Stare At The Sun

First off, its SIEG Heil.

Now, my input on this subject will be rather..different, and will probably be edited. However, it is what I believe.

I find it odd honestly how people do forget about a lot of the good things that Hitler did. Now, that in and off itself is a very controversial statement, however, it is true. Hitler did bring Germany out of the post WWI depression era, and created millions of jobs for the German people, before the war started, unemployment was very limited, and he did unify the people in a way that prior to Hitler was unthinkable. The war he waged was one of pure bloodlust, however, I personally believe that "the real horror" of what Hitler did is vastly overexagerated. I do not believe that 6 million Jews, gypsies, homosexuals, and blacks were killed. That number doesn't even come close to being realistic.

Hitler was a conquer, a man that wanted to expand his nation, and did so. He, like hundreds of other generals, commanders and leaders before him, did what they had to do. You don't see anyone comparing GWB to Genghis Kahn do you? Of course not. People forget their very past, and what our allies in WW2 did. Stalin killed far more people than Hitler could have dreamed of. All Americans exist where we do today because of European conquers and conquistadors. Warfare is a part of human existence and history.

I think a lot of things have been changed over time, and since the US supports Israel fully, and all the bullshit they stand for and do, then and now, they obviously allow the books to be rewritten to justify the existence of Israel and their bullying of the middle east. Everything I've read on the subject shows how utterly unreasonable the entire Holocaust is, and how much of a ploy it was. Did many Jews die? Yes, however 6 million? No.

The things that Hitler did were wrong, yes, of course, however, they are blown way out of proportion and were simply done for political reasons. and now, that is lost on our generation. History after all, is written by the victors.

Lebell

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU!

Please Donate!

Mojo_PeiPei

Stare at the Sun raises some valid points. Truth be told Genocide aside Hitler would've been a solid leader so long as you didn't rub him the wrong way.

As far as your comments on Israel are, I think that is completely offbase. And what sources would question how many jews/catholics/commie's/cripples/gypsies he killed? I mean realistically the man just about invaded the entire whole of Europe and he devastated the Eastern Bloc pretty bad before the Soviets made it a party. The Fact that Pius' saved nearly 1 million Jews should atest to the fact that those people were heavily targeted.

__________________
To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

Great Scott

Okay so Hitler was not responsible for the death of 6 million Jews, gypsies, homosexuals, and blacks. How many then was he responsible for? 5 million? 1 million? Half a million? How can you put a number on genocide and then call it a political reason? If in the interest of the safety and sanctity of people the government of the United States decided to arrest and summarily execute you and your family for being nazi sympathizers is that okay? Surely it can't be that bad. There's only a few of you, and it was for a purely political reason, right?

I understand that you are trying to invoke political discussion here, but if you try and glaze over the death and suffering invoked by Hitler's regime, you show disrespect to the victims and their families. My objection rests there.

Pacifier

What he did was "hijacking" a whole nation for his war. All the "good" things were just for his war. Unifying a nation with hate is not a good thing. and he brought us friom the post WW1 depression into the post WW2 depression leavinig most parts of germany destroyed and millions dead. most certanly not a good thing.
Without his hate propaganda and his lust for war and bloodshed he would have achieved nothing. so the "good" thing were just preperations for the genocide he was planning.

Since lebell asked to be civil i will not call you a
but lebell also asked to stick to facts, may I ask what facts made you think that 6 mio is not "realistic"

what he wanted was to exterminate cenrtain "races", he wanted to exterminate the russians.

So we should stop evolving in our ethic and moralic views and go back in our caves and hit each other with maces?

__________________
"It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously. I also cannot imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere. Science has been charged with undermining morality, but the charge is unjust. A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death
— Albert Einstein

Lebell

I think the other posters have covered the most important points.

Sure, Hitler brought Germany out of a crushing depression and runaway inflation, but the price was creating a worship cult with himself at the center and by scape-goating jews, Catholics, homosexuals, gypsies and anyone else he considered "undesirable".

That he killed many millions of people is undisputed, except by the diehard anti-semites, the only thing that has changed is the exact "millions", from 3 or 4 up to 10 million.

Much of those numbers come from documentation kept by the Nazi's themselves (they were meticulous about everything).

