Endymon32

This is in reply to Moore's responce to some of the right-wing "Whacko Attackos" on his Web site. His own sourcing, however, often disproves him.

He posted the entire text of a Heston speech, alongside the clips that ran in the film. With a multi-window browser, however, one can run both at once and follow along. It's obvious how Moore edited the speech to skip conciliatory remarks and make the remaining ones sound harsh.

He admits to a flaw in his altering of an anti-Dukakis commercial—without admitting that he edited the commercial. In the film, his editing appears to be an original part of the advertisement.

He stands by the assertion that the Lockheed-Martin plant near Columbine makes "weapons of mass destruction," and provides an interview with an employee to prove it. The clip, however, shows that they currently make rockets...that carry satellites...which in turn can guide missiles. They have not made a nuclear weapon since the mid-1960s and only partially assembled Peacekeeper MX missiles in the mid-1980s.

Phaenx

Yes, the moral is that Michael Moore is full of shit.

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soccerchamp76

My point in this thread was not to praise Moore or even agree with him. I wanted to discuss solely the topic of why the U.S. has so many gun-related murders when compared to other like-countries.

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Ustwo

This is politically incorrect, and I don't have a source for you currently (I think its in the last thread on this) but gun crime and gun death for whites in the US is LOWER then it is in Europe. The real question to ask is why is minority gun crime/deaths are so high *cough welfare state cough*.

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soccerchamp76

FBI Stats 2002: http://www.fbi.gov//ucr/cius_02/xl/02tbl2-13.xls

*Caution* The document is an Excel document.

Total murders: 14,054
Murders involving firearms: 9,369
Murders involving handguns: 7,176


Ustwo, Whites committed 33.9% of the murders in the U.S. in 2002 and blacks committed 35.5% of the murders. The other percents were 'Other' and 'Unknown'.


P.S. More people were killed with "personal" weapons (hand, fist, feet) than shotguns and rifles COMBINED.

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Endymon32

so whites that comprise about 75 % of the population commited 33.9% of the murders, while blacks that compirse 12% of the population committed 35.5% of the murders. This only supports Ustwos point.

And why Micheal Moore didnt go to the "hood" and talk to any blacks when trying to find out why America is "gun obessessed" in his crap fest BFC is very suspect.

soccerchamp76

I wasn't out to disprove Ustwo, just to provide some facts.

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Brian Griffin: Ah, if my memory serves me, this is the physics department.
Chris Griffin: That would explain all the gravity.

seretogis

By the way in those FBI stats, I believe that suicides are counted as 'murders' even though they really should not be.

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Endymon32

I believe that all homicides were included in BFC, and that includes suicides, justified self defence, and justified police shootings. Its just another glaring LIE in Moore's body of lies. Thanks for reminding me Seretogis.

True the actual number is still too high, but Moore used the true murder rates of germany, and canada, and then comparied them to ALL gun deaths in the USA. Not quite fair is it? But no one ever accused Moore of being fair.

SLM3

Can you show me your source on this? I'd be interested to see the difference. Does the US not provide a list that apparently Germany and Canada do?

What was the US gun-related homicide rate minus the suicides, etc.? I'm assuming it must be more in line with Canada, the UK, Japan, and so on.


SLM3

Endymon32

Like i said, its still much higher, you must have missed that point. But like I Said, why does Moore have to inflate the numbers if his point is so righteous?

SLM3

I'd still like the source, if you don't mind.



SLM3

Endymon32

Go to the FBI website. I assume you have a computer.

Endymon32

Moore also picks a year with high american gun deaths and compares it to Germany and canadian LOW years, not the same years...

Endymon32

Here is a partial list of murders per 100,000 people. This takes in ALL murder, not jsut guns. Note the nations with strict gun control all have higher murder rates than than the US. Also note that the US is LOWER than the world average.
South Africa 45

Swaziland 88

Botswana 20

Zimbabwe 18

Colombia 41

Sudan 31

Holland 15

Lebanon 13

Sri Lanka 12

Russia 11

USA 5.2

Germany 4

UK 2

International Average 5,5

Still our murder rate is TOO high, but Germany's is not to far behind, and this is one of the nations that MOORE Champions. Also you have to note that Englands is on an upward trend, four years in a row, while the US is on a downward trend. IT was 5.6 as of two years ago. Not much but any lowering of that number is welcome. I am off to look for Canada's

SLM3

Wow, their search engine sucks. Just give me a link to the page you used.


