Kadath

A conservative friend of mine explained it thusly: The war in Iraq was about preventing muslim extremists from getting WMD. Saddam wasn't crazy enough to attack us with the WMD he was manufacturing, but he would have sold them to extremist groups to use against us in terror attacks. He also admitted that the CIA had some intelligence failures, but "let's not make a big deal of it."

Personally, I'm sold on that spin.

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Bookman

This is a good example of how the administration should explain things rather than fear-mongering.
If GWB came out and said that we sold Saddam the weapons and now we believe he intends on selling them to terrorists...the country would most likely be behind him.

onetime2

No doubt terrorists "won" in Spain.

This is a new era for terrorism.

Past terrorist attacks have been unsuccessful in bending the targets to their will. Previous attacks were either ignored or they fortified the victims against the terrorists. To my knowledge this is the first modern day case of a terrorist attack successfully forcing the change they want from the victim country/group.

This is a historically significant event that gives new life to terrorism.

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Strange Famous

No, this is a vistory for peace, this is for a victory for democracy, and a lesson to all world leaders that you cannot take your country into a war that the people do not want to fight.

And I really so no reason to doubt that this was Eta as of yet, it bears all the hallmarks of an Eta attack.

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stevie667

i agree with that post, except the victory bit, that has yet to be seen.

onetime2

A victory for peace? Yeah I'm sure the terrorists will now go back to their peaceful lives and never disturb anyone ever again.

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Superbelt

It was at least a victory for democracy. It is the Spaniards country and they can vote how they want, regardless of any driving factors. Noone held a gun to their head as they went to the voting booths.
So, you don't have to like the outcome, you aren't Spanish. They have made a lifestyle choice that changes the direction they have previously been in. Good for them.

This also sort of mirrors the situation where bush, after 9/11, pulled out all the US troops in Saudi Arabia. Did you accuse george w bush of pandering to terrorists when he did that?

onetime2

I hold no bad feelings about the Spanish election result. They are perfectly within their rights to choose their leader. I am also perfectly within my rights to point out that their choice is the first example that I know of where an act of terrorism achieved its results.

As far as Bush pulling troops out of Saudi Arabia, the troops in Saudi Arabia were there to enforce the no fly zone in Iraq. There's not much point to them being there when there's no longer a no fly zone to enforce. Further, the pullout was not in direct response to a bombing and was certainly not a capitulation to terrorists.

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Mojo_PeiPei

I don't get it, we still have troops in Saudi Arabia.

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Bookman

How can you be certain that the election didnt go: 1. as planned, 2. as rigged, or 3. As the US & allies wanted it to go; after this bombing.

Basically you are saying that the Spainish election results are a dissapointment...who are you, we or GWB to feel this way?

onetime2

The polls certainly seemed to indicate that the ruling party would retain power. Then the bomb went off. Of course we can't know for sure that the original polls were right, but there certainly seems to be more evidence that this analysis is true than the belief that the election was not altered because of the bombing.

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Bookman

Unless the new government is in ca-hoots with the terrorists there is no way one can link this bombing to being a terrrorist victory.

Furthermore..the term terrorists has been generalized.
These could have been terrorists who wanted Spainiards to get out & vote..and they scared them into it..who knows.

Spain w/drawing fro Iraq is not a victory.

Pacifier

no, i think this bombing just brought some thoughts about the current gov back. they repeated a lot of errors they already made before (lying to their own people, and i brought back the iraq war), so the attacks just refreshed some memorys.

depends of what you think terrorism wants. Do you really believe that alkaida believed the WTC attack would bring the US down?
Terrorsim has always won so far. the goal of terror is fear, the goal is to attention for their own cause. and the WTC attack brought them a lot of attention. And for fear...well ask yourself.

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Halx

Ok.. so... terrorists won...


what are you gonna DO about it?

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stevie667

i figured get drunk and blow a few countries up...again.

Lebell

You want my real answer?

Continue to prepare for if/when TSHTF in the US, so at least I and my family have a reasonable chance to survive.

How I'll react when those who say, "we deserved this" show up at my door asking for help, I haven't decided yet.

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archer2371

Wow, just wow. This was not primarily ETA, at least, they didn't carry out the attacks. They might have passed some info on to al Qaeda, but they certainly weren't major players in this attack. ETA doesn't go for quantity, they go for quality, they almost always go for high government officials. If they do have bombs, they call before they go off to announce that they want some demands, ETA always wants some sort of concession, sort of what almost always drove the Baader-Meinhof Gang, we do this, we let the hostages go, you give us stuff. No, this definitely has all the hallmarks of al Qaeda, mass bombings killing a great deal of people and all within a few minutes of each other. stevie, I want to know where you got that 90% of the American people were against going into Iraq, if I remember correctly, the highest percentage was around 45-50% with most polls putting it around 35-40% and some undecideds/don't cares. Yes, the terrorists have had a small victory, but as long as we continue to stand firm, they will not win this war, I myself will die before I see my country in fear of anybody who dares to kill my fellow citizens.

