Evidence cited of Russian arms in Iraq - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

seretogis · 01-10-2004, 07:14 AM

Quote:

Evidence cited of Russian arms in Iraq
By Paul Richter and Kim Murphy, Los Angeles Times, 1/10/2004

WASHINGTON -- US officials have found evidence corroborating White House allegations that Russian companies sold Saddam Hussein high-tech military equipment that threatened US forces during the invasion of Iraq last March, a senior State Department official said yesterday.

The official said the United States has found proof that Russian companies exported night-vision goggles and radar-jamming equipment to Iraq, the official said. The evidence includes the equipment itself and proof that it was used during the war, according to the official. Such exports would violate the terms of United Nations sanctions against Iraq.

"We have corroborated some of that evidence," the official told a group of reporters.

While insisting that the matter is "now in the past," he said that the Bush administration "never received entirely satisfactory explanations" of its charges, and that the issue "is still a sensitive one in the relationship."

"It's an issue that, shall we say, did not do much for strengthening trust," the official added.

The issue burst into public view last March 24, just days after the war began, when President Bush called Russia's president, Vladimir Putin, to voice his concern about the goggles, jamming equipment, and advanced antitank missiles. The White House said at the time that it had "credible evidence" that the equipment came from Russian companies.

The goggles and jammers were of special concern to the United States because US forces, seeking to wage war over great distances with low casualties, rely on night-vision devices and high-tech missile and aircraft guidance systems.

The goggles use heat sensors to enable infantrymen to continue operations even in the dead of night; the jammers block signals from satellites that guide cruise missiles and "smart" bombs.

Putin staunchly denied the charges. But the allegation added friction to a relationship that was already under strain at the time because of Russia's vocal opposition to the US-led invasion.

Yevgeny V. Khorishko, press secretary for the Russian Embassy in Washington, said yesterday that though the allegations were first raised before the war, "we have never received real proof from the American side that Russian firms were involved in the delivery of this equipment."

The State Department official declined to elaborate on what the proof is.

Khorishko noted that the United States and Russia are now involved in broad talks aimed at developing new ways to halt the spread of weapons around the world. He said he could not comment, under the terms of those talks, on whether they addressed US concerns about the night-vision and jamming equipment.

In raising the issue last year, US officials contended that although the hardware was allegedly sold by private companies, the Russian government could have taken steps to oversee and interdict the traffic. They maintained at the time that the gear had been sold relatively recently, and with an understanding that it could be used in such a war.

High-tech military equipment is a top export for Russia. Though the country's military budget has shrunk dramatically, its military industry exports about $5 billion annually in tanks, planes, small arms, and other equipment, which end up -- directly or through transshipment -- in dozens of countries.

During the war, US military sources gave differing accounts on how much the Russian-made equipment affected US forces. Some military officials were quoted as blaming jamming gear for sending missiles off course and into Iran and Saudi Arabia, and as contending that Russian made Kornet antitank missiles destroyed at least two American M-1 A-1 tanks, the first time such tanks had been destroyed in battle.

But other officials contended they had little effect during the rapid sweep to Baghdad.

Some Russian arms industry executives and military analysts asserted that the charges about the jamming equipment were made only to explain away the inaccuracy of the US-made "smart bombs."

© Copyright 2004 Globe Newspaper Company.

How interesting. This, to me, is just anoter example of why the UN is broken and out of date. There is no reason to abide by its sanctions, and nothing will happen to Russia for violating the sanction on Iraq. Without consequence, there is no power in the law.

Endymon32 · 01-10-2004, 07:30 AM

Hey
Isnt Russia one of the security council nations that tried to block us from going to war? As Alice said, curiouser and couriouser...

Strange Famous · 01-10-2004, 08:08 AM

The UN is as powerless to stop Russia selling weapons to Iraq as it is to stop America selling them to Nicuruaga, or to stop the UK supporting Pinnochet in Chile.

I don't think it is really news to be honest, all the superpowers sell weapons to anyone that will buy them - although the fact that Iraqi's had Russian weapons is no proof of anything - lots of people have Russian weapons and they easily could have been sold them by a second party.

But why shouldnt Russia arm Saddam Hussain? Are you trying to claim that the UK or US or France never has?

Someone showed an article on here before that said they had even bought Brazilian weapons.

Sparhawk · 01-10-2004, 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by seretogis
LINKY LINKY

How interesting. This, to me, is just anoter example of why the UN is broken and out of date. There is no reason to abide by its sanctions, and nothing will happen to Russia for violating the sanction on Iraq. Without consequence, there is no power in the law.

