Strange Famous

I don't think it is pointless. America and Britain are divided countries, and the significant majority have no voice. When you live in a country where your leader can take you into a protracted and inhumane war, for economic reasons, against the will of the vast majority of people, this is not liberal democracy.

It is important for people to protest, to say "not in my name", these crimes you commit at the moment I am powerless to prevent, but I refuse to allow you to lie and say you do them in my name...

A great many people now are rejecting the government and the capitalist infrastructure that supports and guides it, utterly... they have seen that war and death are nothing but another market, another profit stream to Bush, Blair, and his oil companu cronies...

However powerless the anger of the youth and the majority of all working people may seem against the huge state military machine, it is not powerless, their rejection of this phoney war and the men that made it is another knife in the heart of the dying capitalist state.

SO we must tell them, we will never forgive you, we will never recognise you're power over us again, you have forfitted it, you are not fit to wield you, you are criminals and pirates and we reject you.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

mrbuck12000

I am not against govt....in fact i work for a county govt. I am against a govt that is not looking out for the average citizen but is looking out for itself.

yo.....kiwiman...i will vote and hopefully everyone here does. But hopefully its a fair election and the right man will win and hopefully it doesn't come down to the state where the wrong mans brother is governor.

debaser

Right and wrong are decided by the electorate. The SC decided that the election was legal, so it was. I don't like the man either, but he is our president. The past is prologue, fix it in the next election. Just be aware that whining about the last one will just push people away from your way of thinking.

Every time I ask someone to tell me about their favorite democrat all I get is a boatload of vitriol about Bush. Are we really just choosing the lesser of two evils again?

If something doesn't turn around soon in the Democratic primary I will have to just vote third party, in hopes that eventually a candidate will get the required 5%...

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Rekna

Do you really think the US went into Iraq for oil? Let's see we are spending 86 billion on rebuilding Iraq, the cost for us to go in there wasn't cheap either. It would be a pretty silly investment to spend 100's of billions of dollars to get less than that in oil. If we were there for oil why haven't oil prices dropped? You conspirocy therioists are great for a laugh now and then.

Do you really think capitalism is the source of war throughout the world? Why is it the most violent periods of our time filled with constant wars occured when not a single capitalisitic nation existed? As William Wallace if he went to war because of capitalism. He wen't to war to gain freedom! Most wars that have been fought have either been to gain power or gain freedom. To suggest the capitalism causes wars is luadacris.

The cause of the wars that we have today come from ignorance and hatered being taught. It is simple to convince childern of things that aren't true. Breeding hatered is something that can be done very easy, just look at the KKK.

Make a list of all the wars and fighting that have occured post cold war era and tell me what most of them have in common. A majority of them are centered in the middle east and not all of them involve the US (Pakistan/India). This is because hatred is being taught throughout the schools of many of these nations or being passed down through the generations. In fact many nations in the middle east are working to change this. Kuaite just annonced it is rewriting all of it's text books to counteract this problem. It takes time to curve hatered and it takes a lot of money. The first step is to elliminate the ignorance and then teach tollerance.

Blaming all the world problems on the US is ignoranant. Just as saying they are completly guilt free. "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone". I can't stand the people who always take the simplistic answer of it is the US's fault. This is simalar to parents who blame their kids violonce on voilent TV. The TV may not help but it is not the source of the problem, the source is the parent themselfs.

The theories that people are comming up with these days are silly. "The US created Saddam" no the US may have helped him along somewhat but so did a lot of other nations, a correct statement would say "The world created Saddam". The same goes for OBL.

The notion that the US is after oil in Iraq is also along the same lines, it is far to simplisitic to be the truth. The ammount of money the US is spending alone should show you it isn't there for oil. If you want to see who was there for oil look at the countries that had the huge oil deals and wanted to keep Saddam in power.

The US has lead the way for freedoms and rights for the world many times. Ideally the whole would would be a free world but this i fear will not happen during my lifetime. Instead people will be oppressed by their government and kept in backwards nations because the dictators in power only care about keeping themselfs in power.

