Oregon - Measure 30 Fails - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

wilbjammin · 02-04-2004, 11:49 AM

Oregonians soundly defeat tax increase, triggering cuts to services

Quote:

Oregonians soundly defeat tax increase, triggering cuts to services

February 4, 2004 5:38 AM

The Associated Press

Portland-AP -- Oregon voters overwhelmingly rejected a proposed 800 million dollar tax hike.

This means looming state budget cuts for schools and other key services.

With 95 percent of precincts reporting early today, the measure was failing 59 percent to 41 percent.

Rejection of the tax package automatically triggers 544 million dollars in spending cuts on May first.

Political analyst Jim Moore said people simply weren't buying --quote-- "the doom and gloom thing."

The proposed tax measure would have shielded schools from 285 million in cutbacks.

And the Oregon Health Plan -- which extends health insurance to poor people -- now means nearly 50-thousand of the working poor would lose their coverage.

Democratic Governor Kulongoski is now under pressure from some Republicans to call a special session to recraft the budget.

Well, looks like I might not get a job here next year after I get my degree now. This state is falling apart. I'm really worried about my future now...

Ustwo · 02-04-2004, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by wilbjammin
Oregonians soundly defeat tax increase, triggering cuts to services

Well, looks like I might not get a job here next year after I get my degree now. This state is falling apart. I'm really worried about my future now...

Why does your job require a tax hike?

Mojo_PeiPei · 02-04-2004, 02:43 PM

Is it cut on the growth? Because I guarentee that those programs will not lose a dime unless they are cancelled.

Lokus · 02-04-2004, 03:15 PM

You think that's bad? Try taking a look down south a bit.

Also, I'm curious what your job is too.

Scipio · 02-04-2004, 03:39 PM

Mabye he wants to work in government. Or teaching.

smooth · 02-04-2004, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lokus
You think that's bad? Try taking a look down south a bit.

Also, I'm curious what your job is too.

I grew up in San Diego and went up to Oregon for my undergrad.

Their economy is imploding--nothing as bad as down here. We have revenue and industry to keep plodding along until the atmosphere shapes up.

Oregon, however, has no industry and no taxes (only homeowner taxes). There are a lot of other problems, as well, but their economy is in much worse shape than ours.

wilbjammin · 02-04-2004, 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ustwo
Why does your job require a tax hike?

Did you read it? "Rejection of the tax package automatically triggers 544 million dollars in spending cuts on May first."

I'm in the middle of getting my master's degree for middle/secondary teaching.

Mojo_PeiPei · 02-04-2004, 08:13 PM

Again I will ask, are they cutting increases in spending? Or decreasing money overall? I.e. instead of 7% growth for the programs, is it down to 4%? Or will the programs get less funding this year then last?

wilbjammin · 02-04-2004, 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mojo_PeiPei
Again I will ask, are they cutting increases in spending? Or decreasing money overall? I.e. instead of 7% growth for the programs, is it down to 4%? Or will the programs get less funding this year then last?

You're obviously not from Oregon. The failure of Measure 30 means that 544 millions dollars that was allocated in the budget this year is gone. There haven't been increases for quite a while, since Measure 5 passed. Each year since 1990 the legislature tries to find a way to do more with less money. We never had a sales tax, and Measure 5 set a limit on property taxes and moved education control away from local control almost entirely into state control. We're already operating at sub-standard levels, now we have to take our inadequate budget and somehow slash 544 million from it. They are cutting everything, whatever had the slightest budgeted increase in spending is gone. We're literally to the point of letting hundreds of prisoners out of prison early.

I was answering Ustwo's question "why does your job require a tax hike?" - because now instead of having money to hire teachers to replace retiring teachers and deal with population increases (school districts get a set number of funds per each child), our state is going to be forced to lay off teachers unless something can be worked out before May.

filtherton · 02-04-2004, 08:57 PM

At least a majority of oregoninians support their own economic downfall. That's what democracy is all about.

Lebell · 02-04-2004, 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mojo_PeiPei
Again I will ask, are they cutting increases in spending? Or decreasing money overall? I.e. instead of 7% growth for the programs, is it down to 4%? Or will the programs get less funding this year then last?

