The Racist Tapestry of Lord of the Rings - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Endymon32 · 12-30-2003, 01:02 AM

http://paris.indymedia.org/article.p..._article=13086

Quote:

The Racist Tapestry of Lord of the Rings !

By Lloyd Hart

I don't imagine that it was the intention of the director or the producers of the Lord of the Rings films to paint a racist stereotypical tapestry over what could be described as a basic set of principles of humanity's behavior in the natural environment and with each other. However, the fact is that the only people of skin color in the entire three part series of films are all associated with the Dark Lord Sauron, the destruction of the earth and all of its occupants. Not to mention the elephant riding mercenaries that resemble the cultures of the Arab world as well as Africa, Persia and East Asia and the fact that the Monarch of the land of Rohan, King Théoden a white guy yelled out "You great warriors of the West" in the final part of his speech to rouse the troops into battle in the third film.

In these times when a homicidal maniac from Texas (the Texas capital punishment policy under Bush) has stolen the American throne and called for a "crusade" against the "evil doers" in nations that white people have been invading, terrorizing, raping and pillaging in for 5000 years with zero provocation, I think we could manage some cultural sensitivity in our popular culture which one must acknowledge has a powerful propaganda affect on the general population that participates in it.

Can you imagine how people of skin color, of Persian, Arab and East Asian ethnic background feel when they come out of these films where all the heroes are white and all the "evil doers" are of dark skin. Being married to an Asian American I watch people disregard my wife everyday while regarding me, simply because of her skin color. Being part of a European family that has lived on the North American continent for 400 years I've been lucky enough to gain perspective that when you create an evil character (Uruk-hai) that resembles native Americans as they have done in the Lord of the Rings films a great deal of cultural and racial alienation will occur.

I am sure that once the filmmakers read this article there will be claims that they had to stay true to the story that J. R. R. Tolkien wrote, but the fact is, African and Asian cultures have always been a part of the European fabric whose ancient legends and fairy tales gave birth to J. R. R. Tolkien's epic portrayal of the battle between good and evil. And what about the Ancient Picts, a tattooed darker skinned cultured that once dominant in the UK. As someone who has grown up in one of the nation's of the Commonwealth of the British Empire, I know for a fact that J. R. R. Tolkien's generation were deeply influenced and thus deeply moved by all those people of skin color that fought alongside white members of the British forces in World War One and World War Two forming lifelong friendships and deep emotional ties.

In fact all Europe's mathematics, reading and writing and technological advancements in transportation and warfare are all based on African and Asian concepts. The reason that Western medicine has not advanced to the enlightened technological level as Chinese herbal medicine and why most Western technology is diametrically opposed to all life on this planet, poisoning our air and water and causing widespread disease and death is for the simple fact that the Freemasons and the Church have not yet let go of the death grip they have on each other's throats. In other words, the enlightened knowledge that the church has attempted to destroy that the Freemasons attempted to save and capitalize on with Western patents has turned into a death struggle that has created destructive technological paradigms here in the West that are now being forced on the populations of the entire earth destabilizing life and bringing with them the pollution of the air and water that once existed only in Christendom.

Of course there are redeeming images and ideas portrayed in the films such as the Ents protecting the forests by destroying the industrial military complex as well as the fact that white people can be turned to evil to join forces with all the evil dark skinned man flesh eating Orcs and Uruk-hai.

It is important to understand that young people are impressionable and influenced by the symbols foisted on them by the popular culture. It would not have been that difficult to make a contemporary version of the Lord of the Rings that included the heroic symbols of people of skin color. I think J.R.R. Tolkien wouldn't have minded including people of skin color as heros in these films if he were alive today. Especially after witnessing the rise of the civil rights movements in both the U.S. and the U.K.. I'm so glad that the Dwarfs, Elves and Hobits finally got their due but unfortunately this was washed away by the lack of heroic images of people of skin color. After watching the Lord of the Rings films I thank the universe and Mother Earth for the Rap/hip-hop culture and the counterbalancing influence the Rap/hip-hop culture has on the youth here in America and around the world.

All I have to say is let er rip......

I was sent this link by a friend. Is it any suprise that this deluded author praises "hip hop culture for counter balancing the racist influence of The Lord of The Rings?