Endymon32

Nice post Rekna

Strange Famous

I would be very surprised if the books do not show America taking more wealth from Iraq than they put into the "enterprise".

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

debaser

That will be very difficult, based upon how much the endeavor has cost us to date (since 1991)...

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Rekna

Yes don't forget the cost of troops, ammunition, mobilization, intelligence, ect. Ever look at the cost of the munitions alone?

Strange Famous

one has to speculate to accumulate I presume.

Empire building has never been cheap.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

kiwiman

No amount of facts or anything people say is going to make you change your mind, is it Strange Famous?

Strange Famous

It is the facts as I see them that have shaped my opinions. This war is wrong, that is my opinion - to conduct a war in this way and for the reasons we have is shameful, that is the way I feel.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

kiwiman

Oh, ok.

Mojo_PeiPei

The facts as you want to see them. You've been proven wrong on just about ever alley that you explored to Bush/America bash here. Its people like you that give liberals a bad name. I mean get fucking serious, you even have Debaser here chiming in against you and "leaning" in favor of Bush, I thought I'd never see the day. I think its shameful that people like you would sit around and do nothing when evil tyrants are breaking international that you "communist" ULTRA-liberals are so keen too. Open your eyes and grow a spine please.

__________________
To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

smooth

Your argument doesn't do much to contradict the claim that our actions are directed at securing oil interests.

First, particular oil corporations will be reaping the profits. The tax payers, as a whole, are funding the war process. In fact, this is the first time in history that taxes (mostly paid by the wealthy, but disproportionately affecting the non-wealthy) have been lowered while we shift into wartime development and actions. Based on this, the argument is that a few are, or will be, benefitting from the profits paid for by the many. This is being illustrated by your evidence. The 89 billion dollars is coming out of public coffers into the pockets of wealthy individuals in corporations.

Second, securing oil interests won't lead to cheaper gas prices. What incentive would oil corporations have to lower prices simply because they have more lucrative contracts? They will reap more profit. In fact, it seems that those securing rights to lucrative oil contracts would be most supported by right-leaning capitalists for their initiative--not that those people would demand a return on the public investment. I find this odd. In all other instances capitalists claim that they should reapn profit because they bear the brunt of the risk during the investment phase. Here, however, the US public is bearing the brunt--if Iraq doesn't work out, we eat shit--but we don't expect to see any return on our investment. This debate was already squelched in Congress when they decided not to require Iraq pay back the money being spent (the corporations sure don't have to reduce their profit, however).

I would also point out that oil is provided from various groups that act to control both production and distribution of oil into the market. Even assuming sufficient market forces would compel corporations to fluctuate their prices when a substantial reduction in their bottom line occurs, how would you envision this to occur in a controlled market environment?

In sum, the public is paying the costs while wealthy individuals are or will be reaping the rewards. The initial monetary layout is irrelevant to their profit margin and can't be counted as evidence that we aren't acting out of economic interest for those few corporations and their CEOs.

Once corporations secure lower costs of oil sources and production, they will achieve a higher profit margin. They won't lower their prices and "pass the savings to the consumer." The absence of lower prices (although, I will point out that our pump prices have steadily dropped throughout the past year, so your premise is inaccurate) at gas pumps can't be used as evidence that we aren't acting out of economic interest for those few corporations and their CEOs.

smooth

What are you babbling about?

Given that he is one of the few communists on this board and that almost every post in reponse to his carries some acerbic barb, it appears his spine is holding just fine.

Endymon32

His spine is fine, but everyone of his facts were wrong.

mrbuck12000

Wow i haven't been here for about 24 hours and i would say that despite a few goof balls in the crowd, this has been a pretty good discussion.
I was reading the post by rekna on my way thru and wanted to start typing back to him/her, but smooth already had it completed my sentence. I just want the war to stop. but then maybe we all do.

mr b

__________________
"There's an old saying in Tennessee -- I know it's in Texas, it's probably in Tennessee --that says, fool me once, shame on ... shame on you. Fool me ... You can't get fooled again." - G.W. Bush quoted by the Baltimore Sun - Oct 6, 2002