Mojo_PeiPei

http://www.cnn.com/2004/EDUCATION/02....ap/index.html
I thought that was pretty funny. Not to mention I agree with it. I have friends that are going through school solely because they are minorities, and great you know they should have that chance. I just don't like how there are so few scholarship options for myself (in comparison). Not to mention the State of Minnesota can lick my balls for diminishing my grant money from nearly 2,000 dollars a semester to less then 75 dollars, how convienent that they should review the system the summer I go off to school. God forbid that I should not be penalized because 1) I had some money from a trust account because my brother died in a car accident (which btw is not a substantial amount, wouldn't pay for 4 years of college anywhere except community college) and 2) my single mother who works has an executive assistant is not indebt up to her eye balls. This shit is a travesty.

Back on topic Affirmitive Action sucks balls. Go Whitey.

__________________
To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

sexymama

I think whites have as much reason to be proud of our heritage as blacks do theirs, asians theirs, etc. I have often said that the white male population is currently at a disadvantage in our society and that it is facing reverse discrimination. As long as the scholarship, or any group for that matter, doesn't go overboard by saying whites are better than others, then I say bravo.

BTW, my son once responded to a Hispanic pride group being formed at his school by forming a White pride group. He was told he couldn't do that. When he pointed out the prejudice in this, the other group was also told they could not be school sanctioned. I supported him 100% too.

__________________
If you can go deeply into lovemaking, the ego disappears. That is the beauty of lovemaking, that it is another source of a glimpse of god

It's not about being perfect; it's about developing some skill at managing imperfection.

losthellhound

I read this this morning as well. Its an interesting way of showing displeasure... BUT, it won't be received well. Remember the affirmative action cookie stand??

I mean the following in no way racist, but it may sound that way.

Its horrible to think that the world beleives that since someone is white, that they are automatically rich and well placed. I didnt go to University more then a semester because I couldnt afford it. My parents could afford to send one of us (my sister and I) for half of University.. She got the half. I saved up for the semester..

I feel that University and College should be universally available, and in the perfect workd we do not live in, it would be. At the very least all scholarships should be based on merit. Black out people's names, race, age, and sex.. go by grades, extra curricular activities, and resume.. that way there is a balance between people who could spend all thier time at the books, and others who had to work while they were in school..

__________________
"Life is possible only with illusions. And so, the question for the science of mental health must become an absolutely new and revolutionary one, yet one that reflects the essence of the human condition: On what level of illusion does one live?"
-- Ernest Becker, The Denial of Death

losthellhound

ARRGHGHGH I hate that term.. Its not reverse discrimination.. Its discrimination!

sorry, but the media and school using that term because it implies that its different some how. Its not

__________________
"Life is possible only with illusions. And so, the question for the science of mental health must become an absolutely new and revolutionary one, yet one that reflects the essence of the human condition: On what level of illusion does one live?"
-- Ernest Becker, The Denial of Death

Phaenx

Go Whitey indeed, I'm busting my ass to pay for college, what's the deal? You need a hand because you're a minority? For what god damn reason? I'm poor bitches, gimme a scholarship.

__________________
"I went shopping last night at like 1am. The place was empty and this old woman just making polite conversation said to me, 'where is everyone??' I replied, 'In bed, same place you and I should be!' Took me ten minutes to figure out why she gave me a dirty look." --Some guy

sexymama

Very valid point -- you are right. Thank you.

__________________
If you can go deeply into lovemaking, the ego disappears. That is the beauty of lovemaking, that it is another source of a glimpse of god

It's not about being perfect; it's about developing some skill at managing imperfection.

Kadath

"An Asian couple named Wong walked into the hospital with the wife in labor. The doctor directed them to the delivery room and delivered the baby which was, to his surprise, Caucasian. When he asked the father to explain this, the father looked at his wife and said 'Two Wongs don't make a white.'"

__________________
it's quiet in here

losthellhound

Thats a lot anecdote to prove a point. Im not saying that two wrongs make a right.. I am saying that the second wrong can illustrate the first's .. wrongness..