Phaenx · 12-30-2003, 01:21 AM

It is important for my kids to understand that this guy is a pussy, and they could probably kick his ass.

almostaugust · 12-30-2003, 03:33 AM

What a load of shit. Jackson made it pretty much spot on to Tolkiens vision. The 'colored peoples' are mostly all not even supposed to be humans. This goes for the Elves and Dwarfs too. And 'Faramir' makes a clear stament that the arabic looking dude that he kills is no more evil than he, just fighting for a different cause.
I cant believe what idiots some people are. The LOTR has so many good ideals and values about friendship, and courage and nature and life. In direct contrast to the SHITLOAD of crappy films that promote cosmetic values etc.
The fact that someone wrote a fucking essay about this is just sad.

lurkette · 12-30-2003, 06:38 AM

I don't think it's sad - I think it's dead on.

First, let me say that I am a HUGE, geeky fan of Tolkien, and of the movies. I read the books once a year, I've read the Silmarilion a dozen times, have the Atlas of Middle Earth, can recite the lineage of Elrond, and wear clothes with Sindarin elvish on them. I think Peter Jackson is a fucking god. So, Tolkien-philia and geek cred established...

...I did notice in the movie that the good guys are all classic caucasian-looking Northern European hotties, and the bad guys who aren't orcs are all either Asian/Middle Eastern-looking or swarthy mediterranean-looking barbarians. You might say it's true to Tolkien's vision, but nowhere in his books is a physical description of the Southrons given, and it would have been possible (and perhaps wise, given the cultural climate of the day) to be less derivative of Middle Eastern culture in the design of these characters.

I do think you have to take this with a grain of salt, though. The movie is racist only to the extent that we live in a racist society, which we do. Does it reinforce negative stereotypes of non-Western cultures? Yup. Should that override the movie's deeper themes of honor, friendship, courage, and perseverance? Nope. We live in a flawed world, and this is a flawed (but awesome!) movie. If the alternative is to only show white people in all the roles, we'd have heard criticism of that, too. And color-blind casting of the good guys in this case would have been a huge distraction from the story, IMHO.

I do draw the line at saying kids shouldn't be exposed to this movie because it portrays racial stereotypes. Young kids shouldn't see it because it's gory and scary, but I see no problem with letting older kids see it. You have to look at pop culture as a gestalt, not expect every piece of work to be all things to all people. So they're exposed to stereotypes here, but they get a racially diverse heroic cast in the Matrix films, and they listen to rap and blah blah blah. As long as the overall whole of pop culture that kids are exposed to is diverse, the individual pieces of it can be taken for what they are. And it's also stupid to assume that just because people see negative stereotypes we're going to buy into them like brainwashed slugs. I was troubled by the Middle Eastern-looking villains, but I also enjoyed the movie. The audience is neither monolithic nor stupid.

Rekna · 12-30-2003, 09:47 AM

I call BS and here is why.

The lord of the rings is far from raceist in fact it is the opposite. The whole story is about a group of 9 companions from varing races working together for a common good. Despite the harsh hatred between dwarves and elves gimli and legolas become great friends showing that even when a society breads hatred twoard another friendship is possible.

Sometimes i just can't stand people who point out race on everything. Many times it is the people who pull the race card right away that are racest themselfs. Racism goes both ways unfortunatly we only focus on one way.

nanofever · 12-30-2003, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rekna
I call BS and here is why.

The lord of the rings is far from raceist in fact it is the opposite. The whole story is about a group of 9 companions from varing races working together for a common good. Despite the harsh hatred between dwarves and elves gimli and legolas become great friends showing that even when a society breads hatred twoard another friendship is possible.

Sometimes i just can't stand people who point out race on everything. Many times it is the people who pull the race card right away that are racest themselfs. Racism goes both ways unfortunatly we only focus on one way.

Hate to break it to you but the " 9 companions from varing races" all look pretty much like western europeans.

PS. Spot-on analysis Lurkette, if I had a bag of cookies I would hand you several

Dragonlich · 12-30-2003, 10:37 AM

How about Saruman and his henchman? Looked quite western to me...

I think people are reading too much into this thing, but I could be naive.

Strange Famous · 12-30-2003, 10:42 AM

This guy has a point, it's one that is too obvious.

White, fair, European is supposed to be good, brave, strong...

Dark, Black, Swarthy is supposed to equal untrustworthy, dangerous, malicious...

This film is no better than the incredibly offensive portrayal of "Jar Jar Binks" in Star Wars.

Halx · 12-30-2003, 11:33 AM

Being a mix of strong, white, valiant lineage and dark, shifty, evil lineage, I can honestly say that despite the racial undertones of the movie, I don't give a crap.