To answer your question directly, current programs are being cut, because they are not even being funded to keep up with inflation.

wilbjammin · 02-04-2004, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lebell
To answer your question directly, current programs are being cut, because they are not even being funded to keep up with inflation.

Yes, sorry, this is so frustrating for me that I have trouble finding the right words. I'm flustered.

smooth · 02-04-2004, 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by filtherton
At least a majority of oregoninians support their own economic downfall. That's what democracy is all about.

Actually, mainly due to retired Californians, along with some special measures that severely restrict tax measures from passing (e.g., in order for a tax measure to pass, over 50% of the registered voters have to show up to the polls, and a majority of them have to cast a yes vote).

chavos · 02-04-2004, 10:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by filtherton
At least a majority of oregoninians support their own economic downfall. That's what democracy is all about.

By electing Gov. Pawlenty, Minnesotans have ratified a similar plan....its disturbing to say the least. My mother is a teacher, and it appears that her job is once again in jeopardy. never mind that they're understaffed already... what part of "critical economic investment" do people not understand?

Ustwo · 02-04-2004, 11:00 PM

I'm sure they will do just fine.

Less government rarely hurts.

Lebell · 02-04-2004, 11:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ustwo
I'm sure they will do just fine.

Less government rarely hurts.

To put this in concrete terms:

It means kids will have less school supplies, like paper, glue, and books.

It means cuts in music and art programs.

It means larger class sizes and less time for individual instrution.

It means fewer teachers and not even a cost of living raise for those who remain.

That, Ustwo, is what it really means.

And those are just the effects I happen to know about.

Now please tell me how any of these are a "good" thing?

smooth · 02-05-2004, 12:26 AM

Let's take it a bit further, Lebell,

My niece (7 years old) only goes to school from Tuesday to Friday. I *think* my sister-in-law can pay extra for the "extra" day of instruction. The schools were already having trouble, imagine her state of education once she graduates with this approx. year less of instruction (cumulative days off each week, haven't bothered to calculate it).

The better teachers (and graduates) are recruited to other states--a situation called a "brain drain."

Many local communities are closing primary schools.

In Ashland, the community made a choice to close a primary school, not rebuild a middle school, and send the middle schoolers to high school on shifting schedules.

At SOU last year, we had a 5% cut across the board--that's every department. Students had to print their own syllabus (I know it's seems minor, but that's how barebones the cuts are going). That is, we've been making things "lean" for the past decade. In the words of one professor, There ain't no more to cut, bub!

juanvaldes · 02-05-2004, 12:31 AM

wilbjammin: how much of a tax increase would have this been? $1000 a year? more? less?

smooth · 02-05-2004, 12:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by juanvaldes
wilbjammin: how much of a tax increase would have this been? $1000 a year? more? less?

Here's the text:

http://www.sos.state.or.us/elections.../guide/m30.htm

and here's a summary:

Quote:

Measure 30

Explanatory Statement

Ballot Measure 30 enacts several temporary and permanent tax increases and changes in order to maintain certain levels of service in public education, senior services, public safety and other areas, and to avoid budget cuts.

The temporary tax increases and changes include the following:

1. Cigarette Taxes: Extends 10 cents per pack tax on cigarettes until January 1, 2006.

2. Income Taxes--Temporary Graduated Income Tax Assessment: A graduated income tax assessment will be added to an individual's income tax liability for 2003-2004. This tax will continue for 2005 unless the projected ending balance of Oregon's General Fund is greater than 4% of the General Fund appropriations for the 2003-05 biennium. The assessment is a percentage of taxpayer's income tax liability. The graduated rates are:

Single
Percentage added to
income tax owed
Joint or Head of Household
Below $10,000
0%
Below $20,000
$10,000-$19,999
1%
$20,000-$39,999
$20,000-$24,999
2%
$40,000-$49,999
$25,000-$29,999
3%
$50,000-$59,999
$30,000-$34,999
4%
$60,000-$69,999
$35,000-$49,999
5%
$70,000-$99,999
$50,000-$69,999
6%
$100,000-$139,999
$70,000-$89,999
7%
$140,000-$179,999
$90,000-$119,999
8%
$180,000-$239,999
Above $120,000
9%
Above $240,000

3. Corporate Credits: 20% of certain existing corporate tax credits will be deferred until 2006.

4. Dividends Received by Corporations: Deductions for dividends received by corporations from subsidiaries will be reduced from 70% to 35%, January 1, 2003-December 31, 2005.

