Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community  

Go Back   Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community > The Academy > Tilted Politics


 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 02-03-2004, 03:23 PM   #161 (permalink)
Junkie
 
Seaver's Avatar
 
Location: Fort Worth, TX
Quote:
To be frank, I don't really give a shit how insulted you are right now because you constructed an argument out of thin air so you would be insulted.
No, I am NOT whining. My point was while they claimed all that stuff held them down and was a justification for legal discrimination, my personal experiences shoots that to pieces.

Quote:
Probably not, because you could move your ass somewhere else
Yeah it's called college. Please forgive me for trying to better myself.

Quote:
don't deny that Hispanics aren't becoming a dominant force in our culture--just be sure not to whine about it when the time comes after the tables are reversed. This isn't to argue that it's ok, but that you shouldn't be an asshat about it because it's been a long time coming.
Where do you get this from? My problem isnt with Hispanics.. it's with a few asshats. I dont want to hold them down because of what a few did, just the same reason why I dont agree with reparations/affirmitive action.

Quote:
I never said anything about your past being "ok," but I sure am surprised you didn't learn any empathy given your past experiences.
Yes, I have LOTS of empathy for those that were wronged. I have personally been there, but where that ends is where they demand action because they were wronged. Where did I ever argue that Hispanics should pay me for what happened? Never, because I got over it. My point (again) is that you should not hold the many accountable for the many. Discrimination is discrimination, it's as black and white as that.
Seaver is offline  
Old 02-03-2004, 05:02 PM   #162 (permalink)
Please touch this.
 
Halx's Avatar
 
Owner/Admin
Location: Manhattan
I want you all to go pick up a social psychology book and look up a definition and examples of the term 'self fulfilling prophecy'

THEN I want you to apply your knowledge to the world around you, specifically the points discussed in this thread. Then, I want you to dismiss your statistics and get real.

There are lies. There are damn lies. And then there are statistics.
__________________
You have found this post informative.
-The Administrator
[Don't Feed The Animals]
Halx is offline  
Old 02-03-2004, 07:08 PM   #163 (permalink)
Tone.
 
shakran's Avatar
 
Quote:
With that said, there are various awards that already go to "white" people, no one is preventing them from participating in the mainstream. "Black" awards, in contrast, were constructed to provide a venue for a particular group of people who have traditionally been excluded from the mainstream.
You just proved my point for me, although you're wrong on one aspect. There aren't any white awards. There are mainstream awards, which are open to all comers, and there are minority awards, which are open only to a specific skin color. The last time I checked, there were no whites-only scholarships available for universities (at least, none that are publicly acknowledged), yet there are a helluva lot of black, indian, latino, etc. scholarships.


If a "black" award is specifically designed to provide a venue outside of the mainstream, then we should not complain when black people find themselves outside of the mainstream. After all, that's what we were going for with the "black" awards. The solution is not to ignore the mainstream in favor of specialized blacks-only awards. The solution is to work to make blacks and other minority groups a complete, 100% PART of the mainstream. Efforts have been made to that effect, but they are stymied by the black population's own insistance on being parted from non-blacks.

I really don't understand how anyone can think the idea of total integration of the skin colors rather than separation of the skin colors can be racist. I don't understand how anyone can think that the idea of ignoring skin color in favor of character in the evaluation of a person is racist. And I don't understand how anyone can think that continual insistance on being considered and treated different from everyone else will result in everyone being treated equally.
shakran is offline  
Old 02-03-2004, 07:39 PM   #164 (permalink)
Kiss of Death
 
Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow
Got to love the double standards.
__________________
To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.
Mojo_PeiPei is offline  
Old 02-03-2004, 08:17 PM   #165 (permalink)
The Matrix had a point...
 
BuDDaH's Avatar
 
Moderator Emeritus
Location: 10th Mountain ASB Fort Drum, N.Y.
What planet you live on? No white awards?

The Oscars
The Golden Globes
The Academy Awards
The Grammy's

Country and Western Music Awards

Ring a damned bell yet? BET only has been around for less than 20 years, how long has these others been around? And you whine about us having one?

Maybe when they decide to open up and make more catagories into the mainstream and include others arts besides their own catagories, then you'll see an more honest approach.

Hell, remember this: Steven Spielburg's "The Color Purple"
nominated for a record 15 Oscars. He won none and was "blacklisted". The next year, "Driving Miss. Daisy" swept the academy.. Talk about being fair? HAHAHA, you ignorant people make me laugh...
__________________
I'd hit that so hard whoever could pull me out would become King of England!

Last edited by BuDDaH; 02-04-2004 at 02:09 PM..
BuDDaH is offline  
Old 02-03-2004, 11:01 PM   #166 (permalink)
Tone.
 
shakran's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally posted by BuDDaH
What planet you live on? No white awards?

The Oscars
The Golden Globes
The Academy Awards
The Grammy's
Past Oscar winners (incomplete list)

Hattie McDaniel - Gone With the Wind

Sidney Portier - Lillies of the Field

Louis Gossett Jr. - Officer and a Gentleman

Denzel Washington - Glory

Denzel Washington - Training Day

Whoopi Goldberg - Ghost

Cuba Gooding Jr. - Jerry MaGuire

Halle Berry - Monster's Ball



A quick search for golden globes doesn't turn up a list of past winners, only current ones, so I'll skip it.