That's a bit of a non sequiter, if you ask me. To me, this is just another example of a corrupt Russian government slowly trying to be a world player, while simultaneously choking off freedom and democracy at home.

Besides, we don't have to mention how Halliburton set up shell companies to do business with Iraq during the sanctions, do we

Strange Famous · 01-10-2004, 09:33 AM

I dont think Russia has ever stopped being a world player.

Hitler attacked what he thought was a backward peasant country, and the Nazi army, the most powerful of the twentieth century, was crushed.

Sparhawk · 01-10-2004, 09:36 AM

So sorry, but he attacked the Soviet Union, which fell apart in '91. And Putin is using an ugly form of nationalism to put it back together in this century.

Strange Famous · 01-10-2004, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sparhawk
So sorry, but he attacked the Soviet Union, which fell apart in '91. And Putin is using an ugly form of nationalism to put it back together in this century.

I disagree, most of "White Russia" especially the Ukraine, fought with the Germans in WWII.

Dilbert1234567 · 01-10-2004, 10:28 AM

I’m sorry but this article makes me laugh, everyone sells everything to everyone. The article gives no dates for any of the arms deal. Further we sold tons or stuff to Iraq in the 80's we sold them biological weapons (or just plans for them I’m not sure)

But to bash Russia for selling to Iraq is ludicrous who hasn't sold stuff to them. all this is is propaganda, it hides the real facts between the deals.

Lebell · 01-10-2004, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dilbert1234567
...we sold them biological weapons (or just plans for them I’m not sure)...

To be exact, we sold them research materials including various viruses and bacterium and toxins.

At the time, his govt. was friendly to ours and there was no reason not to.

We never sold them biological weapons or the plans to make them.

Strange Famous · 01-10-2004, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lebell
To be exact, we sold them research materials including various viruses and bacterium and toxins.

At the time, his govt. was friendly to ours and there was no reason not to.

We never sold them biological weapons or the plans to make them.

And that this time America was fully aware of the use of nerve gas by Hussain against Kurdish villages in 1989, yes?

madp · 01-10-2004, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Sparhawk wrote:
Besides, we don't have to mention how Halliburton set up shell companies to do business with Iraq during the sanctions, do we

A statement like that requires documentation. Do you have a reputable source? I haven't read this anywhere.

Quote:

And that this time America was fully aware of the use of nerve gas by Hussain against Kurdish villages in 1989, yes?

This is a hotly disputed notion. At the time, Iran and Iraqi forces were hitting each other chemical mortar rounds in Northern Iraq, often fighting over Kurdish territory. Most everyone assumed that it was strictly military engagements until stories later started leaking out about a gas attack that killed and injured thousands of Kurdish villagers. There's even one ex-CIA guy who is going around claiming that Iran, not Iraq, gassed the Kurds: http://www.nytimes.com/2003/01/31/op...l&position=top

Dilbert1234567 · 01-10-2004, 01:58 PM

as i understand it we sold them the strains of them so that they could culture them themselves

james t kirk · 01-10-2004, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dilbert1234567
I’m sorry but this article makes me laugh, everyone sells everything to everyone. The article gives no dates for any of the arms deal. Further we sold tons or stuff to Iraq in the 80's we sold them biological weapons (or just plans for them I’m not sure)

But to bash Russia for selling to Iraq is ludicrous who hasn't sold stuff to them. all this is is propaganda, it hides the real facts between the deals.

Thak you for the best post on this thread.

At least one individual here sees past the rhetoric.

Lebell · 01-10-2004, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Strange Famous
And that this time America was fully aware of the use of nerve gas by Hussain against Kurdish villages in 1989, yes?

I honestly don't remember the timeline.

Rekna · 01-10-2004, 03:19 PM

Just so I get all your opinnions straight. Your saying it is ok that Russia was selling Iraq weapons..... So stop complaing about the US supporting Iraq when they were fighting Iran and stop complaining about the US supporting pakastan who supported bin laden when he was fighting the Soviet Union.

MSD · 01-11-2004, 12:42 PM

If you look, almost every nation, militia, police force, terrorist organization, or any armed group that does not use US-made weapons uses Russian or Soviet-made Kalashnikov rifles. A few others use Israeli-made UZI's, and others use an assortment of others, essentially whatever they get their hands on.

