02-05-2004, 03:27 PM | #41 (permalink) |
Insane
Location: In the Woods.
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I agree with Lurkette on this one. I mean, I would find it incredibly hard to love and cherish a child who was the product of a rape. A daily reminder of terrible things that have happened to me? GREAT!
Also, I think pharmacists these days are on absolute power trips. They are NOT doctors, they have NOT completed their medical school - just because they deal with drugs, their effects, and anatomy, does NOT mean that they have the professional knowledge of diagnosing someone. Sure, they may have 20 years of experience and pretty much be able to figure out the problem, but its NOT formal training that a doctor has. If a pharmacist has a problem with a prescription, they can phone the doctor who prescribed it and have a discussion with them on the merits, rather than flat out refusing. I know as of recent I've had some problems with my own personal pharmasist. I'm on a method of birth control he feels that is 'STUPID' for someone my age to be on. However, my doctor and I have decided this is the best course of action for me. Last time I went to the pharmacist, he decided to ask me a round of incredibly embarassing questions on my sexual history, in earshot of many other customers. I refused to answer his questions, and booked it the hell out of there. I came back later with my Mother (who is a nurse) and she gave him a tounge lashing. What ever happened to patient confidentiality? Things such as sexual history never have to come between you and your pharmacist. Now, to tie that in - I believe that the pharmacist should have never even KNOWN that the woman was taking it because she was raped. This is information he doesn't need to know. Being someone in the medical profession, he should have known that his moral values SHOULD NEVER play a part in doing his job. UGH! I could go on forever about how much I hate [certain] pharmacists .. but this was just a long winded way of saying what everyone else probably did .. :\ |
02-05-2004, 03:43 PM | #42 (permalink) |
Loves my girl in thongs
Location: North of Mexico, South of Canada
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Thank you for posting lurkette and Isis.
It's good to have both genders opinion on this incident, especially when the discussion at hand involves the female, not male body.
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Seen on an employer evaluation: "The wheel is turning but the hamsters dead" ____________________________ Is arch13 really a porn diety ? find out after the film at 11. -Nanofever |
02-05-2004, 04:01 PM | #43 (permalink) | ||||
Walking is Still Honest
Location: Seattle, WA
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I didn't decide when life begins. I decided to recognize when life begins. It's not a matter of opinion. I have no problem making moral choices for others, when the decision of whether or not to violate others' abilities to make choices, is the moral choice in question. For instance, I have no problem with laws against rape. And I have no problem with laws that would take away a woman's right to destroy HER clump of cells, given the nature of the clump of cells. Quote:
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I wonder if we're stuck in Rome. Last edited by FoolThemAll; 02-05-2004 at 04:03 PM.. |
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02-05-2004, 04:06 PM | #44 (permalink) | |
Insane
Location: In the Woods.
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In this 'SPECIFIC' equation, there is only one, I believe. Did this guy purposely rape the woman in order to have a child? I highly doubt it. The raped woman is the one who has to go through not only the psychological damage caused by this rape, but she has to carry through with the pregnancy too? In this case, I believe the man should have absolutely NO bearing on the 'equation' if thats what you want to call it. |
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02-05-2004, 04:19 PM | #45 (permalink) | |
Cracking the Whip
Location: Sexymama's arms...
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And thus, the crux of the problem, which people (usually on the prochoice side) refuse to recognize: What is human life? What does it mean to be a "person"? When these questions can be answered catagorically, then there will be no further debate. I don't believe this will ever happen.
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate! |
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02-05-2004, 04:51 PM | #46 (permalink) | ||
Walking is Still Honest
Location: Seattle, WA
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But in most cases, you're absolutely right. One way I look at it: we need a straight and reasoned line, one the law can act on. Birth is such a line, but partial-birth abortion has shown it to be, for all its convenience, false. Consciousness isn't very clear, but neither is adulthood. The problem with this line is that there is nothing to base it on. It's arbitrary. It can't be the 'feeling pain' thing, or otherwise dentists could become very effective hired killers. And so it can't think? It will, given the time to develop. And that's the key for me; it's developing. Organically. Its own organs. Its own mind. Its own body. It's a life, in an early stage of development. But then, that's not enough for many. No, human beings are conscious by definition, human beings are independent by definition. And we fight over whose definition is best. And so the story goes on...
