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Old 01-16-2004, 08:09 AM   #41 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mojo_PeiPei
I would disagree. I would humbly submit that you are living in a politically correct world where we all hold hands lovingly and cuddle with fuzzy little bunnies. Go to Saudi Arabia, home to the most important shrines in Islam. It is here where 26+ million people are indoctrinated with hate against the west and Israel. (etc... -hg)
Saudia Arabia may be nominally an Islamic country but it is not an Islamic government. It is a monarchy, not a caliphate. Its culture is as much tied to the pre-Islamic Arab era as to Islamic teaching itself. And the "indoctrinated" people who side with Osama bin Laden also hate their own government, which they do not recognize as legitimate.

Quote:
Originally posted by Mojo_PeiPei
BTW I never said that all muslims hail these clowns as heroes or martyrs, all I said was that their cultures and mentalities are detrimmental in the parlence of our time, they fighting to cling on to an outdated,ugly, and vicious way of living.
My life is outdated, ugly, and vicious? (edit)

Okay at first I flamed you for your ignorant and offensive statement, but I thought I could do better than that.

Look, I'm not a very religious person myself... you could say that I'm struggling with religion. Now I go to a catholic university, and the jesuit priests i've met here are some of the most amazing people I've seen. their conviction, their integrity, their wisdom, all stems from the strength of their faith, their godly way of life.

I have been around Muslims all my life. Correctly practiced, it can (just like Catholicism) be a beautiful way of life, like any other religion. It can add balance and peace to families and communities. It can make people humble and generous.

So STOP stereotyping an entire faith based on the actions of a few twisted people.



That said, I do believe that a conflict between the world (not just "The West") and militant, intolerant Islam is inevitable and necessary. And I will be on the right side, as will every true Muslim I know.

Last edited by hiredgun; 01-16-2004 at 08:21 AM..
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Old 01-16-2004, 09:07 AM   #42 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mojo_PeiPei
BTW I never said that all muslims hail these clowns as heroes or martyrs, all I said was that their cultures and mentalities are detrimmental in the parlence of our time, they fighting to cling on to an outdated,ugly, and vicious way of living.
You know what? I think that an ignorant secularist could say the exact same thing about catholicism and be just about as accurate as you are. How long did catholicism enable pedophiles? I don't want to get in some kind of catholicism v. islam discussion because that would be pointless. Just trying to point out that if someone was talking about catholicism the way you are about islam, that is in general and onesided mischaracterizations, you'd be all over them. Don't pretend your shit don't stink.


As for minnesota somalians:
Quote:
BTW up here in Minnesota we don't have to many Arabs. We do however have many Somalians which are a perfect example of horrendous Muslim Warlord culture. Thousands of refugee's have flooded this state from Somalia. Being the age of 19 I have no problem with those of the older age, they are hard working and cause me no trouble. I do however have a problem with the kids who have caused both me and my friends nothing but drama.
I don't tink you can attribute "causing drama" to the fact that these kids are somalian or muslim. It is probably more a function of being a refugee from a country ravaged by armed conflict. It is that simple. Muslim or not. How easy would it be for catholic refugees from las favelas in sao paulo, brazil to integrate into american culture? Would you then attribute their "causing of drama" to their catholicism?

Last edited by filtherton; 01-16-2004 at 08:23 PM..
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Old 01-16-2004, 09:53 AM   #43 (permalink)
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Quote:
Saudia Arabia may be nominally an Islamic country but it is not an Islamic government. It is a monarchy, not a caliphate. Its culture is as much tied to the pre-Islamic Arab era as to Islamic teaching itself. And the "indoctrinated" people who side with Osama bin Laden also hate their own government, which they do not recognize as legitimate.
False the Saud family has a long stemming pack with the Wahabi natives. Wahabism is the only brand of Islam allowed in the country. I don't know what nominally means, but if them being forced to go the mosque 5 times a day or face penalties is not a sign of how hardcore they are, I don't know what is.

You sound like a half way decent guy, and I'm sorry if I caused any personal offense. But I'm sticking by what I said, The Arab-Muslim culture is dominated by people who do anything to keep others down, if its not tribal leaders and warfare in afganistan and Pakistan, its theocracy's and shaaria law Iran, Saudia Arabia, Indonesia, Afganistan, Kuwait, Uzbekistan, Nigeria, Sudan. And again like I said, I never knocked all the people, all I said was the culture and religion was all to easy to enable them.