__________________
"Life is possible only with illusions. And so, the question for the science of mental health must become an absolutely new and revolutionary one, yet one that reflects the essence of the human condition: On what level of illusion does one live?"
-- Ernest Becker, The Denial of Death

Charlatan

losthellhound... I'm surprised you feel this way... affirmitive action is hardly an issue in Canada.

Goverments grants (when we had them) and loans are available to everyone (it's how I managed to put myself through university)

To my knowledge (which could be lacking) there is no affirmative action movement in Canada. There may be scholarships and bursaries available based on ethnicity but I see those as being just as valid as a sports scholarship. I'm not black and I'm not an athelete so I didn't expect to win either...

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

theusername

"based on ethnicity but I see those as being just as valid as a sports scholarship"

When you play a sport you are performing a service to the school which brings them money.

Affirmative action should be based on economics and not on ethnicity.

Kadath

Actually, it's more of what's known as a "shaggy dog" story than an anecdote. I thought the fact that it was a semi-racist joke was appropriate. There are better ways to illustrate wrongness.

__________________
it's quiet in here

Strange Famous

That "scholarship" is illegal and rightly so.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Charlatan

Have you seen Canadian University sports? They spend money. They don't make money. They aren't in the same league as US college sports (we just don't take sports as seriously up here, we tend to focus our Univeristy dollars on things like education ).

losthellhound

You're right, its not as much of an issue, but it is an issue. There are several bursaries that "encourage those of visible minorities to apply and make record of thier ethnic group".. Its not as blatent, but the message is clear.

__________________
"Life is possible only with illusions. And so, the question for the science of mental health must become an absolutely new and revolutionary one, yet one that reflects the essence of the human condition: On what level of illusion does one live?"
-- Ernest Becker, The Denial of Death

Zeld2.0

damn straight

Rekna

what is illegial about that scholarship? And if it is illegial arent all scholarships that are based on race illegial?

sipsake

Do you think there's a clear cut distinction between economics and ethnicity?

__________________
When life hands you a lemon, say "Oh yeah, I like lemons. What else you got?"

Henry Rollins

Paq

Yeah, i do, but mainly bc i see rich whites, rich blacks, pooooooooorrrrr whites, pooor blacks, and everything in between. I don't see too many rich latino/mexicanos actually, but my area is actually known for having a large latino community that performs menial labor, but we don't have many rich people total and the ones that are aren't all white. I wouldn't say it's proportionate either, bc we have a 50/50 city between white/black and i'd say the rich are about 90/10 white/black. But the poor and middle are closer to expectations.

Besides, there can be certain standards in place for "economic" need with certain rules, etc. whereas for ethnicity, you are saying, "All people with this color of skin need to have this form of help"
It's an old argument and i'm probably one of the most liberal people on this board, but i absolutely HATE affirmative action. I don't call it reverse racism bc it's just racist, or rather, race based, which i think is absurd. Whatever happened to equal?

As for the scholarship, it's perfectly legal as it's a student group and not university sponsored...There are several scholarships given out by student groups that could be considered "discriminatory" if twisted the right way... I mean, can i help it if i'm not a business major and they get really good scholarships?

__________________
Live.

Chris

seretogis

Not that I expect you to, but are you planning on elaborating on this little gem of a statement?

__________________
seretogis - sieg heil
perfect little dream the kind that hurts the most, forgot how it feels well almost
no one to blame always the same, open my eyes wake up in flames

Sparhawk

If people spent half as much effort looking for a merit-based scholarship as they do whining about affirmative action, we'd all be better off (and those people would be slightly less torqued)...

Here's a start:

http://fastweb.monster.com/ib/google_phrase-1f

http://www.scholarsite.com/

http://www.lazystudentsway.com/scholarshipspecial.htm

http://www.scholarshipandgrantguide.com/index.html

Take notice, the above took me approximately 2.5 seconds on google. I'm pretty sure I'd look harder if I was actually going to school though.

__________________
"In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work. It's incredibly hard. It's - and it's hard work. I understand how hard it is. I get the casualty reports every day. I see on the TV screens how hard it is. But it's necessary work. We're making progress. It is hard work."

Ustwo

And the fact that merit based scholarships exsist make racisim ok?

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Sparhawk

I can always count on you for good lines like that. Thanks...