The permanent tax increases and changes include the following:

1. Oregon Medical Expense Deduction: Taxpayer's age before Oregon's medical expense deduction is allowed will change from 62 years to 63 years in 2003, to 64 years in 2004, and to 65 years in 2005 and after. Beginning January 1, 2003, Oregon's medical expense deduction is reduced by the following percentages for those taxpayer's who claim this deduction:

Single
Reduction (%)
Joint or Head of Household
Below $15,000
0%
Below $30,000
$15,000-$29,999
60%
$30,000-$59,999
$30,000-$39,999
80%
$60,000-$79,999
$40,000-$49,999
90%
$80,000-$99,999
Above $50,000
100%
Above $100,000

2. Deduction and Depreciation of Certain Business Vehicles: Eliminates deductions for certain business vehicles weighing 6,000-14,000 pounds.

3. Extraterritorial Corporate Income Exclusion: Requires extraterritorial corporate income to be added back to a corporation's Oregon taxable income.

4. Corporate Minimum Tax: Increases Oregon C corporations' minimum tax from $10 to $250-$5,000 depending on sales.

5. S Corporation Minimum Tax: Increases Oregon S Corporations' minimum tax from $10 to $250-$500 depending on sales.

6. Property Tax Discounts: Reduces the discount a taxpayer may take on property tax payments made by November 15th of each year from 3% to 1.5% for full payment and eliminates 2% discount for two-thirds payment.

Existing law requires $544.6 million in budget cuts for the 2003-2005 budget period if Ballot Measure 30 is not enacted.

Committee Members: Appointed by:
Representative Dan Doyle Chief Petitioners
Representative Dennis Richardson Chief Petitioners
Senator Ryan Deckert* Secretary of State
Representative Lane Shetterly* Secretary of State
Jeffrey Standen Members of the Committee

*Member dissents (does not concur with explanatory statement)

(This committee was appointed to provide an impartial explanation of the ballot measure pursuant to ORS 251.215.)

smooth · 02-05-2004, 12:38 AM

I haven't gone through both sites, but these seem to be the pro and against main sites:

pro: http://www.yeson30.com/

against: http://www.stoporegontax.com/

mystmarimatt · 02-05-2004, 02:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lebell
To put this in concrete terms:

It means kids will have less school supplies, like paper, glue, and books.

It means cuts in music and art programs.

It means larger class sizes and less time for individual instrution.

It means fewer teachers and not even a cost of living raise for those who remain.

Thank you Lebell, you're so level-headed it's almost frightening.
And, actually, the public schools are losing $285 Million, according to the bill. That means, my old school district, the Hillsboro School District,who would recieve the biggest percentage of that money, 19%, they have to cut about $54 million.

Last year, we had to cut about half that, and we lost 17 days of school in order to make up for it. and that's AFTER closing an elementary school and firing a good load of first year teachers.

Quote:

Originally posted by Ustwo
I'm sure they will do just fine.

Less government rarely hurts.

Ustwo, that DOES make a difference, we weren't, and aren't fine. This is serious for us.

the Oregon University System recieves only about $15 million from this package, but generally speaking, that's the same as one of the school districts, besides HSD, so it hurts us quite a bit too.

Lastly, smooth

Quote:

Originally posted by smooth
At SOU last year, we had a 5% cut across the board--that's every department. Students had to print their own syllabus (I know it's seems minor, but that's how barebones the cuts are going). That is, we've been making things "lean" for the past decade. In the words of one professor, There ain't no more to cut, bub! [/B]

You're also a part of Southern? are you a teacher or student?

smooth · 02-05-2004, 02:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by mystmarimatt
Lastly, smooth

You're also a part of Southern? are you a teacher or student?

I completed my undergrad at Southern. Now I'm back in So Cal.

