tecoyah

It would seem to me, This country could solve several problems by legalizing certain drugs, and prostitution. Drug use and the oldest profession will never go away in the forseeable future. Wouldn't it make more sense to quit spending billions of dollars in a futile attempt to stop them.
We could instead legalize and control them both, while placing a heavy tax on each. This could ensure quality and health of product as well as remove some of the primary motivators for violent crime. Between the costs saved on the "war on drugs" and the increased tax income, we would likely kill the deficit in a few years as well.
Added benefits would include a much lower prison population, less need for state funds to support an already overburdened court system, regulatory control over health and wellfare aspects, and reliable statistics on just how prevelant these issues actually are, just to name a few.
It should be clear that prohibition was a failure once, I fail to see how we can expect it to work now.

I, personally, do not partake in either of these options. But I can see the need for something to be done.

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Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

theusername

I never have never will do drugs. I never have never will pay for a prostitute. Saying that, this is a great idea.

The argument against this is making it legal encourages people to do it, which is kind of true.

As for me personally I dont have a problem with it. Atleast the money these dirtbags pay will go to the Government instead of some kind of terrorist/mafia organization.

filtherton

How much money would the american taxpayers save by abandoning the misguided wars on drugs and prostitution? How much could we produce be turning around and taxing the shit out of these activities?
The answers speak for themselves.

Zander

The drug war, including all profits from tax we would receive, is costing Americans about 500 BILLION a year.

So, I think all consentual crimes should not be crimes.

Paq

"Ain't nobody's business if you do"

600 page book...takes about 2 hrs to read...get it, love it, learn it

seriously, it has some of the best arguments i've ever seen against "consensual crimes"

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Bill O'Rights

Welcome to the Libertarian Party, tecoyah. We're damned glad to have ya.

This is one of the planks of the Libertarian Platform. Unfortunately, however, it is often the only one that people focus on. This is propogated by threatened Republicans, and Democrats, in an attempt to discredit Libertarians, by painting us as the party of, by and for...drug users. Yeah...right. Your own post echos my sentiments, as well as most Libertarians that I know, extremely well. I'll get off my soap box now.

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"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

Boo

Make it legal and I will open the Nude Hash House in Alaska. Make the Bush Company look like a newbie bar.

Free nachos with every bowl. Sleep on the premises with one of the Hash House Nudies.

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Back button again, I must be getting old.

Bookman

Good thread.
Couple of points I would like to make.
Not all drug money goes to terrorists and the mafia (stopping drugs from getting into the USA is not that hard..someone else is getting paid).
Secondly, I am anti-drugs, but I dont believe anything which grows naturally from the ground is a drug.
Third and lastly...you can pay someone for a massage, psychotherapy or a pedicure, yet you cant pay someone to have sex with them.

Tomservo

At my liberal heart, I cannot argue with these points.

As a father, I cannot bear the idea that my children will grow up in a society where becoming a prostitute is an acceptable idea, or becoming a crack addict is just another "personal choice". If two individuals decide between themselves to have a duel to the death, does that make it "okay"? It's their choice, but the world we live in does not allow us to make that decision (legally), and rightfully so.

Fact is, people are stupid and life is hard. When you give them "easy" outs like drugs and prostitution, does that make them harder workers, intent on improving themselves, or does it simply provide another outlet to divorce yourself from principled behavior? I'd rather not live in a country with no principles, and if the USA decides to become that way, I'd just as soon relocate as play along.

Granted, I was raised in a family of sexual dysfunction and rampant drug and alcohol use, and perhaps that alters my perception... or maybe it's the marijuana.

(Just kidding)
(About the marijuana)

Any Republicans can back me up on this?

santafe5000

If they legalized both and put appropriate Luxary taxes on them, we could retire the national debt rather quickly. I can not see spending all the money to stop prostitution and then have it legal in one state. Also, i don't do drugs, have no desire to do drugs, but with the wide spread use of it, put a heffty tax on it and make it legal. With all the press and studies that show cigarettte smoking causes health problems, medically, why are cigarettes not ilegal? Turn about is fair play. Let those who want to indulge in life altering substances have them, just tax the hell out of them.

