Bush about to give 15 billion dollars to Africa to fight aids - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

charlesesl · 04-30-2003, 08:39 PM

Finally Bush did something good to the world.
Personally, i think this is a great idea. This money could be used to teach africians about safe sex in prevention of the spread of aids.
However i think this amount is still too little considering US is the richest country in the world and they wasted 70 billion on war obviously they should give more money to africains.

niccoli · 04-30-2003, 08:54 PM

Wow! 15 billion dollars and we still have homeless people walking the streets, an economy that is just starting to hopefully turn around, school systems that could use help, a social security system on the verge of extinction and no national healthcare....nice to know we can help 3rd world countries out with more money than many nations have for a GNP just to fight aids! Sorry...just my opinion, I'm not attacking you I just have to disagree.

BBtB · 04-30-2003, 09:57 PM

Not to sound jaded or anything but what the hell do we owe africa? I mean beyond what Niccoli said even. Course I am just against the whole... semi randomly giving people gobs of money they didn't do anything to earn. Unless of course they decide to do that to me someday. Then I will of course take the check and be happy.

phredgreen · 04-30-2003, 10:02 PM

woo! yay! let's send assloads of money off to foriegn countries while our own people continue to be unemployed and our economy continues to decline! wow! what a great fucking idea!

bush is great at starting wars. but when it comes to running his own fucking counrty, he sucks bigtime.

Loki · 04-30-2003, 10:51 PM

hm, i thought the economy was recovering in America again? or has it stopped recovering already? =/

It is a good thing for Bush to donate such a large sum of money towards a noble cause, but i wonder what will be done with the money? Ideally it should be used for education and free condoms, or something like that.

World's King · 04-30-2003, 10:57 PM

Maybe he thought we were sending AIDS to Africa.

You never know.

frenik · 05-01-2003, 08:26 AM

This bill has bipartisan support, touted by Democrats and Republicans alike. $15 billion isn't a gigantic amount in the grand scheme of the economy. It could go to some use in our country, I'm sure, but the AIDs epidemic in Africa (and many other countries around the world) needs serious attention, and our economy will recover without the help of this 15 bil.

A little perspective: According to the Bill Gates Net Worth Page, which calculates Bill Gates' net worth based on the value of Microsoft's stock and the amount of stock Gates owns, Bill Gates net worth is $30.82 billion.

edit: The House is discussing this right now (may 1, 12:30 noon) on C-SPAN

maximusveritas · 05-01-2003, 08:53 AM

I think its great that the President is putting some money where his mouth is. Its also good that he is compromising on his position that all aid should go to programs that promote abstinence first.

Of course, most conservative lawmakers aren't even compassionate enough to do that:
Conservatives threaten to stall Bush's AIDS plan

Quote:

"If the White House tells millions of pro-family voters that they're not interested in seriously promoting our values in the formation of U.S. policy in Africa, then that will greatly undermine the support for the White House and for the U.S. Congress" among conservatives, said Rep. Mike Pence, an Indiana Republican. "I really do believe this is a watershed vote."

Pence and other conservative House members are pushing for adoption today of amendments that would require that a third of the funding for AIDS prevention be devoted to abstinence-until-marriage counseling.

The anti-AIDS initiative "is a huge new program," said Rep. Joseph R. Pitts, the Pennsylvania Republican offering one of the amendments. "We don't want to see this become a funding mechanism for the left."

...

Another such provision omitted from the AIDS measure is a prohibition - known as "Mexico City" language, after the city where President Ronald Reagan first proposed it - on allowing any of the program's funding to go to groups that counsel abortion.

If the compromises continue, Pence said, "the word 'betrayal' will begin to be heard in the halls of the conservative movement."

The White House and House Republican leaders were working hard yesterday to drum up support for the conservatives' amendments, but Bush has let it be known that he would stand behind his proposal whether or not it emerged from Congress with strong abstinence provisions.