LewisCouch · 02-05-2004, 06:28 AM

Oregon was and continues to be one of the most fiscally irresponsible states in the union. Like some of you who are directly affected by taxation, I chose to leave the state. Until serious tax reform takes place, including the sacred PERS sytem, Oregon's citizens will continue to suffer the consequences.

sexymama · 02-05-2004, 06:45 AM

This is very difficult for me! Some of you may have seen my rant in a post about why people don't like to pay taxes, in general. As a kindergarten teacher (1/2 time) I will loose my assistant. I already have more students then I've ever had before due to having to cut teaching positions in the last few years. Without an assistant I'm wondering how I will deal with: the special needs child that is not yet identified; getting simple things like snack done and tying shoes while still teaching; meeting the individual needs of children; getting kids to the bathroom; and on and on. We will have less supplies and more demand. Parents are not able to volunteer for the most part; they are working to support their families. It is a very grim situation!

The district I work for has 3 elementary (down from 6 -- the rural school were all closed), 1 middle and 1 high school. Each elementary school has approx. 625 students. With measure 30 not passing there will need to be about 45 lay offs of teaching staff! Already at the middle school class size is over 30. At the high school this means no sports programs, no talented and gifted/excelled classes. We will be offering the bare minimum in the way of education.

Just to set the record straight. Measure 30 was not a pernament tax increase. It was a temporary sir charge on income tax until the economy improves. The failure of this measure is a sad day for students throughout the state! (As well as the safety of all citizens and healthcare of many.)

Ustwo · 02-05-2004, 08:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lebell
To put this in concrete terms:

It means kids will have less school supplies, like paper, glue, and books.

It means cuts in music and art programs.

It means larger class sizes and less time for individual instrution.

It means fewer teachers and not even a cost of living raise for those who remain.

That, Ustwo, is what it really means.

And those are just the effects I happen to know about.

Now please tell me how any of these are a "good" thing?

Labelle states play a game. Its called 'Won't someone please think of the children', at least thats what I call it. What they do is fund EVERYTHING else, pork and all, and THEN get to the schools. That way they can say 'we have no money for the schools, we MUST raise taxes.' If you did it the other way around and said 'we have no money for the resurfacing of highway 31, and new tennis courts at the park in state rep Y's district'' you would find a lot less caring. If the state is 800 MILLION in the hole someone somewhere really fucked up and cuts NEED to be made.

Why does it cost so much more now as a percentage then before?

Lebell · 02-05-2004, 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ustwo
Lebell states play a game. Its called 'Won't someone please think of the children', at least thats what I call it. What they do is fund EVERYTHING else, pork and all, and THEN get to the schools. That way they can say 'we have no money for the schools, we MUST raise taxes.' If you did it the other way around and said 'we have no money for the resurfacing of highway 31, and new tennis courts at the park in state rep Y's district'' you would find a lot less caring. If the state is 800 MILLION in the hole someone somewhere really fucked up and cuts NEED to be made.

I cannot say for certain that there is pork funded elsewhere, but then again, neither can you.

Quote:

Why does it cost so much more now as a percentage then before?

Are you really asking for a lesson in basic macro economics?

smooth · 02-05-2004, 10:57 AM

One thing to say is that this isn't a new issue: voters have been rejecting tax increases for the past 10 years (that's about the extent of my experience with Oregon).

There are a number of things that contributed to the fiscal crisis, besides irresponsibility (although I don't deny that it might be an issue):

The logging industry was essentially shut down. Most of Oregon is forest and just about half the state lived and worked in the logging industry. For a variety of reasons, the economy hasn't yet shifted from mills to something else--whatever that may be. Thus, the towns in the southern half of the state are shutting down and transforming into skeleton towns.

A few misguided criminal justice reforms put such strain on a struggling economy that it finally slipped over the edge.

The influx of retirees means that they have people on limited incomes voting against tax increases (remember that these retirees are also homeowners, the type of tax that exists in Oregon), not stimulating the economy as much as younger citizens would, not as supportive of schools as families and locals are, and basically gentrifying the southern economies.

I don't know, these are the things that I understood while living there. My grandparents seem to share my opinion on this subject, too. Of course, they're part of the problem. The interesting thing is that one of the projected economies Oregon is shifting to, is one that caters to this retirement crowd. That is, nature attractions, retirement centers, and geriatric care.

wilbjammin · 02-05-2004, 11:13 AM

A tax limitation measure passed in 1990. I don't have time to find the articles right now to share the specifics, but this whole issue can be traced to ballot Measure 5 and the likes of Bill Sizemore. Research on your own if you want, otherwise you'll have to wait for a follow-up post by me later this evening.