Grammys.

You aren't really gonna tell me the grammys are whites only are you?

Lessee:

Ella Fitzgerald, Count Basie, Will Smith, Sean Puffy Combs (or whatever the hell he's calling himself this week), R. Kelly, Chris Rock, Janet Jackson, Whitney Houston, TLC, Barry White, LeVar Burton, and a crapload of other black winners that I'm too lazy to type in. Those are mostly recent winners too. Go farther back and you find even more. That also is ONLY black winners. Other minorities have won as well - Santana picked up 9 off of one album.

Oh, and Harry Belafonte got a lifetime achievement award from the Grammys.

Emmys:

Oprah Winfrey has won 16 of them - 1 of which is a lifetime achievement.

Wayne Brady won 2 emmys his first time out, one of which was tied with The View, which is cohosted by Star Jones.



So if you wanna talk about whites-only awards, how about finding awards that are actually whites-only?
shakran is offline  
Old 02-04-2004, 05:20 AM   #167 (permalink)
Psycho
 
Quote:
Originally posted by shakran
Past Oscar winners (incomplete list)

Hattie McDaniel - Gone With the Wind

Sidney Portier - Lillies of the Field

Louis Gossett Jr. - Officer and a Gentleman

Denzel Washington - Glory

Denzel Washington - Training Day

Whoopi Goldberg - Ghost

Cuba Gooding Jr. - Jerry MaGuire

Halle Berry - Monster's Ball

Well, congratulations, you came up with 8 out of how many now?

Hattie McDaniel won for playing a slave who was happy with and faithful to her white owners (I'm not saying she's not a great actress, she is, I'm just commenting on the mindset of the voters).

Denzel won for playing a slave who fights for the north in the civil war. Then a corrupt, drug-dealing, murdering cop.

Again, I think Denzel's a terrific actor and I'm just pointing out the types of roles academy members think black actors should get recognized for.

Sidney Portier, one of the all time greats, largely gained acceptance to white audiences, because he was "non-threatening" to them. This is the kind of stuff Hollywood was worried about back then (and still is to some extent).

I'm not going to lie. I think it's changing. But, I'm sorry, the Oscars are still large about honoring white actors. Let me say again. I do think things are changing. Just slowly.
sadatx is offline  
Old 02-04-2004, 06:01 AM   #168 (permalink)
Tone.
 
shakran's Avatar
 
well let's see. Kevin Spacey won best actor for American Beauty in which he played a pedophilliac, unfaithful husband who's main goal in life is to masturbate in the shower.

Anthony Hopkins won it for Silence of the Lambs in which he played a cannibalistic serial killer.

Michael Douglas won it for Wall Street in which he played a crooked stock trader who thought nothing of committing crimes and of destroying the lives of hundreds of workers so he could make a few bucks.

F. Murray Abraham won it for Amadeus in which he played a psychopathic musician who's sole goal in life was to kill Mozart.

Louise Fletcher won it for One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest in which she played a twisted nurse who's driving ambition was to psychologically torture the mental patients in her ward.

Marlon Brando won it for The Godfather in which he played the head of a massive crime family.

Liza Minelli won it for Cabaret in which she played a girlie club floozy who'd sleep with anyone to get what she wanted.

Joanne Woodward won it for The Three Faces of Eve, in which she played a mental patient.


Gee, by your logic I guess the Oscars are portraying white people negatively too.
shakran is offline  
Old 02-04-2004, 08:43 AM   #169 (permalink)
Psycho
 
Quote:
Originally posted by shakran
Gee, by your logic I guess the Oscars are portraying white people negatively too.

Nope, that doesn't follow from my logic.
sadatx is offline  
Old 02-04-2004, 01:37 PM   #170 (permalink)
Tone.
 
shakran's Avatar
 
Quote:
I'm just pointing out the types of roles academy members think black actors should get recognized for.

Yes, I think it does follow your logic. You pointed out a bunch of villian / slave roles that black people won for, and then made the above statement. That implied that you believe the awards were only given to these black people because they played villians / slaves well - that the Academy will only award black people when they enforce the idea that blacks are bad / worthless and whites are good / important.

So I pointed out a bunch of white people that got oscars for playing "bad" roles. By your logic, if it's an indication of racial predispositions to give a black person an award for playing a villian, then there must surely be a similar reason to award a white person for playing a villian role.
shakran is offline  
Old 02-04-2004, 01:39 PM   #171 (permalink)
Tone.
 
shakran's Avatar
 
Quote:
I'm just pointing out the types of roles academy members think black actors should get recognized for.

Yes, I think it does follow your logic. You pointed out a bunch of villian / slave roles that black people won for, and then made the above statement.

I pointed out a bunch of white actors who won the award for playing similar (and in many cases, much more devious) roles. That blows holes in your idea.

Also, why was Denzel Washington's award for Glory the type of role Academy members think black actors should get recognized for? Have you actually seen the film? It's whole tone pointed to the evils of both slavery and differential treatment.
shakran is offline  
Old 02-04-2004, 01:50 PM   #172 (permalink)
Psycho
 
Quote:
Originally posted by shakran
That blows holes in your idea.