SLM3

Endymon32

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/viort.htm

Check out this site SLM the search engine is better and the graphs are better than the FBIs

National Crime Victimization Survey Violent Crime Trends, 1973-2002
Adjusted violent victimization rates
Number of victimizations per 1,000 population age 12 and over

Total
violent crime Aggravated assault Simple
assault
Year Murder Rape Robbery

1973 47.7 0.1 2.5 6.7 12.5 25.9
1974 48.0 0.1 2.6 7.2 12.9 25.3
1975 48.4 0.1 2.4 6.8 11.9 27.2
1976 48.0 0.1 2.2 6.5 12.2 27.0
1977 50.4 0.1 2.3 6.2 12.4 29.4
1978 50.6 0.1 2.6 5.9 12.0 30.0
1979 51.7 0.1 2.8 6.3 12.3 30.3
1980 49.4 0.1 2.5 6.6 11.4 28.8
1981 52.3 0.1 2.5 7.4 12.0 30.3
1982 50.7 0.1 2.1 7.1 11.5 29.8
1983 46.5 0.1 2.1 6.0 9.9 28.3
1984 46.4 0.1 2.5 5.8 10.8 27.2
1985 45.2 0.1 1.9 5.1 10.3 27.9
1986 42.0 0.1 1.7 5.1 9.8 25.3
1987 44.0 0.1 2.0 5.3 10.0 26.7
1988 44.1 0.1 1.7 5.3 10.8 26.3
1989 43.3 0.1 1.8 5.4 10.3 25.8
1990 44.1 0.1 1.7 5.7 9.8 26.9
1991 48.8 0.1 2.2 5.9 9.9 30.6
1992 47.9 0.1 1.8 6.1 11.1 28.9
1993 49.1 0.1 1.6 6.0 12.0 29.4
1994 51.2 0.1 1.4 6.3 11.9 31.5
1995 46.1 0.1 1.2 5.4 9.5 29.9
1996 41.6 0.1 0.9 5.2 8.8 26.6
1997 38.8 0.1 0.9 4.3 8.6 24.9
1998 36.0 0.1 0.9 4.0 7.5 23.5
1999 32.1 0.1 0.9 3.6 6.7 20.8
2000 27.4 0.1 0.6 3.2 5.7 17.8
2001 24.7 0.1 0.6 2.8 5.3 15.9
2002 22.8 0.1 0.7 2.2 4.3 15.5


Wow while the violent American's crime rates are going down each year, Europe, notably England are rising dramatically.
England has had four years in a row of rising murder rates, 47%, 32% 55% and 35% increase per year, so much for Moore's English peaceful paradise.

And every time I search for Canadian murder rates, I get comparisons to American HOMICIDE rates. They are not the same. Every non natural death is ruled a homicide, weather its a suicide, self defence or justifed police shooting, while not all homicides are murders.
So whem Moore used the American homicide rate and comapared it other nations Murder rates, he was delibratly skewing his numbers to serve his cause.
If anyone has a correct murder rate as compared to homicide rate for canada please post it , I am off to bed.

Endymon32

Errr SLM I meant to refer you the Bureau of Justice Statistics webpage. I has all you need to know about the US.

SLM3

Actually, I'm looking for your source on the fact that Moore used different rates to compare the US to Canada and Germany. The page you sent me to is on violent crime rates based on specific criteria.

I want your source on the US rates with and without suicides, accidental deaths, etc. and the source that shows Canadian and German rates that already exclude those factors as well.

I want to see this drastic difference that totally discredits Moore's point that homicide rates are rediculously different between the US and other Western states.

Thanks.

SLM3

Strange Famous

Gun crime is rising in the UK, but it is insignificant compared to the US, this is because largely, it is much harder to get and keep a gun in the UK

And what possible "recreation" could involve firearms?

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for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
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without being uncovered."

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Ustwo

I'm not going to look it up again, because its wasted effort, but the crime rate including violent crime is MUCH higher in London then New York. Murder rates are higher in NY then London but is mostly due to a higher criminal on criminal murders.

Yes for the average citizen NY city is safer then London, you have less of a chance of getting mugged, raped, beat up, or burglarized. If you are a criminal on the other hand, you have a greater chance of getting killed in NY, so maybe you should move to London.

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Strange Famous

and the point is this... in London you might get mugged and beaten up, in NYC you get shot...

When people are armed, disputes or crimes that are violent become fatal.

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"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Phaenx

Shooting things is fun. Thus, shooting is a recreational sport/hobby.

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Lebell

I get back from vacation and you guys are on MM again???