To me, arguing that the holocaust wasn't that bad is akin to arguing creationism: you can argue and argue, but at the end of the day, the facts just don't add up in your favor.

Actually, it's worse: because at least believing in Creationism doesn't ignore one of the worst horrors of the 20th century by turning a blind eye to it.

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU!

Please Donate!

Tophat665

<b>Stare At The Sun</b>, first off, thanks. Somebody had to do this.

My personal belief is that there are some things that Hitler did well, but not much he did good. What good he did do seems to be an unintended consequence: without Hitler, the US does not become a superpower in the late 40's, and African and Asian independance movements are also set back about 10 years. We don't get Einstein, Goddard, or Von Braun.

I don't know if what you cite as his good accomplishments really are all that good, though. Yes, he took a depressed and fragmented nation in hand and made it vigorous (in the short term with massive deficit spending - there are lots of valid comparisons to be made between Hitler and contemporary leaders) , but he did it at the expense of crushing its nascent and faltering democracy. If that's good, it's only good in that it prevented the communists from doing the same.

Now, like everyone else, I'd really like to know how you figure the genocide death toll was significantly less than 6 million. Sounds like what generally gets called historical revisionism to me. On the other hand, you seem to be accusing the folks who generally level this accusation of the same, which is rich. Don't know if I buy it, though.

Son of Bush is nowhere near that successful, terrifying, effective, charismatic, or intelligent. Nor does he have any generals on par with Subotai. Now Tammerlane: there's a valid comparison to make. But I'll leave it there.

Stipulated

Those are your weakest arguments. I am glad that I have America to live in; I don't exist in a world where it isn't colonized by Europeans, but I still can't help but wonder at the genocide that went on here. I mean, between the diseases, the exploitation, and the outright slaughter, what Europeans as a people did to the Indians is like Stalin, Pol Pot, and Hitler all rolled up into one and multiplied many times. (In fact, what Europeans did to the Indians is very much like what the Paleo-Indians did to most large game species in the Americas - except that game species aren't people.) And war is part of history, but so is rampant disease, oppression of women, and human sacrifice. That something is part of history is usually a better argument for discarding it that excusing it.

__________________
Light a man a fire, and he will be warm while it burns.
Set a man on fire, and he will be warm for the rest of his life.

Bookman

A person's opinion on the factuality (is that a word?) of the depictions of the holocaust should not be met with threats or analysis of the opinion bearer. If a view is that the holocaust was used to further political agendas and the number "6 million" is questioned...leave it @ that. If people question history that is their right and when I see opposition to this kind of questioning I see either a fear of history being changed which forces people to have to question their beliefs OR some people have something to hide.

pocon1

If you are interested in Israel, the only democracy in the Middle East, check out the book by Alan Dershowitz, "The Case For Israel". He lays out the political, ethical, and moral reasons why Israel is a legal country and Why they have committed the actions that they have. I have always been in favor of Israel, but I wanted to see why others support Israel and to read about the legal decisions that went into the U.N. Sanctioning the formation of this country.

Strange Famous

I am very upset that you would actually and explicitly allow people to post anything that comes so close to holocaust denial.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Lebell

I'm not exactly sure why, but if you care to take it to PM's, I'll be glad to explain the reasoning we had last night and to explain TFP policy.

-Lebell

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU!

Please Donate!

SLM3

Well, I'm not exactly surprised the openly Zionist Dershowitz is so in favour of Israel. Have you ever seen him speak? I have and I truly hope you don't take him as even close to an unbiased reporter of what goes on in Israel.

As someone who studies the Middle East, and Israel/Palestince specifically, I would recommend "The Gun and the Olive Branch: The Roots of Violence in the Middle East" by David Hirst. It's considered by most scholars to be the definitive work on Palestine/Israel. If you truly are interested in this subject, you owe it to yourself to pick up this book.


SLM3

pocon1

I did not say that Dershowitz is unbiased. the book is called the case for Israel. However, I think he makes some strong arguments for the country. But I would be interested in seeing the book you recommend.

filtherton

I don't have a problem with it. We're all adults here. I think we should be able to have a rational discussion about anything, even things that may seem as balatantly irrational as holocaust denial.
No one is yelling, everyone is being respectful.