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james t kirk

Wow, quite the interesting discussion.

No offense, but I see it quite simply....

The Spanish decided that it wasn't fucking worth it.

That is, Iraq, might as well be on the moon as far as your average Spaniard goes. All that being part of the coalition of the coerced got Spain was a lot of innocent people blown up.

The Spanish looked at it quite objectively

1. Iraq was NEVER a threat to Spain. Hell, Iraq wasn't even a threat to the USA.

2. Being part of the American led coalition has alienated Spain from the rest of Europe.

3. Spain is moving towards becoming part of the European Union which is up and coming. They will gain more by being in the same room with Germany, France, and Russia then they will with the USA.

4.Fighting in Iraq has gained Spain nothing, only innocent lives killed.

5. Is Iraq and American oil interests worth it?

6. Spainiards were overwhelmingly opposed to a war in the first place.


The whole damn thing (Iraq) is spirally down into the ground. The US will be left to sort out the mess itself shortly. Both Britain and Australia are sure to see changes in their government as a result of Iraq. Even George Bush might taste defeat if he can't contain this better.

It's turning into a quagmire.

Interesting to note, that public sentiment never seems to support a pre-emptive war after all.

stevie667

i agree with you there JTT.
this 'war' has probably done more to destabalise international relations that any terrorist action could have ever done.

kutulu

The terrorists won on 9-11. They won because they have many of us Americans living in fear. They won because as a result the Primate in Chief signed the Patriot Act. Our freedom of speech and privacy rights are what I think made us great. You could say what you want and not have to worry about big brother looking over you shoulder. Sadly, this isn't the case any more.

They won because they got us to change the way we live our lives.

Tomservo

I second Kutulu 100%. To say the 9/11 terrorists have failed is ridiculous- 3,000 folks died, the markets failed, companies went bankrupt, we've got the Patriot Act and impending internet privacy regulations, and you can't jump a plane from Fresno to Orange County without being considered a threat to mankind.

Sadly, the terrorists won- we have more enemies than ever, there is no TRUE plurality in our country, and the administration in power doesn't see fit to level with us on the issues we're speaking of. New World Order indeed....

Halx

Don't give into the fear.. life goes on.

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Halx

considering your location, lebell, you have hardly anything to worry about

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Lebell

That is, of course, part of the strategy.

But it would be foolish to think that terrorists will stick to major urban areas.

Over New Years, it was revealed that they were targeting some small middle American town (I forget in which state) for just that reason.

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archer2371

^Rappahanock Virginia, I remember the stink the local NOVA news made about it. Honestly though, just be aware and report suspicious activities to the local authorities, they can handle it better than you can. Unless of course, you're sixate and a big motherfucker who could probably look at a terrorist and make him cry. *lightbulb* That's it!!!! We send sixate wherever we need to and have him deal with it, that would solve all of our problems. I don't know why we didn't think of this before...

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Halx

yeah, but they were revealed.. all plans down the drain

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Lebell

Umm, yes.

One plan was uncovered.

You believe they have given up?

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stevie667

90% of spanish, not americans.

Bookman

Even you dont know who "THEY" are.
You only know what the government influenced media tells you.

SLM3

Anyone else find it interesting that a bomb that kills a lot of people, coupled with a few other bombs that go off near or at the same time, is all that is needed for people here to say it reeks of Al-Qaeda? I think Al-Qaeda caused that fender bender. I think Al-Qaeda made my bread go stale. Sour milk? Probably Al-Qaeda.

Anyone else curious as to whether or not Al-Qaeda is even half the all-evil, all-encompassing, world wide organization we make it out to be?

They sure are a good group of guys to pull out everytime you need to scare the shit out of people, no doubt.


SLM3

gibingus

indeed, they are conveniently shadowy in a wag the dog type of conspiracy thought.

you only stand to gain politically from terrorism if you claim it as your own. i remember back in the seventies when dozens of groups would rush forward to claim responsibility for terrorist attacks, and we had to sort out who was really guilty. not so much the case anymore, huh?

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Yakk

Those that support Bush did indeed lose the spanish election. If you assume the world is divided between "Those that Support Bush" and "The Terrorists", then the terrorists won. =p

As an aside, does anyone have a primary source for those pre-election polls? Everyone makes vague references to them, but I haven't seen one single number, or source.

I've heard that the ruling party was going to win handily, and I've heard that the ruling party and the victorious opposition where within a the margin of victory of each other, and I've heard that the number of people who showed up to vote was way higher than usual: basically those leaning towards the opposition where more likely to show up than in the past....

But, I haven't seen a single hard number or source or citation.

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archer2371

Now THAT I'll believe. Sorry, I think I read your post too fast.

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"Hey Grif, Chupathingy...how bout that? I like it...got a ring to it."

"I have no earthly idea what it is I just saw, or what this place is, or where in the hell O'Malley is! My only choice is to blame Grif for coming up with such a flawed plan. Stupid, stupid Grif."