Sparhawk

That's flawed reasoning, Seaver. Should Reagan then not take credit for the equipment that was designed before he became president?

And once again, The drawdown in numbers started in the first Bush presidency, as a consequence of the Cold War. The statement on training is a fallacy, however. There was no significant difference between the first Bush and Clinton in terms of training.

__________________
"In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work. It's incredibly hard. It's - and it's hard work. I understand how hard it is. I get the casualty reports every day. I see on the TV screens how hard it is. But it's necessary work. We're making progress. It is hard work."

Boo

Google before posting please. There are numerous articles on Stop Loss between 1992 and 2000.

I beg to differ. Clinton did use stop loss.

http://www.defenselink.mil/news/May1...9_9905211.html

Stop Loss Program Provides Authority to Keep Key People


By Jim Garamone

American Forces Press Service


WASHINGTON -- When President Clinton mobilized 33,102 reservists
April 27, he also quietly gave the services the little-used
right to keep members in uniform past their normal separation or
retirement dates.

The presidential authority, called the Stop Loss program,
suspends laws related to military retirements, separations and
promotions. The president delegates it downward to the service
secretaries through Defense Secretary William S. Cohen.

Stop Loss can only be initiated after a declaration of war,
during a national emergency or when members of any reserve
component are involuntarily called to active duty. Further, the
authority lasts only as long as the period for which reserve
component members have been involuntarily activated.

Stop Loss helps the services maintain the critical skills they
need to support continuous military operations such as NATO's
ongoing Allied Force. The services may implement Stop Loss
according to their own missions and personnel requirements, and
they can modify their plans, adding and deleting career
specialties as circumstances change.

While they could conceivably apply Stop Loss across their entire
active and reserve spectrum, the services will usually quickly
establish a list of critical specialties and limit the impact to
as few skills and people as possible. For instance, the last
time Stop Loss was invoked, during the 1991 Gulf War, it
affected only service members engaged in theater operations,
those supporting the operations and other critical skills.

When Clinton's April 27 order activated Stop Loss, Air Force
officials said they would use it, but they've announced no
further details since, such as how many airmen might be
affected. "We want to do this as soon as we can, but we don't
want to make an announcement and then have to go back and change
it," one service official said.

The other services said they would not use Stop Loss, though
Navy officials reserved the right to change their minds.

Stop Loss permits the services to exceed promotion quotas set
for each grade, but none expects to invoke this aspect in the
current situation.

Stop Loss prohibits the reassignment of reserve component
members into resource pools of lesser availability. They can't
be shifted, for instance, from the Selected Reserve to the
Individual Ready Reserve.

There are exemptions. Disability retirements and separations and
separations for cause are unaffected. Other Stop Loss exemptions
include hardship, discharge for pregnancy, discharge in lieu of
court-martial, and high-year-of-tenure retirements and
separations

There were very few exemptions, even when the personnel were not deploying forces.

IMNSHO.

Bill Clinton was a great demoralizer for the military. It was the worst 8 years during my military service. He left us feeling cheap and needing a shower.

Your buddies need to take the war with the bennies. I hear it all the time "When I joined I didn't EXPECT to have to go to war" I just wanted the school.
-Don't join the girl scouts and expect to NOT sell cookies.-

I work with the Air Force and Army daily and moral here is stressed by deployments but not negative. I do worry that the soldiers returning with major injuries may cause some issues.

E-7 Air Force retiree, 1981 - 2002

__________________
Back button again, I must be getting old.

debaser

When you enlist, you enlist for 8 years. The actual time you will spend on active duty is determined by your contract. The remaining years are spent in what is known as the IRR (Inactive Ready Reserve), from which you may be called up at the governments convenience. All a stop-loss is doing is keeping people active during their IRR time. It is perfectly legal, yet often misunderstood.

Stop losses happen all the time, usually for a particular MOS when recruiting numbers drop. A higher bonus is then offered for that MOS, and when recruits are found for the positions, the soldiers are allowed to ETS as normal.

__________________

Seaver

huh I missed this earlier....

Iraq and Afghanistan... 2 wars at once. Seems like justification indeed.

Endymon32

Nice post Boo, completly destroying Superbelts " But Clinton didnt...insert anti bush comment" argument that often employes.