Where else could you have a rational discussion of such a topic without "moral indignity" ruining any kind of productive discourse than on a well moderated forum?

mml

It may be true that Hitler did many "good" things and that the more disturbing parts of his era have been overstated (I am not an expert), but I honestly fail to see the need by some people to defend him or his legacy. I believe it is generally accepted that he participated in some degree of genocide and ultimately drove his country to ruin. It seems to me that Germany would have been better off if a less militaristic, less nationalistic leader arose to help them out of the post WW1 Depression. It appears to me that post-Hitler Germany was much worse off that pre-Hitler Germany.(This is opinion, not hard, researched fact.)

Am I wrong and what is the "need" to defend Hitler?

__________________
Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so."
-Douglas Adams

Strange Famous

This is not a true statement. The number of Jewish dead, murdered by Nazi Germany and her allies, realistically was between 5.6 and 6.5 million. This is a historically provable fact.

German records in the camps themselves record that 4,250,000 Jews were anhiliated in the main concentration and destruction camps themselves. On top of this, we must also include those murdered by the special commando squads, those starved or murdered by ordinary German occupation forces in the ghetto, and Jews killed by random acts of toture.

In the anhilition camps, Jews were gassed to death and burned, in the concentration camps Jews were tortured, worked, starved, killed by epidemic, or by gas chamber, and also killed for entertainment (guards would practise taking pot shots at the Jewish slaves and keep score, a guard in Auschwitz was recorded as inventing the game where he would hang a Jewish prisoner by his arms from a bar, and then try to, from a distance, shoot through his arms to make the priosoner fall... the idea of course was to do it in as few shots as possible.)

The number of 5.7 million Jews anhilated, decided upon at the Nuremburg trials, is supported by subsequent cencus information, by German records themselves, from eye witness accounts, the capacity of the furnaces and chambers and the physical corpses that have been dug up. It is supported by physical remains (such as the seven tons of human hair, 348,820 mens suits, and 836,255 women's dresses and coats found in six storerooms discovered by the liberators of Auschwitz).

If we admit that Hitler was, if he was not at the start, a terrible general, who sentenced 100,000's of his own troops to death through insanity and incompetence, if we understand that Hitler, by the end, had genuinely come to believe that he could win battles by an effort of his own will, if we acknowledge that Hitler was a paedophile, a racist, an incompetent bungler, that he lead his own nation into a complete destruction of its national identity, that his own actions led to his nations abject defeat and humiliation at the hands of the allies... when we understand all this things, and the reality of the holocaust, this makes any good Hitler achieved (for example, helping design the Volkswagen Beetle) irrelevant and meaningless.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Bookman

So how do you get down to the bottom of such a debate?
Just believe what the next person tells you? Just believe what is published?

Discussing history & politics is so very futile, frustating and enlightening.

pocon1

to SLM3, I just looked it up on Amazon.com, and I see that David Hirst used to write for the UK's The Guardian. The Guardian is known to carry certain political agendas, so I expect that a writer for them would carry similar politcal agendas. If you have any truly nonpartisan works to suggest, then I would like to hear them, otherwise make sure that you mention that certain authors carry biases when they write your suggested books.

Lebell

As with any historical event where we have to rely on other people's witness, you look at the facts presented and the sources and make your own reasoned judgement.

In my own case, I think there is overwhelming evidence that the holocaust occured and that about 6 million people were murdered by Hitler.

But that doesn't mean that other people will not adopt an irrational conclusion.

In that case, you simply stick to the facts that convinced you in the first place and present them the next time the discussion arises and trust that reasonable people will come to the same conclusion you did.

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU!

Please Donate!

Great Scott

Bookman, I don't know how you saw a threat in what I wrote. How is it right for someone to question history and to just leave it at that. If you read my post, I was not questioning Stare at The Sun's version of history, just asking if it really made a difference in the long run. I think you misinterpreted both my intent and my point....

Bookman

To preempt...above you can see that I have expended most of my brain power thinking this one out...so forgive me.
I didnt really mean you threatened anyone, but the reference to Nazi sympathizers and persecuting them made me think that anyone who questions/challenges can be dealt a serious counter-attack. Sorry if I got it all wrong.

Stare At The Sun

I'm saying that the United States the UN and the Jews blew them way out of proportion to gain favor for Israel post WW2.