__________________
"In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work. It's incredibly hard. It's - and it's hard work. I understand how hard it is. I get the casualty reports every day. I see on the TV screens how hard it is. But it's necessary work. We're making progress. It is hard work."

Boo

I was born a poor white child.

When the time came, there was no money for higher education. If I was a minority I could have gotten near a full ride.

Affirmative action in todays society is complete BULLSHIT, like it was 20 years ago. It boils my blood to think that a poor (financially challenged) child in todays society would get overlooked because of his/her caucasioness.

I fully agree.

Speak your reasons please. Remember that whitey will BE the minority in just a few short decades. Will whitey be afforded the benefits of affirmative action?

__________________
Back button again, I must be getting old.

smooth

I don't understand your point. If you were truly as disadvantaged as you seem to imply, you would have gotten a free ride based on economic need.

I don't know of any student who was turned away based on economic need. In fact, all top tier universities' application sites explicitly state that no one will be denied education for lack of funds.

You may have to attend a two-year community college and a state university, but if you want to get a Ph. D. and can't, it won't be because you didn't have enough money to pay for the tuition (which is extremely discretional in terms of who pays what by that point).

Of course, race plays an interesting role in the way grades are distributed--namely, perceptions of one's capabilities as well as who has access to which graders (ability, academic esteem, etc.)

Race plays an integral part in the types of activities one can engage in outside of school.

Race also correlates with who knows how to create a resume, what they can put on it, or even knowing that such a thing exists.

Presumably, school counselors would try and prod certain children along a college track, but some schools don't have any college track children (or think they don't) or have too limited resources to spend on all children equally.

Class position plays a significant role with these issues as well, I won't deny that they don't. So we can expect that poor white kids would be disadvantaged in these respects, too. But the intersection of race and class is even more destructive--a poor, black kid is likely to face even more disadvantages than a poor, white kid.

For these reasons, I don't agree that marking out one's race will level the playing field.

KellyC

Man..If I were white, I'd be showing so much freakin' pride. Even more than I show my "azn" pride. I credit to the white man for what the world is today, more "good stuff" are from white people than any other races or combine.

__________________
Him: Ok, I have to ask, what do you believe?
Me: Shit happens.

Zeld2.0

Smooth brought up a good point - if you were truly at a disadvantage, I don't see how money could not have been gotten.

And i remember not all too long ago when I myself was applying colleges - I didn't really need financial aid but applied anyways and was happy to cut a chunk of my expenses out.

Friends coming from disadvantaged backgrounds often complained they wouldn't get it or thought they had little chance - IMO they were defeating themselves.

To be honest a good chunk of money is always available - most just goes unclaimed.

And yes I firmly believe that going by race is the stupidest thing possible - people tend to forget that even a majority of an ethnicity being poor doesn't mean that they are *all* poor.

The majority of the people living around me are Asian and while many come from poor backgrounds, there are also many rich ones as well.

Makes little sense when the rich and the poor can get the same money when one doesn't need it as much as the other for say, college.

Anyways IMO aid based on economics is an investment - you put in money in the hope that years from now they become great productive citizens who in turn fulfill that investment.

losthellhound

Thank you. That was very well put

__________________
"Life is possible only with illusions. And so, the question for the science of mental health must become an absolutely new and revolutionary one, yet one that reflects the essence of the human condition: On what level of illusion does one live?"
-- Ernest Becker, The Denial of Death

onetime2

This is not always the case. While I went through college I knew of several very qualified caucasian students who could not get aid despite coming from a "disadvantaged" background.

As far as money always being available, it's often true if you look at programs as a whole, but when you get down to specific cases it doesn't always work that way.

__________________
Strive to be more curious than ignorant.

james t kirk

You know, a simple solution would be to make colleges and universities more affordable.

Yeah, your taxes would go up, but so what. The rewards to the public as a whole would be greater than the tax burden.

In Britain, Germany, France, a university education is free or just about free.

For a full time domestic student to attend Engineering at the University of Toronto (if you can get in) is about 8 grand Canadian, or about $5,200 US. I have no idea how much a premiere engineering university costs in the states. I would guess a liberal arts degree to be in the range of 6,500 C$.

http://www.ecf.utoronto.ca/apsc/registrar/


I had some smart parents that began saving for my education when i was born, and my sister too. We both also worked in the summers to cover the other costs.