As far as Filtherton's pedophile comment, sure someone could say it, doesn't mean that it would hold any water. Pedophilia in the church is horrible, but that comes down to a bunch of psychologically sick fucks, and is perhaps more a testament to our culture here in America rather then the church, kinda funny how even though there were so many priest pedophiles in the church that it was still lower percentage then that of the regular population though eh?

I mean I also suppose if we want to talk about secularists doing stupid shit we could talk about Saddam or even Stalin. In russia if you didn't buy into the Soviet heroes you were shipped to the gulags, or if you tried to practice your choice brand of Islam in Iraq you were detained, beaten, and possible killed.

Your arguement about the refugee catholics has some merit I'll admit. But again the culture and raising of said somalians holds water too, they are nothing but a bunch of common street thugs, and I can't say that about all of them, but every experience I've had with Somalia's has either turned violent or I left before it could, and it has happened many a times.
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Old 01-16-2004, 10:08 AM   #44 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by filtherton
You know what? I think that an ignorant secularist could say the exact same thing about catholicism and be just about as accurate as you are. How long did catholicism enable pedophiles?
Not a good comparision.

A (corrupt, in my mind) hierarchy enabled pedophiles in the Catholic church, but never in my years of going to them did I hear the priest stand up and say that pedophilea was good or that we should go practice it.

Unfortunately, there are Mullahs that preach the murder of innocents every day in the Muslim world.

Secular Catholics raised a firestorm of protest that has forced the Church into major changes in the way it approaches priest pedophilea.

Occasionally you read or hear about a Muslim group (usually) in the Western countries that denounces Muslim radicals. And you can read about praise of such radicals that same day (usually in the East or on Western Muslim BBS's).
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Old 01-16-2004, 10:14 AM   #45 (permalink)
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Quote:
1.

He was supported by Revelation from his Lord; he did not speak of his own whims and desires, but of that which was revealed to him. He said:

“You will fight the Jews and will prevail over them, so that a rock will say, ‘O Muslim! There is Jew behind me, kill him!’” (Reported by Muslim, 2921; al-Bukhaari, 2926).

According to a report narrated by Muslim from Abu Hurayrah, the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “The Hour [the Day of Judgement] will not begin until the Muslims fight the Jews and kill them. A Jew will hide behind a rock or a tree, and the rock or tree will say, ‘O Muslim, O slave of Allaah! There is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!’ – except for the gharqad (box thorn), for it is one of the trees of the Jews.” (Reported by Muslim, 2922).
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Old 01-16-2004, 12:54 PM   #46 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by hiredgun
In addition, this statistic is highly skewed because most immigrants who come to the West alone are men. Therefore there is a disproportionate amount of men (of their ethnicity) and they must get brides from back home rather than their new country.
hiredgun, I was talking about *third-generation* immigrants. I.e. kids of kids of immigrants. There should be some 50% women in this group, but apparently these aren't good enough. Whether that is because of the parents or the kids is pretty much irrelevant IMHO.
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Old 01-16-2004, 08:49 PM   #47 (permalink)
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Mojo, Lebell,
You got me. Bad comparison. My apologies.
I was trying to make the point that Islam is not the problem. You can infer whatever you like from the actions of some muslims, but you must also be aware that, all things being relative, any atrocity that can be attributed to muslims has at the very least a comparable atrocity that can be attributed to christians. Neither religion is fundamentally flawed(unless you're an atheist). At times they just happen to be misappropriated by dysfunctional people with ulterior motives.

And as long as we are confusing arabs and muslims maybe this will shed some light:
http://www.iiie.net/Intl/PopStats.html

Sorry if it is difficult to read. If you have problems the link is right there.

Quote:
Muslim Population Statistics

Note that the information here is a few years old so the populations are slightly higher. The statistics are also updated periodically as more accurate information becomes available. A question mark indicates that the information has not been found yet. Please report any errors or new information to light@iiie.net.