Now, as I said before, I am NOT denying that the holocaust happened, however, I do believe that the number did not reach 6 million killed for the following reasons.

First off. If a Jewish family lived in Germany pre WWII, moved, ran, or left germany/surrounding area's, and did not come back post WWII, they were counted in the Holocaust figures. Hundreds of thousands of these cases happened. The number in Poland alone reached 700,000.

You say that the Germans had kept meticulious plans for the gassing of the Jews. I want you to show me one of those documents that was made before the war ended. David Irving a very well known historian has been qouted as saying that he has never come across any document ordering the "Final Solution".

Also, please consider the size of the concentration camps, and the size of the "Gas chambers", many figures indicate that it would have taken up to 68 years to gas 6,000,000 Jews. Also, where are the bodies? You can say they were all burned, however, surely, atleast some gassed bodies would have survived. The bodies you see were the ones that died from starvation, and those did not number anywhere near 6,000,000.

http://www.codoh.com/thoughtcrimes/PORT2LEU.HTML

This test was also done by the Polish Government, and no traces were found.

Simply put, I do not believe that there is enough evidence to support 6 million people being killed.

I am not denying that yes, some were, and I am also not denying that it wasn't a tragedy. It was. However, I believe that the Holocaust was blown out of proportion by the Jews in order to gain worldwide sympathy, and reparations(as they do, in the hundreds of billions per year) for Israel.

Strange Famous

The gas used in the chambers was called, I think Xylon B. Eye witnesses reported that the canisters were stamped "for the destruction of parasites"

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Stare At The Sun

Perhaps you didn't read the Leuchter report.

Leuchter has written, "Categorically, none of the facilities examined at Auschwitz, Birkenau or Lublin could have supported, or in fact did support, multiple executions utilizing hydrogen cyanide, carbon monoxide or any other allegedly or factually lethal gas."

Pacifier

Leuchter...I knew that name would pop up....
how can someone believe in the nonsense this self proclaimed engineer and "specialits for execution devices" writes?!

He lied at court, he claimed the direcor of the Auschwitz memorial had given him some documents, the director denies that.

He is a damn Nazi, he has some very good connections to the german NPD, the Nazis party

more:
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/l/leuchter-fred/
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/l/...uchter-01.html

Oh and David Irving....
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/i/irving-david/

Leuchter is a liar, using his "report" as a "proof" is crazy

__________________
"It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously. I also cannot imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere. Science has been charged with undermining morality, but the charge is unjust. A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death
— Albert Einstein

ARTelevision

Strange Famous, I appreciate your well-considered research on this and also the effort of those who are not revisionists regarding this well-established historical series of events.
Thanks.

__________________
create evolution

Lebell

zyklon B.

Anyway, I've read those documents before SATS, and they've been refuted to my (fairly analytical) mind quite satisfactorily.

The "gentlemen" have also been thoroughly discredited.

edit to add: Also my thanks to Pacifier for those links. I knew they existed, but I just haven't seen them for awhile so I forgot where they were.

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU!

Please Donate!

SLM3

Hirst has spent decades IN the Middle East, reporting. He's banned by 6 Arab countries as well. He's a calls it as he sees it kinda guy, which is why he's been attacked equally by both sides in this conflict. This book is one that prides itself on its dependance upon sources to back up everything, and it shows. There's little room to preech. Again, I think you'd do well to read it.


SLM3

Seaver

Sorry for the thread jack but I COULDN'T leave this one alone.

Seriously, how much of a success do you need?

1) We successfully fought and won two wars in completely different geographic and political areas at once and completely obliterated the opposition... at the same time.

2) In Iraq we conquered more territory in the shortest amount of time than any army in the history of history. Yes, no person or army has ever advanced as quickly as the US military did in the 2nd Gulf War.

Now you can say what you will about the war in Iraq and Afghanistan is not over, but at the same time we're not killing entire cities, we're not raping the women and killing the men/children. Actions like that are what kill the moral and integrity of a conquored people. They were too scared to fight because they knew that not only they, but everyone they've ever known would be put to the sword.

How can you honestly say that the fastest advances, most one sided victories, and most effective army in the history of history is not at absolute least on par with any of the Khans?

Ustwo

SLM do you think you are unbiased?