Ustwo · 02-05-2004, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lebell
I cannot say for certain that there is pork funded elsewhere, but then again, neither can you.

I can say for certain that they are going to mention not enough money for the schools before doing any real cuts. Thats how they work.

Quote:

Are you really asking for a lesson in basic macro economics?

Yes please. If say taxes were 10% (just a round number) 10 years ago why would they need say 15% today to do the same thing? Its not as if income froze while inflation continued and todays 10% would be more then 10 years ago 10% based soley on inflation.

Lebell · 02-05-2004, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ustwo

Yes please. If say taxes were 10% (just a round number) 10 years ago why would they need say 15% today to do the same thing? Its not as if income froze while inflation continued and todays 10% would be more then 10 years ago 10% based soley on inflation.

Very well, taxes may be at 10% (Oregon doesn't have sales tax, btw), but there are fewer companies to pay the tax (as has been mentioned). Property tax has also been fairly flat.

But there has been no corresponding decrease in number of students in the various districts.

And inflation to the mix and you have a net negative growth of funding to services.

smooth · 02-05-2004, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ustwo
I can say for certain that they are going to mention not enough money for the schools before doing any real cuts. Thats how they work.

Yes please. If say taxes were 10% (just a round number) 10 years ago why would they need say 15% today to do the same thing? Its not as if income froze while inflation continued and todays 10% would be more then 10 years ago 10% based soley on inflation.

Are you reading our posts?

There hasn't been a tax increase in 14 years.

BTW, it is as if income froze--because it has.

Forgot to add:

I think you missed the part regarding the effect of the logging freeze. This isn't only a case of inflation versus revenue.

The logging industry was the primary source of income for the state, now that's gone and they haven't developed new ways to make up for the loss yet. Oregon has experienced a loss of revenue over the past decade while not instituting higher taxes. I'm not saying that's wrong, just that expenditures are going to outpace revenue eventually regardless of inflation and holdnig all else equal.

sexymama · 02-05-2004, 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ustwo
I can say for certain that they are going to mention not enough money for the schools before doing any real cuts. Thats how they work.

Truth is, schools in Oregon have been being hit for the last three years. This is not a new threat! Every district is down to the minimum. I just learned today that my very small district is loosing 2.1 million dollars.

There is no slush fund in Oregon because there is a manditory "kicker" in which we are given back any extra funds through rebates. Therefore, there is nothing to fall back on in this difficult economy.

Also, taxes have not only not increased, they have decreased since 1992 (percentage). The reason for that is in ballot measure 5, there is a clause that states that tax payers may not be taxed more than what was budgeted, even if cost of living increases and that the budget from last year can not exceed the previous year's budget.

Oregonions that whine about taxes need to face reality, imho. We pay a low $30 fee for license tabs. We pay property tax somewhat similar to California -- maybe even lower. We pay no sales tax. Luxury taxes only go so far. I am wondering why people don't want to pay for the many privilages we have!

When I first moved to Oregon, in 1992, I was very impressed with the quality of education and services. Now I am disappointed. Maybe I should move to Denver?

hammer4all · 02-05-2004, 06:38 PM

Well, here is a study on Oregon tax policy. As in most states, the poor pay a higher share of their income than the rich. I don't know how Measure 30 would have affected this.

http://www.itepnet.org/wp2000/or%20pr.pdf

Of course, Bush's tax cut doesn't help -- it just makes the tax system even more regressive...

http://www.ctj.org/pdf/gwbor.pdf

Bill O'Rights · 02-06-2004, 07:04 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by sexymama
Oregonions that whine about taxes need to face reality, imho. We pay a low $30 fee for license tabs. We pay property tax somewhat similar to California -- maybe even lower. We pay no sales tax.