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When all else fails, QUIT.

Lebell

Set up "Coke" machines in Manhattan, San Francisco, Hollywood, Burbank, Culver City, etc. with a heavy tax and we could wipe out the national debt in a few years.

Maybe one outside the "Betty Ford" clinic too...

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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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Lebell

Congratulations, you are reaching the point in life where you figure out that cozy "intellectual" concepts just don't always jibe with the reality we want to live in.

It is one thing for a 20 something intellectual to talk about how the world would be a better place if drugs were legalized, corporations outlawed, blah blah, but as you've astutely observed, it's another thing when your child becomes an addict or when there are no employers to give you a job.

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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Strange Famous

People's children become addicts now, thats the whole point - criminializing drugs isnt working, because they are still so easy for anyone to get. However, the quality is poorer, they cost more and often drive people to crime, and violent and organised crime becomes involved in their distribution.

A child should not be allowed to inject heroin anymore than they should be allowed to drink vodka - the fact is in the real world it is very hard to prevent them from doing either if they are determined to.

A consenting adult should be free to do anything to themselves that they wish, the state and the community does not have the right to tell me I cannot harm myself.

There is also no sane argument I can understand against prostitution being legal - again, it is widespread and the laws against it dont work - legalising it makes it safer, protects the people in it (by installing health and safety standards) and removing violent pimps from the equation.

If two free and consenting individuals wish to exchange money for sexual services, why in the hell does the state have the right to tell them they cannot? A woman (or a male prostitute) owns her own body, and she can sell it to anyone she wants to.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

dy156

Though I have strong libertarian tendencies, I don't think legalizing hard drugs would be a good idea. I think a distinction needs to be made. Crack, meth, LSD and heroin are really bad, and will ruin lives. Small amounts of pot, sold by Kraft instead of some kid are another story. Kids smoking pot and sitting around eating doritos and watching cartoons are safer than kids cruising around drinking beer and looking for a fight, or women, or both. Plus, legalizing all drugs would have some serious effects on doctors, pharmacists, etc... That would not be good for the nation.
Let's hear it for the pragmatic libertarians!

Strange Famous

As far as I am aware, LSD doesnt have any serious physicsal side effects.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

dy156

taken from http://www.emedicine.com/emerg/topic911.htm

However, Crazy people wanting to kill themselves or others is more dangerous than kids watching cartoons and eating Doritos.

pan6467

There are good arguments on both sides pf this issue.

One thing you learn in some of the addiction counselling courses I'm taking is the percentage of addicts is primarily steady. The only increases and decreases you see are in good and bad economic times. (However, we now have legal prescription drugs for any ailment you can dream of and websites offering you sales of percocets, darvocets, vicadin, oxys, anything you want or need with no prescription necessary. (Maybe Limbaugh should have dealt with them instead of Dr. shopping and his cleaning staff.)

So legalizing probably won't affect the rates of addiction. It could however affect trafiic and work place accidents. But so can percs and darvs and vikes and all are "legal". The only difference between legal and illegal drugs is that legal drugs have BIG BIG Corporations behind them (Parke-Davis, Merck, Bayer, Johnson and Johnson, Pfizer and so on.). While illegal drugs the profits mainly benefit underground groups that will push drugs to kids and buy and sell guns with the profits. Ask the Bloods and Crips.

Personally, it is a matter of choice. Being an addict (compulsive gambler five years clean march 20th), I can honestly say I didn't become one because gambling was legal. I became one because just like 95.5% of all addicts I wanted an escape and to be numb. Until we can figure out how we can get people to be able to deal with life, there will always be drugs and there will always be addiction. Therefore you may as well legalize it and put the money into government and out of theunderworld.

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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

tecoyah

Dy156.......the effects listed could just as easily describe alcohol, or diet pills....why is one illegal and the other giving people longer prison terms than rape?

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Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

ARTelevision

I don't drink or use drugs and wouldn't consider visiting a prostitute and never have.

Something like this is best decided by popular referendum and representative government. Whatever "the people" want.