Yes, I have seen the films.


No, it doesn't blow holes in my idea.


Think about a little harder....
sadatx is offline  
Old 02-04-2004, 02:18 PM   #173 (permalink)
The Matrix had a point...
 
BuDDaH's Avatar
 
Moderator Emeritus
Location: 10th Mountain ASB Fort Drum, N.Y.
Going to point out, how long have the Oscars been going on and WHEN did the first African American win? By the way, that wasn't an incomplete list, thats THE LIST.
__________________
I'd hit that so hard whoever could pull me out would become King of England!
BuDDaH is offline  
Old 02-04-2004, 06:30 PM   #174 (permalink)
Tone.
 
shakran's Avatar
 
Well the first Oscars was held in 1928, and McDaniel won it in 1940. That's 64 years ago, and more than 2 decades before desegregation. Reports at the time, btw, say that McDaniel got the biggest applause of the evening.
shakran is offline  
Old 02-05-2004, 12:55 AM   #175 (permalink)
Psycho
 
Location: Lubbock, TX
Quote:
Originally posted by sadatx
Well, congratulations, you came up with 8 out of how many now?

Hattie McDaniel won for playing a slave who was happy with and faithful to her white owners (I'm not saying she's not a great actress, she is, I'm just commenting on the mindset of the voters).

Denzel won for playing a slave who fights for the north in the civil war. Then a corrupt, drug-dealing, murdering cop.

Again, I think Denzel's a terrific actor and I'm just pointing out the types of roles academy members think black actors should get recognized for.

Sidney Portier, one of the all time greats, largely gained acceptance to white audiences, because he was "non-threatening" to them. This is the kind of stuff Hollywood was worried about back then (and still is to some extent).

I'm not going to lie. I think it's changing. But, I'm sorry, the Oscars are still large about honoring white actors. Let me say again. I do think things are changing. Just slowly.
THANK YOU; took the words right out of my mouth. Blacks just won for the FIRST time in the best actor/actress category TWO years ago; TWO. And it's true, it seems as they only win when playing stereotypical roles. I.E. Denzel in Training Day and Halle in Monster's Ball.

I mean, I'm surprised Djimon Honsou didn't win for Amistad

Why didn't Halle win at least a NOMINATION for one of her best roles, Introducing Dorothy Dandridge?

Why didn't Denzel get any attention for THESE roles that In my opinion he should have come close to winning: MALCOLM X (probably one of THE most snubbed movies ever; it should have SWEPT the oscars in '93), The Hurricane, Remember The Titans, The Pelican Brief, and his directorial efforts in Antwone Fisher were practically ignored. All of those movies were great and deserving of more attention by the Academy. But no, what does he get it for, after ALL those great movies that he deserved an award for!? TRAINING DAY!? Puh-lease!

And don't EVEN get me started on Angela Basset. Angela is without-a-doubt THE most underrated actress and underlooked actress in Hollywood. Lets go down a list of her movies that should have gotten Oscar attention shall we? Let's see...

there's (again) MALCOLM X; she played Betty Shabbaz and tore it up! Best supporting actress all the way! Where's the love!? Then there's WHAT'S LOVE GOT TO DO WITH IT where she of course played Tina Turner like she was Tina herself; shoulda won that year for best actress; got jack. Can't forget her powerful and memorable performance in Waiting To Exhale; jipped. And then there's How Stella Got Her Groove Back. Hell if Diane Keaton can be nominated this year for Something's Gotta Give, then why was Angela shown no love for Stella? It's practically the same concept. I even think she shoulda gotten a golden globe for playing Katherine Jackson in Jacksons: An American Dream; she KILLED that role; one of her best.

You have to be honest that it IS a little strange that all of a sudden when the powerhouse black actors slip into a stereotypical role, they got more attention than when they played the "non-typical" roles (I.E. Angela in Waiting To Exhale and Denzel in Malcolm X).

OK I'm done; hehe.
illesturban is offline  
Old 02-09-2004, 07:39 AM   #176 (permalink)
xim
Insane
 
Location: One with the Universe
I used to have a freind from south africa, he was the most racist dude I've ever met. Apperantly there are still black slaves over there. We always used to call him an African American because he got so mad.
__________________
If I could be anyone in the world I would be Britney Spears. Shes in so many commercials about pepsi... www.ximcity.com
xim is offline  
Old 02-09-2004, 10:00 AM   #177 (permalink)
Tone.
 
shakran's Avatar
 
Listen, no one's saying that there isn't still discrimination (or if they are saying that, they're delusional).

I posted the list of black insert-award-here winners because someone said that no black person had ever won. That was inaccurate. If you're gonna bitch about something, make sure you know what it is you're bitching about.

Now, there are still cases where blacks are stereotyped/discriminated against/etc. So here's my question. Do you want that to stop, or do you just want to bitch about it until the end of time? Because running around making every effort possible to show that black people are different/seperate from white people is NOT the way to end discrimination. Up to you.
shakran is offline  
Old 02-14-2004, 12:06 AM   #178 (permalink)
Tilted
 
Where are we headed?

A nation who promotes equality for all!

He get 2 days for that, I seen worse get nothing.

NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND.........Good job George.
FishKing is offline  
Old 02-14-2004, 03:54 AM   #179 (permalink)
Crazy
 
kiwiman's Avatar
 
Location: New Zealand
Quote:
Originally posted by xim
Apperantly there are still black slaves over there.
I too have a friend from South Africa, and he assured me you would be very hard pressed to find a slave over there. A black maid or helper is very common, however, as it is having an Asian helper in Singapore, or a latino helper in America.

By helper i mean gardener, chef, cleaner etc
kiwiman is offline  
Old 02-14-2004, 01:38 PM   #180 (permalink)
The Matrix had a point...
 
BuDDaH's Avatar
 
Moderator Emeritus
Location: 10th Mountain ASB Fort Drum, N.Y.
Quote:
Originally posted by shakran
I posted the list of black insert-award-here winners because someone said that no black person had ever won. That was inaccurate. If you're gonna bitch about something, make sure you know what it is you're bitching about.
You made that assumption up, no one said nothing about a black person winning, I was pointing out that there were until a certain point in time, The Oscars and other ceremonies WERE WHITE ONLY.


Quote:
Now, there are still cases where blacks are stereotyped/discriminated against/etc. So here's my question. Do you want that to stop, or do you just want to bitch about it until the end of time? Because running around making every effort possible to show that black people are different/seperate from white people is NOT the way to end discrimination. Up to you. [/B]
The early Americans started this issue but not treating Black Americans fairly from the start. Now when laws are being made to enforce the issue of fairness, the white guy wants to call "Time out" and want to work out a deal. They always want to work out a deal WHEN they get FORCED. Why not do it on their on accord? They always are trying to "get over" and not come to the table straight up.

I am now going to tell you the other "half" of Martin Luther King Jr.'s "I have a Dream". (Oh, you didn't know the version you think you know was "sanitized" to make it look good?) This is also what he pointed out and still, White American back then still fumbled the ball....

"In the debate over affirmative action, critics of programs meant to remedy the nagging effects of past and current racial discrimination have often used the following passage from Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.’s 1963 “I Have A Dream” speech to buttress their position:

“I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: ‘We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal.’ I have a dream that one day on the red hills of Georgia the sons of former slaves and the sons of former slave owners will be able to sit down together at a table of brotherhood. I have a dream that one day even in the state of Mississippi, a desert state, sweltering with the heat of injustice and oppression, will be transformed into an oasis of freedom and justice. I have a dream that my four children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character. I have a dream today.”

That was Dr. King’s dream.

But a year later, in his 1964 book, “Why We Can’t Wait,” Dr. King talked about what he believed to be the reality of the disadvantages that racial bias forced upon blacks – and what he thought it would take to repair the damage:

“Among the many vital jobs to be done, the nation must not only radically readjust its attitude toward the Negro in the compelling present, but must incorporate in its planning some compensatory consideration for the handicaps he has inherited from the past. It is impossible to create a formula for the future which does not take into account that our society has been doing something special against the Negro for hundreds of years. How then can he be absorbed into the mainstream of American life if we do not do something special for him now, in order to balance the equation and equip him to compete on a just and
equal basis?

“Whenever this issue of compensatory or preferential treatment for the Negro is raised, some of our friends recoil in horror. The Negro should be granted equality, they agree; but he should ask nothing more. On the surface, this appears reasonable, but it is not realistic. For it is obvious that if a man is entered at the starting line in a race three hundred years after another man, the first would have to perform some impossible feat in order to catch up with his fellow runner.”

How true....

The way I see "White America" is trying to keep on what they have been doing and not even trying to give a little, and Minority Americans fighting to get some of what they should have been getting from the beginning..

Equality.

P.S.
Don't take the reference "White America" out of hand, it isn't to generalize.....
__________________
I'd hit that so hard whoever could pull me out would become King of England!

Last edited by BuDDaH; 02-14-2004 at 01:46 PM..
BuDDaH is offline  
Old 02-14-2004, 07:13 PM   #181 (permalink)
Junkie
 
Seaver's Avatar
 
Location: Fort Worth, TX
Quote:
The way I see "White America" is trying to keep on what they have been doing and not even trying to give a little, and Minority Americans fighting to get some of what they should have been getting from the beginning..
Yes, we know the way you see everyone as their color. What we've been saying is because a few people of our color fucked up we're being punished.

It's not give and take, its they took from you, you take from me. If a person robs my house is it ok for me to rob from yours?
Seaver is offline  
Old 02-16-2004, 02:51 AM   #182 (permalink)
Watcher
 
billege's Avatar
 
Location: Ohio
Quote:
Originally posted by BuDDaH
I was pointing out that there were until a certain point in time, The Oscars and other ceremonies WERE WHITE ONLY.
Correct. Does the fact that black actors have recently won, mean that progress is not being made? Are we to discount the fact that they HAVE won, because they didn’t win earlier? I think if change is a process there must be a starting point.

I also think that Halle winning an Oscar has more impact than her winning a Source Award. If we assume that racism is still prevalent, it should follow that making progress in the mainstream should be the goal; if, that is, our assumed overall goal is an Equality. Which is something that must be in the mainstream for the definition of equality to be met.
To achieve that goal a group must affect the largest amount of people where they live. Blacks recognizing blacks does build support within the black community, which should be used to leverage winnings in the mainstream community.