Iraq undoubtedly bought weapons from the Soviets before sanctions were in place, they bought weapons from the US before sanctions were established. After the sanctions, black market suppliers behaved exactly the same, and continued to sell weapons to those who should not have them. Night vision equipment and anti-tank missiles are small and easy to smuggle. Once weapons left the Russian warehouses, Russia had no more control over where they went than I would have over the cold germs that escape when I cough.

madp · 01-11-2004, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Once weapons left the Russian warehouses, Russia had no more control over where they went than I would have over the cold germs that escape when I cough.

Wait, didn't Ollie North say something like that 14 years ago?

Mehoni · 01-11-2004, 01:06 PM

Superbelt wrote this, this has the info you're looking for:

http://www.albylien.net/usa.html

Superbelt · 01-11-2004, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Strange Famous
And that this time America was fully aware of the use of nerve gas by Hussain against Kurdish villages in 1989, yes?

http://www.casi.org.uk/info/usdocs/usiraq80s90s.html

Quote:

1984
The SD announced on 6 March that, based on "available evidence," it "concluded" that Iraq used "lethal chemical weapons" (specifically mustard gas) in fresh fighting with Iran.[13] On 20 March, U.S. intelligence officials said that they had "what they believe to be incontrovertible evidence that Iraq has used nerve gas in its war with Iran and has almost finished extensive sites for mass-producing the lethal chemical warfare agent".[14]

http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/2002_cr/s092002.html

Quote:

The United States almost certainly knew from its own
satellite imagery that Saddam was using chemical weapons
against Iranian troops. When Saddam bombed Kurdish rebels and
civilians with a lethal cocktail of mustard gas, sarin, tabun
and VX in 1988, the Reagan administration first blamed Iran, before
acknowledging, under pressure from congressional Democrats,
that the culprits were Saddam's own forces. There was only
token official protest at the time. Saddam's men were
unfazed. An Iraqi audiotape, later captured by the Kurds,
records Saddam's cousin Ali Hassan al-Majid (known as Ali
Chemical) talking to his fellow officers about gassing the
Kurds. "Who is going to say anything?" he asks. "The
international community? F----k them!"

http://www.rehberg.net/arming-iraq.html

Quote:

November, 1983. A National Security Directive states that the U.S would do "whatever was necessary and legal" to prevent Iraq from losing its war with Iran. (1) (15)

...

July, 1984. CIA begins giving Iraq intelligence necessary to calibrate its mustard gas attacks on Iranian troops. (19)

...

March, 1986. The United States with Great Britain block all Security Council resolutions condemning Iraq's use of chemical weapons, and on March 21 the US becomes the only country refusing to sign a Security Council statement condemning Iraq's use of these weapons. (10)

...

May, 1986. The US Department of Commerce licenses 70 biological exports to Iraq between May of 1985 and 1989, including at least 21 batches of lethal strains of anthrax. (3)

quote:
May, 1986. US Department of Commerce approves shipment of weapons grade botulin poison to Iraq. (7)

...

April, 1988. US Department of Commerce approves shipment of chemicals used in manufacture of mustard gas. (7)

Yeah, we knew.

onetime2 · 01-12-2004, 05:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Strange Famous
I dont think Russia has ever stopped being a world player.

Hitler attacked what he thought was a backward peasant country, and the Nazi army, the most powerful of the twentieth century, was crushed.

Nazi army the most powerful in the twentieth century? Umm, no.

Superbelt · 01-12-2004, 05:53 AM

a bit OT:

The Nazis were only defeated because they extended too far into Russia when winter was coming. This cut off their supply lines and disabled their tanks and planes.

Russia's hardware was specially designed to be effective in the cold and snow.

Russia was strategically smart to draw Germany as far into the country as they did. And lucky at Germanys timing. But in a straight up fight, Russia would have been fucked.

onetime2 · 01-12-2004, 06:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Superbelt
a bit OT:

The Nazis were only defeated because they extended too far into Russia when winter was coming. This cut off their supply lines and disabled their tanks and planes.

Russia's hardware was specially designed to be effective in the cold and snow.

Russia was strategically smart to draw Germany as far into the country as they did. And lucky at Germanys timing. But in a straight up fight, Russia would have been fucked.

Absolutely, but it was a tried and true strategy from Russia. Germany knew going into it that was going to be a problem. So, they failed to overcome these problems showing they weren't quite as great as they thought.