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Strange Famous

Shooting living creatures for fun is inhumanly cruel.

Shooting inaminate objects for fun seems needlessly destructive to me, and I struggle to see how it is entertaining. if people like it so much they can play with waterpistols or toy guns that fire little plastic pellets that couldnt hurt anyone.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Ustwo

I know, sorry.

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Phaenx

Shooting animals is fun, especially if you finally catch that son of a bitch ground hog that's tearing up your garden, or sighting that deer that you've been waiting for for 8 hours.

Tough luck for them but that's the way it goes. Over here white tail deer can be a real problem for the environment as well as other species, we have hunting seasons to thin their ranks out so overall we have a stronger eco-system. Like just recently New Jersey had a bear season I think, peta flipped out but they don't look at the big picture. Indeed, hunters are very kind to animals, even if they're extremely tasty or make snazzy rugs.

I agree that people shouldn't kill animals just out of sadism, but hunting deer and varmints is far from unneccesary.

Also, water pistols or pellet guns? Hahahaha, no. It is entertaining, though I doubt you've ever fired a gun of any type.

__________________
"I went shopping last night at like 1am. The place was empty and this old woman just making polite conversation said to me, 'where is everyone??' I replied, 'In bed, same place you and I should be!' Took me ten minutes to figure out why she gave me a dirty look." --Some guy

Strange Famous

No I have never fired a gun, although I have fired a water pistol. I dont really want to shoot a gun either, I dont think I'd like it.

Eco Systems do need to be controlled, by rangers and environmental employee's, not people shooting things just for fun.

Foxhunting is probably worse than hunting with guns, but not much. In my opinion both should be banned, as should fishing.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Ustwo

More government and restricted freedom, you are going to NEED to learn to fire a gun if you expect me to stand for it

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Phaenx

It's pretty fun, you should try it. Like basketball, only something blows up.

It is controlled by those guys, who do you think says when you can or can't hunt deer/bears/ducks? How many you can kill? The government does of course. Peta doesn't like it but they aren't really looking at the big picture.

Fox's aren't really varmints, and there's not much reason to kill them anyways unless you own chickens. Groundhogs, prarie dogs, opossums, etc. are what I'm talking about. They're huge pests, and can really destroy crops. You can pretty much obliterate them at will and still not even begin to hurt their population numbers.

__________________
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Endymon32

just like the rangers are controling the Nutria that are destoying the environment in New Orleans? As per usual, Strange Famous is dead wrong.

Endymon32

Again you ignore my points. No were did I say that the US murder rates were lower then anyother of those listed nations. But you ignore that point. I Said moore EXAGGERATES his postion by unfairly compaing our HOMICIDE rates to other nations MURDER rates. He does this to make his claim look MORE than it actually is. And as I explained this three times you fail to understand the subtly of Moore's manipulation of the facts.

Here is a link I only posted it three times so it really shows me how committed you are too actually doing the research instead of just blindly following the lying likes of Micheal Moore.
http://www.bowlingfortruth.com/bowli.../countries.htm


Here is more back up to my claims From www.Mooreexposed.com
To pound home its point, Bowling flashes a dramatic count of gun homicides in various countries: Canada 165, Germany 381, Australia 65, Japan 39, US 11,127. Now that's raw numbers, not rates -- Here's why he doesn't talk rates.

Verifying the figures was difficult, since Moore does not give a year for them. A lot of Moore's numbers didn't check out for any period I could find. As a last effort at checking, I did a Google search for each number and the word "gun" or words "gun homicides" Many traced -- only back to webpages repeating Bowling's figures. Moore is the only one using these numbers.

Germany: Bowling says 381: 1995 figures put homicides at 1,476, about four times what Bowling claims, and gun homicides at 168, about half what it claims: it's either far too high or far too low. ( Jörg Altmeppen has emailed me a link to a German site putting the figure at Moore's 381, in 1998 -- I have to depend upon his translation here, as German is one of the languages in which I can only curse.).

Australia: Bowling says 65. This is very close, albeit picking the year to get the data desired. Between 1980-1995, firearm homicides varied from 64-123, although never exactly 65. In 2000, it was 64, which was proudly proclaimed as the lowest number in the country's history.