Quote:
The early Americans started this issue but not treating Black Americans fairly from the start. Now when laws are being made to enforce the issue of fairness, the white guy wants to call "Time out" and want to work out a deal. They always want to work out a deal WHEN they get FORCED. Why not do it on their on accord?...
Early Americans didn’t treat anyone fairly from the start. The Indians got screwed, the immigrants that came after got screwed, the Asians got screwed, and the Hispanics got screwed. The important difference was that most of the “screwies” were white, and thus did not get screwed as badly. Slavery is also a differentiating factor.
Since that is a factor concerning blacks in America, it should separate the treatment of blacks from other groups.
In all fairness, I think I can say that the white man <I>is</I> doing it on his own accord. It’d be fair to say that the establishment is still white. The establishment created and passed the affirmative action laws. Blacks protested, whites listened. Maybe we could be optimistic enough about this to believe that whites even learned, and changed. Maybe we could grab that progress with both hands and build on it. Would you say blacks did that? Where are your black activists now? Where are the mass protests? Why did the tide of change fall back?
I don’t know the answers to those questions.
After the 60’s especially, blacks made progress. Evidenced now by black Fortune 500 company CEO’s, etc.
Would you say that progress has stopped? Stagnated? Or, are blacks discounting progress made, ignoring what could still be done, and focusing on the past failures in the white man’s process of atonement?

I think that’s part of it.
Complaining about what didn’t happen is a waste for all of us. It deafens blacks to what could happen tomorrow; it deafens us all to what we could do; what we should be doing.

Quote:
“Among the many vital jobs to be done, the nation must not only radically readjust its attitude toward the Negro in the compelling present, but must incorporate in its planning some compensatory consideration for the handicaps he has inherited from the past. It is impossible to create a formula for the future which does not take into account that our society has been doing something special against the Negro for hundreds of years. How then can he be absorbed into the mainstream of American life if we do not do something special for him now, in order to balance the equation and equip him to compete on a just and equal basis?

“Whenever this issue of compensatory or preferential treatment for the Negro is raised, some of our friends recoil in horror. The Negro should be granted equality, they agree; but he should ask nothing more. On the surface, this appears reasonable, but it is not realistic. For it is obvious that if a man is entered at the starting line in a race three hundred years after another man, the first would have to perform some impossible feat in order to catch up with his fellow runner.”

How true....
Yeah, it’s true.
I ask you, though, what do you intend to have happen?

I’ll agree that the starting line analogy is apt, but do you think the white man will stop running? Does Black America expect the white guy to take a Gatorade break?
I just earned myself a new job, with the degree I worked and paid for. Am I to give half my earnings to a random minority person? Maybe insist my new job be given to a minority?

Those questions are ridiculous for a reason. I’m trying to point out that no one can call a time-out in this particular race. I’ve got my mouth to feed, and I’ve got my wife’s mouth to think about too. There is just no way the race is going to stop so someone can catch up. The world does not work that way.

That doesn’t mean a time out isn’t appropriate, but there’s a big difference between what should happen, and what will.

I don’t know how to convince a white majority that they should give up. Especially because I don’t think they see themselves as “in this together.” I seriously do not think of any white guy, or girl, as my “white brother” or “sister.”

Please…that’s plain absurd.

I compete with anyone in the race with me because I must. If I stop, my white skin will not feed, clothe, or bathe me.
Quote:
The way I see "White America" is trying to keep on what they have been doing and not even trying to give a little, and Minority Americans fighting to get some of what they should have been getting from the beginning..

Equality.
There is no "white america," there is just America. No white people I know consider me part of some white frat.

Well, yeah, America is doing what it has been doing. Except that statement is only true if you discount that blacks aren't slaves, they can vote, they can sue, they can be lawyers and judges, they can have educations, they have the honor of being the group to make our country recognize and pass civil rights laws, they have affirmative action laws, and they have more and more black leaders than ever.

Yeah, if you discount all the hard work YOUR fellows did, America is doing the same thing it has always done.
America is a bunch of people trying to feed themselves. I honestly don’t believe that the white Americans have put aside differences to keep the black man down.
I honestly hope that ALL our Americans can realize that we are one country, and it’s us against the world for now. If we intend to win, we’d BETTER work together.



I brought up progress, and I’d just like to make sure we all realize it’s something we have to do together. Thursday at work a black guy, in reference to a piece of power equipment I was using (and had set momentarily aside) said, “It’s black history month, I don’t give a fuck, I’ll take it if I want.”

While I realize this particular guy is an asshole, and not the black race, he sure isn’t helping ANYONE with that kind of crap comment.

I think I bring him up to remind us all that it doesn't require a special skin color to hold up equality.
__________________
I can sum up the clash of religion in one sentence:
"My Invisible Friend is better than your Invisible Friend."