We both graduated debt free.

My parents were by no means rich either.

balderdash111

I think there are a few general points of agreement here:

1) Society should endeavor to make college available for as many as it can.

2) Scholarships should be available based on economic need. (poor kids should be able to go college, regardless of ethnicity)

3) Absent a countervailing need, scholarships based on race are not the preferred method.

Before you jump all over me on point 3, hear me out.

The question is whether there is a countervailing need to justify ethnic-based scholarships.

There are a couple of arguments for, and a couple against.

For:
Where certain ethnicities are under-represented among a student body, it makes sense for a college to try to encourage applicants of that ethnicity. This is (part of) the diversity argument. A very big part, I think.

For:
Where a society has historically discriminated against a certain ethnicity, some argue that society has an obligation to try to make up for that historical discrimination. One way to do this is to give preferential treatment to that ethnicity for some period of time until it is possible to conclude, in some fashion, that the "status" of that ethinicity in society is what it would have been had no such historical discrimination taken place.

*EDIT* a more subtle version of this is argument is to say that you need to establish an upper middle class among an ethinicity, in order to acclimate society to the idea that these ethnicities can be just as productive as everyone else, which will help reduce future discrimination against members of that ethnicity

Against:
White high school students didn't have anything to do with historical discrimination, so it's not fair to penalize them for past racial misdeeds.

Against:
Discrimination based on race is just plain wrong, regardless of the race involved.

Against:
Will there ever be a point where, in terms of present status, historically disadvantaged ethnicities will be in the same position they would have been in had there been no past discrimination? To put it another way, at what point do you say that certain people are poor because society requires some people to be poor? Or because they don't work hard enough?

Just my 65 cents.


FWIW, I support affirmative action, but recognize it's a thorny problem. And who knows, my attitude might change if a lose a job to a less qualified person - or even to an equally qualified person if the only reason he/she beat me was b/c of his/her ethnicity

__________________
A little silliness now and then is cherished by the wisest men. -- Willy Wonka

SLM3

Anyone else here think a lot of white people in America take for granted how much better they really do have it than anyone else in the whole country?

I don't feel bad for white people in America. You think blacks and hispanics have so many more opportunities than you. Try being one for a day.

Give me a freakin break. You still have everything stacked in your favour.


SLM3

theusername

You say white as if we are one people...

My grandfather immigrated from Warsaw, Poland to escape the Holocaust. He came over here, joined the army then worked selling pickles and for the Post Office. His family never owned a slave. Never discriminated against anyone. My grandmother came from Russia...etc u know where this goes.

So tell me why a black person with the same gpa, economic status, SAT score, and goes to the same school i do can get into a significantly better college then i can.

People have this impression that all blacks are poor. All whites are rich. All hispanics are poor...etc. It is a generalization and it is simply not true.

Stare At The Sun

Do you even live in the US? I have so much stacked against me, its nuts, and it will only continue to get worse as this situation gets worse and worse. Though it could be avoided; see below

It seems like every day, more and more "Racist" issues come up. I truly do NOT understand why everything can't be equal, truly equal, where everything is based on merit, and what you put into it. IE; when you apply for a job, instead of your name, write your social security number, refrences etc. You get hired based on your ability to preform the job well.

And since when is it the Government's job to take care of the "Poor Minority". The United States is a place where you get out what you put in. If you sit on your lazy ass and do nothing, then that's what you're going to get. If you're in an Inner City school because your parents can't afford anything better, well, that's your bit in life, if you choose to work your way out of it, then you deserve to get the good job that will come because of that. Or you can sit and rot, choose to do drugs and be involved in gangs. Regardless, it's ALL a personal choice. Think of all the Rags to riches stories, everyone has to start somewhere, it's just a matter of personal motivation.

I pay the same taxes that anyone else does, why do others who decided to not do anything with their lives get more of my tax money? Since when is it right to be punished for your own success??

I do not understand how anyone can honestly say that AA, Minority representation, minority scholarships are fair. Everyone has an equal chance from day one. What they do with their life is theirs. It is unfair for anyone to recieve anything based souly on skin color, or gender. That is indeed REVERSE DISCRIMINATION against me; and million's of other hardworking A-typical White
males.