Do some comparisons against Nebraska, for those that whine. I just paid $89 to relicense my 1977 Chevy pick-up. I'm going to have to shell out $165 to relicense my wife's 1997 Saturn. We have property, income and sales tax, coupled with user's fees and sur charges. If you want, sexymama, I'll dig up some hard figures and percentages for you. I just don't want to think about it right now.

filtherton · 02-06-2004, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by chavos
By electing Gov. Pawlenty, Minnesotans have ratified a similar plan....its disturbing to say the least. My mother is a teacher, and it appears that her job is once again in jeopardy. never mind that they're understaffed already... what part of "critical economic investment" do people not understand?

Yep, i know all about p'shawlenty and his "no new taxes(at least on the state level if you don't take into account fee increases)" plan. How many day care centers have closed since he "balanced" the budget?
The only "critical economic investmen" some people care to make is to their own bank accounts at the expense of the general public.

sexymama · 02-10-2004, 07:58 PM

Another fact I just learned about measure 30 is that Oregon is the first state in over 10 years, as a result of 30, to lower cigarette tax by $.10 a pack. Now there is just something wrong there. (Sorry smokers, but you do cost more in the way of health care.)

Arsenic7 · 02-10-2004, 08:34 PM

As a student of OSU and resident of Oregon since....forever, this really sucks. 5 public schools have already been shut down in my home town because of the budget crisis and the failure of measure 30 means I'm going to be paying about 200 more dollars a term to go to school. Ug, what are we going to do now?

james t kirk · 02-11-2004, 06:51 AM

It would seem that every state in the Union is in financial hot water.

It might help if people were told where the money actually went. How much to each department, and where that money was allocated. Otherwise, people just think that the money is being wasted in some bureaucracy somewhere and the politicians are threatening to make cuts only where they will feel it the most rather than where they will feel it the least.

I also can't believe that Oregon doesn't have a state sales tax. Seems to me, there's a source of revenue right there. A nice 7% sales tax would be hard to beat and would probably give you a nice injection of revenue.

Also, 10 cents a pack tax increase on smokes is rediculous. Try a buck. That will bring in some money. Smokers will still smoke, that's for sure. I have no pity for them and their cancer sticks.

Everywhere, the situation is the same, everybody wants the good life, but nobody wants to pay for it. In a way, this is just another example of the failure of liberalism. The ideal of everyone investing towards the betterment of the society as a whole has gone right out the window. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer and the rich like that just fine. They get to keep their money and the get a good source of "keep em dumb, keep em stupid, and keep em working". Meanwhile, their kids are shipped off to private schools for the best education possible.

Phaenx · 02-11-2004, 07:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lebell
To put this in concrete terms:

It means kids will have less school supplies, like paper, glue, and books.

It means cuts in music and art programs.

It means larger class sizes and less time for individual instrution.

It means fewer teachers and not even a cost of living raise for those who remain.

That, Ustwo, is what it really means.

And those are just the effects I happen to know about.

Now please tell me how any of these are a "good" thing?

Public schools kind of suck anyhow. Privatize and regulate the system I say, or go with homeschooling.

Boo · 02-14-2004, 05:19 PM

Alaska seems to always need bush teachers. There are large numbers of Oregonians that work in AK in the summer. It is the most seen out of state plate up here.

http://www.alaska.edu/atp/teachers/vacancies.htm

Some places are nice, some are not.

What about a DODs teacher for overseas? Okinawa had a very nice COLA package.

02-04-2004, 02:43 PM	#3 (permalink)
Mojo_PeiPei Kiss of Death Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow	Is it cut on the growth? Because I guarentee that those programs will not lose a dime unless they are cancelled. __________________ To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

02-04-2004, 03:15 PM	#4 (permalink)
Lokus I can't think of a good title Location: East Bay Area, CA	You think that's bad? Try taking a look down south a bit. Also, I'm curious what your job is too. __________________ The black wind howls...

02-04-2004, 03:39 PM	#5 (permalink)
Scipio Mencken Location: College	Mabye he wants to work in government. Or teaching. __________________ "Erections lasting more than 4 hours, though rare, require immediate medical attention."