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I wonder if we're stuck in Rome. |
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02-05-2004, 05:24 PM | #47 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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While I'm in the clump of cells camp myself, I can understand the pro-lifers point of view as well. Its pretty easy to get people all fired up in a rape case, but when abortion becomes a form of birth control for some people (and don't deny it, as it is) I start to wonder what sort of values our society has.
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
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02-05-2004, 06:01 PM | #48 (permalink) | |
My future is coming on
Moderator Emeritus
Location: east of the sun and west of the moon
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And this is not a case of abortion, as many have pointed out. The drugs would prevent fertilization. If this is abortion, then all forms of birth control are abortion. Which they're not.
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"If ten million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing." - Anatole France |
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02-05-2004, 06:05 PM | #49 (permalink) | |
Cracking the Whip
Location: Sexymama's arms...
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We have a winner! That is why we are pro-choice and not pro-abortion!
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate! |
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02-05-2004, 06:16 PM | #50 (permalink) | ||||||||
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From http://www.emergencybirthcontrol.or...howEBCworks.htm Quote:
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02-05-2004, 06:55 PM | #51 (permalink) |
Loves my girl in thongs
Location: North of Mexico, South of Canada
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Thank you Anomaly_ , your post was highly informative and well presented with factual evidence. i learned much from those links.
Lebell: I agree. Pro-choice is choosing to allow each indivigual to decide the appropriate course of action themselves, as opposed to legislating any given action as correct. Bravo!
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Seen on an employer evaluation: "The wheel is turning but the hamsters dead" ____________________________ Is arch13 really a porn diety ? find out after the film at 11. -Nanofever |
02-05-2004, 08:18 PM | #53 (permalink) | ||
Banned
Location: 'bout 2 feet from my iMac
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some other edumactional links:
http://plannedparenthood.com/library...ONTROL/EC.html Quote:
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and info on obtaining EC: http://plannedparenthood.com/ec/ also, there's a hotline to call to obtain local information: 1-800-NOT-2LATE and, if all that didn't tell you, I FULLY support emergency birth control. the pharmasist in this tory did what he felt was right, and his employer will do what they have established in their company policy. Personally I think it is morally wrong to deny medication to an individual when it has been prescribed by a doctor. Perhaps there is a pressing need to do so. perhaps a pregnancy would kill the mother-to-be, perhaps it's not being used as birth-control, who knows. Not the pharmasist, because of the patient-doctor confidentiality, and he has no right to know. I'd almost say that the poor woman has a case to sue the pants off of the ass-hat for willful neglect. He's denying medical care to someone when he doesn't know the whole story and does not have the training to make judgement, even if he DID have the whole story. I'm with Lurkette on the abortion issue. It's my body, and my life, and I'm not ready for a kid right now. so I take birth control. and you know what? I may very well have killed a fertelized egg somewhere along the way by not allowing it to become embedded in the wall of my uterus. And I'm fine with that. And, since it's my soul that's going to hell if that's not okay, well.. i don't see how it's anyone else's business. |
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02-05-2004, 08:46 PM | #54 (permalink) | |
Kiss of Death
Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow
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To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition. |
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02-05-2004, 08:59 PM | #55 (permalink) |
Cracking the Whip
Location: Sexymama's arms...
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This isn't directed at any one person, just a general note to keep everything within forum rules.
I know how hot these topics can get, so if you feel yourself losing it, step away before you say something everyone will regret. Thanks and now back to your regularly scheduled thread -lebell
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate! |
02-05-2004, 09:39 PM | #56 (permalink) | ||
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02-05-2004, 09:48 PM | #57 (permalink) | |
Kiss of Death
Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow
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Oh my bad, it was Sanger who influenced Hitler's eugenics programs. Funny she also preached eugenics for black people and the systematic removal of them and other social undesireables.
http://blackgenocide.org/negro.html Quote:
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To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition. |
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02-05-2004, 09:59 PM | #58 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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You are deciding its ok for someone to flush a bunch of viable cells in order to prevent the birth of a child. I'm sure you wouldn't say a mother has the right to kill a born infant. To a right-to-lifer there is NO difference, and I can see their point. When did you become YOU? I don't have any memories until maybe 3 and no real memories until at least 6. I was totally dependent on my parents, so should they have had the right to kill me? If you think that life begins at conception then you have a duty to try to outlaw abortion the same say someone like you would want the killing of children outlawed. Thats the only difference between them and you (unless of course you think killing children is ok, in which case all bets are off )
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
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02-05-2004, 10:05 PM | #59 (permalink) | |
Insane
Location: In the Woods.
