This is the type of protest that brings down governments - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Strange Famous · 02-20-2004, 02:46 PM

This is not radicals protesting, this is not a student movement, this is not revolutionaries. This is people saying, when inflation is 2%, and the council tax goes up 15% every year (my council tax bill - the tax that pays for local services - is now £1000 a year, out of my salary of £14,000 - I also pay 20% income tax of course, and 17.5% sales tax on everything I buy, and 10% National Insurance tax, and £200 tax a year to drive a car, and £150 tax a year to own a television...) it is unfair.

The people of Britain are rejecting this government, and Blair the liar. They will no longer consent to fund a state, when their hard earned money finds fictitious wars and endless bureaucrats and corruption.

Blair may not be taken down by 2,000,000 peace protestors marching through London, but when 2,000,000 of middle class, middle England refuse to pay these unfair taxes, that take from people REGARDLESS of the ability to pay, then either the government will be replaced, of the entire state will fall.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3506257.stm

Quote:

Pension protest gathers pace

Elizabeth Winkfield was supported at court
Eighty-three-year-old Elizabeth Winkfield stood alone in the dock at Barnstaple magistrates court on Thursday and refused to pay her £114 annual rise in council tax.
But she is far from being a lone voice of dissent, as many pensioners across the country would testify.

Last month, hundreds marched on Downing Street to present a 35,000-strong petition calling for an end to the tax.

Police said there were 600 people but organisers estimated there were 2,000 pensioners calling for a new tax linked to ability to pay.

Elderly people in Aberdeen and Wiltshire continued to argue last week that their pensions are not increasing fast enough to keep up with council tax increases.

But what began as a lobbying campaign has moved into an area unfamiliar to many of the protesters - law-breaking.

Two other Devon pensioners have appeared before magistrates after refusing to pay, both supported by the new pressure group Devon Pensioners' Action Forum.

But the National Pensioners' Convention, which represents pensioners' groups throughout the UK, thinks non-payment is not the answer.

President Joe Brown told BBC News Online he admired Elizabeth Winkfield and appreciated she had generated publicity on the subject.

"But the issue is more involved than saying 'We're just not paying it,' he said.

"The councils need money raised from the tax to fund social services which old people and those on low incomes need."

He said large council tax increases should be met by central government funds and by increasing business rates.

"Pensioners will share their burden through income tax and general taxation, which is based on ability to pay."

The government is currrently reviewing the council tax system, amid speculation it it to replace it with a mixture of income and property taxes.

Any change may come too late to save Miss Winkfield from prison, after she was ordered to pay the £99 she owes and £10 costs.

Outside court, she said: "Even if I was a millionaire I wouldn't pay it."

Other Devon dissenters include retired social worker Sylvia Hardy, 71, from Exeter, who has only paid the increase of 1.7%, equal to her rise in pension.

She is due again before the city magistrates on 25 February but has pledged to go to jail rather than pay.

And David Richardson, 84, of Haytor, has been ordered by magistrates to pay £70.20, plus £30 costs, after withholding the increase in tax from last year.

This anger in Devon is equally evident in other parts of the UK.

Pensioners staged a protest in Aberdeen last week as the north east of Scotland saw the largest council tax rises in the country.

About 50 people took part in a march to voice anger at the 8.6% increase, which was backed by city councillors.

In Wiltshire, more than 200 retired people gathered last week to protest against council tax rises and some even called for a return to the poll tax.

Dostoevsky · 02-20-2004, 06:50 PM

Strange- I certainly agree with you that government shouldn't tax its citizens (subjects?) as heavily as it does. But quite frankly, given the political stances you've taken in previous posts, I'm surprised you are complaining. Would you care to enlighten me regarding your feelings on government provided services and the inherent effect they have on taxes (deficit spending not withstanding)? I guess what I'm asking is how do you expect the government to provide all the things you like without taxing the shit out of you?

You have a fically conservative tone on this thread. Are you fiscally conservative?

nanofever · 02-20-2004, 07:08 PM

Strange Famous is channeling Ustwo, scary.

What is next ?

Lebell joining gun regulation groups ?

Paq · 02-20-2004, 11:21 PM

i don't see how this is channeling UStwo. UStwo would be happy everyone was being taxed equally, whether they can pay or not, Famous is asking for a tax that is based more towards those who can pay and those who can't.

in simplest terms, this is the flat/graduated tax debate.

Ustwo · 02-20-2004, 11:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Paq
i don't see how this is channeling UStwo. UStwo would be happy everyone was being taxed equally, whether they can pay or not, Famous is asking for a tax that is based more towards those who can pay and those who can't.

in simplest terms, this is the flat/graduated tax debate.

Yes and no.

While I think EVERYONE should pay some taxes rich or poor, I would not be happy with everyone being overtaxed, even if it were fair and equal. Taxation itself is the greatest threat to civil liberties there is, even if some here don't understand what the power to tax does.

I think SF just hates Blair and anything bad is another revolution in the works, at least in his mind. Brits have been complaining about the same taxes he is for as long as I can remember, and in the end they don't seem to do anything about it.

Paq · 02-21-2004, 12:42 AM

hey, ustwo, i think i just found something we agree on. I think everyone should pay some taxes as well

i just don't think the poor should pay as much as the rich, since generally, they can't afford to, but i'm all for a tax appropriate to your means. I think Oreilly had an interesting tax plan, national sales tax on everything except "Essentials" of life: food being one, i'm not exactly sure what else would be put in that category as he gets really dodgy there....