Last edited by billege; 02-16-2004 at 03:06 AM..
billege is offline  
Old 03-01-2004, 12:34 AM   #183 (permalink)
Psycho
 
j-man's Avatar
 
Location: Australia
English-Australian....Now that sounds silly, but is'nt it the same thing?......Spanish-phillipino.......Irish-New zealander........where will it end ? Hi I'm an Earthling-marsian ?!
__________________
j-man is offline  
Old 03-01-2004, 05:29 PM   #184 (permalink)
Tone.
 
shakran's Avatar
 
I've been hesitant to bring this up, but since this debate seems unable to die. . .

http://www.uwec.edu/Geography/Ivogel...s/charles3.htm

there are several other corroborating educational articles that confirm this - in the United States, free blacks owned black slaves.

Now, the reason I bring this up is to point out that to insist that white people should make reparations to black people is not only racist in the common-sense department, but it is also racially unethical as it penalizes white people who's ancestors never owned slaves while black people who's ancestors did own slaves not only are not penalized, but would benefit just as black people who's ancestors WERE slaves would.

Discuss.
shakran is offline  
Old 03-01-2004, 06:02 PM   #185 (permalink)
Cracking the Whip
 
Lebell's Avatar
 
Location: Sexymama's arms...
Well,

I've also hesitated to mention, but whites generally didn't just land in Africa and capture blacks (in spite of what "Roots" would have you believe.)

No, they bought their slaves from other African tribes.
__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU!

Please Donate!
Lebell is offline  
Old 03-01-2004, 06:25 PM   #186 (permalink)
Tone.
 
shakran's Avatar
 
Quite true, and in fact there is documented evidence that (at that time) slavery was common in Africa.

What galls me is that these facts are buried under the rug in modern day diversity discussions in an obvious smear campaign to paint white people as having been the root of all injustice. In fact, that's not the case, and that fact should be admitted by both sides.
shakran is offline  
Old 03-01-2004, 06:31 PM   #187 (permalink)
Kiss of Death
 
Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow
Whats more is slavery is still practiced in Africa.
__________________
To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.
Mojo_PeiPei is offline  
Old 03-01-2004, 08:24 PM   #188 (permalink)
Junkie
 
should the NBA and the NFL have white quotas?
Rekna is offline  
Old 03-01-2004, 11:45 PM   #189 (permalink)
Junkie
 
Location: Right here
If corporations that exist today can be proven to have profitted from slavery, regardless if they are owned by black or white people, then they should pay reparations to the descendents of the people they enslaved.

This doesn't extend to all whites, and it doesn't extend from a single corporation to all blacks. Merely, if an existing entity can be proven to have directly benefitted (or utilized) slavery, then it ought to reimburse the lineage of the people it violated.

In this capitalist society, aren't the earnings, at least in part, of current corporations based on the capital it amassed in the past. If those assets were ill-gotten, then it shouldn't be allowed to continue to profit from such gains.
__________________
"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann

"You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman
smooth is offline  
Old 03-02-2004, 06:52 AM   #190 (permalink)
My own person -- his by choice
 
Location: Lebell's arms
Quote:
Originally posted by Lebell
Well,

I've also hesitated to mention, but whites generally didn't just land in Africa and capture blacks (in spite of what "Roots" would have you believe.)

No, they bought their slaves from other African tribes.
Having just watched the series with my 8th graders last year, "Roots" does show blacks selling other tribes to the whites.
__________________
If you can go deeply into lovemaking, the ego disappears. That is the beauty of lovemaking, that it is another source of a glimpse of god

It's not about being perfect; it's about developing some skill at managing imperfection.
sexymama is offline  
Old 03-02-2004, 07:44 AM   #191 (permalink)
Cute and Cuddly
 
Location: Teegeeack.
This type of stuff confuses me. But then, I'm a Scandinavian-Ugrian Caucasian.

Just wait until i apply for Taiwanese citizenship. Then I'll even confuse myself...
__________________
The above was written by a true prophet. Trust me.

"What doesn't kill you, makes you bitter and paranoid". - SB2000

XenuHubbard is offline  
Old 03-02-2004, 08:51 AM   #192 (permalink)
Cracking the Whip
 
Lebell's Avatar
 
Location: Sexymama's arms...
Quote:
Originally posted by sexymama
Having just watched the series with my 8th graders last year, "Roots" does show blacks selling other tribes to the whites.
Oh, sorry.

It's been so long, I didn't remember.
__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU!

Please Donate!
Lebell is offline  
Old 03-02-2004, 09:16 AM   #193 (permalink)
will always be an Alyson Hanniganite
 
Bill O'Rights's Avatar
 
Location: In the dust of the archives
Quote:
Originally posted by Lebell
Oh, sorry.

It's been so long, I didn't remember.
Um...yeah, I can remember when it first aired, too. In 1977!! You're dating yourself, man.

Now, back to to the very original topic. Now that Charlize Theron has won an Academy Award, for Best Actress, does that now make two African American women to have won that award?

Yeah...I also squirt lighter fluid on already burning charcoal.
__________________
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.
Bill O'Rights is offline  
Old 03-02-2004, 12:15 PM   #194 (permalink)
Junkie
 
Location: Right here
Since race is a dead issue in the US, why did the press think that the "first preson of African descent to be nominated" was a story?

Most interesting to me, however, is that they were referring to Djimon Hounsou In America--there wasn't much mention of Charlize Theron as being from South Africa.

I think it's weird, though, of you to point to someone like Charlize as evidence of equality.

Here's an interesting page from Indiana U's page:

Quote:
Feature Presentation:
African American Oscar Winners

The Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences Awards, considered the most prestigious annual award ceremony for film in the United States, has a long and distinguished history of recognizing outstanding achievement in film. Unfortunately, their recognition of African American actors, actresses, and filmmakers has been few and far between.

The first African American to win an Academy Award was Hattie McDaniel for her performance as "Mammy" in Gone With the Wind (1939). Despite this breakthrough fairly early in the history of the Academy Awards, it would be another twenty-four years before another African American was once again honored (with the exception of the Honorary Award given to James Baskett in 1948 for his performance as "Uncle Remus" in Disney's Song of the South). When Sidney Poitier won a Best Actor Oscar for his performance in Lilies of the Field (1963) in the midst of the Civil Rights Movement in 1964, many hoped that the playing field was finally becoming more level. Unfortunately, it would be nineteen more years before another African American won an Academy Award.

Several black actors and one black actress won Oscars for supporting roles in the 1980s and 1990s, however none won for a leading role again until the 2002 Academy Awards. In that year, African Americans actually won both of the top acting awards. Halle Berry became the first African American woman to win the Best Actress award for her performance in Monster's Ball (2001), and after being nominated twice before for a leading role, Malcolm X (1992) and The Hurricane (1999), Denzel Washington finally won for his portrayal of a dirty cop in Training Day (2001).

The 2002 Academy Awards also featured an Honorary Lifetime Achievement Award given to Sidney Poitier. With three Oscars awarded to black actors, some declared that discrimination in the movie industry was a thing of the past and that African Americans had finally made it, while others maintained that progress was being made but there were still too many obstacles for people of color to overcome.

Is Hollywood still conducting business in black and white, or is green the predominant color of the Film Industry? In other words, does the image of African Americans that Hollywood most frequently presents reflect what makes the most money with national and international audiences? If so, what can be done to combat this problem in order to secure more worthwhile roles for black actors and actresses and projects for black filmmakers?

We encourage you to make up your own mind by taking a look at the articles, books, websites, and films listed at the bottom of this web page.
African American Academy Award Winners:
Hattie McDaniel, Best Actress in a Supporting Role for Gone With the Wind (1939).
James Baskett, Honorary Award "for his able and heart-warming characterization of Uncle Remus, friend and story teller to the children of the world in Walt Disney's Song of the South" (1946). [awarded at the 1948 Academy Awards Ceremony]
Sidney Poitier, Best Actor in a Leading Role for Lilies of the Field (1963).
Louis Gossett, Jr., Best Actor in a Supporting Role for An Officer and a Gentleman (1982).
Denzel Washington, Best Actor in a Supporting Role for Glory (1989).
Whoopi Goldberg, Best Actress in a Supporting Role for Ghost (1990).
Cuba Gooding, Jr., Best Actor in a Supporting Role for Jerry Maguire (1996).
Halle Berry, Best Actress in a Leading Role for Monster's Ball (2001).
Denzel Washington, Best Actor in a Leading Role for Training Day (2001).
Sidney Poitier, Honorary Lifetime Achievement Award "for his extraordinary performances and unique presence on the screen and for representing the industry with dignity, style and intelligence." [awarded at the 2002 Academy Awards Ceremony]

Here are some resources for learning more about African Americans and the Academy Awards:
Documentary Film:
America Beyond the Color Line with Henry Louis Gates, Jr. (2004), A BBC and PBS production. [see part 4, "Los Angeles: Black Hollywood"]
Websites:
The Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences
B. Davis Schwartz Memorial Library at Long Island University: African-Americans in Motion Pictures: The Past and Present.
Articles/Books:
Casanova, Tara. Blackflix.com. "Oscar Wild: Oscar breaks racial barrier!".
Collier, Aldore. "The Oscars in Black and White: African American actors and the Academy Awards," Ebony. April 2000. [includes a list of African Americans nominated for Academy Awards]
Gates, Henry Louis Jr. America Behind the Color Line: Dialogues with African Americans. New York:Warner Books, 2004.
Goodale, Gloria. "Controversy Hits Oscars Even Before Envelopes Opened," Christian Science Monitor. 3/25/96, Vol. 88, Issue 82.
Hughes, Zondra. "Has Hollywood Really Changed?," Ebony. June 2002, Vol. 57, Issue 8.
Kaplan, Erin Aubry. "Hollywood Babble-On," Crisis (The New). May/June 2002, Vol. 109, Issue 3.
Mapp, Edward. African Americans and the Oscar: Seven Decades of Struggle and Achievement. Lanham, Md.: Scarecrow Press, 2003.
Modleski, Tania. "In Hollywood, Racist Stereotypes Can Still Earn Oscar Nominations," Chronicle of Higher Education. 3/17/2000, Vol. 46, Issue 28.
Simpson, Tyrone. "Hollywood Bait and Switch: The 2002 Oscars, Black Commodification, and Black Political Science (Part One)," Black Camera. Fall/Winter 2002, Vol.17, no.2.
Simpson, Tyrone. "Hollywood Bait and Switch: The 2002 Oscars, Black Commodification, and Black Political Science (Part Two)," Black Camera. Spring/Summer 2003, Vol. 18, no. 1.
http://www.indiana.edu/~bfca/features/oscars.html
__________________
"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann

"You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman

Last edited by smooth; 03-02-2004 at 12:24 PM..
smooth is offline  
Old 03-02-2004, 12:38 PM   #195 (permalink)
Tone.
 
shakran's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally posted by smooth
[B] I think it's weird, though, of you to point to someone like Charlize as evidence of equality.
What exactly is that supposed to mean?
shakran is offline  
Old 03-02-2004, 12:48 PM   #196 (permalink)
Junkie
 
Location: Right here
Quote:
Originally posted by shakran
What exactly is that supposed to mean?
I don't know, have you seen a picture of her:



You don't think that evokes a different response than this:



smooth is offline  
Old 03-02-2004, 12:53 PM   #197 (permalink)
Junkie
 
Location: Right here
Oh yeah, that's Charlize up top and Djimon below (portrayed as Cinque in Amistad). Both from Africa--do I really need to remind you that South Africa, as every place in the world I am aware of, has a history steeped in racism?

Quote:
Despite trying to deliver the usual anodyne actor's account of making Amistad, he doesn't sound or look Hollywood. The watch on his wrist isn't a Rolex and his black suit isn't as crisp as you'd expect, though his shoes shine like polished jet.

Now 33, he was born into a middle-class family in Benin, but went to live with his brother in Lyons at the age of 13 to get a better education. At 21, he dropped out of medical school and went to Paris, where he slept on friends' floors.

To the anger of his family, he fell into modelling, but, being African, he couldn't make a decent living at it, being always "too this, or too that". He tried to get into films, but the casting agencies shrugged him off.

So it was that when Hounsou resolved to move to LA, he had next to nothing, not even English. It was a brave, perhaps reckless decision, but on the face of it, it paid off.
smooth is offline  
Old 03-02-2004, 01:26 PM   #198 (permalink)
Watcher
 
billege's Avatar
 
Location: Ohio
Quote:
Originally posted by Bill O'Rights


Now, back to to the very original topic. Now that Charlize Theron has won an Academy Award, for Best Actress, does that now make two African American women to have won that award?
I thought he was using that to point to the original discussion about the term "African American." Which, though Charlize is certainly not black, she is.

In fact she is a recent and valid example of the semantic games we play to avoid saying "black," or whatever phrase is deemed offensive this week.

Back in the day "Negro" was considered a polite form of adress, "black" was insulting. At one point "colored" was a decent way to go. Now, "negro" would be offensive, "colored" would be offensive, and "black" is sorta okay; and, we officially prefer "African American." Charlize is a pretty good example of how using "African American" is flawed.

It's all one big semantic game <i>around</i> the important issues.
__________________
I can sum up the clash of religion in one sentence:
"My Invisible Friend is better than your Invisible Friend."
billege is offline  
Old 03-02-2004, 03:07 PM   #199 (permalink)
Tone.
 
shakran's Avatar
 
mmmhmm. That's what I thought you meant. As billege pointed out, you want African Americans to win Oscars, but not WHITE African Americans. In fact, you want "African Americans" who have no African descent to win it.

What you REALLY want is for BLACK people to win an Oscar, so why the hell can't you just SAY it? Theron is an African American. If you really wanted African Americans to win the award you'd be happy.

IMHO we should dispense with the semantic bullshit that we've become so enamored with lately and start working on the REAL racial problems.
shakran is offline  
Old 03-02-2004, 04:37 PM   #200 (permalink)
Junkie
 
Location: Right here
So I just reread both my latest posts. I did use terms like white and black and my pictures were obviously illustrating the phenotypical differences between the two Oscar nominees (wherein the WHITE one won--there I typed it!--my apologies for the readers who couldn't make that conclusion based on what I already posted).

This thread, along with your and billege's points, are predicated upon the idea that a white african has as much claim to an award intended for black victims of racism as a black african, or a black US citizen with ethnic roots in africa.

That's semantics. So if you want to stop with "the semantic bullshit," no one is preventing you from starting with your next post.
__________________
"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann

"You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman
smooth is offline  
 

Tags
african, american, betcha


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 08:09 AM.

Tilted Forum Project

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
© 2002-2012 Tilted Forum Project

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183 184 185 186 187 188 189 190 191 192 193 194 195 196 197 198 199 200 201 202 203 204 205 206 207 208 209 210 211 212 213 214 215 216 217 218 219 220 221 222 223 224 225 226 227 228 229 230 231 232 233 234 235 236 237 238 239 240 241 242 243 244 245 246 247 248 249 250 251 252 253 254 255 256 257 258 259 260 261 262 263 264 265 266 267 268 269 270 271 272 273 274 275 276 277 278 279 280 281 282 283 284 285 286 287 288 289 290 291 292 293 294 295 296 297 298 299 300 301 302 303 304 305 306 307 308 309 310 311 312 313 314 315 316 317 318 319 320 321 322 323 324 325 326 327 328 329 330 331 332 333 334 335 336 337 338 339 340 341 342 343 344 345 346 347 348 349 350 351 352 353 354 355 356 357 358 359 360