As always though, it's too bad the people are swayed by mass culture.

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filtherton

The fact that some drugs are illegal hasn't stopped anyone i know from developing a chemical addiction. I doubt legalized drugs would up the addiction rate significantly since the law is meaningless when it comes to preventing addiction.

Bookman

TV, Music, the WWW, Porn, Tobacco, Alchohol & the overall pressures to achieve the American Dream are more harmful than prostitution or marijuana/any other natural mind enhancer.

Hard drugs I am not supportive of them.
If they legalized prostitution how would they stop people from working off the books? Here is the systems biggest problem...sex (in the case women) is the most natural product which has an everlasting demand. What will they do? Sew girls @ birth until they get a hooker license?
Marijuana...anyone can grow it....there may be more of a demand for SEEDS than weed.
The GOVERNMENT will not be able to make $$ if they are legalized.
The moral arguments against these things are quite juvenile.
If you dont wanna pay for some sex..cool, dont wanna puff some herbs...cool.
Dont try to demoralize the issues.

dy156

This doesn't need to turn into a physical-side-effects-of-LSD thread, but diet pills and alcohol don't sometimes cause "Suicidal or homicidal ideation" See also my post about David on the thread about drugs messing up peoples' lives.

Back on topic, and in response to Bookman, even if there were some that evaded taxes, this is always a possibility. One could grow tomatoes, or put some yeast in grape juice and let it sit there awhile under your bed, and not pay taxes on your "wine" or vegetables. People sell home brewing kits, but Anheiser Busch isn't threatened. There are NO taxes being paid on marijuana or prostitution currently, so it would not really matter if some people were growing their own weed and not reporting times they got paid for sex. Even if some evade taxes, I bet the reduction in costs to our government of not enforcing these crimes, plus the taxes collected would more than offset the cost of government regulation of these new industries, and the tax evaders participating in them.

pocon1

Legalize pot and prostitution. Pot smokers don't tend to beat their kids or drive their car at ninety miles an hour like drunk people do. Watch cops, and see how many people are drunk vs. people stoned on pot. Of course, I don't do wither, but I am less likely to be assaulted by a stoned person than a drunk at the local 7-11.
Prostitution. The oldest profession (you have to have sex to have kids). Legalize it, regulate with testing, get the kids out of it, and lets all have some fun. Its worked for other countries.

KungFuGuy

ok, i'm in total agreement about legalizing drugs and ending the drug war. the arguments you stated have been around for a LONG time, as i found out when i did a paper on it like 5 years ago in high school.

the PROBLEM, is that the drug war has been institutionalized, for lack of a better term. so many ppl depend on the drug war to make a living. Most notably are the police, judges, lawyers, and other people in the legal system. Over half of convicted criminals in correctional facilities today are from drug related crimes. A lot of people make their living on putting them in there and keeping them in there.

Now, when you take into account that so many lawyers and judges, etc, make there living off of the drug war, and that those ppl most directly involved with the legal system also are in the most direct control of the government, the result you get is a system dependant on itself for its own continuation.

the bottom line is that many people in control have an interest in keeping the drug war going for their own interests.

my dad, a corrections officer (prison guard) is one of those ppl. i mean, he doesn't have control, and his feelings are similar to mine on this issue, but if the drug war ended and half the prison population were let go, they wouldn't need him anymore (probably, he's a sergeant with seniority now...)

another side issue is, if drugs were legalized, do you realize how many lawsuits against the gov't there would be, even if there was a statement they couldn't be sued?

Billy Ocean

Count me in.

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"To live outside the law you must be honest." - Bob Dylan

tecoyah

There are many reasons that make a transition hard, from the current situation to a more sane approach. That does not mean it shouldnt be done. It was very hard to abolish slavery, yet it was done.Any job loss would be more than offset by revenues and regulatory positions, as well as savings from the billions spent now on the war on drugs. We as a society need to set the priorities, not the federal government, unless we decide to forgo our democratic republic in favor of a totalitarian regime.

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Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

KungFuGuy

tecoyah- i was pointing out reasons why people that could start the transition arent doing it. but i agree with what you're saying. should definately be done.