It's a work of fantasy.

I will not incriminate anyone for this.

Though, my girlfriend did point out that it seemed quite political to have the Southrons dressed like Arabs.

Lebell · 12-30-2003, 12:29 PM

People will always see racism where they want to.

I remember talking to a very nice, intelligent woman who was convinced that Star Wars was racist because Darth Vader was black and Luke Skywalker was white.

My advice to them is to get a life.

Strange Famous · 12-30-2003, 12:55 PM

Stars Wars (the first one) was made racist by C3PO or whatever he was called, a grotesque parody of a "happy slave"

mml · 12-30-2003, 12:56 PM

I have to admit that it struck me that the Southrons were essentially Arabs, but as it is a work of fantasy, I really think this is blown out of proportion. While Mr. Hart's essay may have some merit, he clearly has a large multicultural chip on his shoulder and frankly loses points when he begins to blame Freemasons and the Church for all our ills. His final comment about hip hop culture and its benefits for society is a whole topic unto itself.

edited for extremely poor spelling

Rekna · 12-30-2003, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by nanofever
Hate to break it to you but the " 9 companions from varing races" all look pretty much like western europeans.

PS. Spot-on analysis Lurkette, if I had a bag of cookies I would hand you several

You can't see the forest through the trees? Your getting caught up on details and not seeing the big picture of the movie.

The moral of the story is how friendship and comorodity will last through the hardest times, we may have differences but if we come together we can overcome all evil. If we stop look at people as where they are from and just look at them as people we will have peace. This is far from a racist story.

People who see everything as white and black are blind. People need to stop thinking of race the first time they see someone. Race should be outlawed on all applications. I'm a firm believer that afermative action is just another form of raceism. Afermative action does not treat the problems only the symptoms and in the process it discriminates against the non-minorities. There are some hellacious examples of AA and school admissions that make me sick.

People want to many freebies in this world and expect everything to be handed to them on a silver platter, people should earn what they get that way they respect what they have. Something bad happens to someone and it is imediattly because of their race and the fact that they are being oppressed (Micheal Jackson anyone?).

Let's face it as a long as we keep distinguishing between race on every thing that comes in front of us we will have raceism in the world reguardless which side points it out.

Rekna · 12-30-2003, 01:02 PM

people that want to change things to make them more diverse even though they originally wern't also bother me. For instance the 9/11 flag memorial had 3 white fireman proping a flag up in the rubble but somehow the statue has 3 different races. Should we go change Mount Rushmoir and make Lincoln black, Washington mexican, and Jefferson asian? We shouldn't try to rewrite history to make it more diverse instead work to write the future that is more diverse by taking away the concept of races.

Endymon32 · 12-30-2003, 01:14 PM

The Southrons were described as "Swarthy" the same word used to describe many Middle Eastern persons. Also, you have to realise that the Lord of the Rings was based a lot on Finnish culture, and mythology. So its only natural that whites would be the heros. Just as a whites were the badguys, except for Sauron who was not human at all. This whole article has no merit. Anyone can with an axe to grind can find racism in anything, but that is more telling of the person looking for racism than the author of the work being reviewed.
I mean C3po as the happy slave? Come one, get real.

Mojo_PeiPei · 12-30-2003, 01:26 PM

I assume that the "bad guys" are all of darker origin because its the easiest way to associate good vs. evil.

This is seriously one of the most disturbing things I have ever read, and only reinforces that political correctness has run amok.

Endymon32 · 12-30-2003, 01:40 PM

No one but I takes this author to task for his endorsment of that violent, sexist, racists hip hop culture as a defence agains all that is promoted in Lord of the Rings? No one realises that this man swipes at American culture as taking over the world and then praises hip hop ( an american culture) as the CURE for American culture taking over the world?

The writer of this article is a loon of the highest calibre.

Strange Famous · 12-30-2003, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Endymon32
No one but I takes this author to task for his endorsment of that violent, sexist, racists hip hop culture as a defence agains all that is promoted in Lord of the Rings? No one realises that this man swipes at American culture as taking over the world and then praises hip hop ( an american culture) as the CURE for American culture taking over the world?

The writer of this article is a loon of the highest calibre.

A lot of hip hop is not sexist or violent, and very little of it is racist. The whole of rap culture is not G Unit and Mobb Deep and people like that you know...