02-04-2004, 08:13 PM	#8 (permalink)
Mojo_PeiPei Kiss of Death Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow	Again I will ask, are they cutting increases in spending? Or decreasing money overall? I.e. instead of 7% growth for the programs, is it down to 4%? Or will the programs get less funding this year then last? __________________ To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

02-04-2004, 11:00 PM	#15 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes	I'm sure they will do just fine. Less government rarely hurts. __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

02-04-2004, 08:57 PM	#10 (permalink)
filtherton Junkie Location: In the land of ice and snow.	At least a majority of oregoninians support their own economic downfall. That's what democracy is all about.

02-05-2004, 12:26 AM	#17 (permalink)
smooth Junkie Location: Right here	Let's take it a bit further, Lebell, My niece (7 years old) only goes to school from Tuesday to Friday. I think my sister-in-law can pay extra for the "extra" day of instruction. The schools were already having trouble, imagine her state of education once she graduates with this approx. year less of instruction (cumulative days off each week, haven't bothered to calculate it). The better teachers (and graduates) are recruited to other states--a situation called a "brain drain." Many local communities are closing primary schools. In Ashland, the community made a choice to close a primary school, not rebuild a middle school, and send the middle schoolers to high school on shifting schedules. At SOU last year, we had a 5% cut across the board--that's every department. Students had to print their own syllabus (I know it's seems minor, but that's how barebones the cuts are going). That is, we've been making things "lean" for the past decade. In the words of one professor, There ain't no more to cut, bub! __________________ "The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann "You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman

02-05-2004, 12:31 AM	#18 (permalink)
juanvaldes Banned Location: shittown, CA	wilbjammin: how much of a tax increase would have this been? $1000 a year? more? less?

02-05-2004, 12:38 AM	#20 (permalink)
smooth Junkie Location: Right here	I haven't gone through both sites, but these seem to be the pro and against main sites: pro: http://www.yeson30.com/ against: http://www.stoporegontax.com/ __________________ "The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann "You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman

02-05-2004, 06:28 AM	#23 (permalink)
LewisCouch Insane Location: Pacific NW	Oregon was and continues to be one of the most fiscally irresponsible states in the union. Like some of you who are directly affected by taxation, I chose to leave the state. Until serious tax reform takes place, including the sacred PERS sytem, Oregon's citizens will continue to suffer the consequences. __________________ "The gift of liberty is like that of a horse, handsome, strong, and high-spirited. In some it arouses a wish to ride; in many others, on the contrary, it increases the desire to walk." -- Massimo d'Azeglio

02-05-2004, 06:45 AM	#24 (permalink)
sexymama My own person -- his by choice Location: Lebell's arms	This is very difficult for me! Some of you may have seen my rant in a post about why people don't like to pay taxes, in general. As a kindergarten teacher (1/2 time) I will loose my assistant. I already have more students then I've ever had before due to having to cut teaching positions in the last few years. Without an assistant I'm wondering how I will deal with: the special needs child that is not yet identified; getting simple things like snack done and tying shoes while still teaching; meeting the individual needs of children; getting kids to the bathroom; and on and on. We will have less supplies and more demand. Parents are not able to volunteer for the most part; they are working to support their families. It is a very grim situation! The district I work for has 3 elementary (down from 6 -- the rural school were all closed), 1 middle and 1 high school. Each elementary school has approx. 625 students. With measure 30 not passing there will need to be about 45 lay offs of teaching staff! Already at the middle school class size is over 30. At the high school this means no sports programs, no talented and gifted/excelled classes. We will be offering the bare minimum in the way of education. Just to set the record straight. Measure 30 was not a pernament tax increase. It was a temporary sir charge on income tax until the economy improves. The failure of this measure is a sad day for students throughout the state! (As well as the safety of all citizens and healthcare of many.) __________________ If you can go deeply into lovemaking, the ego disappears. That is the beauty of lovemaking, that it is another source of a glimpse of god It's not about being perfect; it's about developing some skill at managing imperfection.