Carlo Marx

First of all Debaser the IRR and Stop Loss are completely different because the IRR could call up former service members that have already transitioned to civilian life. There are seperate DOD regulations that grant this authority. You can also be kept on active duty after your time IRR would have ended under stop loss. Stop Loss affects perssonnel who are retiring as well and they have definatly served over 8 years.

Second, the stop loss that began this thread was inacted on units with deployment orders and not specific miltary occupational specalties. The service members who are affected by this Stop Loss will deploy with there units and remain with them unitl they redploy and then 90 days after that they will be allowed to seperate.




Boo You are absolutely right

US Army
Forward Deployed

__________________
I saw the greatest minds of my generation destroyed by madness, starving hysterical naked,

dragging themselves throught the negro streets at dawn looking for an angry fix,

angleheaded hipsters burning for the ancient heavenly connection to the starry dynamo in the machinery of the night,

Howl for Carl Solomon by Allen Ginsberg

debaser

I have never heard of a stop loss affecting someone beyond IRR time, and certainly not beyond retirement. Although I do not know the actual reg regarding Stop Loss, the above was the basic gist given me by our regimental S-1. I will ask for clarification when I see him on Monday. Also IRR time is not mitigated after the initial enlistment, subsequent re-enlistments "bump" the IRR time.

I was speaking about previous non-combat stop losses.

I notice you are deployed, are you OCONUS or holding down the fort here stateside?

__________________

Sparhawk

Holy hell, I've never heard that one before. Do you have any linkable info on that? I was under the impression that re-enlisting supercedes your IRR time, so if you re-up for 4-6, you're cancelling that IRR commitment with active-duty service.

__________________
"In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work. It's incredibly hard. It's - and it's hard work. I understand how hard it is. I get the casualty reports every day. I see on the TV screens how hard it is. But it's necessary work. We're making progress. It is hard work."

debaser

I'll look for a link. That is the common impression, but the IRR is bumped. For example, I sign for a 3x5, then I re-up at the end of my initial 3 years for 3 more. Once I am done with my 6 years active, I still have the 5 years of IRR hanging over my head. As I said, I will check all of this on Monday with our S-1. I'm just a trigger-puller, so my knowlege of this is strictly second hand.

__________________

Carlo Marx

I'm not going to lie and tell you that I know because I don't. However I believe that IRR time is mitigated by subsequent re-enlistments. That the 8 years all soldiers are contractually obligated to under their intial enlistment can be served on active duty under a second enlistment and this service would fullfill the intial 8 year contract as well as the second enlistment. I am trying to find a good source to verify if this correct.

__________________
I saw the greatest minds of my generation destroyed by madness, starving hysterical naked,

dragging themselves throught the negro streets at dawn looking for an angry fix,

angleheaded hipsters burning for the ancient heavenly connection to the starry dynamo in the machinery of the night,

Howl for Carl Solomon by Allen Ginsberg

Carlo Marx

When you enter the armed forces of the United States you inccur an intial service obligation of no less than 6 years and no more than 8 years. This service obligation can be met by spending 4 years on active duty and 4 in the IRR or any combination. It can also be met by serving 8 years on active duty. Re-enlistments do mitigate time spent in the IRR. After 8 years of service regardless of how it is broken down service members have completed their intial service obligation.

Refrences US Code, Title 10 (DOD) Chapter 31 & Chapter 1005.

Here's a great link to Title 10 of the US Code if you want to check:

http://uscode.house.gov/title_10.htm

I also found out a lot of other cool info by researching this question.

Service Members activated in the IRR can only be kept on active duty for a period not to exceed 24 months.

Service Members extended on active duty "Stop-Loss" can be kept on active duty until the war or national emergency is declared over + 6 months.

For the IRR to be activated the Secretary of Defense must appoint a council to determine who to recall the have to consider time all ready spent in service, family obligations, personal hardship. Each postion that is to be filled by an IRR perssonnel must be considered by the council seperately. ie rank, mos.

__________________
I saw the greatest minds of my generation destroyed by madness, starving hysterical naked,

dragging themselves throught the negro streets at dawn looking for an angry fix,

angleheaded hipsters burning for the ancient heavenly connection to the starry dynamo in the machinery of the night,

Howl for Carl Solomon by Allen Ginsberg

Sparhawk

Great stuff, thanks Carlo Marx

__________________
"In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work. It's incredibly hard. It's - and it's hard work. I understand how hard it is. I get the casualty reports every day. I see on the TV screens how hard it is. But it's necessary work. We're making progress. It is hard work."