Conclamo Ludus · 12-30-2003, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Strange Famous
A lot of hip hop is not sexist or violent, and very little of it is racist. The whole of rap culture is not G Unit and Mobb Deep and people like that you know...

The whole of the Lord of the Rings is not "Southrons looking Arab" and "heroes looking European", either. You can choose which pieces to pull out and be offended by. Anyone could find offense in anything they want to. I'm more in agreement with Lurkette to some extent. I think this guy is whacko, but we live in an ethnocentric society, and always have. We identify with eachother easier that way. Of course the heroes of these books will look European, they were written by a European person. If Tolkien were Arab, it would probably be quite a different book, and if Peter Jackson was Asian, it would have been a totally different looking movie. We naturally glorify people we identify with and villify things that are mysterious to us, neither Jackson nor Tolkien should be dragged through the mud for it.

Somebody on a LOTR thread mentioned that they thought that adding the giant eagles to the movie was just a lame attempt at US patriotism.

If I remember they weren't "added" to the movie.

This is blown way out of proportion.

::wanders off to find something to be offended by::

Strange Famous · 12-30-2003, 02:50 PM

Hey, I loved the book, and I didnt think the first two films did a bad job, although they couldnt live up to the book.

But the fact is, I think a lot of people are sick of Hollywood films where the good guys are all white and the bad guys are all "foriegners"

debaser · 12-30-2003, 03:26 PM

If I remember correctly, the Nazgul are all old white men in the movie.

To all those who are bitching, rest assured. I hear all of the elves in Jacksons rendition of The Hobbit are going to be black (oops, sorry, African-American, doh, did it again, Southron-Sylvanian, dammit, I mean swarthy...)

This is the dumbest issue ever. If you are offended by this film, you need to euthanize yourself.

Zeld2.0 · 12-30-2003, 04:30 PM

The author of the article is a nut, get over it.

Though i'l lagree with lurkette on the racial tones in society anyways.

P.S. The story was based on English, Finnish, and other European legends - and if you take it as Tolkien put the location of Middle-Earth as relative to Europe, the Southrons would be around the Turkish area.

And do note it has nothing to do with them being 'bad guys' or whatever - in fact, some of the best lines in the book (or the Extended Edition of TTT) has them wonder if they were really evil or if they ahd just been decieved.

archer2371 · 12-30-2003, 07:17 PM

I'm gonna have to go with Zeld2.0 and lurkette on this one. (Yeah, exceptions are everywhere). There are racial overtones in society because that is how we identify ourselves (unfortunately). However, if I remember correctly Tolkien did describe the Southrons and Haradrim as those who had been darkened by the sun. I could be wrong as it has been awhile since my last readthrough, but I thought Jackson was spot on with Tolkien's vision. Also, this guy hasn't done his homework and it's evident in the very first paragraph, when referring to King Theoden (who had allready DIED!) instead of Aragorn, King of Gondor as the man who rallies the troops. I'm sure there will be another article like this complaining about not enough women (even though the role of Arwen has been upped and Galadriel is a prominent figure in the story). The Lord of the Rings is an archetypal story, and it needs to be taken as such, not as a story with a message that only white people can save the day.

rogue49 · 12-30-2003, 07:22 PM

First...the book was written in the 1940's in England.
Attitudes were a bit different back then.
And he wrote for his audience (English...very white people)

If an author is writing from their own experience or for a particular audience,
is it really racist?
Are Asian books racist, or Middle Eastern, or African, etc...no, duh.

Second, most of the books both good and evil have a variety of races, creed & color.

Golum is pasty white, as is worm-tongue.
Orcs & goblins are red, and grey, green, etc. (multi-colored)
Races & countries work together in this book.

BTW..."swarthy" could mean a LOT of different descriptions.

Enjoy the books for what they are,
a saga of Good & Honor vs. Evil & deception.
The giving against the selfish.

Sparhawk · 12-30-2003, 09:07 PM

I think this movie quote is a good response to the original article

Quote:

Hooper: For years in this industry, whenever an African American character, hero or villain, was introduced - usually by white artists and writers - they got slapped with racist names that singled them out as Negroes. Now, my book, "White-Hating Coon," don't have none of that bullshit. The hero's name is Maleekwa, and he's descended from the black tribe that established the first society on the planet, while all you European motherfuckers were hiding out in caves and shit, all terrified of the sun. He's a strong role model that a young black reader can look up to. Cause I'm here to tell you, the chickens is coming home to roost, y'all. The black man's no longer gonna play the minstrel in the realm of comics and sci-fi fantasy. We keepin it real, and we gonna get respect by any means necessary.