Liquor Dealer · 05-01-2003, 01:29 PM

I really don't understand the position some of you are taking on this issue. Doing anything other than everything that is humanly possible to eliminate AIDS is a total no brainer. Some of you seem to be more concerned about SARS thatn you are AIDS. We live in a country that can afford to do just about anything it chooses to do. We have the potential of generating enormous wealth when it is necessary for us to do so. AIDS is a threat that is bigger than any threat ever faced by mankind. It matters not where you live. It matters not your lifestyle. It matters not your socio-economic status. AIDS can reach out and touch us all. Don't geve me the crap about needing to help those who are homeless and....... We have more than adequate programs to help those who truly cannot help themselves - the problem is that there a thousand who choose not to help themselves for every one that honestly cannot. So long as papers are full of jobs that are going unfilled don't give me whining stories about these poor helpless people. Tell them to get a damn job! If they tell you there are none e-mail me and I'll send you a damn newspaper. End of rant.

The_Dude · 05-01-2003, 01:37 PM

let's worry about the deficit first.

let's tackle then, then get a surplus, and then give it away.

this is another one of his "moral callings"

Liquor Dealer · 05-01-2003, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by The_Dude
let's worry about the deficit first.

let's tackle then, then get a surplus, and then give it away.

this is another one of his "moral callings"

Deficit - money owed oneself. Problem?

frenik · 05-01-2003, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by The_Dude
this is another one of his "moral callings"

Why do I get the feeling that if this was any president other than Bush, you'd be praising him up and down, and starting a petition to nominate him for the Nobel Prize? As I said in my previous post, $15 billion would hardly make a dent in our recovering economy, and is better used to help FIGHT AIDS in Africa, where 28.5 million people are living with AIDS, and 3.5 million died in 2001. This is a "liberal" cause if I've ever heard one. This is a continent where in some areas it is believed that having intercourse with a virgin cures the disease, and that AIDS is inflicted by witches. This $15 bil will do a world of good over there.

edit: number was wrong.. 28.5 mil living with aids not 3.5

Mr. Mojo · 05-01-2003, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by The_Dude
let's worry about the deficit first.

let's tackle then, then get a surplus, and then give it away.

this is another one of his "moral callings"

A surplus means you were over taxed. The Gov't should never run a surlplus...
If the fools in DC do have a surplus, you can bet on them finding things to spend it on. More social projects means more of Big Gov't sticking its face in your business. You think its bad now?! Imagine a few extra billion lying there waiting for the jackals to get their paws on it.
Deficits spending <i>should</i> curb gov't waste and growth. They should get by on all the money they get. When was the last time we had a pure budget cut? All we ever get is restrictions on growth. Raising a project 1% instead of 2% is NOT a cut.
How does having a federal deficit affect you? I'm sure we all have credit card debit. What does it do to you? It makes you, hopefully, budget yourself better.

$15 Billion for Africa. Great liberal cause, and nobody supports the Pres, cause no matter what he does – your going to hate him. Just say it and get it over with.

The problem is, like all cause like this, the money is not going to be use correctly.

forgotten_dream · 05-01-2003, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by frenik
Why do I get the feeling that if this was any president other than Bush, you'd be praising him up and down, and starting a petition to nominate him for the Nobel Prize?

I have to agree with you there. When Bush launched the war on Iraq, people were shouting "Why not send the money to africa to fight aids?!?" Now he's doing that, and that's not good enough either? Quit your whining people. Bush is doing what he was elected to do-- do what the majority of the american people want. And like what he's doing or not, that's what I would expect him to do.

Dilbert1234567 · 05-01-2003, 03:52 PM

first of all teh 15 billion is bull shit (sorry bout that)

if you look deep into the 15 billion for AIDS the president stated in his State of the Union Address, you can find that only 10% is direct Aid, the remaining 90% is funneled through US agencies, where it is only accessible to American abstinence-only groups, that campaigning against condoms, which is the most efective way to stop the spread. you cant seriusly expect people to stop haveing sex.

His plan almost compleatly ignors the Global Fund to Fight AIDS, Tuberculosis, and Malaria (they get $10%)

Further, the money is only for countries that do not provide Abortion services to there people, contries that do get no money

"On July 22, the administration ended support for the U.N. Population Fund, citing activities in China where the administration claimed birth control is coercive even though a State Department fact-finding mission in May found no evidence of that. Thirty-four million dollars in aid was withdrawn, leading to cancellation of programs in Africa to, among other things, fight AIDS and help pregnant women. More than 180 countries received no aid from the U.S. for actions of the International Planned Parenthood Federation's work because those countries provide access to abortion even though U.S. money is not used for those services. Thus, the words sprinkled among the applause during the State of the Union applause fest were surprising at a minimum. In the few minutes he presumed to interrupt the applause, Mr. Bush announced that AIDS was a real problem for the developing world. "