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THERE IS NO ONE RIGHT ANSWER TO WHEN LIFE BEGINS. Some may argue it is the second the sperm hits the egg. Some may figure the blastocyst stage. Some may figure when it implants. The point is, there is NO right answer to this question. And in relation to that quote: I'm carring what, 400 viable follicle cells in my ovaries right now. But because those are "viable cells that can cause life" .. I'm committing a crime by ovulating? Until we define a line where life actually BEGINS .. this argument will be as circular as the world. (Which might still be debated, by some ;D ;D). |
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02-05-2004, 10:15 PM | #60 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: South Carolina
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you'd be committing a crime by ovulating w/out conception just as a man commits a crime by masturbating w/out chance of impregnating a woman.
As for when life begins, sometimes, you can't tell until the clump of cells is way past 70 yrs old..
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Live. Chris |
02-05-2004, 10:23 PM | #61 (permalink) | |
Banned
Location: 'bout 2 feet from my iMac
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I also would think that you pro-lifer's would encourage birth-control, as a preventative to abortion. if there's no pregnancy, there's no child to abort. Mojo_PeiPei: as for keeping my pants on, well... when you are me, you can make that decision for me. untill then, mind your own damn business, because my life is my own, and as long as I'm not harming you, you have no say in it. |
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02-05-2004, 10:27 PM | #62 (permalink) |
Kiss of Death
Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow
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All I'm saying if you aren't ready to take responsiblity for your actions, or in this case an action that creates life, keep your pants on.
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To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition. |
02-05-2004, 10:40 PM | #63 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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So theft, murder and rape is ok? Society decides morality every day, or the end result is anarchy. If you believe in a soul and if you think life begins at conception how could you NOT want to outlaw abortion? It would be no different then killing someone walking down the street. Most motivations for abortion are selfish. And before someone jumps all over that statement, I said most not all. Its the parents inconvenience that seems to be the issue, the welfare of the child is not an issue. I personally don't care about abortion, and wish the controversy would go away so we could get to other issues in society.
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
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02-05-2004, 10:41 PM | #64 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
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02-05-2004, 10:42 PM | #65 (permalink) | |
Loves my girl in thongs
Location: North of Mexico, South of Canada
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best.sarcasm.ever And Ustwo and Mojo_PeiPei: The discussion here is not about abortion. We've established that the 72 hour pill does not stop anything that has already implanted. It simply prevents ovulation. If ovulation has not occured before this pill has taken, then it does not occur. If there was no ovulation, then there was no egg.if there was no egg, there was never fertilization. if there was no fertilization there was never a clump of cells to argue about. If there is nothing to argue about, we should return to our regularly schedualed thread and discuss if the pharmacist has a right to express his moral beliefs when practicing in the public health feild and/or if when paid by someone to do a job, you understand that your representing the company and you left your personal opinions on anything from the superbowl to the 72 hour pill at the door when you clocked in. My opinions on the thread at hand are clear in my first post. His personal beliefs where incompatible with his choosen proffesion and employer, both of which mandated that the 72hr pill was acceptable. Therefor he deserved to lose his job, and his name should not be withheld for privacy, so that other pharmacy's can know who he is to decide if they want him on staff.
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Seen on an employer evaluation: "The wheel is turning but the hamsters dead" ____________________________ Is arch13 really a porn diety ? find out after the film at 11. -Nanofever Last edited by arch13; 02-05-2004 at 10:56 PM.. |
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02-05-2004, 10:47 PM | #66 (permalink) |
Huzzah for Welcome Week, Much beer shall I imbibe.