Holden: Ah, come on, that's a bunch of horse shit! Lando Calrissian was a black guy! You know, he got to fly the Millennium Falcon, what's the matter with you?

Hooper: Who said that?!?

Holden: I did! Lando Calrissian is a positive black role model in the realm of Science Fiction/Fantasy.

Hooper: Fuck Lando Calrissian! Uncle Tom nigger! Always some white boy gotta invoke "the holy trilogy"! Bust this - those movies are about how the white man keeps the brother man down - even in a galaxy far, far away. Check this shit. You got cracker farm-boy Luke Skywalker, Nazi poster boy - blond hair, blue eyes. And then you've got Darth Vader: the blackest brother in the galaxy. Nubian God.

Banky: What's a Nubian?

Hooper: Shut the fuck up! Now Vader, hes's a spiritual brother, with the force and all that shit. Then this cracker Skywalker gets his hands on a lightsaber, and the boy decides he's gonna run the fucking universe - gets a whole Klan of whites together, and they're gonna bust up Vader's hood :the Death Star. Now what the fuck do you call that?!?

Banky: Intergalactic Civil War!

Hooper: Gentrification. They're gonna drive out the black element, to make the galaxy quote, unquote "safe" for white folks. Jedi's the most insulting installment, because Vader's beautiful, black visage is sullied when he pulls off his mask to reveal a feeble, crusty white man! They're trying to tell us that deep inside, we all want to be white!

Banky: Well isn't that true?

Hooper: (pulling out a gun and knocking over his podium, firing the gun at Banky) BLACK RAGE! BLACK RAGE! I'LL KILL ANY WHITE FOLKS I LAY MY MOTHERFUCKIN' EYES ON!

I don't think we should rewrite Tolkien, anymore than I think we should put white guys in Kurosawa movies (unless it's Tom Cruise). Why can't we just get away from editorializing literature and let it stand for itself, a product of its time and environment.

12-30-2003, 01:21 AM	#2 (permalink)
Phaenx The Northern Ward Location: Columbus, Ohio	It is important for my kids to understand that this guy is a pussy, and they could probably kick his ass. __________________ "I went shopping last night at like 1am. The place was empty and this old woman just making polite conversation said to me, 'where is everyone??' I replied, 'In bed, same place you and I should be!' Took me ten minutes to figure out why she gave me a dirty look." --Some guy

12-30-2003, 03:33 AM	#3 (permalink)
almostaugust Junkie Location: Oz	What a load of shit. Jackson made it pretty much spot on to Tolkiens vision. The 'colored peoples' are mostly all not even supposed to be humans. This goes for the Elves and Dwarfs too. And 'Faramir' makes a clear stament that the arabic looking dude that he kills is no more evil than he, just fighting for a different cause. I cant believe what idiots some people are. The LOTR has so many good ideals and values about friendship, and courage and nature and life. In direct contrast to the SHITLOAD of crappy films that promote cosmetic values etc. The fact that someone wrote a fucking essay about this is just sad. __________________ 'And it's been a long December and there's reason to believe Maybe this year will be better than the last I can't remember all the times I tried to tell my myself To hold on to these moments as they pass'

12-30-2003, 06:38 AM	#4 (permalink)
lurkette My future is coming on Moderator Emeritus Location: east of the sun and west of the moon	I don't think it's sad - I think it's dead on. First, let me say that I am a HUGE, geeky fan of Tolkien, and of the movies. I read the books once a year, I've read the Silmarilion a dozen times, have the Atlas of Middle Earth, can recite the lineage of Elrond, and wear clothes with Sindarin elvish on them. I think Peter Jackson is a fucking god. So, Tolkien-philia and geek cred established... ...I did notice in the movie that the good guys are all classic caucasian-looking Northern European hotties, and the bad guys who aren't orcs are all either Asian/Middle Eastern-looking or swarthy mediterranean-looking barbarians. You might say it's true to Tolkien's vision, but nowhere in his books is a physical description of the Southrons given, and it would have been possible (and perhaps wise, given the cultural climate of the day) to be less derivative of Middle Eastern culture in the design of these characters. I do think you have to take this with a grain of salt, though. The movie is racist only to the extent that we live in a racist society, which we do. Does it reinforce negative stereotypes of non-Western cultures? Yup. Should that override the movie's deeper themes of honor, friendship, courage, and perseverance? Nope. We live in a flawed world, and this is a flawed (but awesome!) movie. If the alternative is to only show white people in all the roles, we'd have heard criticism of that, too. And color-blind casting of the good guys in this case would have been a huge distraction from the story, IMHO. I do draw the line at saying kids shouldn't be exposed to this movie because it portrays racial stereotypes. Young kids shouldn't see it because it's gory and scary, but I see no problem with letting older kids see it. You have to look at pop culture as a gestalt, not expect every piece of work to be all things to all people. So they're exposed to stereotypes here, but they get a racially diverse heroic cast in the Matrix films, and they listen to rap and blah blah blah. As long as the overall whole of pop culture that kids are exposed to is diverse, the individual pieces of it can be taken for what they are. And it's also stupid to assume that just because people see negative stereotypes we're going to buy into them like brainwashed slugs. I was troubled by the Middle Eastern-looking villains, but I also enjoyed the movie. The audience is neither monolithic nor stupid. __________________ "If ten million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing." - Anatole France