"At that meeting, the American delegation was pitted against Asian countries over, among other things, sex education and methods of birth control. The American delegation tried to win support from other nations at the conference to change language in the 1994 Cairo agreement that called for controlling population growth by improving health care and education, fighting poverty and AIDS and expanding legal rights for women. The Bush administration wanted language inserted into the international agreement that would promote "natural" family-planning methods, including abstinence. The administration objected to promoting condom use among adolescents to prevent AIDS on the theory that it encourages underage sex. Many of the things to which it was opposed were things that, if implemented would, among other things, help curtail the spread of AIDS. "

Source

lastly:

"If this legislation passes through Congress unchanged, poor and rural communities that have only one clinic would have to build a new one in order to separate their AIDS work from their family-planning work -- an unlikely development, given the depressed economies in the targeted African and Caribbean countries. Or they would have to shut down their family-planning clinic altogether in order to qualify for the AIDS money."

"The word in Washington is that some congressional Republicans will introduce riders to the AIDS bill in the House today. Expect one to call for removing all references to condoms."

Source

The_Dude · 05-01-2003, 04:38 PM

i knew there was a catch.

exactly what i meant by moral calling.

he's trying to do god's work, i bet god told him to do this.

money is only avaliable to countries that do NOT provide abortion services....now that's the gwb i know.

MSD · 05-01-2003, 05:27 PM

My problem is the fact that this money will come right back to price-gouging US drug companies who sell life-saving meds for 15 times their manufacturing costs.

Liquor Dealer · 05-01-2003, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by The_Dude
i knew there was a catch.

exactly what i meant by moral calling.

he's trying to do god's work, i bet god told him to do this.

money is only avaliable to countries that do NOT provide abortion services....now that's the gwb i know.

Dude! I'd almost bet big bucks that George W Bush would say he's really glad that you're a Texan too! Course - you know how he lies....it makes no difference who tells him to do what - if it is right it is right. Just because he isn't hugging a tree doesn't make him evil personified.

forgotten_dream · 05-01-2003, 10:20 PM

And what exactly is so wrong with these abstinence only programs? Condoms aren't 100% effective, and abstinence is. And aids will still kill you EVERY SINGLE TIME. That's all the persuasion I need. I mean think about is, if a person gave you a pistol and told you "Hey, lets play some russian roullette" would you do it? I mean hell, you have a one in 6 chance. Even if you bump your odds up to a condoms, which works about... 94% of the time? So lets say you play 10 times, and 9 times the bullet is just a blank. I STILL wouldn't do that. Neither would any sensible person. Why? Because that one bullet will still fuck you up. ANY time you have sex when you have AIDS, you're taking a very big revolver, spinning the chamber, and putting it to your head. And if these people can't get with the program, I say send the money elsewhere. Africans just can't go without nailing a prostitute once in a while? Fine. But I'm not paying for their condom, and i'm not paying for their medication when they've lost to the odds.

KillerYoda · 05-01-2003, 10:29 PM

Is there a way we can invade AIDS?

Seriously though, they said on a BBC news show a while back that there's a myth in Africa that virgins can cure AIDS. Supposedly guys with AIDS raping virgins, then them having kids is one of the main reasons AIDS is rising so quickly there.

AIDS is an epidemic and all, but I think as a disease it gets 20 times more funding and publicity than heart disease, cancer or other terminal illnesses. We should advise Africans on how to prevent things through educational programs, not throw billions of dollars at them. I'm pretty sure there are non-profit organizations out there that would gladly attempt to tackle the problem rather than us using our tax dollars for other counties.

forgotten_dream · 05-01-2003, 10:38 PM

Exactly. Would free condoms solve this problem? Nope. They need education. And I think you're right Yoda, it would be easy enough for non-profit groups to help, but I think that considering the enormous size of this problem (we're talking about an entire -continent-

) funding will still be neccesary. I say send funding, but use it for education, not more sex.

drewg · 05-02-2003, 04:04 AM

Killer Yoda is right. Education is will solve this problem. But you need money to fund the requiered extencive educational program, and most African countries are too poor to fund them themselves.