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

losthellhound

Wow, this has to be the most dangerous post on TFProject I've ever seen.. I'll try to be carefull

- I can't, sorry. I wrote out alot, but I already feel like I'm beating against a brick wall. This isn't politics, this is someone defending an evil the likes of which we haven't seen in a long time, and hopefully we won't ever again. This is someone defending the machinations that almost destroyed several cultures, Jewish, and Gypsy to name two, and brought the world to the first brink of nuclear war.

I would like to state however that I'm surprised that this thread wasn't killed days ago. TFproject has always been about bringing people together, and learning from each other.. This fails both horribly

__________________
"Life is possible only with illusions. And so, the question for the science of mental health must become an absolutely new and revolutionary one, yet one that reflects the essence of the human condition: On what level of illusion does one live?"
-- Ernest Becker, The Denial of Death

SLM3

Ust do you think anyone is unbiased?



SLM3

theusername

I suppose 9/11 was a plot by Jews to gain support against Arab country's too right?

This simply devastates me that people actually dont believe what is so true and documented by the Nazis themselves. Take a visit to Washington D.C. and go to the Holocaust Museum, it'd do you good.

I simply dont know what to say to this but I could show you pictures of my relatives that were killed there, if that would help you believe this wasnt exaggerated.

Ted Bundy was a nice guy doesnt anybody remember all the good in his life and I bet the amount of woman he killed was way overrated. (note sarcasm)

Lebell

Please watch the sarcasm.

So far, this has stayed on track and is an adult conversation.

(Which honestly I'm very proud of the members of TFP for doing, given the volatile nature of the topic.)

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU!

Please Donate!

shakran

here are my thoughts, and this one's long:

Hitler's primary goal was power. If planting flowers and kissing butterflies were the fastest way for him to get complete power, he'd have done it. So let's look at what Hitler saw for his opportunity for power:

Germany was in a depression. Not just a financial depression, but a country-wide emotional depression. They got their asses thoroughly kicked in WWI. They had crap for a military, crap for money, people were carting wheelbarrows full of cash around just to buy a loaf of bread. In short, life in Germany sucked. Bigtime.

Enter Hitler. What's the best way for him to get power? Find someone to blame the country's troubles on. (remember that statement, it's very important later). Hitler picked the Jews primarilly. The reason we're in this mess is that the Jews put us there. It's not YOUR fault that your life sucks, and it's not your NEIGHBOR's fault. It's the fault of the Jew.

The German people, downtrodden and miserable, quickly snapped to this idea of having a scapegoat. Here's someone to blame! It enabled them to feel better about themselves - to have a more positive outlook on their lives. It served as a drug for the country. And now that they had someone to blame, here was a man who was leading the fight against these terrible Jews who had caused all this trouble.

People began following him because he seemed to be a way out of the terrible situation they were in. And remember, he didn't start off right away throwing Jews into the gas chambers. He built up to it nice and slow, letting the people get used to each additional sanction/atrocity against the Jews, all the time reminding them that it was the Jew that put them in a terrible mess and it was Hitler who, by taking care of this Jew problem, was leading them out of it.

See, I think that too much time has been spent saying that Hitler was evil. I mean, yeah, we KNOW that. The real question isn't why Hitler wanted to kill Jews. That's explainable by both his psychopathology and his lust for power. The REAL question is why the HELL did millions of Germans allow it to happen!

Let's shed a little light on it by looking at events in our own country's history. Back in the early days of the cold war we had a huge red scare in this country. Anti-communist sentiment was running high thanks to the fearless fight against the communists lead by a Wisconsin senator named Joe McCarthy. He told us the communists were everywhere and were responsible for trying to destroy us. We had to watch out for them, and we had to report anyone who might be a communist. Even Edward R. Murrow was accused of being a communist. And people started following him. They flocked behind him very much like the Germans flocked behind Hitler. Why? Because here was someone blaming a specific group for all the problems they faced. It's much easier to blame others than to fix the problem. McCarthy and Hitler were cut from the same cloth -they both had an insatiable hunger for power, and they both used essentially the same tactics to get it. I and many others are firmly convinced that it was only our system of government, with its checks and balances, that prevented McCarthy from gaining more power and eventually becoming a United States Hitler. Germany didn't have that advantage, however, which allowed Hitler's meteoric rise to power.