This is my outlook on the entire situation, race relations etc, everyone should be equal. Noone gets anything because they are black white or hispanic, male or female. You get out what you put in. Period. Millions of people have worked through adversity, todays youths are NO different. I will probably be branded a racist, or ignorant, or "unaware", because of my statements. However, my statements are not meant to offend anyone, and I will defend them.

james t kirk

That reminds me of a Chris Rock routine where he says something like no white man would ever change places with a black man, even me, and I am rich. Even a one legged white bus boy wouldn't be me. "I think i will wait and see if this white thing works out"

Man, a lot of you guys really whine allot about minorities getting preferential treatment over you when it comes to getting into a college.

The hard truth is that if you don't get in, it's because you didn't make the cut. Time to go back to highschool and improve your grades so you can get in rather than whining about getting fucked over.

Boo hoo. No-one ever said life was fair. It's a bitch and you have to be able to roll with the punchs, and out wit it at ever step.

Mojo_PeiPei

Its fucked up when they perform just as shitty or worse then us but get accepted on the grounds that they are black or <insert skin color/ethnicity here>.

__________________
To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

theusername

Chris Rock is a comedian whos goal is to make people laugh, not prove a political point.

I do complain about the college situation. As for "making the cut" for your information I got into Rutgers University, today I received an acceptance to University of Pitt, so i dont have to "go back to high school." This doesnt have to do with grades. Your obviously not reading my posts but read them over again.

If a black,hispanic,whatever kid does better than me in high school more power to him he deserves my spot, if he does worse and still gets in over me that is not right. That is racism, basing a judgement on the basis of the color of one's skin. All im saying is throw it out of the equation. And economic considerations are fine by me just not on the basis of race.

Martin Luther King preached equality not racism...

Also people have to stop calling it "reverse" discrimination or racism to try and sound politically correct. Its not reverse anything. it just simply is discrimination/racism.

Zeld2.0

Anyways as a saying from me - enough whining on either side and get your shit done.

To be honest, a lot of people don't work hard enough to get in to a lot of colleges on *all* sides. Yes most people like to blame problems on minorities, but many of those people who complain probably shouldn't have gone in either.

For me, its simple - work hard and do good enough to get into the colleges, then you have a legitimate grievance - fact is, most people don't have legitimate grievances and thus this is in place. It sounds like a weird twist, but thats my stand - until people stop whining and acutally proving they're worhty of removing it for good, then it'll be here because too many are split on it.

SLM3

What I find interesting is that people here talk as if everyone is on equal ground. Are we really that far removed from the civil rights era? Do you honestly think everyone is as enlightened as you people who speak of equality here? Racism and discrimination against minorities is alive and doing very well.

I wonder if you all truly believe the US is completely devoid of prejudice against minorities or if you've just convinced yourself of that in order to bitch about something that's probably never affected you personally.

Slavery wasn't that long ago. Whites only bathrooms weren't that long ago. 9/11 and the ignorance we see towards Arab Muslims is facing us today yet it's the poor white man that's being trodden upon.

My fingers are bleeding now from playing this violin so much.


SLM3

smooth

Are you arguing against yourself?

Did a less qualified candidate take "your" spot, or have you been accepted to the universities you wanted?

I don't understand what you're complaining about, but from your latest post, it doesn't seem that you have been deprived of any life chances due to a less deserving candidate.

smooth

Who is "they" and what specific example do you know of where a less qualified candidate was admitted into a university or awarded money at the expense of a more qualified, non-minority student?

Actually, I confused as to who you think gets to decide the qualifications for admission or award. It obviously shouldn't be the applicant (you, in this case), since every applicant thinks he or she is the most qualified.

I write these comments off as sour grapes.

Interestingly, I think your comment underscores the reality of race relations in this current era. Minority candidates couldn't have possibly received benefits on their merits, it must be due to their race at the expense of more qualified, non-minority candidates.

That is, white candidates are always given second place to less qualified, non-white candidates. Is that what you think? I think that more qualified, non-white candidates are outperforming lazy white people (you know, all those "lazy" fuckers on welfare--you do know the majority are white, right?).