I think it's good that Bush and his boys have found something sensible to spend their money on.

magic_hat · 05-02-2003, 08:34 AM

as long as we are spending money on shit other than war...im for it. Look beyond your rash ethnocentrism and try to imagine what people think of the U.S, we need to do more stuff like this. also remember that third world nations are plentiful sources of natural resources....one reason why we do help these countries is for our own benefit in the long run...so to say "I dont see why we should be helping Africa" is ignorant.

Dilbert1234567 · 05-13-2003, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by forgotten_dream
Exactly. Would free condoms solve this problem? Nope. They need education. And I think you're right Yoda, it would be easy enough for non-profit groups to help, but I think that considering the enormous size of this problem (we're talking about an entire -continent- ) funding will still be neccesary. I say send funding, but use it for education, not more sex.

you are not going to get a contenent to stop having sex. sex is the only fun thing to do over there that is free, the nations of afreica (most not all) are very poor, tehy do not have luxeries like america and canada and ... sex is tehonly fun thing that they can do for free.

forgotten_dream · 05-13-2003, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dilbert1234567
you are not going to get a contenent to stop having sex. sex is the only fun thing to do over there that is free, the nations of afreica (most not all) are very poor, tehy do not have luxeries like america and canada and ... sex is tehonly fun thing that they can do for free.

Don't take this personally, and I mean this in the nicest possible way, but that one of the most ignorant things I've ever heard. If you look at the problem of AIDS in Africa, a great deal of it is spread by prostitution. Which, by definition, is not free.
While I concede the point that we likely won't be able to keep all of Africa from having sex, the point of education will be to keep the numbers low enough that the spread of AIDS won't be moving as fast as it has been.

The_Dude · 05-13-2003, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by forgotten_dream
Exactly. Would free condoms solve this problem? Nope. They need education. And I think you're right Yoda, it would be easy enough for non-profit groups to help, but I think that considering the enormous size of this problem (we're talking about an entire -continent- ) funding will still be neccesary. I say send funding, but use it for education, not more sex.

wanna also send some missionaries that preach no sex till marriage?

J_T_Biggs · 05-13-2003, 03:45 PM

This all really doesn't make sense, our country is doing horrible (in numerous aspects) and we are giving $15 billion dollars away. It's a good cause, and I agree with it, but the timing is a little off. I can only hope that this doesnt turn into a missionary/propaganda activity.

forgotten_dream · 05-13-2003, 03:47 PM

Not really. Missionaries would make this a moral issue rather than a practical one, plus we would have to send a representative of every religion in the US plus atheists if we did that.
The point is that this is a disease that is spreading, like the SARS epedemic in Asia for example. Given the option of wearing one of those face masks and quarantining people, the quarantine is safer. No contact = No chance of exposure and contamination.

iccky · 05-13-2003, 04:36 PM

Quote:

This all really doesn't make sense, our country is doing horrible (in numerous aspects)

No offense, but compared to every country in Africa our country is doing damn good. If our economy shirks a quarter and people can't by a second SUV for the family we start crying bloody murder. Over there, pretty much the entire continent is at war, they're mostly ruled by corrupt tyrants, and in some countries %25 of the population has aids.

The developed world rapes Africa for its recources, we should give a little bit back. I can't understand why some of the liberals on the board aren't for this. Howard Zinn said we should become a "Humanitarian Superpower". Anytime Bush does something that goes along with Zinn I'll agree with him. The next democratic president will change the rules, and the clinics will probablly be physically seperated by a tarp. I don' see an inspector for USAID going to some rural clinic in the middle of Zambia.

As for the whole condom thing, condoms work %99 of the time, Abstenance doesn't. Why? Cause people aren't gonna stop having sex. I sure as hell won't. Prostitutes who are doing it so they don't starve/ rape victims/ people in lust aren't gonna stop bcause theres a small chance they'll catch a disease that will kill them 10 years in the future. Give that person a package of condoms and they might live.

The_Dude · 05-13-2003, 05:59 PM

abstinence is not the solution. there is no way that US is going to educate all the people in africa about sexual diseases. this money doesnt even come close to that. most of these people are illeterate and we're going to have a hard time convincing them not to have sex.

anyway, the best thing to do is hand out condom's.

same thing we do w/ our troops stationed abroad.

Nad Adam · 05-14-2003, 12:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dilbert1234567
you cant seriusly expect people to stop haveing sex.

Maybe his plan is to give them broadband access to the Internet, that was the most efficient way of getting me to stop having sex (and any social life for that matter).