12-30-2003, 10:42 AM	#8 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	This guy has a point, it's one that is too obvious. White, fair, European is supposed to be good, brave, strong... Dark, Black, Swarthy is supposed to equal untrustworthy, dangerous, malicious... This film is no better than the incredibly offensive portrayal of "Jar Jar Binks" in Star Wars. __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas

12-30-2003, 11:33 AM	#9 (permalink)
Halx Please touch this. Owner/Admin Location: Manhattan	Being a mix of strong, white, valiant lineage and dark, shifty, evil lineage, I can honestly say that despite the racial undertones of the movie, I don't give a crap. It's a work of fantasy. I will not incriminate anyone for this. Though, my girlfriend did point out that it seemed quite political to have the Southrons dressed like Arabs. __________________ You have found this post informative. -The Administrator [Don't Feed The Animals]

12-30-2003, 09:47 AM	#5 (permalink)
Rekna Junkie	I call BS and here is why. The lord of the rings is far from raceist in fact it is the opposite. The whole story is about a group of 9 companions from varing races working together for a common good. Despite the harsh hatred between dwarves and elves gimli and legolas become great friends showing that even when a society breads hatred twoard another friendship is possible. Sometimes i just can't stand people who point out race on everything. Many times it is the people who pull the race card right away that are racest themselfs. Racism goes both ways unfortunatly we only focus on one way.

12-30-2003, 10:37 AM	#7 (permalink)
Dragonlich 42, baby! Location: The Netherlands	How about Saruman and his henchman? Looked quite western to me... I think people are reading too much into this thing, but I could be naive.

12-30-2003, 12:29 PM	#10 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	People will always see racism where they want to. I remember talking to a very nice, intelligent woman who was convinced that Star Wars was racist because Darth Vader was black and Luke Skywalker was white. My advice to them is to get a life. __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate!

12-30-2003, 12:55 PM	#11 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	Stars Wars (the first one) was made racist by C3PO or whatever he was called, a grotesque parody of a "happy slave" __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas

12-30-2003, 12:56 PM	#12 (permalink)
mml Adrift Location: Wandering in the Desert of Life	I have to admit that it struck me that the Southrons were essentially Arabs, but as it is a work of fantasy, I really think this is blown out of proportion. While Mr. Hart's essay may have some merit, he clearly has a large multicultural chip on his shoulder and frankly loses points when he begins to blame Freemasons and the Church for all our ills. His final comment about hip hop culture and its benefits for society is a whole topic unto itself. edited for extremely poor spelling __________________ Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so." -Douglas Adams

12-30-2003, 01:02 PM	#14 (permalink)
Rekna Junkie	people that want to change things to make them more diverse even though they originally wern't also bother me. For instance the 9/11 flag memorial had 3 white fireman proping a flag up in the rubble but somehow the statue has 3 different races. Should we go change Mount Rushmoir and make Lincoln black, Washington mexican, and Jefferson asian? We shouldn't try to rewrite history to make it more diverse instead work to write the future that is more diverse by taking away the concept of races.

12-30-2003, 01:14 PM	#15 (permalink)
Endymon32 Banned	The Southrons were described as "Swarthy" the same word used to describe many Middle Eastern persons. Also, you have to realise that the Lord of the Rings was based a lot on Finnish culture, and mythology. So its only natural that whites would be the heros. Just as a whites were the badguys, except for Sauron who was not human at all. This whole article has no merit. Anyone can with an axe to grind can find racism in anything, but that is more telling of the person looking for racism than the author of the work being reviewed. I mean C3po as the happy slave? Come one, get real. Last edited by Endymon32; 12-30-2003 at 01:38 PM..

12-30-2003, 01:26 PM	#16 (permalink)
Mojo_PeiPei Kiss of Death Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow	I assume that the "bad guys" are all of darker origin because its the easiest way to associate good vs. evil. This is seriously one of the most disturbing things I have ever read, and only reinforces that political correctness has run amok. __________________ To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

12-30-2003, 01:40 PM	#17 (permalink)
Endymon32 Banned	No one but I takes this author to task for his endorsment of that violent, sexist, racists hip hop culture as a defence agains all that is promoted in Lord of the Rings? No one realises that this man swipes at American culture as taking over the world and then praises hip hop ( an american culture) as the CURE for American culture taking over the world? The writer of this article is a loon of the highest calibre.

12-30-2003, 02:50 PM	#20 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	Hey, I loved the book, and I didnt think the first two films did a bad job, although they couldnt live up to the book. But the fact is, I think a lot of people are sick of Hollywood films where the good guys are all white and the bad guys are all "foriegners" __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas

12-30-2003, 03:26 PM	#21 (permalink)
debaser Sir, I have a plan... Location: 38S NC20943324	If I remember correctly, the Nazgul are all old white men in the movie. To all those who are bitching, rest assured. I hear all of the elves in Jacksons rendition of The Hobbit are going to be black (oops, sorry, African-American, doh, did it again, Southron-Sylvanian, dammit, I mean swarthy...) This is the dumbest issue ever. If you are offended by this film, you need to euthanize yourself. __________________ Fortunato became immured to the sound of the trowel after a while.

12-30-2003, 04:30 PM	#22 (permalink)
Zeld2.0 Cherry-pickin' devil's advocate Location: Los Angeles	The author of the article is a nut, get over it. Though i'l lagree with lurkette on the racial tones in society anyways. P.S. The story was based on English, Finnish, and other European legends - and if you take it as Tolkien put the location of Middle-Earth as relative to Europe, the Southrons would be around the Turkish area. And do note it has nothing to do with them being 'bad guys' or whatever - in fact, some of the best lines in the book (or the Extended Edition of TTT) has them wonder if they were really evil or if they ahd just been decieved.

12-30-2003, 07:17 PM	#23 (permalink)
archer2371 Sarge of Blood Gulch Red Outpost Number One Location: On the front lines against our very enemy	I'm gonna have to go with Zeld2.0 and lurkette on this one. (Yeah, exceptions are everywhere). There are racial overtones in society because that is how we identify ourselves (unfortunately). However, if I remember correctly Tolkien did describe the Southrons and Haradrim as those who had been darkened by the sun. I could be wrong as it has been awhile since my last readthrough, but I thought Jackson was spot on with Tolkien's vision. Also, this guy hasn't done his homework and it's evident in the very first paragraph, when referring to King Theoden (who had allready DIED!) instead of Aragorn, King of Gondor as the man who rallies the troops. I'm sure there will be another article like this complaining about not enough women (even though the role of Arwen has been upped and Galadriel is a prominent figure in the story). The Lord of the Rings is an archetypal story, and it needs to be taken as such, not as a story with a message that only white people can save the day. __________________ "This ain't no Ice Cream Social!" "Hey Grif, Chupathingy...how bout that? I like it...got a ring to it." "I have no earthly idea what it is I just saw, or what this place is, or where in the hell O'Malley is! My only choice is to blame Grif for coming up with such a flawed plan. Stupid, stupid Grif."

12-30-2003, 07:22 PM	#24 (permalink)
rogue49 Loser	First...the book was written in the 1940's in England. Attitudes were a bit different back then. And he wrote for his audience (English...very white people) If an author is writing from their own experience or for a particular audience, is it really racist? Are Asian books racist, or Middle Eastern, or African, etc...no, duh. Second, most of the books both good and evil have a variety of races, creed & color. Golum is pasty white, as is worm-tongue. Orcs & goblins are red, and grey, green, etc. (multi-colored) Races & countries work together in this book. BTW..."swarthy" could mean a LOT of different descriptions. Enjoy the books for what they are, a saga of Good & Honor vs. Evil & deception. The giving against the selfish.