By the way it's interesting to look at what's happening today. Our leaders today are asking us to flock to them so they can fight the terrorists, a group of people who share common traits with the Communists and Jews of old - those traits being that there is a nearly universal fear throughout the country of them, and that it is very easy for the government to make them out to be a much larger threat than they actually are.

Hitler used the Jews as a vehicle to gain power by making his people terrified of them. Note that Hitler was careful to paint the Jews as a threat even when his oppression had rendered them incapable of being a threat even had they wanted to be.

McCarthy used the Communists to gain power by making his people terrified of them. Note that McCarthy was also careful to paint the communists as a threat even though that threat was nebulous and impossible to quantify.

George Bush Jr. is using the Terrorists to gain power by making his people terrified of them. Note how Bush is making the terrorists out to be a threat, and is using that threat as the main platform of his reelection campaign. That frankly represents a conflict of interest - after all, if he's depending on the people being afraid of terrorsts to guarantee his reelection, he does not have very much incentive to actually eradicate the terrorists does he? The far smarter thing to do would be to attack irrelevant people who are widely known as evil people, call them terrorists, and therefore try to make it LOOK like he is fighting the terrorists when in fact he cannot defeat the terrorists if he wants to use them as leverage to get reelected. That, by the way, is one of the reasons why he went after Iraq.

So what's the point of all this? It's that Hitler manipulated his people in order to accomplish his goal - gaining absolute power. I find it difficult to fully blame the Germans for falling for it, as the citizens of the United States have fallen for it as well, under McCarthy and today under Bush.



Man, that was long.

Mojo_PeiPei

But the fact is there are Terrorists out there. Fact is that their actions (remember the terrorists, that do exist) have shaped our policy. Fact is they are still a threat, unlike the Jews who never were, and hey historically the commie's were threats, I don't know so much domestically. Fact is they are still plotting against us and our interests actively. I'm not scared under Dubya, he has shown me that he can be/is proactive in protecting me and my interests, big difference then McCarthy or Adolf.

__________________
To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

irateplatypus

history forgets that McCarthy was right more often than he was wrong.

i digress...

it appears that a lot of confusion on this thread is created by the bludgeoning of the word "good." When Stare at the sun cites examples of Hitler's "good" accomplishments... i think it can be argued that the word is unfit for the discussion.

i believe the more effective word is "powerful." hitler did accomplish many economic wonders, but it was all done w/the purpose of building Germany's war machine. In turn, the war machine was used to make unprovoked attacks and create an atmosphere of persecution for minorities. The ends corrupted the means in this case. Good is being used in lieu of powerful, which leads to people interpreting that as "good=the opposite of evil."

__________________
If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.

~ Winston Churchill

Pacifier

I agree with most of what you have written, but this statement above sound like Hitler never really hated the Jews, it sound a bit like they just were "useful"

But If you look at his book "mein kampf" you will see that Hitler personally hated the Jews, he didn't just used them, he wanted to exterminate them. And for this goal he "hijacked" germany just with the methods you described above.

Oh and a small quote from Göring:
"Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger."

I think, when looking to the current situations, the last part is quite funny....

__________________
"It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously. I also cannot imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere. Science has been charged with undermining morality, but the charge is unjust. A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death
— Albert Einstein

skier

I would like to add to this thread that at the time, a large percentage of the economy was involved with jewish affairs. I'm not saying they exerted any control over the economy as a group, but even before Hitler rose to power, the Jews were seen as a "rich people".
When Jewish people became persecuted by the Nazi Regime, much of that material wealth came into the hands of the Government and some to the people. This obviously will make for a strong economy when the money that used to belong to 12 million people now belong to 8 million. This was Hitler's Blood Money where he bought his war machine.

edit: i agree with tophat below- The Khans were truley impressive empire builders.

__________________
"Asking a bomb squad if an old bomb is still "real" is not the best thing to do if you want to save it." - denim

Tophat665

Do it with horses and sabers, everywhere from Hungary to China and Siberia to India, and then I'll be impressed. I'll PM you with the rest. This really isn't what this thread is about.

__________________
Light a man a fire, and he will be warm while it burns.
Set a man on fire, and he will be warm for the rest of his life.