Bob Biter

KungFuGuy,

In Montreal, cops and judges would love nothing more than to stop being forced to go after drug users and focus instead on more serious crimes, such as rape, murder and racketeering. However, since the decriminalization bill didn't go through, they still have to bust their balls and those of people who just want to relax and have a toke. Judges have to deal with case after worthless case of minor possession, which delays judgement of more pressing issues.

Jails and courtrooms losing those charged with what amounts to trivial things would be a good thing, since they would then fill up with those who do the more fucked up shit and actually need to be put there.

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A plan is just a list of things that don't happen.

prb

A short exam:

Which is more likely to endanger a person's health?
a. skateboarding
b. football
c. bronco bull riding
d. motocross racing
e. binge drinking of alcohol
f. chain-smoking cigarettes
g. smoking an occasional joint of marijuana ?

Extra credit: Which of these activities is entirely legal and which are not? Explain the different treatment under law.

saltfish

(Laughs to self...)

saltfish

So, whats good for the voting majority is good for everyone?

Why don't we find out what makes people 'want' to visit prostitutes; what makes them 'want' to do drugs?

-SF

KungFuGuy

very true. i'd just like to add that most violent crime is a result of drug laws. wasn't it in amsterdam that when whey legalized marijuana the rate of violent crimes dropped by more than half of what it was before?

that being said, prisons probably wouldn't "fill up" as much as there would be a whole lot more room for people that actually belong there.

tecoyah

Mostly because we already know.
Drugs and prostitution have been around since man could record such facts.Both sex and drugs release dopamine into the human neuoligical system, and change the chemical composition of the brain temporarily. but that has little to do with the Politics of this thread.

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Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

Phaenx

I hate pot heads, quite a bit, but there is logic to legalizing such things and turning loss into earnings. I think it may be a good idea just for marijuana, alcohol, tobacco, and such. I also am finding it more and more difficult to care about what other people do to themselves, I wish some Americans weren't ignorant, fat, lazy, or drug addicts, but there's not much I can do about it other than attempt to educate them, and I'm sure as hell not going to put out the effort to force anyone to cut it out when they refuse to listen.

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"I went shopping last night at like 1am. The place was empty and this old woman just making polite conversation said to me, 'where is everyone??' I replied, 'In bed, same place you and I should be!' Took me ten minutes to figure out why she gave me a dirty look." --Some guy

Man/Amazing

If congress were to pass something like this we(america) would truly be the center of the world, but to bad they wont be doing it anytime soon. As you probably already know our country has way to many christen values so all this talk about legalizing drugs and prostitution gets thrown out the door.

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Johnny Rotten

I had a discussion once with a woman who truly believed that legalization of prostitution would automagically create a brothel on virtually every urban street corner in the nation, dragging us down into Sodom-and-Gomorrah depredation until we were finally swallowed whole by Hell itself. Her ex-husband also happened to have cheated on her with a hooker, though.

And while legalizing certain drugs may relieve debts both domestic and abroad, it also opens the doors to every street corner hustler with two legs and a mouth. Take a walk around downtown Amsterdam and see if you're not propositioned for extasy, cocaine, and/or LSD about every fifteen minutes. All you have to do is sit down somewhere and let them come to you. It's disheartening. And the same thing would happen here. After all, if the rich American wants to smoke some pot, than maybe he's willing to try something else, enh?

While A-dam is often affectionally painted as a city full of laid-back, reasonable people who don't mind if you want to spark up a fatty or pay for sex, the reality behind their global postcard has some decidedly sharp edges and is populated by desperate foreigners, tacky neon signs, and an air of unsettling unpredictability.

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"The idea that money doesn't buy you happiness is a lie put about by the rich, to stop the poor from killing them." -- Michael Caine

sprocket

I would add my own thoughts to this argument, but they are already articulated so well in the following taken from http://www.cognitiveliberty.org . This doesnt address prostitution, but the same principles could be applied to that issue.

http://www.cognitiveliberty.org/faqs/faq_drugpolicy.htm

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