I do, however, feel sorry for the brits and several european countries with their tax rates. A german friend of mine was astounded that we bitch about taxes when he gives up more than half his pay to the gov't

ahhh, the fun stuff, huh

Strange Famous · 02-21-2004, 05:53 AM

Utswo, you obviously havent heard of the Poll Tax rebellion in the 90's? The ruling class of our country waited 600 or something years to try and introduce a poll tax again... and when they tried it in the 90's, the British people rejected it... because they felt it was fundamentally unfair that taxation had no basis on the ability to pay. The council tax is a hybrid version of poll tax, community charge and the old property rates... it is unfair, but most of all, it just goes up and up every year - every year I can remember it has gone up WAY above inflation, sometimes 5 times inflation... the government can take whatever proportion of your wages that it wants, and they can spend it however they want, if you protest you are thrown in prison... is this democracy? The unfairness of the council tax is an issue that goes beyond Blair's unpopularity, it is a tax the Conservatives have equal responsibility for historially - the fact that Blair has a very low popularity rating at the moment if just "the final straw" for a lot of people who have felt how unfair this was.

Also, on the lack of british tax protest, do you remember the fuel crisis in 2000? Maybe there was little long term impact, but for a few days at least, the government was reminded how utterly and completely powerless it is when the people find an issue and stand together on it.

Lebell · 02-21-2004, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by nanofever
Strange Famous is channeling Ustwo, scary.

What is next ?

Lebell joining gun regulation groups ?

Highly unlikely

seretogis · 02-21-2004, 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Strange Famous
the government can take whatever proportion of your wages that it wants, and they can spend it however they want, if you protest you are thrown in prison... is this democracy?

Huh? Since when are you against this?

Peetster · 02-21-2004, 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Strange Famous
The ruling class of our country

There's your problem. Move somewhere that doesn't have a 600 year old class system.

Strange Famous · 02-21-2004, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by seretogis
Huh? Since when are you against this?

taxation without democratic consent is never what I have been in favour of. yes, there should be tax, but not on the basis of a unrepresentative body taking what it wants, and spending it on what it wants.

Ustwo · 02-21-2004, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lebell
Highly unlikely

Some day Labell when people speak of 'gun control' the first thing that will come to mind is aim

02-20-2004, 06:50 PM	#2 (permalink)
Dostoevsky Psycho Location: Macon, GA	Strange- I certainly agree with you that government shouldn't tax its citizens (subjects?) as heavily as it does. But quite frankly, given the political stances you've taken in previous posts, I'm surprised you are complaining. Would you care to enlighten me regarding your feelings on government provided services and the inherent effect they have on taxes (deficit spending not withstanding)? I guess what I'm asking is how do you expect the government to provide all the things you like without taxing the shit out of you? You have a fically conservative tone on this thread. Are you fiscally conservative? __________________ Pride is the recognition of the fact that you are your own highest value and, like all of man’s values, it has to be earned. It is not advisable, James, to venture unsolicited opinions. You should spare yourself the embarrassing discovery of their exact value to your listener. Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged

02-20-2004, 07:08 PM	#3 (permalink)
nanofever Huzzah for Welcome Week, Much beer shall I imbibe. Location: UCSB	Strange Famous is channeling Ustwo, scary. What is next ? Lebell joining gun regulation groups ? __________________ I'm leaving for the University of California: Santa Barbara in 5 hours, give me your best college advice - things I need, good ideas, bad ideas, nooky, ect. Originally Posted by Norseman on another forum: "Yeah, the problem with the world is the stupid people are all cocksure of themselves and the intellectuals are full of doubt." Last edited by nanofever; 02-20-2004 at 07:49 PM..

02-20-2004, 11:21 PM	#4 (permalink)
Paq Junkie Location: South Carolina	i don't see how this is channeling UStwo. UStwo would be happy everyone was being taxed equally, whether they can pay or not, Famous is asking for a tax that is based more towards those who can pay and those who can't. in simplest terms, this is the flat/graduated tax debate. __________________ Live. Chris

02-21-2004, 12:42 AM	#6 (permalink)
Paq Junkie Location: South Carolina	hey, ustwo, i think i just found something we agree on. I think everyone should pay some taxes as well i just don't think the poor should pay as much as the rich, since generally, they can't afford to, but i'm all for a tax appropriate to your means. I think Oreilly had an interesting tax plan, national sales tax on everything except "Essentials" of life: food being one, i'm not exactly sure what else would be put in that category as he gets really dodgy there.... I do, however, feel sorry for the brits and several european countries with their tax rates. A german friend of mine was astounded that we bitch about taxes when he gives up more than half his pay to the gov't ahhh, the fun stuff, huh __________________ Live. Chris

02-21-2004, 05:53 AM	#7 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	Utswo, you obviously havent heard of the Poll Tax rebellion in the 90's? The ruling class of our country waited 600 or something years to try and introduce a poll tax again... and when they tried it in the 90's, the British people rejected it... because they felt it was fundamentally unfair that taxation had no basis on the ability to pay. The council tax is a hybrid version of poll tax, community charge and the old property rates... it is unfair, but most of all, it just goes up and up every year - every year I can remember it has gone up WAY above inflation, sometimes 5 times inflation... the government can take whatever proportion of your wages that it wants, and they can spend it however they want, if you protest you are thrown in prison... is this democracy? The unfairness of the council tax is an issue that goes beyond Blair's unpopularity, it is a tax the Conservatives have equal responsibility for historially - the fact that Blair has a very low popularity rating at the moment if just "the final straw" for a lot of people who have felt how unfair this was. Also, on the lack of british tax protest, do you remember the fuel crisis in 2000? Maybe there was little long term impact, but for a few days at least, the government was reminded how utterly and completely powerless it is when the people find an issue and stand together on it. __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas