African American? You betcha!
 

Well, what do we have here? It seems as though a few enterprising young minds have found a loophole in the system to show us all how stupid we're being. Bravo for them, says I. What the article failed to mention was that the award centers around Martin Luther King, Jr. Day. Martin Luther King Jr. spoke with compassion about the brutal truth that America faced during the fight for Civil Rights. He did not mince words. In his famous speech he gave in August of 1963 he said "I have a dream that my four children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character" This sure sounds like what he wanted, and rightfully so...color to be a non-issue in our everyday life.

Suspended for 2 days?
For publicly and truthfully displaying his heritage?
I predict that, immediately following a meeting of lawyers, the student will be readmitted, with apologies.

Along the same lines - I was born in the United States. Anyone know of any Native American contest I can enter?

Asinine, pure asinine.

just more proof that it's all a game. Let's see what we can get the white guys to call us this week. At first, black was offensive, negro was what we should use. then negro was offensive and black was not. Then it was "people of color" and if you said black, you were racist, even though last week if you DIDN'T say black, you were racist. Now it's african-american, which is the stupidest of them all. I actually got chewed out for not referring to a black guy as an african american. Never mind the fact that he was from Jamaica. Until we stop focusing on all this politically correct bullshit, we'll continue to have huge race problems in this country.

Oy.

I can see rolling your eyes and taking the fliers down, but suspending the students? That seems a bit much.

They (the PC school administration) can't have it both ways - calling it African-American but meaning Black.

When I get upset about stuff like this, I remember that we're one, maybe two generations out from the civil rights movement, and we're still negotiating a lot of boundaries and trying to figure out how to be deal with issues of race and identity. We may just have to go through this foolishness to get to the other side.

This raises interesting questions about how you acknowledge legitimate differences in culture and experience without erasing commonality? It's a tricky border to negotiate. And I agree, good for these students for pointing out the line and how absurdly we behave trying to pretend it's not there.

10 points for creativity. Now, the questions that arise in my mind are:

Was he serious when he wanted the award?
Was he trying to prove a point?
Or, Was he just trying to be a jerk?


And oh yeah.....Hoorah for loopholes

i'm an American - period!!!

go to www.blackamericaweb.com if you want to know what black people call each other.

and give me a freakin' break, PC police

Must we drain all the color out of the world so the masses can see things more clearly? I think so!

I'm not an Irish American, Polish American or the many places that my ancestors came from. I'm American period. This labeling has to stop.

I don't get why there was competition only open to black people in the first place...

I mean, imagine the uproar that would be caused if someone started a "White Person of the Year Award".

"Reverse Racism" (dumbest phrase in the history of language) is still racism.

I think that was the point of why these little "juvenile delinquents" did what they did. It is well beyond the point of ridiculous.

100% thru and thru

I think its pretty simple. If you live in the U.S. you are an American.
If you want to be called anything else move there. I'm not trying to be insensitive to anyone but I do not try to pawn myself off as Euro-American because my family originates from Europe.

Political Correctness does nothing but promote unspoken racism, both ways. By opening the door to just one skin color, you close the door to all others - isn't that what racial segregation is all about?

This is just an example of "African" being a term associated with "Black", and since this kid is "White", he is blocked from participation on that basis alone - on the basis of skin color.

This is dumber than dumb, and is insulting to everyone involved. If they just said outright that this was a "Black award", not an "African-American award", perhaps much embarassment would have been prevented. Or would that sound too non-PC?

Labels are constantly changing. Someday maybe we won't need them anymore. They become offensive eventually. All labels wear out over time and people feel the need to update them. Its just silly. Then groups will also invent new labels and pretend that the group has never existed before:

Metrosexuals
Quirkyalones
PoMoSexuals
Brights

etc.

Labels are getting ridiculous. When a label becomes offensive it perhaps shows us our insecurities. Being called a black guy becomes offensive when it conjours up unfair stereotypes. So we change black to African-American as if it will erase unfair stereotypes. As soon as that label becomes tainted by some bad stereotypes, we'll have to find a new label, as if that will get rid of racism.

For better or worse I brain functions on stereotypes. It is how we organize our thoughts, how we assess situations, and survive on an instinctual level. Pretending that we can acheive some level where we will no longer judge someone on past experiences with like individuals, does the cause no good. We will always do it. We will always inherently pre-judge. What we won't always do is condemn based on our prejudices. We can use stereotypes to make guesses about people, but what we need to move to is the idea that "yes these are only guesses". Racism comes from thinking these "guesses" are "facts". Playing the label game is an attempt to stay ahead of the racism game, when in reality its nipping at your heels all the time. Its running from a shadow. Instead of changing a label from black to African-American, just keep proving that black is something positive and the negative stereotypes will eventually show that they were just "guesses" all along.

Does a label change a human being?

I've often wondered what 'black' people are called / want to be called in other countries. I doubt they lable themselves / are labled African - Fillinthecountry. It's just stupid. Either you're American or you aren't. I mean, you can be black and from the Carribian, Africa, Europe, anywhere, same goes for every other skin color.

We'd just argue over shades of grey. *sigh*

I always got a kick out of this wonderful aspect of our society. My room-mate was from South Africa, but was never allowed to claim African heritage or any of those benefits due to his caucasion skin.

I have mentioned this on another similar thread. When I was in High School, they had the Latino Club, Chinese Club, Indian Club, African American Club, etc.......a good friend of mine wanted to prove a point, so she tried to start the Aryan Club, but was forced to resign her ideas or be expelled from school, permanently. Her point was not to ruffle feathers of the other clubs, but to prove that the clubs thay had in place were reverse racism. Yes, white people were allowed to join the other clubs, but they weren't allowed to create their own forum. Interesting how oversensitive administrators continue to try and NOT be racist, but pull shit like this....

He's more "African" than any Black American born here. Sounds like the school needs to update their designation of the award for black people to keep up. I mean they have the Unite Negro College Fund. I don't see anyone bitching about that. They have the Black Caucus. They have the NAACP. three different names for black organizations describing black people. No wonder you can't figure it out...they can't even agree!

avenue q song:

Everyone's A Little Bit Racist

What about people from the Arabic parts of Africa such as Egypt who have lighter skin? Would they still be African-Americans in this case? Or would they be lumped into the "Middle-Eastern" category? They should say what they really mean, even if it means being "Politically Incorrect". If they mean the "Black people from Africa Award" then say it, but if they say African-American then it's blatant racial discrimination against anyone from Africa who's not black.

Hell, if I was that South African-American student I'd sue the school for two things:
a) Racial discrimination
b) Being suspended without a good cause, which caused him to miss out on valuable learning time

If the school wants to be assholes, two can play at that game I say.

I really liked the part in the movie Bullworth when the character bullworth said during a tv interview that we should all just fuck each other till there isn't anymore seperation of race, we'll be all mixed in together. (not an exact quote, the movie was much funnier and poignant)

If we're all americans, what does that make people from canada, mexico, central and south america?? they are all americans in the strictest sense of word as well...

(Edit: after re-reading (or perhaps just plain reading) BoR's original post, I noted that I misunderstood his intent.)

Creating an award to celebrate a black persons achievments is all fine and good, but let's call it what it is. Is Trevor not an african american? He is a south african native who is now an american, thus an african american. By disallowing Trevor to take part in this award is segregating this award.

In a perfect world, awards would not be needed in specific social groups, they would be open to any and all. I feel King's ultimate goal is not that black people be treated the same as white people but that *all* people be treated equally, and the high-school is not helping this at all.

What gets to me most.. is... When I say I'm american do you think White? Do you think Grey? Do you think Brown? Do you think Yellow with blue squares and green poka dots? NO!!! You don't!! So why the hell do you have to think BLACK (even though technically you're a pinkish color or a bown color..) when its Africa? Where you are born is your culture, and that person is culterally an african now american. You CAN be an African White Guy.... it doesn't make a damn fucking difference.

The guy who said he wanted to enter Native American contests? Sorry man, but I do recall we didn't JOIN them Native Americans but pushed them out of our way as we wanted their land... Beyond that, this is the United States, not Native America.... the kid was from Africa... so he entered something that dealt with his homeland... Africa.

Also, I too find it disturbing that it was an MLK event and they suspended a person for their color.. that goes against the entire thing in the first place.

On a further note, my neighbor is black and his wife is white.. they have two daughters.. one is a tan color.. the other is 'whiter' than I am.. and her dad is black. She has more background to "blacks" (ugh I hate having to put it this way) than I do.. even though in a color sense.. I am darker than her (even though I'm obviously a "cracker") ((I'm allowed to make fun of myself here, so blehg! :D))

On a further Further note (This would be edited add-in number 2 :D), If we can call every person a HUMAN BEING.. how the fuck do we discriminate somone as "lesser".. you're human.. they're human... I don't see a difference.

A few years ago I saw a news story on TV about race in other countries. They actually referred to a black man in London as an African-American. I think that was when I lost all hope in the future.

Whenever I am filling in a form that asks for race I write in "human." (except for medical forms where race on very rare occasions can be relevent)

The sad thing is this kind of racism is accepted, and some of us with an open mind might close the door a little bit more every time something like this happens. It's stuff like this that makes me wish people would just relax and stop being such pricks about life.

i dotn see why after all this time the black community is still bugged by things like this, I dont see anythign wrong with what was done, and noone should have taken offence

I'm a mutt.

I think a lot of people are.

Reverse discrimination is WAAAAY wrong.

Can't we all just get along?

I'm not White.

Hey! I was going to give a link to the song as well, after reading this. 20 cool points to Cyn.

it should have been called Black, not African American. I have a friend that got pissed off whenever someone referred to her as an African American because she was Jamaican.

can you post the link to this news article? thanks

Ok, so the general consensus in here is that the whole "reverse discrimination" issue is bullshit, and that special privledges to any non-white is bullshit, and that what happened in the school is bullshit. A few weeks ago a similar thread broke out on Fark and of the hundreds of comments submitted, most if not all were of the same mind as people here.

So, why is it that if you say any of this stuff outside the sanctity of an internet message board, you get blasted from all sides?

TFP and Fark are very diverse communities, so you'd think we'd get at least SOME resistance to our opinions, but we aren't. That indicates, to me anyway, that our way of thinking is gaining popularity amongst the population (something I predicted would happen 20 years ago when Affirmative Action started being misused), yet so far very few people have been willing to say it out loud, in public. I find that interesting. . .

In my personal experience, whenever there's descrimination against a caucasian, it's never called 'racism'. Racism, apparently, is only when it's against a visible minority. Silly, huh.

Affirmative ACtion is fucking bullshit. Unbelievable that something like this can actually take place.

Uh. Why was the kid suspended? Last time I checked South Africa was still in Africa. That kid and his parents should sue the school system and/or state.

Exactly, they were totally unjustified in suspending him. I can accept making him take down the fliers, but they are totally unjustified in suspending him. He should get them back by suing the fuckers for emotional damage or something equally stupid.

I insist upon being called "European American" because my ancestors came from Europe.

Then again, Europeans came from nomadic tribes that eventually can be traced back to Africa.

Hmmm,

It seems we're all African Americans.



(yes, it's stupid)

It goes a bit deeper than that, and I can understand the views of the "African-Americans" in this instance and those others that tried to get their buddy nominated are totally in the wrong.

Regardless of what you PC people want to think, they are wrong because they are trying to make a point on what they think is an injustice and unfair.

*Point-fucking time*
(OOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHHH, I gonna shred this!! Here it comes..)

People like this really need to take a good look at themselves and ask "What am I doing? What am I trying to say or prove?"

(These idiots just robbed part of a script from "Soul Man" with C. Thomas Howell.)
Are they trying to get into "some" club with "one of their own".

Are they trying to be Politically Correct and found someone they think "qualifies" as their definition "African-American"?

(By finding someone an "Caucasian" African and nominate him for an award CLEARLY dedicated for the "Americans of AFRICAN decent" is making a mockery of the whole thing and SHOULD be expelled for being "insensitive".) How are they being that? Why should they be suspended?

I can give one reason: If they thought the award should include anyone who also shows the trait one must have to win it, WHY DID THEY NOT pick anyone else, even themselves to be nominated?
(NOOOOO, they had to go and get someone who was African...) INSENSITIVITY, very blatant..

What they were doing was sending a message, a real fucked up one. Trying to find a point where they can "turn the tables" and point a finger, saying the how racist the whole organization is because they can't get into the "club" they shouldn't be trying to join in the first place!!

You might want to think I am speaking because I am a Black.
(Yes, but I see myself as AMERICAN more than even being Black.)

Did they really think an African who is caucasian is a candidate for an award designed and embodies awareness and recognition of the trials, tribulations and struggles of the BLACK AMERICANS and their DECENDANTS? (Three words: Hell-fucking-NO.)

Still can't understand why they were expelled?

*History lesson time*

Just being from Africa isn't an automatic qualifying point.

(What the hell were they thinking?) You know, you all want to point and claim "reverse racisim", but lets pull all stops out and really look closely.

Lets go one step further and take a timewarp to the late "'50's - 60's".
(Now you just might want to think I am calling "sides" but this is where we all get to see why he shouldn't be there in the first place...)
Let's play this game called FACTS:

(and you'll see the unwritten meaning of recognition this award and what disqualifies him in the first place. He shouldn't be there in the first place..)

1) He and I, standing in a park, I am thirsty and so is he. If I drank from the fountain that he just drank from, what would happen? (You know, the one marked "WHITES ONLY"..)

2) He and I, get on a bus, who can sit where he pleases, and who has to sit in the back. (God forbid, if the bus got full, then who would be forced to give up his seat so a "Caucasian" can sit down?

3) They KKK corners "us" on a road, somewhere on the country-side? WHO would get lynched? (I think he wouldn't like to volunteer that information he's from Africa right then.) How many Caucasians were lynched because of the color of skin?

I think you see the picture now, so let's fast forward to today:

1) He and I apply for college,(ex: Yale, Yeshiva, Harvard...) who more likely will be accepted and who will recieve a background check?

2) He and I goes to the same job interview, who'll most likely to get the job without having to have a drug-test before hand?

3) He and I, standing on a street corner, the police rolls up, who will more likely will the police check and ask identification for?

Let me not get carried away, I know you see my point... Too easy to pull "that" card, huh.

But, that is the truth of how it goes...

Now, let me tell you what that award is for.

It isn't about being Black, or African American. It isn't an exclusive award targeting a specific club.

It is awarded to an African American that best exhibits a postive attitude in their contributions in their school work, sets example for his or her peers, and shows promise in face of the racial "restrictions" that are STILL being oppressed on their lives TO THIS DATE.

Now, in this case, their point is that his ONLY qualification for nomination is that he's from Africa?
(To point-fuck, he isn't American to boot..) If you agree to this plight and thing it's reverse-racism, you obviously MISSED the point....

This isn't about the award, this isn't about MLK. People should look at them right in their faces and see these people are wrong,
and tell them that, point-blank.

Very good. This has received about the response that I expected that it would.

I quoted this story from Omaha's KETV website Click here to see the story

Now, I'm going to throw a little more information into the mix.
Westside High School is a very wealthy, very prestigious and extremely "snooty" school. Very few children of parents making less than six figures go to Westside. Yet keep in mind that even though Westside is still considered a "public school", it does not fall under the auspices of the Omaha Public School District. They are their own seperate entity. According to state records, Westside has fewer than 70 blacks out of 1,843 students enrolled this year.

Does that change the flavor of the stew?

Yeah why not, give the South African dude an award...

How about the "First annual PW Botha award for outstanding achievement in the field of asshattery"?

He gets a vibrating lounge chair in exchange for not trying to sue Nelson Mandela in an American court for taking away his racial privileges.

Evolutionists have believed ( for quite some time) that we're all African in origin.....

Chew on that awhile

No. Having a relatively low minority population does not give an institution the right to be racist. If it's wrong, it's wrong no matter what the demographics are.

Fuckin Labels! They cause so much shit!

http://207.218.133.47/np_0/medium/123sqwside1.jpg
The poster in question

LINK

I disagree wholeheartedly Buddah. What they were doing is the very essence of education. However, it seems that they were trying to educate the teachers and administrators on how stupid an African-American award really is if it doesn't include a caucasuian African-American. Yes, it seems they were trying to make a political point. Was it a "fucked up" message? No! Were they insensitive? No!

I don't believe the award was for Black Americans, it was for African Americans. There is a difference. These kids were trying to point out the difference.


*pulls up chair and listens intently*


Well, why not?
Hypothetical situation:
Suppose he moved here from Africa recently. Just suppose that he was a huge advocate for equal rights of all people, he lobbied for equality of all races, etc...while he lived in Africa. Wouldn't this be a justifiable reason to win the "African-American" award?

Well, the schools you mentioned, as well as many others, have quotas to fill with different races. Therefore, you will most likely be accepted before he does. He can have a better GPA, have been in more social clubs, and have come from a money background....you will still have a better chance of getting in. I do speak from experience here.


They have Human Resource departments these days which prevent pulling favor on particular candidates because of their cultural background. Yes, there are isolated cases where people still pull this shit, but when people find out, the companies are the ones that suffer. I have worked in the staffing inustry for 8 years, so again, I do speak from experience.

Again, you reference isolated incidents where cops have their heads thoroughly wedged up their asses! I don't blame you for your opinion of this situation, but come on...if they had reason to ask for your ID, whether white of black, they will. Don't use the mistakes of history to justify a generalized view of the police.

It's like a trump card.....you can pull it every time to prove that we had a shaky history. I regret what my forefather's have done to other cultures. But, I am not them. I don't think like they did. I don't act like they did. I believe all races are equal and we should continue to define ways that we can all just live in peace. Frankly, I am kind of tired of having the trump card pulled every time when I feel we are trying to move forward and get away from our mistakes of the past.


Perhaps, perhaps not....see my point above about possible contribution he could have made while in Africa. Again, it is hypothetical, but it serves to prove the invalidity of calling it an African American award.

<b>Buddah</b>,
I think everyone on this board knows that these were high school kids. And we all know high school kids can be both politically motivated and mischievous. However, their point was valid - to expose a racist contest. How can you argue that a contest open only to members of a certain race is not racist?

I think the reason you're seeing the kind of comments you're seeing on this board is because American Caucasians are fed up with being expected to feel guilty about events and practices that happened before they were born; and over which they had - and have - no control. Sometimes we feel “you doth protest too much.”

Yes - racism, to some extent - does still exist in this country - as a two-way street. But you're not being hacked to death with machetes, set on fire inside a stack of tires, or sold into slavery to mine diamonds just because you belong to the "wrong" tribe. In other countries - especially <i>African</i> countries, slavery and genocide are everyday occurrences.

Yes - it could be better here, but it could also be a lot worse. Racism is a result of divisive thought – and until the hyphen is lost, there will always be a division between Americans and African-Americans.
Come on in – the melting pot is fine.

You also continue to miss the "fine" print of the situation.

Look at the "blueprint" of why such an award is given to African-Americans and not the other way around. (You can run so many times AROUND what is there and try not to see it AND DEFEND them, but wrong is wrong, no matter how many times you want to turn it around..)

1) It is given during Black History Month... (An American holiday.)

2) It is suppose to reflect the struggles of the AMERICAN NEGRO against segregation and the AMERICAN BLACK CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT.

3) It also is supposed to be in memory of Martin Luther King, who fought for civil rights and equality for the African-Americans.

4) You shouldn't be making fun about a ceremony at "Such a prestigious school" in a state that JUST started to recognize MLK's birthday as a federal holiday. (What's up Arizona?)

You have a straight up case of insensitivity going on over there..

They should get rid of the award if they want to give another "crutch" to the African-Americans in that school...

And like I said, if they really wanted to make a point, why didn't they appoint themselves as possible candidates for the award? (Not go out and get a white African?)


*History lesson #2*

1) There is a big difference between an African who comes to the States to go to school in basically an all caucasian school and an African-American, who you think you fooling?

2) You try to defend the schools I mentioned by saying there is NOW a racial quota to fill so, I will most likely be accepted before him. (Well, isn't that a redundant little sentence?) *Question?* Why is there a racial quota and why was it made?

3)The "cop" situations I referred to, you didn't answer with a realistic answer. You try to justify it, but we ALL know the truth. Social society dictates it.
Don't try to pass it off as a cop with his head up his ass... (You obviously haven't watched many episodes of "COPS", huh...:))

4) Just last week, I went to a job interview. At this interview was another caucasian man, we both had applied THROUGH HUMAN RESOURCES online and both gotten called in. I put on my resume all my Finnish references, (I live in Finland..) and the guy lived in Yonkers. (He spoke more ghetto than I did.) After the testing, the manager walked up to me and said, "We currently don't have anything that is in your field at the moment. Your application will be on record for 6 months, if something comes up during that time, we wil get in contact with you. If nothing comes up after 6 months, come in and reply again, thank you..
As I said thank you and started putting my coat on, he turned to the other guy and said, "Well, Mr. ****, we have something that most likely be available for you because you have been consulting Nokia for how long? We have a client that would like some one who know wireless networking. How long have you lived in Finland?" I waited until he got hooked and then said, "Excuse me? I'm Mr. ****..."

Most of this I write in my replies are from what has been done to me, so I speak from experience too...

Instead of trying to get "away" from the mistakes of your forefather's past, maybe try to start CORRECTING THEM
FIRST.

BLACK AMERICANS or African- Americans have been through too much to have some people ridicule the honor of MLK and the struggles all their parents and foreparents. And those students should have sensitivity management done.

Them doing that was out of line. If they really wanted to make a statement, why not do it through the proper channels?

Yes, it is a sensitive matter and should not be made to ridicule.

Here's a point that will sting, but I'll say it to drive my point home about sensitivity:

Them doing it in that way is the same as someone:

Making an advertisement in Jewish newspaper "Stoves from Auschwitz are on sale" on the day of Holocast rememberance..

Someone on Ebay selling pieces of WTC "half price" on Sept. 11.

Having a KKK Rally Day in Harlem and they claim they can do it because of First Amendment guarantees it...

Going out your way to find some one who is white and from Africa to nominate him for an African-American award during Black History Month...

Yup! It ranks up there in the "insensitive" column....
(Now please don't take any of those examples OUT OF CONTEXT.

Because this is a self-selected population whose members share similar views and opinions.

I figured once a black person responded you'd start to see some difference of opinion. Strange how that works...

My guess was confirmed on the second page of this thread. I don't know the racial composition of the previous posters but, guessing from a normal distribution, I can surmise why it took so long for a dissenting opinion.

BTW, BuDDaH, thanx for restoring this thread from the tilt it was headed.

what a shit school eh? and what freaks me out even more is that I don't believe that this is the only school out there professing these segregating values

wow i hate this country with its politically currect bullshit

and Buddah, i really cant take anything you say seriously with that avatar of yours lol :D

Yeah, the jigglyness just isnt helping the cause at this point :)

And who had a "dream" that people would be judged on their merit and NOT by the color of their skin. That means that excluding anyone based on their color - no matter what that color is - goes against Dr. King's dream. I frankly think Dr. King would be profoundly disappointed at the progress of race relations in this country. As long as we continue to consider discrimination in favor of minorities as acceptable while discrimination in favor of whites is not (i.e., we have black awards, but no white awards, etc) we will continue to view the world in terms of race rather than personal merit.

For my part, I don't care what color you are. It frankly doesn't matter to me when I evaluate you as a person. If you're an asshole, then you're an asshole, whether you're black, white, or green. All whites are not racist. All blacks are not victims. Any attempt to classify someone based on their race is abject stupidity. It's time to move into a colorblind view of the world, where the individual, not the race, is what matters in people's judgement of each other.

If we continue to highlight, give special treatment to, or exclude people from ANYTHING based solely on their race, that won't ever happen and we'll continue to have racial problems.

So, do we want to wallow around in our own stupidity, continuing to make the non-issue of a person's race an issue when judging them, or do we want to mature, move forward, and start seeing each other as human beings rather than as various irrelevant colors?

shakran, I can understand your point and we can discuss it over and over, maybe even start another thread about it, but let's not hijack this thread but keep it on this topic...

Loopholes!! wow, i should get my friend Nate to go for that award.

Maybe I'd better read the WHOLE thread from the begining and then comment when I have a better idea of the thread.....

Affirmative Action isnt fair, it makes things unfair. Its as simple as that.

This is nothing like having a kkk rally in harlem. It doesn't sting cause it doesn't apply.

In attempting to be p.c. the school used a vague term, "african american" without clarifying what they meant(dark skinned americans of african descent as opposed to an american of african descent). Its their mistake.

Buddah,

I would like to state that yes, I am white, I am middle class, and all around "average" in this society.

But I would also like to say this now, I've lived my life as the minority, probably worse than you. In my graduating class there were exactly 10 whites, 280 hispanic/blacks. So yes, I know what I'm talking about when I mension discrimination. When I first moved here I thought my name translated into gringo or hudeo (spanish terms for whitey basically).

That's funny, I've studied him to a very large extent and I saw him fighting for the civil rights of everyone... man I must be wronge there...

No, they picked him simply to show hipocracy.

Hm.. my family was discriminated against when they moved here, Germans shortly before WWI... my grandparents home and farm were burned and threatened with death. I have personally got my ass kicked a few times simply because I'm white, I've have been flat out told I didnt get the job because they dont like "whiteys". Funny... where's my award?

Thanks to affirmitive action (AKA legal discrimination) You will get it, congradulations.

As said above, I've been flat out told no because he didnt like the color of my skin, have you?

Yes, and it's a very sad thing. But how can you honestly justify one thing when it aids you while arguing against it when it doesnt?

You're right, it's about helping one group of people while not allowing others the same access simply because of the color of their skin. It was very wronge then and it's wronge now.

Yes blacks have had it bad for a very long time, but at the same time every class/race/origin has in this country other than white/English/protestant. About the cops I've personally whitnessed this with my room mate (who happens to be black), yes it definately needs to change, but this does not have anything to do with it. As I said, you can NOT fight against something while justifying it at the same time.

Actually if it were an MLK thing... wouldn't it make him smile to know the club was for both white and black people... especially if they have common ancestors? How can you prove he is white? The color of his skin? My neighbor is black, he actually was one of the kids that was the ONLY black boy who went to a white school. He lived through it. He married someone who is white... now one of his daughters is white, but wait a minute.. if he's black... doesn't that make her black too? You're judging him off of his skin color.. he may very well be black, you just don't know his background.

Ok.. this was the past.. It may have sucked... but its not that time anymore. Maybe I'll bring up how romans put catholics in with lions and use that as an excuse for my religion or something.. its the past.. its not the present. Sorry but I don't see any prevelence.

Yeah, actually in highschool, We were told that if we had ANY trace of minority in us.. to put it on the sheet for colleges and scholarships. As it would INCREASE our chances of getting in.

Actually um.. I've gotten a drug-test for every Job I've ever applied for, even janitorial work as a summer job. Drug-tests are for everyone.

Well, under that information.... I'm guessing its going to be the man moving suspiciously and possibly looking extremely nervous. I have yet to see a cop just pull over a black person for no reason. Yeah there are cases... that doesn't mean its the way it is. And yeah Secret said to look at cops.. but just because its shown one way doesn't mean thats how it truely is.. the news is rather selective. I don't recall either of my neighbors being pulled over for no reason, and I'm positive I would have heard about it if they were. (both of my neighbors are black)

What card? As a white guy if I so much as say anything that could REMOTELY be taken out of context.. I'll get reemed for being a racist bastard. I have to watch what I say so I don't get people yelling at me and making me look bad. Its not a one way street. And since I'm white.. I guess I'm speaking from experience as well. Side Note: You can have a black club yet not much is said, but have you ever seen a white club? I haven't.. if I tried to start one.. Bam.. i'm now a racist prick. Yeah my side of the road is easy......

Yes, and please verify his background records to prove to me that he doesn't have the 'correct' background. Diversity happens now.. he can still be "black" and have white skin color. Again I reference to my neighbor's daughter.

So he is in no way American? 100% positive of this? As a nation called "the melting pot".. I hope you're not discluding someone who wasn't born here.. that would be very wrong, I think.

Actually it still partly deals with the award.. if it didn't we wouldn't be talking about it. Beyond that though? You're saying its not about MLK.. then let me quote you one last time.
its in memory of MLK, but it has nothing to do with him? Excuse me?

I greatly agree with this.

I dont see why you are mentioning what happened in the past. The British dominated my ancestors and stole our countries national wealth (India). The times have changed. You cant still live with hatred for what somebody's ancestors did to your ancestors.

I do, however, agree that there are some things that are "not right" with the society today. So, let's all try and change it. Let's focus on the issue at hand today, not what happned in the past.

I did not think that there was any modern relevance to race either, as I had the luxury of growing up in a very racialy diverse area. for this reason i was also against affirmative action, as I believed that race should in no way be a factor in jobs, schools, or anything else- then I visited my then fiancee- now ex wife's home in a very isolated part of the appalacian mountains- where anyone who is not white is refered in derogatory terms- pretty much by anyone there- If someone is not a W.A.S.P. then there must be something wrong with them- I honestly had not believed that this kind of racism still flourished in the U.S. - I still feel that Idealy, we should all fill out "Human" on our forms, as Greytone suggested, but seeing that kind of behavior in every strata of society there made me rethink a lot of things regarding race relations.........

Am I the only one responding who thinks BuDDaH makes a very good POINT?

Look, the PC wave across America (and the world really) has been spawned by misguided liberal guilt in my opinion, so I'm not one to support it. However, there it is and it has shaped certain things in our daily lives. One of them being: The accepted term that institutions use (in general) is African-American and not Black (just like you'll find caucasain over the term white on most forms).

Why? Well it's complicated. But part of the reason boils down to semantics. And this is precisely what most people replying to this thread are arguing over:

SEMANTICS.

However, by arguing over the schools choice of words most of you, as BuDDah said, have "MISSED the point".

We can all argue that we're all American and that most black Americans weren't born in Africa so why use the term African-American blah blah blah.....'til we're all blue in the face (and by the lenght of this thread that's just what we're doing).

But this has little to do with the point. Which is:

THE AWARD AT THE SCHOOL WAS CLEARY INTENDED TO BE GIVEN TO A BLACK STUDENT WHATEVER TERM THEY USED TO DESCRIBE THE STUDENTS RACE.

Why was it meant for black students only? Well BuDDaH probably said it best, but it has a little something to do with the UNIQUELY AMERICAN struggle that black americans have had to endure in this country. Slavery and segregation, while thankfully in the past, did not happen that long ago. And racism, I hope everyone realizes, is still very much present to this day.

Awards, like the one at the school, remind us of the past and help us to see how far we have come. But I'm sorry to say that we are not at the point yet where such awards aren't needed. Although I do believe we are moving forward slowly but surely.

This is why the students were misguided in their protest. However I can't really blame highschool students for thinking that such semantics are so important. They do make a valid point that many people have made before. The term African-American does have many "loopholes" as many of you have pointed out. Yet the term isn't so far off that I think we need to just drop it entirely right now. And, more importantly,

THE STUDENTS CLEARLY DO NOT UNDERSTAND THE DEEPER MEANING OF THE AWARD.

And in the face of that deeper meaning their argument seems childish at best.

I disagree with the schools decision to suspend them. The students should have, instead, been assigned a research paper on the Civil Rights Movement, maybe then they'd begin to understand what this whole mess is really about.

This reminds me of a friend in Mississippi, his grandfather cam from South Africa, he's blond and blue eyed, look like a poster child for Hitler's idea of Arian, but he puts down African-America whenever he can just for the reactions it gets.

sadatx, this whole thread seems to be now going about the right of the black community to call upon past sufferings.

What the students themselves however did and intended, as far as I can see, is call the university on their vague PC notions like African-American if what they really mean is black.

Just to be an ass to the PC crowd, I'll say it again, BLACK. :D

I don't agree with the notions of past suffering that entitle them to such unique awards.
I DO however agree that these awards are just. Like it or not, there is alot of poverty, uncaring and just generally uncivilised behaviour all around us. This award gives a person that stands out because of his behaviour, excellence and achievements some praise, brings a bit of focus to their example and rewards them for embellishing who they can be, in spite of their surroundings.

So as far as that goes, I say the award is a good idea. Let it exist. And get rid of stupid euphemistic, pussified, never-get-to-the-point language. That's what the students imho were pointing out. Not that it was a racist award.

Thanks you for seeing what I been trying to show. Now I'd wish some of you quit trying trying to attack ME and stay with the topic, I said before NOT to take any examples I made out of context. Affirmative action hasn't done shit for me nor have I ever looked for a handout or help because I am Black.

You all can come up with examples how you been discrminated against because you been in a situation similar to something what most Black Americans go through on an everyday basis.

(For every instance you can come up with, I can show 30, so let's quit the "pissing" contest..)

You all can "try" to take apart those examples I made, but I'll tell you something, all of them except the KKK reference are TRUE. So, you can come with your hypothetical hebejebees, and try to make some "reasonable" equation on how it went or why it happened that why, but I know why it went down that way. Deep down, so do you.... It's a shame people are still like that.

You can say what you want, but it is only half a generation away from when they still lynched a Black who "supposedly" whistled at a Caucasian woman... True, they have made some leaps and bounds into getting rid of racial discrimination, but if it would have been fair and equal from the get-go, it wouldn't have been like this in the first place...

And Gak-face: What the fuck lions, Romans and Christians have to do with this and American history?

I'm sorry I think any award or advantageous point gotten through race is racism. It's just how I feel. I wish we could all just live in a place where we didn't see colors like we do. It's really not hard, I didn't see colors at all until high school when black kids made it well known they were black. I miss those days.

THE AWARD AT THE SCHOOL WAS CLEARY INTENDED TO BE GIVEN TO A BLACK STUDENT WHATEVER TERM THEY USED TO DESCRIBE THE STUDENTS RACE.

Then the award was racist and shouldn't have been there. Listen, if we want to solve the race problems, we have to stop making such a damn big deal out of race. All this does is say "BLACK PEOPLE ARE DIFFERENT! THEY'RE VERY DIFFERENT! That's why we need a special award only for them!"

That's about the stupidest way you could possibly go about trying to get people to stop thinking in racial terms. As long as people continue to think of someone's race first (it's never "that lawyer who lives down the street" - it's always "that black guy who lives down the street") then race will continue to be an issue.

(put on your fire suit. Rant ahead)

RACE IS IRRELEVANT when evaluating a person. Before this thread, I never knew BuddaH was black, and I didn't give a damn either. I judged him based on what he said, not on what he looked like. Him being black doesn't make what he said any different than if he'd been a white guy saying the same thing. Wouldn't it be nice if we could approach the real world like that, where (as Dr. King said) people are judged based on what they do rather than their genetics.

That's why I applaud the actions of these students. They saw a situation that, in the absolute best case scenario, will create an officially sanctioned divide between the races, highlighting that blacks and whites are fundamentally different and need separate programs. They didn't like it and decided to make a point. And of course, the school responded in the same fashion as that elementary school did to the kid that figured out how to use Windows Messenger. They said "Hey! Kids are thinking on their own! Shit! That's not supposed to happen - we're supposed to have a bunch of mindless automatons in here that we can drone to until they're adults! We're supposed to have a nice easy job and instead these kids are thinking! Suspend 'em!"

Which of course sends the message that if you're black and don't like something related to race, you can shout about it till the cows come home. You can even make a multimillion dollar career off of flaming racist "comedy" as long as it's racist toward whites (Chris Rock). But if a white guy sees an injustice toward whites and comments about it, he's a racist, he's in the KKK, he's Hitler's protege, etc. It's a ridiculous double standard.

I'm not for a minute denying that black people have had a tough row to hoe in this country. Slavery and the rampant discrimination that followed slavery's end was abhorrent, and I'd like to think that if I were living during that time I'd have been fighting against it, but the fact is, I wasn't. I never owned slaves. I never made black people drink out of separate fountains. I never discriminated based on their skin color, and I'm frankly tired of being treated as though I committed all these crimes. No black person alive today was the victim of United States slavery, so I wish people would stop harping on it as though they themselves were tortured in the cotton fields.

The bottom line is that society bitches and moans that race is an issue at all, yet society continues to take great strides in MAKING race an issue. If you don't like sunburn, get the hell out of the sun. If you don't like racism, stop promoting ANY FORM of it.

Wrong again, the award was given to ANY student who embodied the criteria of the merits of what the award endeared to. The first two winners of the award weren't Black at all..

The message I was understanding that those students was trying to say that it wasn't enough the way the award was termed, the had to go an "one-up" on the school and get an African to try to make a point.

That is stupid because they went around the identifying fact that the African Americans are the one who had to deal with discrimination IN THIS COUNTRY and endure the racial impressions the country still presents forth this day. If you want to point things out, American was one of the countries that BOYCOTTED South Africa because of them doing the same shit with apartheid. I'd wish people would take a good look at the whole picture, remember history then put it in its proper perspective.
Everyone is trying to look beyond our hideous past and forget it, then say things are looking good in the future but in truth it looks shitty because if you don't know how to correct and identify the past, there is no future..

You continue to say we are missing the point Buddah, but by some of the responses (shakan, nisses, gakface), we are all getting the point. We all agree that our past sucks. We did things that we wish we could take back. We all agree that there still exists racism and discrimination, and that we are trying to overcome many obstacles before we truly become a true "melting pot".

You tell us to correct and identify the past. We are trying to. What else would you like us to do? Continue to have racist awards to point out that we have a shitty past? Continue to create awards that clearly have racist undertones in them? These are 16 year old kids trying to show that we have issues in society today. They tried to use satire to point out these issues. Again, I don't think they were trying to be insensitive. If people can't see that, then perhaps they are the ones blinded.

I can say that YOU are the one that is missing the point completely, Buddah, but you are not. You are just taking it from a different perspective. With that said, our hypothetical situations we use to prove our perspective, are just as valid as the ones you use to validate your perspective.

First of all, what people? Second, we are trying deperately to put this into the proper perspective. The past! We are trying to show you that we want all humans to be treated fairly and equally, but as long as people have one sided views of what transpires in the world today, we will never make a difference.

Personally, I am not attaking you buddah. Just want you to see that we haven't "missed the point" because we have a difference of opinion on the intentions of these youth.


p.s. I am Finnish!!!

Are we talkin' about the same article? The one at the top of this thread specifically says " Four Westside High School students are suspended for promoting a white student for an African-American award. . .. . Westside officials say the flyers were were quickly removed because they were inappropriate and insensitive to black students."

That sounds like an award only for black people to me. I didn't see where 2 non-black kids got anything either.

*confused*

The message I got from the article was that the students A) didn't like the element of racism and B) realized that "African-American" is a stupid term to describe black people because 1) not all Africans are black and 2) not all black people are from Africa.

That's it! I'm going back to school just so I can win an award like this! I am a shade or two whiter than Casper and I was born in Africa. But titles are lame and the people who use them are not using thier god given intelegence. I like to think of as all Humans with our own variations or unique traits. How are we to evolve as a species if some people can't even get over a color issue!

Bingo!! That's the message YOU got. And believe me, I applaud you for it. That's the message that I wish everyone got. I knew that a lot would.

Unfortunately, in this case, knowing what I do of Westside High, and the elitist little snots that go there...I don't think that was the original intent. Not for one moment. They just wanted to stir up trouble...and did. What they unintentionaly did was to get the whole country talking about it...which is...good.

We are not going to stamp out racism in my lifetime. But we are getting closer with each generation. My mother grew up in the deep south, Florida, to be exact, in the '50s. Segregation was a way of life. When she married my father, in 1960, her grandfather would not allow my father into his house, because..."No damn Yankee is ever gonna step foot in my house." (Note: he did finally relent...3 years later...2 years after my birth...in Pennsylvania) When my mother first came to Pennsylvania, from Florida, in 1960, she was absolutely horrified when a "Negro" woman sat down next to her, at the lunch counter in J. J. Newberry's. That just wasn't done in Florida. Dad gave her a crash course in the ways of race relations, in the northern states. When I was born, in 1962, it would have been very easy for my mother to raise me into a little Ku Kluxer, but to her credit, she sensed that the time for change was coming, and did not. So, long story short, things are getting better, all the time. But, we still have very long way to go.

What the hell does that mean? "Past sufferings" have been mentioned all of about three times in this thread. And by your logic all those Jews should just forget about the Holocaust because it's a past suffering, I mean, WTF?

Plus, I also mentioned present suffering. You know, suffering that's happening right now. (And I see that you're from Belgium which gives you about zero perspective on the state of rascism in America, if you're an American living overseas then that's, of course, different).

Let me clarify what I tried to say in my earlier post. The students' fight is not with the school and not with the award. I'm sorry, but "calling" the university on using African-American is so immature and misguided that it's ridiculous that people are actually taking their side. What it does is ignore, as I've said before, the meaning of the award. It was just the wrong thing to protest.

What? Do you want a present? Sorry, but that statement right there sums up why the term African-American was created in the first place. Because of idiots going around saying "I don't care what YOU want to be called, I'm gonna call you Black cause that's what I want to call YOU."

Do you understand how OFFENSIVE this is?!?

Sorry if I sound overly antoagonistic, but I think you might have touched a nerve

http://www.omaha.com/index.php?u_np=...e258a01d151a4f

It seems that the contest was originally incusive of all races. Most of the winners were black. Two white people won and westside officials decided that in the "spirit of the award" (in honor of MLK) they would change the contest to exclude a bunch of people based solely on their race. Historical context or not, how can you reconcile this with king's belief that we should all be judged not by the color of our skin, but by the content of our character? Certainly you shouldn't create an award in honor of somebody and then completely ignore one of the fundamental beliefs of that person in handing out that award.

I agree that those things might be true, but what is the relevence in mentioning that in this thread?

Why in bloody hell is it any more offensive for a black person to be called black than it is for me to be called white? African American is an inaccurate term unless you have dual citizenship. It is certainly an inaccurate term to label all black people with. It's high time everyone quit getting so damn offended over words.

Thank you filtherton for clarifying this.

A FUCKEN MEN

I AM NOT ASIAN AMERICAN. I AM NOT FILIPINO AMERICAN. I AM NOT PACIFIC ISLANDER. I take offense being called anything else but AMERICAN.

I was born and bred here in the USA. I am.... american.

sadatx: if it's the word black you so much dislike? Do you honestly think that by giving it another name you will minimize and nullify any differences? I mean, you give off the impression that it's wrong to be black. If it's the term you object to, then instead of using a new word every 10-15 years, why not work to improve the meaning and connotation of 'black'? Something I believe this award is trying to achieve, regardless of the name being used.
edit: I don't mean the original intent of the award, since MLK didn't stand for that. I mean the new updated idea behind the award

water_boy1999 : Olen asunut Suomessa jo melkein neljätoista vuotta, ja tiedän kokemuksesta miten ulkomaalaisia Suomessa kohdellaan. :)

The_Dude: You are in over your head, read the thread before replying....... :)

filtherton: My point EXACTLY.......

Wow, you completely missed MY point. My point isn't a rant about how I've been wronged or mistreated, my point is I never asked for anything in compensation. Yes I'm sure some of those things have happened to you, but why should you get partial treatment and not me?

I'm white.. thats right. "We" owned "you"... yeah that gets shoved in my face constantly. Even though we've traced out famliy back 16 generations (320 years...) and not ONE has ever owned a slave. So once again... why? 3 of my family members were lawyers working for free when the NAACP were just getting started, how can you hold what other people do against ME simply because we have the same skin color?

I know your point, blacks have had it bad for a very long time and thus programs like this are ok. My point is it was wronge then and is wronge now, it's that simple.

Seaver and everyone else: Stick to the topic and the thread, please.

BuDDaH, with all due respect, I'm not seeing a divergence from the topic here. The article posted to start the topic deals with the issue of racism, and so far no one has strayed from the racism topic. . . .

Topic: School, award, the kids...

Not topic: Nothing about how many generations you lived in America, who owned slaves or what, quit coming at "me" personally.. in other words, can we stick to the topic?

The topic is about a school who in memory of MLK went the exact opposite direction, and a bunch of kids who were only intending to have some fun tripped over a major gash in society.

The partial treatment of different colors does indeed matter in this case if you ask me.

And I'm not coming at you, my argument is that I have personally been wronged, yet according to Affirmitive Action that doesnt matter simply because I'm white. It is only because of partial treatment that this is even a topic, it would be like discussing views of the christianity without being able to talk about the bible, or talking about the revolution without talking about the Declaration of Independance. You can't just leave out things like that.

Well, if the country or the point of views people had way-back-when-the-things-were-the-way-they-were and started from the jump go equally, I think this country wouldn't have to deal with things as they are. I am not an advocate of Affirmative Action, but those were created to FORCE the issue of being equal, because things were not.

BuDDaH, you're absolutely right about why AA was created, and when it was created it was necessary. But AA is not currently being implemented in the way it was intended. It was intended to guarantee that race would not be a factor in the hiring of someone. Now, it is MAKING race a factor in hiring people. It all goes back to the central problem - As long as we make race a factor, we will never progress to the point where race doesn't matter.

If this is so, why did you bring up what happened in the past?

It pisses me off seeing things like this, since the only reason any "race" club exists in most schools is because they claim to be a culture club. Who are they to say that he has nothing to do with African Culture.

This reminds me when the "office of diversity" at my school hounded Jamaican students about being African American. They found it so offensive that it wasn't funny. The admissions office also loves to classify them as African American in brochures, simply lumping them together with other people of completely different cultures, because of the color of their skin.

Sorry if some of these points I'm about to unfuck have already been unfucked, I came in late.

Actually, the Americans were supporting an African-American friend. In you're obviously devisive statement, you claim that being African American is only valid if you are black.

How can you say that he is not an American of African decent? He was born in Africa. He experienced African culture. He is now in America.

Because they were not African-American.

Yes, since this award was to be given to an African-American...

Are you trying to say that if he was a black man that had just moved from Africa a few years ago, he would have also been disqualified and suspended?

Uh, you're a Black American. Not one more than the other.

This was billed as an award open to African-Americans. Not a decendantsofafricanswholivedinamericaalongasstimeagoohandyouhavetobeblack award.

He was suspended.

I've never seen one of these at a public park. Have you? Oh, you're talking about 50 years ago, well before any of those kids were even born.

Dude, it's 2004.

This is just stupid. They'd both die, white people didn't like white people who liked black people. Luckily it's really 2004, and this broken "point" has no bearing on the reality of TODAY.

I missed it, but lets do...

Wait, there's no black people that work at Harvard? I'm not saying this NEVER happens, but why would you be afraid of a background check? If you've been a good person (black or not) you shouldn't have to worry about receiving a background check. You're applying a sick stereotype here. Have you not seen progress? I assume you're also claiming that a black person would never make a decision on an applicant based on skin color. Purely insane.

See above.

Both of you. If they have reason to suspect a crime, they won't just let half of you walk away.

Too easy to try these days.

Actually, it's an award meant for an African-American. Or maybe I read that wrong.

Exactly.

He's an African living in Amerca (might even be a citizen?) with his family. I choose to embrace legal immigrants as Americans, and since he's from Africa, I'd say he's "more" African-American than you (assuming you were born in the states). When someone asks you where you're from, do you say Africa? Do I say Sweden? No. Again, this was an award for African-Americans. If he wasn't the best candidate for the award based on his achievements then he wouldn't have won.

Unfortunately, he wasn't the best candidate based on the color of his skin. This is the attitude we're trying to get AWAY from, not embrace.

Like this? "You are white, therefor you are wrong." Sounds like a really wise statement to me. pssh.

JHC. This is plain fucking bullshit. I could see if someone made a completely off topic post, and it was deleted. This is going too far though. It doesn't matter if you reply to the first post after reading only the first post, the thought is still valid. TFP shouldn't allow any moderators to belittle it's members. Hopefully my views won't be deleted because I didn't let other peoples reply to your post (buddah) skew my view.

I think you're both missing the point. What I believe most people want (myself included) if for those "forms" to disappear. The words used to define the different races aren't wrong, it's the fact we spend so much time trying to define races that is wrong. As someone mentioned earlier, you can't tell someone they aren't "black" just because of the color of their skin.

I think we need to remove any reference to skin color or nationality from every damned 'official' form in the country. IT DOESN'T MATTER. If the government wants to track the true nationality of citizens and immigrants, ask for the country in which you were born, nothing more. You want to have a PRIVATE club for black/white/whatever people? Do it. Just keep that shit out of the schools, keep it out of the government, and keep it out of the human resources department. note: i disagree with any club/award/whatever based on skin color, the previous comment was made in recognition that this IS/was a free country, and peaceful practicing of any belief in private is acceptable to me.

You get it yet? It's not the words, it's the idea behind the words.

I think what this thread comes down to is how everybody interprets everything. It's that basic. I can hold up an empty soda can and half of you will think, "That man sure is thirsty," while the other half will think, "Yes, recycling is good."

Every point in this arguement - Martin Luther King, the award itself, black history month - can be construed into different points of view and each of you arguing are unwilling to accept that OTHER PEOPLE SEE THINGS DIFFERENTLY.

Nobody is right. Nobody is wrong. However, you all are trying to pound the same point into eachother's heads without regard for the fundamental fact that we are in a world of diversity, and no two people have the same construal.

At the heart of this, I'm sorta saying that it's useless to argue. Please DISCUSS, but there is no reason to get offensive, or even use insulting descriptive terms in your posts.

DISCUSS DISCUSS DISCUSS!!!!

Hmmm. I think we all realize that others see things differently, but that doesn't change the fact that we all think we're right ;)

The way I see it is, if you make race an issue, then it's an issue. If you don't make race an issue, then it's not an issue. So why not make it a non issue? Quit worrying about what color someone is and start worrying about how they behave, who they are, etc.