Location: UCSB
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"It's not just your body, its another human being."
Says who ? where does life begin ? "It has its own unique DNA and it has its own soul (a soul apart from god and religion, Einstein proved the essence)." Please explain how Einsein proved that each person has a soul... "Hey if your not ready for a kid keep your fucking pants on! That works." Unless you get raped or a condom fails or ect. "You people just keep telling your selves its not human, I refer to slavery and Dread Scott and Nazi Germany's persecution of the lesser races." Godwin's Law, you lose... I can stop right here.
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I'm leaving for the University of California: Santa Barbara in 5 hours, give me your best college advice - things I need, good ideas, bad ideas, nooky, ect. Originally Posted by Norseman on another forum: "Yeah, the problem with the world is the stupid people are all cocksure of themselves and the intellectuals are full of doubt." |
02-05-2004, 10:52 PM | #67 (permalink) |
Kiss of Death
Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow
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How do you figure I lose? People justify the systematic genocide and persecution of people based on defining what human life is. Einstein based it off sensory impulses consisting of electricity, its with you the second your concieved through death and since it is electricity it never degrades... if you don't believe me ask Jeff GoldBlum in Powder =P .
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To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition. |
02-05-2004, 11:30 PM | #68 (permalink) | |
Huzzah for Welcome Week, Much beer shall I imbibe.
Location: UCSB
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Seems like einstein's soul theory is just a misguided attempt to prove religion through science.
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I'm leaving for the University of California: Santa Barbara in 5 hours, give me your best college advice - things I need, good ideas, bad ideas, nooky, ect. Originally Posted by Norseman on another forum: "Yeah, the problem with the world is the stupid people are all cocksure of themselves and the intellectuals are full of doubt." |
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02-05-2004, 11:36 PM | #69 (permalink) |
Kiss of Death
Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow
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Actually quite the opposite, Einstein didn't believe in the soul seperate from the body. I still don't get this whole Goodwin's Law thing. What I further don't understand is how it discredits my argument about the Nazi's, especially in context of this thread. But at anyrate Nazi's aside, the easiest way to get down on a group of people is to dehumanize them.
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To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition. Last edited by Mojo_PeiPei; 02-05-2004 at 11:38 PM.. |
02-05-2004, 11:59 PM | #70 (permalink) | |
Loves my girl in thongs
Location: North of Mexico, South of Canada
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Anyway, keep to the topic. The topic is not abortion. The topic is this case and if what he did is right or if consequences should be felt by him for his actions. Let me repeat this mojo, the topic is not when life begines or abortion.
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Seen on an employer evaluation: "The wheel is turning but the hamsters dead" ____________________________ Is arch13 really a porn diety ? find out after the film at 11. -Nanofever |
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02-06-2004, 03:45 AM | #72 (permalink) |
follower of the child's crusade?
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It looks like I am the only person who would back a prison sentence for this individual?
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"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas |
02-06-2004, 06:45 AM | #73 (permalink) | |||
Walking is Still Honest
Location: Seattle, WA
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I wonder if we're stuck in Rome. |
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02-06-2004, 08:09 AM | #74 (permalink) |
can't help but laugh
Location: dar al-harb
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interesting article, poor title choice.
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If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves. ~ Winston Churchill |
02-07-2004, 10:15 PM | #75 (permalink) | |||
Insane
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02-07-2004, 10:52 PM | #76 (permalink) |
Insane
Location: Within the Woods
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Cytotec, a medicine used for treating ulcers is widely used to produce miscarriages.
Any public outcry over that one yet?
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There seem to be countless rituals and cultural beliefs designed to alleviate their fear of a simple biological truth - all organisms eventually perish. |
02-08-2004, 10:35 AM | #78 (permalink) | |
Walking is Still Honest
Location: Seattle, WA
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Good points brought up. Thanks.
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I wonder if we're stuck in Rome. |
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02-08-2004, 03:44 PM | #79 (permalink) | |
Insane
Location: Corvallis, OR.
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02-09-2004, 10:57 AM | #80 (permalink) | |||
hovering in the distance
Location: the land of milk and honey
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no signature required |
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