Easytiger · 05-14-2003, 12:49 AM

Damn, how many condoms are they sending over anyway?

iccky · 05-14-2003, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Maybe his plan is to give them broadband access to the Internet, that was the most efficient way of getting me to stop having sex (and any social life for that matter).

I like it

Maybe we can give them counterstrike too and stop all the wars

.

Bill O'Rights · 05-14-2003, 12:33 PM

Hooray for the Republicans. I am absolutely delighted that we have eradicated homelessness and hunger in the United States. And how about that stable and secure Social Security Program, not to mention our education system, which is second to none in the world!! And just think, the elderly have easy open access to prescription drugs, healthcare is affordable by all citizens...what?...what do you mean none of this has happened? You mean to tell me...then how on earth can we afford to send $15,000,000,000.00 to Africa? Let's ake care of our domestic problems first, <b>then</b> worry about the international ones.

iccky · 05-14-2003, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Let's ake care of our domestic problems first, then worry about the international ones.

How about a little human compassion people? These people live in a shithole that was created in large part by years of western opression and exploitation. On top of that %25 of them have Aids. How about we help them out a little and then worry about perscription drugs for seniors.

forgotten_dream · 05-14-2003, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by frenik
[B]This is a continent where in some areas it is believed that having intercourse with a virgin cures the disease, and that AIDS is inflicted by witches.

Was this caused by western opression? Or exploitation?

The bottom line is, these people don't have aids because they were "exploited". They have this disease because they are ignorant, and refuse to simply STOP HAVING SEX when it's going to KILL THEM.
The old folks that need medication, the people that are out of a job, those are the people that need our help. Once these people have been helped, then I say we go out and be the best buddy of the rest of the world.

Nad Adam · 05-14-2003, 11:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by forgotten_dream
Was this caused by western opression? Or exploitation?

The bottom line is, these people don't have aids because they were "exploited". They have this disease because they are ignorant, and refuse to simply STOP HAVING SEX when it's going to KILL THEM.
The old folks that need medication, the people that are out of a job, those are the people that need our help. Once these people have been helped, then I say we go out and be the best buddy of the rest of the world.

I aree with you on that they should get their f.ing act together and start taking responsibility. But there's another side to the problem. A divebuddy of mine was down in South Africa as a volunteer nurse in a small village and was among other things informing on safe sex and AIDS. When she had been there for 3 months and started making progress and reaching the people the president in that country (can't remember his name) went public with that there was no connection between HIV and AIDS and a lot of other completly messed up information. Who will the people belive, a female nurse in her twenties living temproray in their village or the president of their country? The only way to stop the spread of this terrible disease is to give people the gift of critical thinking and the only way to do that is to educate them.

The other aspect of it is the children who are born with the disease. They can't be blamed in anyway for the situation they are in.

But still: You can't help the people who are to ignorant to be helped, us atheists belive evolution will solve that problem.

Charlatan · 05-15-2003, 07:29 AM

Education is the key to slowing AIDS in Africa.

Abstinence is one way to slow the spead BUT it is very impractical to make this the only way. People are not going to stop having sex.

Safe(r) sex is the only way to truly slow the spead.

The 15 billion is a nice figure BUT, as expected, Bush has attached some strings.

One of his first decrees on coming into office was to recind foreign aid to those countries that allowed or promoted abortion. Imposing his moral position on other countries is just galling.

Dilbert1234567 · 05-17-2003, 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Easytiger
Damn, how many condoms are they sending over anyway?

none i belive.

_________new thought______________

on another point, we cant just use one method, i may have given the wrong immage of me earlier, we need a comprehensive program including teaching of the spread and how to avoid it, Abstenence and Condoms. not just one or the other.

04-30-2003, 08:39 PM	#1 (permalink)
charlesesl Psycho	Bush about to give 15 billion dollars to Africa to fight aids Finally Bush did something good to the world. Personally, i think this is a great idea. This money could be used to teach africians about safe sex in prevention of the spread of aids. However i think this amount is still too little considering US is the richest country in the world and they wasted 70 billion on war obviously they should give more money to africains.