US: Bowling says 11,127. FBI figures put it a lot lower. They report gun homicides were 8,719 in 2001, 8,661 in 2000, 8,480 in 1999. (2001 UCR, p. 23). Here's the table:



[You can download the entire report, in .pdf format, by clicking here; look for pt. 2 at p.23.] To be utterly fair, this is a count of the 13,752 homicides for which police submitted supplemental data (including weapon used): the total homicide count was 15,980. But what weapon, if any, was used in the other homicide is unknown to us, and was unknown to Moore.
After an email tip, I finally found a way to compute precisely 11,127. Ignore the FBI, use Nat'l Center for Health Statistics figures. These are based on doctors' death certificates rather than police investigation.

Then -- to their gun homicide figures, add the figure for legally-justified homicides: self-defense and police use against criminals. Presto, you have exactly Moore's 11,127. I can see no other way for him to get it.

Since Moore appears to use police figures for the other countries, it's hardly a valid comparison. More to the point, it's misleading since it includes self-defense and police: when we talk of a gun homicide problem we hardly have in mind a woman defending against a rapist, or a cop taking out an armed robber.

Canada: Moore's number is correct for 1999, a low point, but he ignores some obvious differences.

Bias. I wanted to talk about fabrication, not about bias, but I've gotten emails asking why I didn't mention that Switzerland requires almost all adult males to have guns, but has a lower homicide rate than Great Britain, or that Japanese-Americans, with the same proximity to guns as other Americans, have homicide rates half that of Japan itself. (And, after posting this, got an email saying that Switzerland doesn't require all adult males to own guns -- not everyone is in the national militia. Here's an encyclopedia reference to their system. 36% of entire population is enrolled in the militia -- which must mean a very great part of the adult male population, " All of Swiss society celebrates shooting, and skill with the rifle. For example, each year Zurich shuts down a whole day for its "Boys' Shooting Festival."" Sounds like a plan to me.)

And, oh, yes, there is an extremely interesting paper by Canadian criminologist Gary Mauser, presented at a colloquium in, appropriately enough, the Tower of London, and addressing international comparisons of firearms laws and firearm crime rates. I highly recommend reading, if you're interested in serious research rather than Moore's flashing numbers. Okay, they're mentioned, now back to our regularly scheduled program.

Actually, international comparisons lead to some interesting points. Here's a webpage which gives worldwide homicide rates. The U.S. comes in at 23rd place. It only made the list by edging out Armenia and Bulgaria. Its former rival as a superpower, the states of the former Soviet Union, absolutely flatten it in this competition. Russia has four times the US rate. Ukraine and Estonia have twice its rate. Even Poland ranks higher. South Africa's showing is ten times the US rate! Hmm-- another point from a different section of that site. In rape rates per 1000 population, the US ranks ninth, at .32, just ahead of Iceland and Papua New Guinea. Canada is fifth, at .75, over double the US rate, and Australia is third with .80.

SLM3

bowlingfortruth.com

mooreexposed.com

Thank you, these are exactly the type of objective, truth seeking sources I was looking for. Bang up job.

So, what you're saying is you really didn't have a source beyond these fanatics who made it their mission to discredit Moore at all costs. You made a blanket statement and then led me on a wild goose hunt through the FBI, the Office of Justice Programs, then two sites based solely on attacking Moore. Basically you decided to pass something off as fact and THEN scrambled to find a site that fit what you said. You'll please excuse me if I take everything you say with a grain of salt.

8,000, 9,000, 11,000...do you see my point about focusing on the wrong issues? So if Moore was a couple thousand off on his number, does that negate the greater point he's trying to make? People focus on things like what one particular Lockheed Martin plant was producing at one given time (missing the whole freaking point of discussing what is indeed the world's largest weapons maker) instead of asking the big questions. Why do Americans kill each other so much more than any other Western state?

Like saying Australian numbers range from 64-123 really makes a huge difference in the grand scheme of what we should be talking about. What a waste of time.

If Moore was so out to deceive us, I wonder why he didn't go with the 15,000+ rate. Was he just being sort of deceitful? Quasi-deceitful? Do you really know his motive or are you going to let mooreexposed.com tell you?


SLM3

debaser

At least we know the world is safe from communism as long as you are around...

__________________

Endymon32

So you have a critisicm about those sities other than slaming them for existing? You are basically saying that Moore is allowed to have an agenda, and those sites are wrong BECAUSE they have an agenda.
I talked about Moore's incorrect facts, and you went after the websites themselves, just as Moore himself does with his "whacko Attacko" articles.

I challenge you to find error in those sites. But that is tough as then you have to acutall do something rather than issue proclaimations and condemnations without reading. But thats what I expect from Moore fans.

And you made no point at showing that anyting i said was incorrect other than saying that its ok or Moore to have an agenda, and not anyone else. Pretty hypocritical of you.