02-05-2004, 10:57 AM	#27 (permalink)
smooth Junkie Location: Right here	One thing to say is that this isn't a new issue: voters have been rejecting tax increases for the past 10 years (that's about the extent of my experience with Oregon). There are a number of things that contributed to the fiscal crisis, besides irresponsibility (although I don't deny that it might be an issue): The logging industry was essentially shut down. Most of Oregon is forest and just about half the state lived and worked in the logging industry. For a variety of reasons, the economy hasn't yet shifted from mills to something else--whatever that may be. Thus, the towns in the southern half of the state are shutting down and transforming into skeleton towns. A few misguided criminal justice reforms put such strain on a struggling economy that it finally slipped over the edge. The influx of retirees means that they have people on limited incomes voting against tax increases (remember that these retirees are also homeowners, the type of tax that exists in Oregon), not stimulating the economy as much as younger citizens would, not as supportive of schools as families and locals are, and basically gentrifying the southern economies. I don't know, these are the things that I understood while living there. My grandparents seem to share my opinion on this subject, too. Of course, they're part of the problem. The interesting thing is that one of the projected economies Oregon is shifting to, is one that caters to this retirement crowd. That is, nature attractions, retirement centers, and geriatric care. __________________ "The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann "You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman

02-05-2004, 11:13 AM	#28 (permalink)
wilbjammin * * *	A tax limitation measure passed in 1990. I don't have time to find the articles right now to share the specifics, but this whole issue can be traced to ballot Measure 5 and the likes of Bill Sizemore. Research on your own if you want, otherwise you'll have to wait for a follow-up post by me later this evening. __________________ Innominate.

02-05-2004, 06:38 PM	#33 (permalink)
hammer4all Insane	Well, here is a study on Oregon tax policy. As in most states, the poor pay a higher share of their income than the rich. I don't know how Measure 30 would have affected this. http://www.itepnet.org/wp2000/or%20pr.pdf Of course, Bush's tax cut doesn't help -- it just makes the tax system even more regressive... http://www.ctj.org/pdf/gwbor.pdf

02-10-2004, 07:58 PM	#36 (permalink)
sexymama My own person -- his by choice Location: Lebell's arms	Another fact I just learned about measure 30 is that Oregon is the first state in over 10 years, as a result of 30, to lower cigarette tax by $.10 a pack. Now there is just something wrong there. (Sorry smokers, but you do cost more in the way of health care.) __________________ If you can go deeply into lovemaking, the ego disappears. That is the beauty of lovemaking, that it is another source of a glimpse of god It's not about being perfect; it's about developing some skill at managing imperfection.

02-10-2004, 08:34 PM	#37 (permalink)
Arsenic7 Insane Location: Corvallis, OR.	As a student of OSU and resident of Oregon since....forever, this really sucks. 5 public schools have already been shut down in my home town because of the budget crisis and the failure of measure 30 means I'm going to be paying about 200 more dollars a term to go to school. Ug, what are we going to do now? __________________ This is no sig.

02-11-2004, 06:51 AM	#38 (permalink)
james t kirk Junkie Location: Toronto	It would seem that every state in the Union is in financial hot water. It might help if people were told where the money actually went. How much to each department, and where that money was allocated. Otherwise, people just think that the money is being wasted in some bureaucracy somewhere and the politicians are threatening to make cuts only where they will feel it the most rather than where they will feel it the least. I also can't believe that Oregon doesn't have a state sales tax. Seems to me, there's a source of revenue right there. A nice 7% sales tax would be hard to beat and would probably give you a nice injection of revenue. Also, 10 cents a pack tax increase on smokes is rediculous. Try a buck. That will bring in some money. Smokers will still smoke, that's for sure. I have no pity for them and their cancer sticks. Everywhere, the situation is the same, everybody wants the good life, but nobody wants to pay for it. In a way, this is just another example of the failure of liberalism. The ideal of everyone investing towards the betterment of the society as a whole has gone right out the window. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer and the rich like that just fine. They get to keep their money and the get a good source of "keep em dumb, keep em stupid, and keep em working". Meanwhile, their kids are shipped off to private schools for the best education possible. Last edited by james t kirk; 02-11-2004 at 06:58 AM..

02-14-2004, 05:19 PM	#40 (permalink)
Boo Leave me alone! Location: Alaska, USA	Alaska seems to always need bush teachers. There are large numbers of Oregonians that work in AK in the summer. It is the most seen out of state plate up here. http://www.alaska.edu/atp/teachers/vacancies.htm Some places are nice, some are not. What about a DODs teacher for overseas? Okinawa had a very nice COLA package. __________________ Back button again, I must be getting old.