Country Total Population Muslim Percentage Number Of Muslims
Total 6,068,708,934 25% 1,509,819,727
Afghanistan 26,813,057 99% 26,544,926
Albania 3,510,484 70% 2,457,339
Algeria 31,736,053 99% 31,418,692
Angola 10,366,031 25% 2,591,508
Antigua Barbuda 66,970 ? ?
Argentina 37,384,816 2.1% 785,081
Armenia 3,336,100 1% 33,361
Aruba 70,007 5% 3,500
Australia 19,357,594 2% 387,152
Austria 8,150,835 15% 1,222,625
Azerbaijan 7,771,092 93.4% 7,258,200
Bahamas, The 297,852 ? ?
Bahrain 645,361 100% 645,361
Bangladesh 131,269,860 83% 108,953,984
Barbados 275,330 ? ?
Belarus 10,350,194 5% 517,510
Belgium 10,258,762 4% 410,350
Belize 256,062 ? ?
Benin 6,590,782 20% 1,318,156
Bhutan 2,049,412 5% 102,471
Bolivia 8,300,463 ? ?
Bosnia-Herzegovina 3,922,205 40% 1,568,882
Botswana 1,586,119 5% 79,306
Brazil 174,468,575 1.1% 1,919,154
Brunei 343,653 67% 230,248
Bulgaria 7,707,495 13% 1,001,974
Burkina-Faso 12,272,289 50% 6,136,145
Burma 41,994,678 4% 4,597,563
Burundi 6,223,897 20% 1,244,779
Cambodia 12,491,501 1% 124,915
Cameroon 15,803,220 55% 8,691,771
Canada 31,592,805 1.5% 473,892
Cape Verde 405,163 ? ?
Central African Republic 3,576,884 55% 1,967,286
Chad 8,707,078 85% 7,401,016
Chile 15,328,467 ? ?
China 1,273,111,290 6% 76,386,677
Christmas Island 2,771 10% 277
Cocos (Keeling) Island 633 57% 361
Colombia 40,349,388 ? ?
Comoros 596,202 98% 584,278
Congo, Dem. Rep. of the 53,624,718 10% 5,362,472
Congo, Republic of the 2,894,336 15% 434,150
Costa Rica 3,773,057 ? ?
Cote d'Ivoire 14,762,445 60% 8,857,467
Croatia 5,004,112 1.20% 60,049
Cuba 11,184,023 ? ?
Cyprus 744,609 33% 245,721
Czech Republic 10,264,212 2% 205,284
Denmark 5,352,815 2% 107,056
Djibouti 427,642 94% 401,983
Dominican Republic 8,581,477 ? ?
Ecuador 13,183,978 ? ?
Egypt 69,536,644 94% 65,364,446
El Salvador 6,237,662 ? ?
Equatorial Guinea 431,282 25% 107,821
Eritrea 3,427,883 80% 2,742,306
Estonia 1,423,316 ? ?
Ethiopia 57,171,662 65% 37,161,580
Fiji 782,381 11% 86,062
Finland 5,175,783 1% 51,758
France 59,551,227 3% 1,786,537
Gabon 1,172,798 1% 11,728
Gambia 1,204,984 90% 1,084,486
Gaza Strip 923,940 98.7% 911,929
Georgia 5,219,810 11% 574,179
Germany 83,536,115 3.4% 2,840,228
Ghana 17,698,271 30% 5,309,481
Gibraltar 28,765 8% 2,301
Greece 10,538,594 1.5% 158,079
Guatemala 12,974,361 ? ?
Guinea 7,411,981 95% 7,041,382
Guinea Bissau 1,151,330 70% 805,931
Guyana 712,091 15% 106,814
Haiti 6,964,549 ? ?
Honduras 6,406,052 ? ?
Hong Kong 6,305,413 1% 63,054
Hungary 10,106,017 6% 606,361
Iceland 277,906 ? ?
India 1,029,991,145 14% 144,198,760
Indonesia 228,437,870 88% 201,025,326
Iran 66,094,264 99% 65,433,321
Iraq 21,422,292 97% 20,779,623
Ireland 3,840,838 2% 76,817
Israel 5,421,995 14% 759,079
Italy 57,460,274 1% 574,603
Jamaica 2,665,636 ? ?
Japan 125,449,703 1% 1,254,497
Jordan 4,212,152 95% 4,001,544
Kazakstan 16,916,463 51.2% 8,661,229
Kenya 28,176,686 29.5% 8,312,122
Korea, North 21,968,228 ? ?
Korea, South 47,904,370 1% 479,044
Kuwait 1,950,047 89% 1,735,542
Kyrgyzstan 4,529,648 76.1% 3,447,062
Laos 5,635,967 2% 112,719
Latvia 2,385,231 ? ?
Lebanon 3,776,317 70% 2,643,422
Lesotho 1,970,781 10% 197,078
Liberia 2,109,789 30% 632,937
Libya 5,445,436 100% 5,445,436
Lithuania 3,610,535 1% 36,105
Macedonia 2,104,035 30% 631,211
Madagascar 13,670,507 20% 2,734,101
Malawi 9,452,844 35% 3,308,495
Malaysia 19,962,893 52% 10,380,704
Maldives 270,758 100% 270,758
Mali 9,653,261 90% 8,687,935
Malta 375,576 14% 52,581
Mauritania 2,336,048 100% 2,336,048
Mauritius 1,140,256 19.5% 222,350
Mayotte 100,838 99% 99,830
Mexico 101,879,171 ? ?
Moldova 4,431,570 ? ?
Mongolia 2,496,617 4% 99,865
Morocco 29,779,156 98.7% 29,392,027
Mozambique 17,877,927 29% 5,184,599
Namibia 1,677,243 5% 83,862
Nepal 22,094,033 4% 883,761
Netherlands 15,568,034 3% 467,041
New Zealand 3,864,129 1% 38,641
Nicaragua 4,918,393 ? ?
Niger 9,113,001 91% 8,292,831
Nigeria 126,635,626 75% 94,976,720
Norway 4,438,547 1.5% 66,578
Oman 2,186,548 100% 2,186,548
Pakistan 144,616,639 97% 140,278,140
Panama 2,655,094 4% 106,204
Paraguay 5,734,139 ? ?
Papua New Guinea 5,049,055 ? ?
Peru 27,483,864 ? ?
Philippines 74,480,848 14% 10,427,319
Poland 38,633,912 2% 772,678
Portugal 10,066,253 ? ?
Puerto Rico 3,937,316 ? ?
Qatar 547,761 100% 547,761
Reunion 679,198 20% 135,840
Romania 21,657,162 20% 4,331,432
Russia 145,470,197 9% 13,092,318
Rwanda 7,312,756 14% 1,023,786
Saudi Arabia 19,409,058 100% 19,409,058
Senegal 9,092,749 95% 8,638,112
Sierra Leone 4,793,121 65% 3,115,529
Singapore 3,396,924 17% 577,477
Slovakia 5,414,937 2% 108,299
Slovenia 1,951,443 1% 19,514
Somalia 9,639,151 100% 9,639,151
South Africa 41,743,459 2% 834,869

Spain 40,037,995 ? ?
Sri Lanka 18,553,074 9% 1,669,777
Sudan 31,547,543 85% 26,815,412
Suriname 436,418 25% 109,105
Swaziland 998,730 10% 99,873
Sweden 9,800,000 3.6% 320,000
Switzerland 7,283,274 ? ?
Syria 15,608,648 90% 14,047,783
Taiwan 22,370,461 ? ?
Tajikistan 5,916,373 85% 5,028,917
Tanzania 29,058,470 65% 18,888,006
Thailand 58,851,357 14% 8,239,190
Togo 4,570,530 55% 2,513,792
Trinidad and Tobago 1,272,385 12% 152,686
Tunisia 9,019,687 98% 8,839,293
Turkey 66,493,970 99.8% 66,360,982
Turkmenistan 4,149,283 87% 3,609,876
Uganda 20,158,176 36% 7,256,943
Ukraine 48,760,474 ? ?
United Arab Emirates 3,057,337 96% 2,935,044
United Kingdom 58,489,975 2.7% 1,579,229
United States 278,058,881 3.5% 9,732,061
Uruguay 3,360,105 ? ?
Uzbekistan 23,418,381 88% 20,608,175
Venezuela 23,916,810 ? ?
Vietnam 79,939,014 1% 799,390
West Bank 2,090,713 75% 1,568,035
Western Sahara 222,631 100% 222,631
Yemen 13,483,178 99% 13,348,346
Yugoslavia 10,677,290 19% 2,028,685
Zambia 9,159,072 15% 1,373,861
Zimbabwe 11,271,314 15% 1,690,697
There are 1.5 billion muslims in the world. How many aren't arabs? Feel free to figure that out for youself, i'm too lazy.
How many of these muslims have no problem with america and our freedom?
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Old 01-17-2004, 12:34 AM   #48 (permalink)
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Once again to point out to people - Arab does not equal Islamic. Not to mention that many people Islamic hate to be labeled Arab.
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Old 01-17-2004, 12:55 AM   #49 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Zeld2.0
Once again to point out to people - Arab does not equal Islamic. Not to mention that many people Islamic hate to be labeled Arab.
I have a couple Persian friends... They *hate* it...
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Old 01-17-2004, 05:58 AM   #50 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by filtherton

And as long as we are confusing arabs and muslims maybe this will shed some light:
http://www.iiie.net/Intl/PopStats.html

Sorry if it is difficult to read. If you have problems the link is right there.
Your source might not be correct.

Your source:
Quote:
Note that the information here is a few years old so the populations are slightly higher.

...