04-30-2003, 09:57 PM	#3 (permalink)
BBtB ClerkMan! Location: Tulsa, Ok.	Not to sound jaded or anything but what the hell do we owe africa? I mean beyond what Niccoli said even. Course I am just against the whole... semi randomly giving people gobs of money they didn't do anything to earn. Unless of course they decide to do that to me someday. Then I will of course take the check and be happy. __________________ Meridae'n once played "death" at a game of chess that lasted for over two years. He finally beat death in a best 34 out of 67 match. At that time he could ask for any one thing and he could wish for the hope of all mankind... he looked death right in the eye and said ... "I would like about three fiddy"

04-30-2003, 10:02 PM	#4 (permalink)
phredgreen who? Location: the phoenix metro	woo! yay! let's send assloads of money off to foriegn countries while our own people continue to be unemployed and our economy continues to decline! wow! what a great fucking idea! bush is great at starting wars. but when it comes to running his own fucking counrty, he sucks bigtime. __________________ My country is the world, and my religion is to do good. - Thomas Paine

04-30-2003, 10:57 PM	#6 (permalink)
World's King Here Location: Denver City Denver	Maybe he thought we were sending AIDS to Africa. You never know. __________________ heavy is the head that wears the crown

05-01-2003, 08:26 AM	#7 (permalink)
frenik Crazy Location: blah	This bill has bipartisan support, touted by Democrats and Republicans alike. $15 billion isn't a gigantic amount in the grand scheme of the economy. It could go to some use in our country, I'm sure, but the AIDs epidemic in Africa (and many other countries around the world) needs serious attention, and our economy will recover without the help of this 15 bil. A little perspective: According to the Bill Gates Net Worth Page, which calculates Bill Gates' net worth based on the value of Microsoft's stock and the amount of stock Gates owns, Bill Gates net worth is $30.82 billion. edit: The House is discussing this right now (may 1, 12:30 noon) on C-SPAN __________________ I don't know what's worse, that I dreamed about putting my ex-girlfriend in a woodchipper, or that I woke up with an erection. - jim norton Last edited by frenik; 05-01-2003 at 08:28 AM..

04-30-2003, 08:54 PM	#2 (permalink)
niccoli Tilted Location: Denver, CO	Wow! 15 billion dollars and we still have homeless people walking the streets, an economy that is just starting to hopefully turn around, school systems that could use help, a social security system on the verge of extinction and no national healthcare....nice to know we can help 3rd world countries out with more money than many nations have for a GNP just to fight aids! Sorry...just my opinion, I'm not attacking you I just have to disagree.

04-30-2003, 10:51 PM	#5 (permalink)
Loki Psycho Location: Drifting.	hm, i thought the economy was recovering in America again? or has it stopped recovering already? =/ It is a good thing for Bush to donate such a large sum of money towards a noble cause, but i wonder what will be done with the money? Ideally it should be used for education and free condoms, or something like that.

05-01-2003, 01:29 PM	#9 (permalink)
Liquor Dealer Super Agitator Location: Just SW of Nowhere!!! In the good old US of A	I really don't understand the position some of you are taking on this issue. Doing anything other than everything that is humanly possible to eliminate AIDS is a total no brainer. Some of you seem to be more concerned about SARS thatn you are AIDS. We live in a country that can afford to do just about anything it chooses to do. We have the potential of generating enormous wealth when it is necessary for us to do so. AIDS is a threat that is bigger than any threat ever faced by mankind. It matters not where you live. It matters not your lifestyle. It matters not your socio-economic status. AIDS can reach out and touch us all. Don't geve me the crap about needing to help those who are homeless and....... We have more than adequate programs to help those who truly cannot help themselves - the problem is that there a thousand who choose not to help themselves for every one that honestly cannot. So long as papers are full of jobs that are going unfilled don't give me whining stories about these poor helpless people. Tell them to get a damn job! If they tell you there are none e-mail me and I'll send you a damn newspaper. End of rant. __________________ Life isn't always a bowl of cherries, sometimes it's more like a jar of Jalapenos --- what you say or do today might burn your ass tomorrow!!!