But anyway, my disagreement over the statement stemmed from the fact that post WWII several armies became far more powerful than Germany. The Soviet Union and, of course, the US as well as several other nuclear equipped armies.

01-10-2004, 08:08 AM	#3 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	The UN is as powerless to stop Russia selling weapons to Iraq as it is to stop America selling them to Nicuruaga, or to stop the UK supporting Pinnochet in Chile. I don't think it is really news to be honest, all the superpowers sell weapons to anyone that will buy them - although the fact that Iraqi's had Russian weapons is no proof of anything - lots of people have Russian weapons and they easily could have been sold them by a second party. But why shouldnt Russia arm Saddam Hussain? Are you trying to claim that the UK or US or France never has? Someone showed an article on here before that said they had even bought Brazilian weapons. __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas

01-10-2004, 09:33 AM	#5 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	I dont think Russia has ever stopped being a world player. Hitler attacked what he thought was a backward peasant country, and the Nazi army, the most powerful of the twentieth century, was crushed. __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas

01-10-2004, 09:36 AM	#6 (permalink)
Sparhawk Dubya Location: VA	So sorry, but he attacked the Soviet Union, which fell apart in '91. And Putin is using an ugly form of nationalism to put it back together in this century. __________________ "In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work. It's incredibly hard. It's - and it's hard work. I understand how hard it is. I get the casualty reports every day. I see on the TV screens how hard it is. But it's necessary work. We're making progress. It is hard work."

01-10-2004, 10:28 AM	#8 (permalink)
Dilbert1234567 Devils Cabana Boy Location: Central Coast CA	I’m sorry but this article makes me laugh, everyone sells everything to everyone. The article gives no dates for any of the arms deal. Further we sold tons or stuff to Iraq in the 80's we sold them biological weapons (or just plans for them I’m not sure) But to bash Russia for selling to Iraq is ludicrous who hasn't sold stuff to them. all this is is propaganda, it hides the real facts between the deals. __________________ Donate Blood! "Love is not finding the perfect person, but learning to see an imperfect person perfectly." -Sam Keen

01-10-2004, 01:58 PM	#12 (permalink)
Dilbert1234567 Devils Cabana Boy Location: Central Coast CA	as i understand it we sold them the strains of them so that they could culture them themselves __________________ Donate Blood! "Love is not finding the perfect person, but learning to see an imperfect person perfectly." -Sam Keen

01-10-2004, 07:30 AM	#2 (permalink)
Endymon32 Banned	Hey Isnt Russia one of the security council nations that tried to block us from going to war? As Alice said, curiouser and couriouser...

01-10-2004, 03:19 PM	#15 (permalink)
Rekna Junkie	Just so I get all your opinnions straight. Your saying it is ok that Russia was selling Iraq weapons..... So stop complaing about the US supporting Iraq when they were fighting Iran and stop complaining about the US supporting pakastan who supported bin laden when he was fighting the Soviet Union.

01-11-2004, 12:42 PM	#16 (permalink)
MSD The sky calls to us ... Super Moderator Location: CT	If you look, almost every nation, militia, police force, terrorist organization, or any armed group that does not use US-made weapons uses Russian or Soviet-made Kalashnikov rifles. A few others use Israeli-made UZI's, and others use an assortment of others, essentially whatever they get their hands on. Iraq undoubtedly bought weapons from the Soviets before sanctions were in place, they bought weapons from the US before sanctions were established. After the sanctions, black market suppliers behaved exactly the same, and continued to sell weapons to those who should not have them. Night vision equipment and anti-tank missiles are small and easy to smuggle. Once weapons left the Russian warehouses, Russia had no more control over where they went than I would have over the cold germs that escape when I cough.

01-11-2004, 01:06 PM	#18 (permalink)
Mehoni Insane Location: Within the Woods	Superbelt wrote this, this has the info you're looking for: http://www.albylien.net/usa.html __________________ There seem to be countless rituals and cultural beliefs designed to alleviate their fear of a simple biological truth - all organisms eventually perish.

01-12-2004, 05:53 AM	#21 (permalink)
Superbelt This vexes me. I am terribly vexed. Location: Grantville, Pa	a bit OT: The Nazis were only defeated because they extended too far into Russia when winter was coming. This cut off their supply lines and disabled their tanks and planes. Russia's hardware was specially designed to be effective in the cold and snow. Russia was strategically smart to draw Germany as far into the country as they did. And lucky at Germanys timing. But in a straight up fight, Russia would have been fucked.