization you ignore my entire point, that Gray Davis was kicked out of office for doing precisely what you claim we allow politicians to get away with. Davis hid the truth about the deficit, and when it came out, the folks went crazy and booted him out. Granted, the recall was supported by rich Right-wingers, but the vote wasn't close when it hit the ballot. Folks were pissed off. Ironically, all the problems plaguing California (Deficit spending, energy costs, unemployment, so on) also plague America, and Bush is still firmly in office, while Gray might as well have been the Devil.