Sweden 9,800,000 3.6% 320,000
My source:
Quote:
Population: 8,876,744 (July 2002 est.)
http://www.faqs.org/docs/factbook/geos/sw.html

It's mistakes like that that makes me doubt things
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Old 01-17-2004, 08:27 AM   #51 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Zeld2.0
Once again to point out to people - Arab does not equal Islamic. Not to mention that many people Islamic hate to be labeled Arab.
Arab-Islamic culture fosters militant Islamic cultures across the globe, especially in Africa and SE Asia. So whats a good term for it? Most of the left doesn't seem to like Islamofacist, so give us a term for these throw backs so we can get back to talking about issues over semantics.
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Old 01-19-2004, 09:57 PM   #52 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mehoni
Your source might not be correct.

Your source:


My source:

http://www.faqs.org/docs/factbook/geos/sw.html

It's mistakes like that that makes me doubt things
I bet it is still accurate enough to support the argument that most muslims aren't arabs. Which was the reason i posted it, but if you have better worldwide figures by all means, post away.


Quote:
Posted by ustwo
Arab-Islamic culture fosters militant Islamic cultures across the globe, especially in Africa and SE Asia. So whats a good term for it? Most of the left doesn't seem to like Islamofacist, so give us a term for these throw backs so we can get back to talking about issues over semantics.
Was timothy mcveigh a christofascist? How about the branch davidians? If it is only a matter of semantics perhaps we could call them 15th century catholicism-ists, that is, if we aren't going to worry about being too pc.
-or-
You could call them terrorists and leave it at that. Seems pretty accurate, doesn't imply nasty things about a huge group of people, many of whom wouldn't lift a finger to harm america.
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Old 01-19-2004, 10:38 PM   #53 (permalink)
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Were Timothy Mcveigh's actions and motivations of a religious nature? No the man was a lone wolf racist who hated the federal government. Davidians? Not sure whom they are, if your referring to the nuts from Waco, well thats just a horrible attempt at trying to paint christians anywhere near the ballpark of Islamofacists.

Filtherton why do you always insist on throwing horribly unrelated and off base cases of would be christian wrong doing? Is it an attempt at trying to justify the actions taken in Islam (in the context) of this thread? I might even in certain cases concede points of christians doing insane things i.e. abortion clinics. But, again, in the context of this thread they are NO WHERE near the level of anything that is going in in the Islamic world, yet you latch on to a few minute examples and have no response to any of the clear points that show these horrible trends in Islam... whats your deal?

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Last edited by Mojo_PeiPei; 01-19-2004 at 11:27 PM..
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Old 01-19-2004, 11:40 PM   #54 (permalink)
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Location: In the land of ice and snow.
Quote:
Originally posted by Mojo_PeiPei
Were Timothy Mcveigh's actions religious? No. Davidians? Not sure whom they are, if your referring to the nuts from Waco, well thats just a horrible attempt at trying to paint christians anywhere near the ballpark of Islamofacists.

Filtherton your christophobia/ willing ignorance to the world around you is astounding.

Yes, i'm a "christaphobe," i am frightened of jesus christ.
My christophobia?? LOL that's rich.
Perhaps if you had read some of my posts in the philosophy forum you might see that i have attempted to defend certain aspects of christianity from some of the more outspoken athiests on the tfp. I shouldn't even have to address this with you though, since you obviously have no idea what i am about when it comes to religion you have no grounds to make such claims. Sometimes i have to remind myself that grown-ups don't need to use name-calling in their arguments. Perhaps that is a good lesson for all of us.


I'm pretty sure the branch davidians were suffering from a twisted form of chistianity. While obl is no david koresh, he is no mohammed either.

As for mcveigh... He comitted his act of terrorism on the two year aniversary of the massacre at the branch davidian compound. He also had ties to the christian identity movement. The christain identity is "based" on some crazy ass interpretations of the words of jesus christ. They believe that nonwhites are soulless "mud-people". It appears chritianity can be missapropriated too. Maybe this is the christ you were refering to when you called me a "christaphobe".
Maybe i am just being clumsy in all this though.
My point is that you cannot infer the motivations of an entire group of people by the actions of a minority of that group of people. How hard is that to understand?
In comparing islam with christianity i was attempting, apparently misguidedly so, to help you to see the this issue from my perspective in terms which are already familiar to you. That is to say, christianty seems to have a lot in common with islam. There are many christians who are horrible people who do horrible things. Sometimes these people base their actions on misinterpretations of christianity. This doesn't mean that christianity is the root cause of these people's actions. There also are many muslims who do disgusting things in the name of islam who are actually just really fucked up people using islam to attach an air of authority to their misguided power-grabs/need to feel important. These people probably do think they are righteous just as david koresh thought he was righteous, or the church during the spanish inquisition. This doens't mean that islam or christianity are inherently evil, just that its followers are human with human flaws.
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