05-01-2003, 01:37 PM	#10 (permalink)
The_Dude The GrandDaddy of them all! Location: Austin, TX	let's worry about the deficit first. let's tackle then, then get a surplus, and then give it away. this is another one of his "moral callings" __________________ "Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Darrel K Royal

05-01-2003, 03:52 PM	#15 (permalink)
Dilbert1234567 Devils Cabana Boy Location: Central Coast CA	first of all teh 15 billion is bull shit (sorry bout that) if you look deep into the 15 billion for AIDS the president stated in his State of the Union Address, you can find that only 10% is direct Aid, the remaining 90% is funneled through US agencies, where it is only accessible to American abstinence-only groups, that campaigning against condoms, which is the most efective way to stop the spread. you cant seriusly expect people to stop haveing sex. His plan almost compleatly ignors the Global Fund to Fight AIDS, Tuberculosis, and Malaria (they get $10%) Further, the money is only for countries that do not provide Abortion services to there people, contries that do get no money "On July 22, the administration ended support for the U.N. Population Fund, citing activities in China where the administration claimed birth control is coercive even though a State Department fact-finding mission in May found no evidence of that. Thirty-four million dollars in aid was withdrawn, leading to cancellation of programs in Africa to, among other things, fight AIDS and help pregnant women. More than 180 countries received no aid from the U.S. for actions of the International Planned Parenthood Federation's work because those countries provide access to abortion even though U.S. money is not used for those services. Thus, the words sprinkled among the applause during the State of the Union applause fest were surprising at a minimum. In the few minutes he presumed to interrupt the applause, Mr. Bush announced that AIDS was a real problem for the developing world. " "At that meeting, the American delegation was pitted against Asian countries over, among other things, sex education and methods of birth control. The American delegation tried to win support from other nations at the conference to change language in the 1994 Cairo agreement that called for controlling population growth by improving health care and education, fighting poverty and AIDS and expanding legal rights for women. The Bush administration wanted language inserted into the international agreement that would promote "natural" family-planning methods, including abstinence. The administration objected to promoting condom use among adolescents to prevent AIDS on the theory that it encourages underage sex. Many of the things to which it was opposed were things that, if implemented would, among other things, help curtail the spread of AIDS. " Source lastly: "If this legislation passes through Congress unchanged, poor and rural communities that have only one clinic would have to build a new one in order to separate their AIDS work from their family-planning work -- an unlikely development, given the depressed economies in the targeted African and Caribbean countries. Or they would have to shut down their family-planning clinic altogether in order to qualify for the AIDS money." "The word in Washington is that some congressional Republicans will introduce riders to the AIDS bill in the House today. Expect one to call for removing all references to condoms." Source __________________ Donate Blood! "Love is not finding the perfect person, but learning to see an imperfect person perfectly." -Sam Keen Last edited by Dilbert1234567; 05-01-2003 at 04:08 PM..

05-01-2003, 04:38 PM	#16 (permalink)
The_Dude The GrandDaddy of them all! Location: Austin, TX	i knew there was a catch. exactly what i meant by moral calling. he's trying to do god's work, i bet god told him to do this. money is only avaliable to countries that do NOT provide abortion services....now that's the gwb i know. __________________ "Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Darrel K Royal

05-01-2003, 05:27 PM	#17 (permalink)
MSD The sky calls to us ... Super Moderator Location: CT	My problem is the fact that this money will come right back to price-gouging US drug companies who sell life-saving meds for 15 times their manufacturing costs.

05-01-2003, 10:20 PM	#19 (permalink)
forgotten_dream Psycho	And what exactly is so wrong with these abstinence only programs? Condoms aren't 100% effective, and abstinence is. And aids will still kill you EVERY SINGLE TIME. That's all the persuasion I need. I mean think about is, if a person gave you a pistol and told you "Hey, lets play some russian roullette" would you do it? I mean hell, you have a one in 6 chance. Even if you bump your odds up to a condoms, which works about... 94% of the time? So lets say you play 10 times, and 9 times the bullet is just a blank. I STILL wouldn't do that. Neither would any sensible person. Why? Because that one bullet will still fuck you up. ANY time you have sex when you have AIDS, you're taking a very big revolver, spinning the chamber, and putting it to your head. And if these people can't get with the program, I say send the money elsewhere. Africans just can't go without nailing a prostitute once in a while? Fine. But I'm not paying for their condom, and i'm not paying for their medication when they've lost to the odds. __________________ "A ouija board just works better if you've made it yourself. It's sortof like how 'Clue' is more interesting when one of you has actually killed someone."

05-01-2003, 10:29 PM	#20 (permalink)
KillerYoda The Original Emo Gangsta Location: Sixth Floor, Texas School Book Depository	Is there a way we can invade AIDS? Seriously though, they said on a BBC news show a while back that there's a myth in Africa that virgins can cure AIDS. Supposedly guys with AIDS raping virgins, then them having kids is one of the main reasons AIDS is rising so quickly there. AIDS is an epidemic and all, but I think as a disease it gets 20 times more funding and publicity than heart disease, cancer or other terminal illnesses. We should advise Africans on how to prevent things through educational programs, not throw billions of dollars at them. I'm pretty sure there are non-profit organizations out there that would gladly attempt to tackle the problem rather than us using our tax dollars for other counties. __________________ "So you're Chekov, huh? Well, this here's McCoy. Find a Spock, we got us an away team."

05-01-2003, 10:38 PM	#21 (permalink)
forgotten_dream Psycho	Exactly. Would free condoms solve this problem? Nope. They need education. And I think you're right Yoda, it would be easy enough for non-profit groups to help, but I think that considering the enormous size of this problem (we're talking about an entire -continent- ) funding will still be neccesary. I say send funding, but use it for education, not more sex. __________________ "A ouija board just works better if you've made it yourself. It's sortof like how 'Clue' is more interesting when one of you has actually killed someone."

05-02-2003, 04:04 AM	#22 (permalink)
drewg Crazy Location: Norway	Killer Yoda is right. Education is will solve this problem. But you need money to fund the requiered extencive educational program, and most African countries are too poor to fund them themselves. I think it's good that Bush and his boys have found something sensible to spend their money on.

05-02-2003, 08:34 AM	#23 (permalink)
magic_hat Tilted Location: The Altered State of Drugachusetts	as long as we are spending money on shit other than war...im for it. Look beyond your rash ethnocentrism and try to imagine what people think of the U.S, we need to do more stuff like this. also remember that third world nations are plentiful sources of natural resources....one reason why we do help these countries is for our own benefit in the long run...so to say "I dont see why we should be helping Africa" is ignorant.

05-13-2003, 03:45 PM	#27 (permalink)
J_T_Biggs Upright	This all really doesn't make sense, our country is doing horrible (in numerous aspects) and we are giving $15 billion dollars away. It's a good cause, and I agree with it, but the timing is a little off. I can only hope that this doesnt turn into a missionary/propaganda activity.

05-13-2003, 03:47 PM	#28 (permalink)
forgotten_dream Psycho	Not really. Missionaries would make this a moral issue rather than a practical one, plus we would have to send a representative of every religion in the US plus atheists if we did that. The point is that this is a disease that is spreading, like the SARS epedemic in Asia for example. Given the option of wearing one of those face masks and quarantining people, the quarantine is safer. No contact = No chance of exposure and contamination. __________________ "A ouija board just works better if you've made it yourself. It's sortof like how 'Clue' is more interesting when one of you has actually killed someone."

05-13-2003, 05:59 PM	#30 (permalink)
The_Dude The GrandDaddy of them all! Location: Austin, TX	abstinence is not the solution. there is no way that US is going to educate all the people in africa about sexual diseases. this money doesnt even come close to that. most of these people are illeterate and we're going to have a hard time convincing them not to have sex. anyway, the best thing to do is hand out condom's. same thing we do w/ our troops stationed abroad. __________________ "Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." - Darrel K Royal

05-14-2003, 12:49 AM	#32 (permalink)
Easytiger Insane Location: Tigerland	Damn, how many condoms are they sending over anyway?

05-14-2003, 12:33 PM	#34 (permalink)
Bill O'Rights will always be an Alyson Hanniganite Location: In the dust of the archives	Hooray for the Republicans. I am absolutely delighted that we have eradicated homelessness and hunger in the United States. And how about that stable and secure Social Security Program, not to mention our education system, which is second to none in the world!! And just think, the elderly have easy open access to prescription drugs, healthcare is affordable by all citizens...what?...what do you mean none of this has happened? You mean to tell me...then how on earth can we afford to send $15,000,000,000.00 to Africa? Let's ake care of our domestic problems first, <b>then</b> worry about the international ones. __________________ "I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony "Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

05-15-2003, 07:29 AM	#38 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	Education is the key to slowing AIDS in Africa. Abstinence is one way to slow the spead BUT it is very impractical to make this the only way. People are not going to stop having sex. Safe(r) sex is the only way to truly slow the spead. The 15 billion is a nice figure BUT, as expected, Bush has attached some strings. One of his first decrees on coming into office was to recind foreign aid to those countries that allowed or promoted abortion. Imposing his moral position on other countries is just galling. __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke